Just discontinued subscription due to Wuk and increased wokeness across SE corp.

Every day I wake up and see this thread still open got me like:

https://media1.tenor.com/m/V2PoL6lf0...tter-media.gif

anyone who uses the word "woke" or "wokeness" seriously is a weirdo that is just dogwhistling to people "I'm a racist and sexist and I don't like that people don't like that".


You leave because of 'wokeness'? Good riddance. Bye. Please go crawl under a rock and continue to be very afraid of a normal society where everyone is equal. Don't need your kind here.

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

anyone who uses the word "woke" or "wokeness" seriously is a weirdo that is just dogwhistling to people "I'm a racist and sexist and I don't like that people don't like that".


You leave because of 'wokeness'? Good riddance. Bye. Please go crawl under a rock and continue to be very afraid of a normal society where everyone is equal. Don't need your kind here.

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How inclusive and tolerant of you. Very nuanced viewpoint you have.

Dawntrail's MSQ was bad. It's boring, slow, predictable, unengaging and repetitive. Wuk Lamat is also bad character, especially because she's constantly shoved down your throat and steals the spotlight from other characters and the player.
Dawntrail is all those things and more...

But it's not woke.

Does Wuk Lamat's gender influence or impact the story in any way?
Would this terrible story be any better had she been a man?

No. Exactly, thank you.

No need to come in here to peddle your weird rightwing buzzwords.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

This has to be one of the most evil things I've read on this forum

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TY It's part of my Lalafell RP

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Originally Posted by Karious

I care. We lost another real one.

Hopefully SE sees the impact of their decisions.

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Someone leaving because of "wOkEnEsS" is no one this game (or any other medium) needs. Easy as that.

Tolerance is very simple to understand. Very simple to execute.

Tolerance is a social contract. It is a social protection. It means "accept people however they are".
If you break it, then the social contract no longer applies to you. This also means you lose its protections. Entirely, unequivocally, until you regain the tolerance for the social contract.

The FIRST ONE to break the social contract, loses that protection. People that bully and discriminate the FIRST ONE because they break it, are not really breaking the social contract themselves, because the FIRST ONE voluntarily removed any right they have for tolerating their views.

Let's say we have a person called Z. Z says "I don't like X". X is a person. X didn't do any crimes. X didn't do anything wrong. X didn't physically nor mentally harm anyone. X didn't dislike another person. X just merely exists.
It means that Z is intolerant. The whole dang alphabet goes after Z for being a crappy intolerant person. Z tries to defend themselves with "omg you're all so intolerant", but they're mistaken. Because Z's dislike to X is intolerance, and they threw the first stone. And we don't have to tolerate intolerance as a tolerant society.

And "nuance" is not a concept in tolerance. Either you tolerate, or you do not. Adhere to the social contract, or do not.
Anyone who tries to say differently is just trying to create wiggle room where they can treat people differently based on a random bias based on arbitrary specifications, and I see no reason to negotiate with these people. You need no wiggle room, that wiggle room is only for nefarious purposes to drive a wedge between people.

I still haven't bought dawntrail. Maybe the next expansion will be better

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

For examples of how inclusive, tolerant and loving we, the party of diversity are, please see Exhibits A.













See? It's okay to refer to a group of people as 'your kind' and 'like you' and say 'I don't have to be inclusive towards you' when it's a person you disagree with. Who needs to try to actually have a discussion with and try to understand their opinion anyways? It's much easier to just label them as the bad guy so you can completely dismiss them as a person. Clearly, in 100% of cases, anyone who uses the word woke is an evil bigot. We, the party of inclusivity, are always right and the good guys and every person who disagrees with us is scum and subhuman. I'm not the bigot for using bigoted language myself like 'your kind'! I'm the good guy!

Please also see below Exhibit B for how we treat people who come out openly about how they were harassed and stalked by an LGBTQ person.




See guys? See how virtuous we are? The other side are horrible people, stupid people, but not us! We're correct and enlightened individuals who are always right. Who needs to even try to remotely understand the other side anyways? All their points are garbage and so are they.

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I said it before, something about Hrothgar players lol.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Calling women "female" already says everything.

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Right, totally awful. Should have called them males.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

See? It's okay to refer to a group of people as 'your kind' and 'like you' and say 'I don't have to be inclusive towards you' when it's a person you disagree with. Who needs to try to actually have a discussion with and try to understand their opinion anyways? It's much easier to just label them as the bad guy so you can completely dismiss them as a person. Clearly, in 100% of cases, anyone who uses the word woke is an evil bigot. We, the party of inclusivity, are always right and the good guys and every person who disagrees with us is scum and subhuman. I'm not the bigot for using bigoted language myself like 'your kind'! I'm the good guy!

Please also see below Exhibit B for how we treat people who come out openly about how they were harassed and stalked by an LGBTQ person.




See guys? See how virtuous we are? The other side are horrible people, stupid people, but not us! We're correct and enlightened individuals who are always right. Who needs to even try to remotely understand the other side anyways? All their points are garbage and so are they.

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Translation:
"I'm such a victim of voicing my crappy opinion that people don't like sadface.jpeg"

Maybe don't have crappy, intolerant opinions, targeting people who only exist and do nothing to diminish your experience of life, work, etc.
Well unless of course your general experience of life and work and etc. is along the lines of "treat others who-are-not-like-me like crap and have it be acceptable".
Which is kinda what the group of of tolerance and inclusivity is trying to get rid of.

You CAN be a cis-white-straight person. Nobody cares. Just don't be a wuss about it and voice crappy opinions when people are different than you.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

For examples of how inclusive, tolerant and loving we, the party of diversity are, please see Exhibits A.













See? It's okay to refer to a group of people as 'your kind' and 'like you' and say 'I don't have to be inclusive towards you' when it's a person you disagree with. Who needs to try to actually have a discussion with and try to understand their opinion anyways? It's much easier to just label them as the bad guy so you can completely dismiss them as a person. Clearly, in 100% of cases, anyone who uses the word woke is an evil bigot. We, the party of inclusivity, are always right and the good guys and every person who disagrees with us is scum and subhuman. I'm not the bigot for using bigoted language myself like 'your kind'! I'm the good guy!

Please also see below Exhibit B for how we treat people who come out openly about how they were harassed and stalked by an LGBTQ person.




See guys? See how virtuous we are? The other side are horrible people, stupid people, but not us! We're correct and enlightened individuals who are always right. Who needs to even try to remotely understand the other side anyways? All their points are garbage and so are they.

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Kudos to you!

That is a mic drop post if I ever saw one.

I truly believe if more people were as insightful as you that the world would be a better place.

Its a shame the radicals from both sides have to tarnish everything with their bile and hate.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

Translation:
"I'm such a victim of voicing my crappy opinion that people don't like sadface.jpeg"

Maybe don't have crappy, intolerant opinions, targeting people who only exist and do nothing to diminish your experience of life, work, etc.
Well unless of course your general experience of life and work and etc. is along the lines of "treat others who-are-not-like-me like crap and have it be acceptable".
Which is kinda what the group of of tolerance and inclusivity is trying to get rid of.

You CAN be a cis-white-straight person. Nobody cares. Just don't be a wuss about it and voice crappy opinions when people are different than you.

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you and your "holier than thou" attitude


get off your high horse.

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

Tolerance is very simple to understand. Very simple to execute.

Tolerance is a social contract. It is a social protection. It means "accept people however they are".
If you break it, then the social contract no longer applies to you. This also means you lose its protections. Entirely, unequivocally, until you regain the tolerance for the social contract.

The FIRST ONE to break the social contract, loses that protection. People that bully and discriminate the FIRST ONE because they break it, are not really breaking the social contract themselves, because the FIRST ONE voluntarily removed any right they have for tolerating their views.

Let's say we have a person called Z. Z says "I don't like X". X is a person. X didn't do any crimes. X didn't do anything wrong. X didn't physically nor mentally harm anyone. X didn't dislike another person. X just merely exists.
It means that Z is intolerant. The whole dang alphabet goes after Z for being a crappy intolerant person. Z tries to defend themselves with "omg you're all so intolerant", but they're mistaken. Because Z's dislike to X is intolerance, and they threw the first stone. And we don't have to tolerate intolerance as a tolerant society.

And "nuance" is not a concept in tolerance. Either you tolerate, or you do not. Adhere to the social contract, or do not.
Anyone who tries to say differently is just trying to create wiggle room where they can treat people differently based on a random bias based on arbitrary specifications, and I see no reason to negotiate with these people. You need no wiggle room, that wiggle room is only for nefarious purposes to drive a wedge between people.

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No I am sorry, the social contract is not as simple as you make it out to be. I will disprove this with examples.

Example A

I'll start with the most direct one. A CIS Straight White Male(Person A) playing FFXIV thinks the voice actor for the main character in Dawntrail did a terrible job voice acting. They later find out after reading through the forum that the voice actor was trans. They don't hate trans people themselves, and may even have trans friends, but they also believe that DEI hiring practices exist, and know of things such as ESG where these companies get funding from powerful, wealthy firms and individuals for upping their ESG score. They then conclude that this trans person was a DEI hire, not because they hate trans people, but because they have a strong belief that DEI hiring practices exist. They now voice this in a discussion board, but you would immediately label them as a bigot, no? Because how do they convey to you that they believe the voice actor was a DEI hire and their performance was genuinely terrible?

Example B

A CIS White person is a supervisor at a company. Upon going through metrics, he notices that an LGBTQ person has terrible numbers and customers are complaining about them. He warns the LGBTQ person that they need to improve their performace soon or there will be consequences. The LGBTQ person's performance does not improve and he has to fire them. Upon which point they take the supervisor to HR saying the reason they were fired is because the supervisor is a bigot and hates their minority status. Would this then make the supervisor a bigot in your eyes?

Example C

A trans person is allowed to fight a woman in an MMA match and gives her permanent injuries. A group of people emerges that protests and strongly disagrees with trans people being allowed to compete against CIS women. Does that make this group of people bigoted?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

See the problem is that the term 'bigot' is used way too loosely nowadays and often with the intent to silence CIS Straight White individuals or people who disagree with the LGBTQ agenda. So no, the social contract is not that simple and yes, it is nuanced.

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Originally Posted by AmorfaVex

Kudos to you!

That is a mic drop post if I ever saw one.

I truly believe if more people were as insightful as you that the world would be a better place.

Its a shame the radicals from both sides have to tarnish everything with their bile and hate.

Thank you.

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You're welcome. I wish someday we could all have civil discussions without dehumanizing the other side. I acknowledge that the other side can have their own hatred too, of course. Really we should not be striving for either extreme, but a middle ground.

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Originally Posted by Rotpecra

you and your "holier than thou" attitude


get off your high horse.

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Of course I'm holier than anyone who has the opinion of "I wanna treat other people like crap".
Basic human decency, morality, and ethics. Anyone that touches that or tries to erode it, is evil.

I don't *want* to treat intolerant folk like they're the scum of the earth. But hey, they're the ones that intentionally are intolerant and broke the social contract of tolerance first. So I'll have to show them what that is like, what they're trying to do to other people. If they don't like it, and cry about intolerance... they're just hypocritical. Able to dish out the intolerance to *insert minority group here* but unable to handle that intolerance themselves. And I think they're wussies because of it :)

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

the voice actor for the main character in Dawntrail did a terrible job voice acting.

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(yelling) "listen to me .. "

how do you fail to perform a yelling line. must be an amateur VA or something. how did they land a final fantasy gig

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

Of course I'm holier than anyone who has the opinion of "I wanna treat other people like crap".
Basic human decency, morality, and ethics. Anyone that touches that or tries to erode it, is evil.

I don't *want* to treat intolerant folk like they're the scum of the earth. But hey, they're the ones that intentionally are intolerant and broke the social contract of tolerance first. So I'll have to show them what that is like, what they're trying to do to other people. If they don't like it, and cry about intolerance... they're just hypocritical. Able to dish out the intolerance to *insert minority group here* but unable to handle that intolerance themselves. And I think they're wussies because of it :)

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so do i need to be a voice actor to think someone is bad at voice acting

do i need to be a cook to think the foot tastes like garbage

i have ears. i have a mouth.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

See guys? See how virtuous we are? The other side are horrible people, stupid people, but not us! We're correct and enlightened individuals who are always right. Who needs to even try to remotely understand the other side anyways? All their points are garbage and so are they.

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It's called the "Paradox of tolerance". You can't be tolerant about intolerant people or the intolerant people will win at the end. So you have to be intolerant about them to keep a tolerant society.

It's basically how the nazis took over germany: They were tolerated. And then it was too late.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Please also see below Exhibit B for how we treat people who come out openly about how they were harassed and stalked by an LGBTQ person.

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Nothing I quoted or responded to was about him being harassed and stalked, but about living in constant fear that his life is going to be ruined if someone calls him a bigot, an irrational fear which ironically leads him to being prejudiced against certain people.
It's straight mental illness to live life in such a constant state of fear and paranoia and reinforcing such beliefs can only do more harm.

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's called the "Paradox of tolerance". You can't be tolerant about intolerant people or the intolerant people will win at the end. So you have to be intolerant about them to keep a tolerant society.

It's basically how the nazis took over germany: They were tolerated. And then it was too late.

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And how do you know that they are intolerant? Is it because they are saying blatant, genuinely racist/sexist things? Or is it because they believe trans people shouldn't be competing in women's sports? Or that they believe DEI hires exist? Or that they believe in meritocracy instead of Affirmative Action? The criteria for labelling someone a bigot is much looser nowadays. Probably anyone voicing any of the opinions I just put forth would get them labelled as a bigot nowadays, instead of warranting any actual good faith discussion.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

And how do you know that they are intolerant? Is it because they are saying blatant, genuinely racist/sexist things? Or is it because they believe trans people shouldn't be competing in women's sports? Or that they believe DEI hires exist? Or that they believe in meritocracy instead of Affirmative Action? The criteria for labelling someone a bigot is much looser nowadays. Probably anyone voicing any of the opinions I just put forth would get them labelled as a bigot nowadays, instead of warranting any actual good faith discussion.

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im glad all this bickering is really restricted to the internet. irl everyone behaves normally.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

No I am sorry, the social contract is not as simple as you make it out to be. I will disprove this with examples.
[...]

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(had to cut quote due to char limit lmao)

Example A is nonsense. You can dislike the voice acting and not make it about trans. I respect that opinion, it's completely valid and, even as an LGBTQ ally myself, I think the VA needs practice.
People who defend it as "omg you're just anti-trans" are the radicals you can ignore if you didn't start to make it about transgender in the first place. However if the argument is "their voice acting sucks BECAUSE they are trans", you are a bigot. Simple.

Example B does not make the supervisor a bigot if there is a proper paper trail, and the LGBTQ individual is abusing their minority status for preferable treatment. However, if the LGBTQ individual can prove that their supervisor made anti-LGBTQ comments they can absolutely use this in their defense even if their performance is still arguably bad. Conclusion is: don't make about being a minority, fully focus on performance, and make sure it is absolutely, 100% about nothing else. Simple. Basic human decency.

Example C is a known "fake outrage". Exaggeration and rarely happens ever, if at all. Lots of trans MtF women participate in women's sports and just can't beat cis women, but that fact is just conveniently ignored by the alt-right weirdos until a FtM trans does happen to win.
There's plenty of checks and regulations in place at the moment for such situations in the real world (meaning not the world that alt-right propaganda feeds people who follow it). Go look it up, if you dare to prove yourself wrong.

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Originally Posted by Rotpecra

im glad all this bickering is really restricted to the internet. irl everyone behaves normally.

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Many people just keep it under wraps. Especially those who don't agree with certain aspects of the LGBTQ agenda, because they know they will be punished and immediately labelled as a bigot. Even if they want to have a good faith, nuanced discussion, they would probably get reprimanded or fired from their job, or have family/friends scream at them and possibly even cut ties with them for wanting to have a discussion about these things that challenges the western societal accepted worldview.

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Originally Posted by Rotpecra

im glad all this bickering is really restricted to the internet. irl everyone behaves normally.

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It's because irl nobody actually cares about this stuff, people just want to get on with their lives and stay out of pointless conflict.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Many people just keep it under wraps. Especially those who don't agree with certain aspects of the LGBTQ agenda, because they know they will be punished and immediately labelled as a bigot. Even if they want to have a good faith, nuanced discussion, they would probably get reprimanded or fired from their job, or have family/friends scream at them and possibly even cut ties with them for wanting to have a discussion about these things that challenges the western societal accepted worldview.

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thats how its always been though. before the internet. the most outrageous news or people were restricted to newspapers and television. never in your real life daily circle. aside from maybe a boss who treated their female workers terribly

"I want you to respect the fact that I don't want people like you to exist and hate everything about you"

Why are lgbt expected to respect people who don't respect them? I never understood that logic

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

"I want you to respect the fact that I don't want people like you to exist and hate everything about you"

Why are lgbt expected to respect people who don't respect them? I never understood that logic

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im lgbt and i think the voice acting of wuk was terrible sorry

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Many people just keep it under wraps. Especially those who don't agree with certain aspects of the LGBTQ agenda, because they know they will be punished and immediately labelled as a bigot. Even if they want to have a good faith, nuanced discussion, they would probably get reprimanded or fired from their job, or have family/friends scream at them and possibly even cut ties with them for wanting to have a discussion about these things that challenges the western societal accepted worldview.

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There are public thoughts and private thoughts. When people have something to lose, you'll only see their public thoughts. And when they are truly able to be themselves, like on anonymous platforms or in private with like minded people, that's when you can see their private thoughts. Punishment and moderation will only ever impact what kind of public opinions people express, but what people are actually thinking can not be policed.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

What is "western wokeness"?

Is it being inclusive of diversity? Is it being generally decent and humane? I'm not sure I know what "western wokeness" is actually defined as.

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I see it as a label for a group of people that took what used to be racism on the personal level, then reversed it, made the racism systemic instead of just personal, and think they're doing the world good.

Also literally EVERYTHING I have seen under the "banner" of this group or a likeminded group has just never been good. A game? The game usually sucks. Movie? The movie is trash. Show? The show ends up getting canceled. Government leader? They end up being the worst we've had in decades. Sports? They ruin what used to be fair and turned it into a mockery of what it once was. Everyone wanted to call themselves woke about some silly perceived prejudice, but they are actually asleep to the class war that is going on which has nothing to do with race or gender. They're all "useful idiots" to the ruling class as the perfect distraction to keep everyone busy with.

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

(had to cut quote due to char limit lmao)

Example A is nonsense. You can dislike the voice acting and not make it about trans. I respect that opinion, it's completely valid and, even as an LGBTQ ally myself, I think the VA needs practice.
People who defend it as "omg you're just anti-trans" are the radicals you can ignore if you didn't start to make it about transgender in the first place. However if the argument is "their voice acting sucks BECAUSE they are trans", you are a bigot. Simple.

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I appreciate the genuine answer. I will focus only on Example A because I don't want to derail this too much with the other examples. One could make the argument that it is hard not to make it about transgender when companies are often implementing DEI hiring practices and for someone who believed that, this would appear to be one such case since it does not make sense why the VA quality is markedly lower than other recent major characters. It is difficult to voice things like this without offending the other side and making them immediately think you are a bigot. What if the reason this trans VA was hired by the company really was because she was trans so they were given prefential treatment in the VA casting role for the MC of Dawntrail? How does one voice such a concern without appearing as a bigot for voicing that view? Whether you think this view makes them bigoted or not, there are plenty of people who would automatically write that person off as a bigot.

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

"I want you to respect the fact that I don't want people like you to exist and hate everything about you"

Why are lgbt expected to respect people who don't respect them? I never understood that logic

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Or you can just take a step back, breathe, and not immediately come to this conclusion just because someone criticizes something about LGBTQ. A person bringing up DEI hiring practices or saying this trans VA was terrible does not mean they want your existence to be erased or for LGBTQ to forever be marginalized. LGBTQ is not immune from criticism, just like no one else should expect to be immune from criticism.

Very impressive troll bait

9/10

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

"I want you to respect the fact that I don't want people like you to exist and hate everything about you"

Why are lgbt expected to respect people who don't respect them? I never understood that logic

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I grew up in a land and time where respect was earned, not given, where common decency was the expected norm and a disagreement over a minor matter with no broad relevance didn't affect very much. I've had shouting matches with close friends escalating to threats of mortal harm, did we engage in them or think less of one another? No, we concluded our business, had tea and carried on as if it never happened because that's what normal people who don't go out of their way to hate people do.

Honestly, society two hundred years ago may have been backwards as seen from the modern era but their intellect far surpasses what can be seen today.

can you explain what you mean by "wokeness" lol

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Originally Posted by Lusarae

Everyone wanted to call themselves woke about some silly perceived prejudice, but they are actually asleep to the class war that is going on which has nothing to do with race or gender. They're all "useful idiots" to the ruling class as the perfect distraction to keep everyone busy with.

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Indeed. The purpose being to keep everyone divided so no one pays attention to the small group of people that are actually oppressing everyone. If one day people could come to accept each other's differences and unite against the true oppressor, we would have a much better world. But instead we're all distracted and at each other's throats over things like this while the ruling class laughs. It is not the 'woke' side or the 'bigoted' side that is keeping us all poor. But I guess this would make me sound conspiratorial, so I'll get off my soapbox.

XIV doesnt have a barrens chat so the forum has to do lol.

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Originally Posted by Lusarae

I see it as a label for a group of people that took what used to be racism on the personal level, then reversed it, made the racism systemic instead of just personal, and think they're doing the world good.

Also literally EVERYTHING I have seen under the "banner" of this group or a likeminded group has just never been good. A game? The game usually sucks. Movie? The movie is trash. Show? The show ends up getting canceled. Government leader? They end up being the worst we've had in decades. Sports? They ruin what used to be fair and turned it into a mockery of what it once was. Everyone wanted to call themselves woke about some silly perceived prejudice, but they are actually asleep to the class war that is going on which has nothing to do with race or gender. They're all "useful idiots" to the ruling class as the perfect distraction to keep everyone busy with.

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No one needed to make racism systemic Hon, it's been there all along.
The rest is just indistinct rambling.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Indeed. The purpose being to keep everyone divided so no one pays attention to the small group of people that are actually oppressing everyone. If one day people could come to accept each other's differences and unite against the true oppressor, we would have a much better world. But instead we're all distracted and at each other's throats over things like this while the ruling class laughs. It is not the 'woke' side or the 'bigoted' side that is keeping us all poor. But I guess this would make me sound conspiratorial, so I'll get off my soapbox.

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Nobody understands this, because Murica

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

Tolerance is a social contract. It is a social protection. It means "accept people however they are".

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Originally Posted by Chiru_Kai

Don't need your kind here.

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https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8d/76/33/8...4c8f7b8732.jpg

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8d/76/33/8...4c8f7b8732.jpg

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Paradox of tolerance is a thing

https://i.imgur.com/iH0sNq5.png