[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

in fact in the story we see someone who has (though they are evil (maybe by mind influence), probably because most of the primals are evil or not interested in being pets).

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Can you give an example of when this happened? Because I can only think of Belias-Egi, which is a color swap of Ifrit-Egi, no real change there.

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Originally Posted by MercuryD

Can you give an example of when this happened? Because I can only think of Belias-Egi, which is a color swap of Ifrit-Egi, no real change there.

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It's funny because Tristan doesn't get to use a greater amount of essence, he's just using the essence of an Elder Primal, which is Belias in this case and Belias is totally different than Ifrit in term of look, even if Tristan only gets a recolored Ifrit-Egi.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Yes there is something that explains it in the lore. A Primal's power level is in direct correlation with the amount of Aether amassed, more often than not via a huge amount of crystals. For our egi, it works the same. We summon them by using the essence we gained by fighting the primal as a catalyst then give they become an Aetherical Manifestation of what the primal looks in our mind, which means that they are a concentrated amount of Aether. For them to be stronger/bigger, a bigger amount of Aether would be needed which means exposure to a high amount of Aether which is a big no no due to serious side effects which includes aether sickness (poisoning).



That's already what we do. Fighting the primals imbues us with their essence, to which we transmute into the Egis.

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Originally Posted by MercuryD

Can you give an example of when this happened? Because I can only think of Belias-Egi, which is a color swap of Ifrit-Egi, no real change there.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

It's funny because Tristan doesn't get to use a greater amount of essence, he's just using the essence of an Elder Primal, which is Belias in this case and Belias is totally different than Ifrit in term of look, even if Tristan only gets a recolored Ifrit-Egi.

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Poisoning ones self for strength isn't an unheard of FF aspect (including unintentional poisonings we have quite a few characters lol).

Anyway if your point is to use lore to say we can't have it but then lore shows ways we can, then... obviously we can we just need to use these methods. Aether poising, finding rare allagan catalyst machines, ect ect. Lore does not prohibit change, and it doesn't limit them to a particular look (as Dwill has educated us, part of the process is our mind).

I was indeed referencing Belias-egi, who was a color change /and/ size change. I doubt we will be making pacts with Ascians anytime soon, but it shows change is possible in game (rather than just speculating on the info we have).

At this exact moment I'd have to agree with people using lore that we can't have a change right at this second (doesn't make sense in respect to lore); however, if people using lore as a end all be all... then obviously it isn't true. As change -can- make sense lore wise given quests to explain it (amassing massive amounts of crystals to poison ones self, special quest events, or technologies). If the comment is "I don't want to poison myself" then hey I respect opinions, but we are not factually limited to a certain look/size or ability set.

I don't know about other people asking for changes to SMN but in my mind this would be something introduced at the expansion, allowing new levels, story, and changes to take place that make sense.

Lore isn't summoner's limitation given time, the power given and aspect it appears in, and shouldn't be used as one.

Lore IS the end-all-be-all in game, if the lore doesn't agree with it then it will not be. That being said, lore can evolve. I am sure we will never see a full primal as a summon but a size increase could be a possibility sometime in the far future. Tristan summoned Belias-egi by using not only crystals, but job stones (which I would assume would have more influence being that just 1 allows us to summon). I don't really see us doing more than what the Allagans did, seeing as they invented the art and we are practicing a small portion of it.

tldr; Lore makes all the rules. Possibilities abound.

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Originally Posted by MercuryD

Lore IS the end-all-be-all in game, if the lore doesn't agree with it then it will not be. That being said, lore can evolve. I am sure we will never see a full primal as a summon but a size increase could be a possibility sometime in the far future. Tristan summoned Belias-egi by using not only crystals, but job stones (which I would assume would have more influence being that just 1 allows us to summon). I don't really see us doing more than what the Allagans did, seeing as they invented the art and we are practicing a small portion of it.

tldr; Lore makes all the rules. Possibilities abound.

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Yes I meant to say that people saying the current lore means we can't ever have a change, that wouldn't be true because the lore has allowed it. But I can see how I said it made it very unclear XD

Yeah I doubt we will get full primals as personal pets because they're just so big (and would require a lot of aether...)... But if we ever get personal limit breaks it would be neat if we could have the tier 3 (or 4 if that would exist) limit break be the primal's in the fights (last tier of course).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Yes I meant to say that people saying the current lore means we can't ever have a change, that wouldn't be true because the lore has allowed it. But I can see how how I said it made it very unclear XD

Yeah I doubt we will get full primals as personal pets because they're just so big... But if we ever get personal limit breaks it would be neat if we could have the tier 3 (or 4 if that would exist) limit break be the primal's in the fights (last tier of course).

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Lore can indeed change over the time but summoning anything greater than Egis would need a retcon which is really frown upon, though entirely within their rights.

And if my memory serves me right, job specific LB are supposed to be coming at some point in the future and the speculation is that if a Summoners uses it, it would be based of the currently used Egi's Primal form (all of this being speculation).

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Lore can indeed change over the time but summoning anything greater than Egis would need a retcon which is really frown upon, though entirely within their rights.

And if my memory serves me right, job specific LB are supposed to be coming at some point in the future and the speculation is that if a Summoners uses it, it would be based of the currently used Egi's Primal form (all of this being speculation).

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I don't think we will ever go above "essence" (egi) status either, but we can definitely change the shapes and sizes of egi's without retcon (so long as they don't overpower the originals, and we can explain the extra aether required).

Also talking about aether poisoning was the aether teleporting poison retconed? I remember in 1.0 we had a limit because of poisoning, but I don't remember how Yoshida removed that bit.. was it Atomos?

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I don't think we will ever go above "essence" (egi) status either, but we can definitely change the shapes and sizes of egi's without retcon (so long as they don't overpower the originals, and we can explain the extra aether required).

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That would be feasible to a degree but highly unlikely since Square Enix already stated they weren't going to change the Egis' appearance, back when it was a much bigger deal than it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Also talking about aether poisoning was the aether teleporting poison retconed? I remember in 1.0 we had a limit because of poisoning, but I don't remember how Yoshida removed that bit.. was it Atomos?

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It is indeed because of Atomos.

The Summoner needs to focus on Summoning and Pet aspects instead of Dot management since most of the Summoner's power is used in Summoning.

Making a Hyur sized Primals is a reasonable request.

Atlest make the egi look more realistic guess this is what they got for the next gen console more graphic details to it please.

Here\\'s a few ideas
Replace ifrit\\'s stun with a slash resistance debuff or critical chance proc (something to really make ifrit a melee\\'s best friend or something good for some burn downs) and replace the counterattack with a gap closer.
I like the ideas of specifying egi rolls.
Ifrit melee burn damage phases
Titan the tank
Garuda the caster with aoes (maybe slap contagion onto ACN or SMN)
Levi would maybe be an anti mage and silence things with ranged water and deal melee attacks?
Ramuh: god of dot
Shiva: kite\\'s best bud with heavy infliction and maybe blind?

Back to other things, maybe press summon into a single ability allowing caster to bring up class/job specific lists for their available summons. Thus allowing room to really differentiate summoner from arcanist now that 3 skills are now open, possibly a stance type to transfer stats of your character over to your pet, another one to bring out the inherent traits each primal contains as a buff to either party or to egi and SMN.
And I just ran a blank

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner needs to focus on Summoning and Pet aspects instead of Dot management since most of the Summoner's power is used in Summoning.

Making a Hyur sized Primals is a reasonable request.

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If you ask me I wouldn't want to see a human sized potato, lol. Quality over quantity if you ask me, if the design is amazing then I'm sure everyone would be ok with the current size.

Hi I just want to say i love the summoner Job, but there is just something i would love added.

EVOLUTION!

After playing Summoner, I really wish they could grow in strength & size to look more Menacing. This should be achieved through the Summoner quest line when the cap is raised by stealing more power from the Primals. Maybe fighting the hard modes to obtain the stolen power then fighting the evolved egi again to remind it who's the boss would be ideal.

http://i.imgur.com/ORmLfqI.jpg

IMGUR IMAGE LINK

STAT ALLOCATION!

I wish each Egi had points as well to allocate to stats. I find myself wishing i can give Ifrit more Strength, or even give Titan more Defense.



So yeah i love Summoner, and this thread is to give some ideas to the devs..

Please leave your ideas. :)

What would you change or add? how are you enjoying it so far?

EDIT.

http://i.imgur.com/t6hy7D5.jpg

IMGUR IMAGE LINK

http://i.imgur.com/WvJVMDg.jpg

IMGUR IMAGE LINK



Here is what i Think is ideal for the Egi. Its not big at all, and if implemented i think there should be a toggle to display Egi in sanctuaries ON/OFF.

http://i.imgur.com/aVKQqFY.jpg

IMGURE IMAGE LINK

QUOTE FROM: Engineer

More info here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...94#post1331394

Dude, just let it go.

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Originally Posted by Jediman

primal graphics on egi

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Hello, Akiza. How are you today?

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Hello, Akiza. How are you today?

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Hello Madoka*there's really a power struggle there lol

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Originally Posted by Jediman

Hello Madoka*there's really a power struggle there lol

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You will find most summoners will agree to the fact that egi don't look close to any other final fantasy avatar pets. And asking for something small such as the design won't hurt the dps.

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Originally Posted by Jediman

You will find most summoners will agree to the fact that egi don't look close to any other final fantasy avatar pets. And asking for something small such as the design won't hurt the dps.

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You, or rather the person who made the original post, (which was almost 12 months ago and seemingly don't play anymore) want the following:

- Model changes
- Larger models
- Retcon on an entire job quest line
- Reworking an entire job from the bottom up

If months of labor and testing and potentially pissing off the majority who do enjoy SMN as-is sounds small to you, you need a reality check, quick.

As for the summons looking different than their past iterations, I agree with that. In fact 3, is different from 4, different from 5, different from 6 and so on. How dare SE change SMN to something practical and not worthless in end game!

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Originally Posted by Jediman

Hi I just want to say i love the summoner Job, but there is just something i would love added.

EVOLUTION!

After playing Summoner, I really wish they could grow in strength & size to look more Menacing. This should be achieved through the Summoner quest line when the cap is raised by stealing more power from the Primals. Maybe fighting the hard modes to obtain the stolen power then fighting the evolved egi again to remind it who's the boss would be ideal.

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Dude... I LOVE IT. The pictures and ALL. I would be so happy if something like this were to happen down the line, aww man :D

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Originally Posted by Ardan

You, or rather the person who made the original post, (which was almost 12 months ago and seemingly don't play anymore) want the following:

- Model changes
- Larger models
- Retcon on an entire job quest line
- Reworking an entire job from the bottom up

If months of labor and testing and potentially pissing off the majority who do enjoy SMN as-is sounds small to you, you need a reality check, quick.

As for the summons looking different than their past iterations, I agree with that. In fact 3, is different from 4, different from 5, different from 6 and so on. How dare SE change SMN to something practical and not worthless in end game!

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I agree with you on most accounts, but let's be honest here, I can't be the only one that barely notices garuda (or the other two, but nobody uses them PFFFT) when I'm playing as the summoner. Hell I don't even care to use all of her abilities because it's such a small difference, it doesn't change anything in a fight. If they do end up rebalancing Ifrit well, great, I'd like that, but honestly I just want my summons to be interesting in general, you know, besides being there for the most important reason in the world, DPS!!! (blatant sarcasm.)

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Originally Posted by Estevo

I agree with you on most accounts, but let's be honest here, I can't be the only one that barely notices garuda (or the other two, but nobody uses them PFFFT) when I'm playing as the summoner. Hell I don't even care to use all of her abilities because it's such a small difference, it doesn't change anything in a fight. If they do end up rebalancing Ifrit well, great, I'd like that, but honestly I just want my summons to be interesting in general, you know, besides being there for the most important reason in the world, DPS!!! (blatant sarcasm.)

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Couldn't say it better myself I rather have my egi looking great and would like all my egi to have an impact in the party's.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

You, or rather the person who made the original post, (which was almost 12 months ago and seemingly don't play anymore) want the following:

- Model changes
- Larger models
- Retcon on an entire job quest line
- Reworking an entire job from the bottom up

If months of labor and testing and potentially pissing off the majority who do enjoy SMN as-is sounds small to you, you need a reality check, quick.

As for the summons looking different than their past iterations, I agree with that. In fact 3, is different from 4, different from 5, different from 6 and so on. How dare SE change SMN to something practical and not worthless in end game!

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Im not getting paid to figure it out, all i know is it should be changed to reflect a Final Fantasy Summoner, and not a Warlock. I would like a changed not copy and paste how other MMO are doing it.

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Originally Posted by Fire-Dragon-DoL

Again, the logic behind what is doing SE it's not necessary what WE want from the game, I don't expect to design the game by myself and SE do exactly it, I expect the game be changed based on what the community is asking.
Based on this topic (26 pages), I must suppose that there are A LOT of summoners not satisfact (not to mention that any summoner I've talked to in-game is completely unsatisfact of its class).

Secondary, the implementation of the BLU mage in FFXIV can be ok: melee, learning abilities from monsters. The truth is that for summoner they have chosen the worst summon implementation, the XII one (or somewhat similar).
When I summon Ifrit I feel like summoning a pokemon, not a summon.

Also, the summoner as you told feels like a "complement" to the arcanist class, I think this is definitely not ok: the description of the summoner is completely different and let you imagine a completely different thing.
That being said, Arcanist is definitely not a fun class to play: you place your pet, apply 3 debuffs and spam ruin. This repeated 'till death (of you or the mob vs you). Again, Arcanist is not weak (neither the summoner).

That being said, we have only one class with 2 jobs so the philosophy you are describing can't be confirmed in any way.
I don't expect they should completely destroy balance, I do expect they balance fun with "class balance". This is not done for arcanist (and summoner), being a really boring class in late game.
Also we were supposed to have the job, a secondary job AND the class itself which should have been useful because it had access to multiple skills. Obviously this last thing don't even exist and we have been definitely trolled with this "fake secondary skill selection" (they are pre-selected basically, for any job).

I don't expect they make something like GW2 where each class can be completely different between each spec.
I do expect job to be well designed, a change from your original class which is still supposed to be useful once they fix this terrible secondary system (they had a great idea and they threw it to wind, not using it at all).

I don't get, did you play arcanist (and summoner)? Can you really tell me << it's fun to play with arcanist >> ?
You come here with good explaination, but you don't see that basically there are a lot of people complaining because the summoner not only is really boring as it is now, but it doesn't reflect what they expected from the description (like I could have known that summoner is basically an arcanist with other graphics! The scholar is completely different).

Can you blame me for that? Really, the job description does not reflect at all what I'm doing in game.

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QUOTE FROM:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-ALLOCATION%29

"When I summon Ifrit I feel like summoning a pokemon, not a summon."


Where is the next gen graphics for egi?

yes, i owuld like it changed to reflect more on a summoner and not a pet based class like warlock in wow or spirit master in aion, for now it is exactly like those classes, maybe as someone said add evolution to a summoner or their pets and pls change the appearance they all look terrible and deformed, and for the love of god ADD SHIVA AS A SMN PET!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Jediman

Hello Madoka*there's really a power struggle there lol

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I figured, but it's always good for the soul to fight a losing battle. You keep up the fight.


I lied. You should give up already.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I figured, but it's always good for the soul to fight a losing battle. You keep up the fight.


I lied. You should give up already.

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I have never debated with a knowledgeable person except that I won the debate, and I have never debated with an ignorant person except that I lost, Fair play you can keep your DPS for summoner but at least let it look more appealing egi wise.

Real Madoka on the scene! jediman you still don't have SMN at 50, get out

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Real Madoka on the scene! jediman you still don't have SMN at 50, get out

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That's ok if you ask me, when I started talking about summoner on the forums I didn't have a lvl 50 summoner either, I just talked about what I learned from research.

Then I got to 50, and my thoughts on the class haven't changed, so it's fine :D

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Real Madoka on the scene! jediman you still don't have SMN at 50, get out

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Wait... so you mean that people can't post their opinions on a class/job unless they've lvled it all the way to lvl 50?
That's the worst piece of crap I've ever heard.

Having lvled arcanist to lvl 50 twice, once on my first character when 2.0 was released and recently on a character on another server, I can promise that there's no bloody difference in playstyle between summoner lvl 40 and lvl 50, which makes your argument invalid. If you can't come up with anything better then please go bother someone else... -.-

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

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There is a bloody difference. Every time an ability is added in between 40 and 50 SMN's rotation changes and you begin to learn how to properly use the tools you have at your disposal. Madoka and several others, (including myself) have called out on Jediman for wanting ridiculous job changes before experiencing first-hand what SMN is even like in end game.

I have Turn 9 on farm and I'll say this: it's very difficult to keep the Egi and myself alive. Not so much at the start, but once Heaven's Fall, Dive Bombs, Thermionic Beam and Lunar Dynamo come into play at a rapid pace it becomes jarring very quickly. Can you even imagine how impossibly stupid it would be to keep the Egi alive if they just increased its' size? Not only for itself, but it would impede the view of everyone else. Miss one Dive Bomb marker and it's over.

Lastly, nobody is denying anyone the right to post anything. It's, again, what they're posting for when they have no knowledge of what their class is like at 50.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

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I dont think people realise the size issue with Summons. They just want what they want despite it being bad for the game, or bad for the class. Sure Summoners in XI were cool looking, and they were ultimately usless in any real endgame content. Is that what we want here? A cool looking class nobody wants along?

I for one like the Summoner just how it is, and i think most people do too. These people that keep bitching for changes (and its the same people over and over) are a very vocal minority.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

I dont think people realise the size issue with Summons. They just want what they want despite it being bad for the game, or bad for the class. Sure Summoners in XI were cool looking, and they were ultimately usless in any real endgame content. Is that what we want here? A cool looking class nobody wants along?

I for one like the Summoner just how it is, and i think most people do too. These people that keep bitching for changes (and its the same people over and over) are a very vocal minority.

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I hope you realize that this is a forum where people are allowed to post feedback and opinions on the game.
SE doesn't need you to do their job.
I approve that you come here telling SE that you like the current version of Summoner but I disapprove of you telling other people that they can't express their opinions on the game.
Please consider this so this forum can become a nicer place for all of us.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

Wait... so you mean that people can't post their opinions on a class/job unless they've lvled it all the way to lvl 50?
That's the worst piece of crap I've ever heard.

Having lvled arcanist to lvl 50 twice, once on my first character when 2.0 was released and recently on a character on another server, I can promise that there's no bloody difference in playstyle between summoner lvl 40 and lvl 50, which makes your argument invalid. If you can't come up with anything better then please go bother someone else... -.-

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What kind of drivel is this ? You get Rouse at 42, Spur at 45, Miasma II at 46, Enkindle and Shadow Flare at 50. How doesn't that make a difference in playstyle ?

You can't really be calling other people's arguments with statements that are this ridiculous.

Pole? Woot Pole? Is this a Polling thread or i'm missing strip pole?

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

I dont think people realise the size issue with Summons. They just want what they want despite it being bad for the game, or bad for the class. Sure Summoners in XI were cool looking, and they were ultimately usless in any real endgame content. Is that what we want here? A cool looking class nobody wants along?

I for one like the Summoner just how it is, and i think most people do too. These people that keep bitching for changes (and its the same people over and over) are a very vocal minority.

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i saw summoners at endgame all the time especially for stuff like kirin they would use diablos. what i would propose is reworking the current smn but instead of completely scraping the current smn roll it into sch as a stance that uses powered up carbuncles instead of egi's.

yes definetly, i can't imagine how could the devs just simply screwed such an iconic class/job for the FF franchise.

So again, yes please.

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Originally Posted by Bigbosshenry

yes definetly, i can't imagine how could the devs just simply screwed such an iconic class/job for the FF franchise.

So again, yes please.

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Do tell, how did they screw it up ?

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Originally Posted by Dwill

What kind of drivel is this ? You get Rouse at 42, Spur at 45, Miasma II at 46, Enkindle and Shadow Flare at 50. How doesn't that make a difference in playstyle ?

You can't really be calling other people's arguments with statements that are this ridiculous.

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You pretty much take and replace ruin with Rouse, Spur, Enkindle and Shadowflare when fitting. Is that what you call a different playstyle?
Two of these abilities does pretty much the same thing which is a damage boost to your pet and one is a nuke that you can use once every five minutes.
Sure Miasma II, Shadowflare and Enkindle is a nice improvement to Summoners AOE capabilities but they hardly change the playstyle.

And if you want to invalidate my argument you might wanna add how these abilities make such a huge difference in playstyle. Just naming abilities isn't an argument in itself you know.

So we can get a count now?

For: 1,135
Against: 21, 872

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Originally Posted by Exstal

So we can get a count now?

For: 1,135
Against: 21, 872

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You might want to add your source so people can doublecheck those numbers. I hope you don't expect people to just believe everything you say.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

You might want to add your source so people can doublecheck those numbers. I hope you don't expect people to just believe everything you say.

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It's good to be skeptical. It's why I never believe a vast majority of Summoners want the class reworked. I'm not sure if you joined the game recently, or just the forums, but this SMN outcry is definitely far less the Warrior outcry. A class that was clearly and definitely weak as opposed to a class that is strong. Feelings aren't a good enough reason to rework what is established into something that it's not. Although, from stories I've heard, World of Warcraft did such a thing (except it made the class worse).