Summoner is a Final Fantasy 14 summoner (not a warlock wow clone)

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Black Mage- Doesn't have access to amplifier or paradox till 86, which without having to focus on your timers anymore is literally the only skill ceiling on the job now besides fight knowledge.

White Mage- this Job is literally always baren.

Scholar- See white Mage

Monk- Half of it's masterful blitz abilities are unlocked post 86, and masterful blitz is literally now its core mechanic with greased lightning gone.

Paladin- Entire new Confetior rotation not unlocked until freaking 90, and it was one of the more boring tank jobs before this.

And this is just if you set the nebulous level of 86. Every other job have core mechanics left out of their kit at 65 or above that just leaves their kits feeling rough and incomplete. So no it is not JUST a SMN problem. Every job has 100's of hours of gameplay essentially made very bland due to the decision to ability sync with your level.

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Is your comment satire? Please, tell me it is.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Is your comment satire? Please, tell me it is.

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Could say the same about any of yours. If you're not actually going to have a constructive discussion, don't bother replying.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Could say the same about any of yours. If you're not actually going to have a constructive discussion, don't bother replying.

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There can't be a constructive discussion if you don't know what you are talking about, which is your case.

You are making silly comparisons: a DPS and a healer? That's why I hope your comment is satire.

As I said, you don't know what you are talking about. Monk doesn't learn half of its Blitz post level 86. All of them are unlocked at level 60, and two of them - Tornado Kick and Flint Strike - get upgrades later on.

No one is saying "Guys, BLM actually feels complete once you we get Amplifier!" or "Woah guys, PLD finally gets a tiny bit of depth now that we can use the Confiteor button four times in a row!"

If someone has to tell us that SMN feels complete, fun and gets the only little layer of depth at level 86 out of 90, then it is a huge design problem that no other job currently faces.

If you want to have a constructive discussion, be knowledgeable about the things you are talking about, make relevant comparison and be sure to have gotten the point of the discussion. Currently, you are lacking all of this.

You are explaining how level sync makes jobs less fun to play at certain level thresholds. Cool, that's also not the point of the discussion.

New SMN is pretty simple and intuitive. I like it for the most part.

Aethercharge and Carbuncle being on the gauge is pretty neat. It gives something at lower levels to play with and teaches the core rotation loop early on in the game.

Having 3 choices on what attunement you want to use lets you determine what you need to do within the next 5 to 10 seconds. Ifrit is your 'actual Caster phase' where you hardcast beyond your GCD to do heavy damage. Titan is your regular instant cast phase for double weaves and movement. Garuda is your quick instant cast phase which ends more abruptly than titan, where you can only weave one ability at a time.

The things I've noticed is that Topaz, Ruby, and Emerald Carbuncles just have "Ruin" into their gemshine ability. The naming sense and animation is a bit lackluster. It gets better when they become their egi counterparts, but the gameplay loop doesn't change much. In a way, it feels like there's progression, but at the same time, it feels like somewhat stagnant since nothing really changes in what you do.

Energy Drain giving Ruin IV is nice. It would be better if aetherflow interact with the gems in some way to introduce something new into the gameplay loop though, since the core loop doesn't change. Adding some more oGCD abilities would be nice to add some spice into the core rotation, but not in the same way where oGCDs are added for the sake of having something to press.

I'd figure if another expansion comes out, SMN might get 3 new egis that could alternate with the current 3 we have, but I figure the core loop ends up being the same unless the egis were in some form of RNG. Maybe we can have 2 static egis in the rotation with 1 random egi out of the remaining 4, and then we could have the demi trance temporarily allow us to attune to something like Bismark or Ravana and then use an Astral Flow to replace the third gem if we don't like what our third gem is?

Honestly if you made the Summons oGCD they would feel better and we'd have room for DoTs and Bane again. I think those two changes adding that extra layer of management would feel a lot better than the current iteration. It's so...boring, even at 90 I was falling asleep while playing the job through the MSQ (though I was already tired from blitzing the content for effectively two back to back all nighters), but that was a constant issue while I was playing it. I grasped the rotation in the first dungeon and had perfect uptime since. It's so intuitive that it rolls back to being a snooze fest again.

leveling from 80 to 82 I got to say I REALLY like how it plays... smooth and the burst feels very satisfying. It has some peripheral issues, but far from gamebreaking:

1) The base carbuncle is literally just... there? The only things its used for is to be able to cast 2 support spells, but it being just idling there looking at you like that cat waiting to be fed the rest of the time is really weird. I'd say this: make Summon Carbuncle spell just a cosmetic feature for the SMN because isn't almost already?... And those 2 support spells, make it like the other summons, that when you cast, the creature briefly appears for it, maybe even use Alphinaud's carby colors, or other summons at high levels.

2) The OGCDs are fine... But I wish they were rebranded or something, besides painflare which still looks neat, they don't feel particulary exciting to press like the "new toys". Same for Ruin 4.

3) PHYSICK... Unlike Anatman, which despite looking generally useless, you can still find a niche here or there to use, SMN's Physick is literally useless... there's no situation where you could benefit from spending that cast time for such small amount of HP. Either just change it to scale with INT or just gut the spell, because as it stands, it just serves to mislead new players.

4) Small QoL but the Bahamut/Phoenix gauges should be greyed out until they're available to be summoned.

I still find that he has some inconsistencies in the rotation of the summoner,
The first is the searing light which can only be used in combat.

2) swiftcast the first ruby rites is a potency gain/ because the recast is lower than the cast time '' that dumb because ifrit is really weaker than titan and garuda ''

3) pheonix is weaker than bahamut, it's a mess for a burst phases, instead of stabilizing the summoner's dps, we lost massively compare to bahamut, why?
a situational heal, although pleasant in the dungeon.

Well the rest can be corrected, it's only potency adjustments, or even cd reductions, on energy drain it would be good to go back to 30s to have a little more ogcd.

I think for 7.0 I wish they would get rid of energy drain. Fester and painflare are fine, but are completely disconnected from the rest of the kit. Maybe give us 3 aether charges again, but have them generate from summoning Garuda, titan, and ifrit. Or maybe have them proc off of using our primal trance spells. That would give us more of a skill ceiling.

This is super nit picky, but fester could use a name change too. It literally was named after the ability to cause further damage on top of our disease spells.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Honestly if you made the Summons oGCD they would feel better and we'd have room for DoTs and Bane again. I think those two changes adding that extra layer of management would feel a lot better than the current iteration. It's so...boring, even at 90 I was falling asleep while playing the job through the MSQ (though I was already tired from blitzing the content for effectively two back to back all nighters), but that was a constant issue while I was playing it. I grasped the rotation in the first dungeon and had perfect uptime since. It's so intuitive that it rolls back to being a snooze fest again.

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I don’t want DoTs to come back. They’d have to nerf our damage elsewhere to bring it back. 6.0 summoner feels a bit like 4.0 red mage. A solid base to build off of. It suffers from the new DPS syndrome, is that the kit is really straight forward but lacking depth. I felt the same way when playing red mage when it first came out. The rotation was fun, but extremely straight forward with a low skill ceiling. Red mage has had simple, yet strong additions in 5.0 and 6.0. I’m hoping that now that we have a solid base, they will keep building on top of it, instead of adding clunky new systems every expansion.

If you don’t like new summoner maybe play something else?

DoTs will likely go to a new caster in 7.0

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I’m hoping that now that we have a solid base, they will keep building on top of it, instead of adding clunky new systems every expansion.

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Considering their recent history with Dark Knight, Machinist, and Healers, I very much doubt this.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

DoTs will likely go to a new caster in 7.0

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People say this but considering Bard just had it's DoT interactivity yanked from it's kit, I think DoTs are on the way out in general and there's not going to be a "DoT Mage" to make up for the removal of all the DoTs.

I am going to disclose that I have only managed to play SMN for about 15 or 20 minutes at a striking dummy so no I do not know everything. I will say the little bit I did use it was fun and I actually enjoyed the simplicity, a job should not require months of study and 12 fingers to play. It is also at the same time really simple, there is absolutely room for more on the job and they should have maybe tried to get one or two more things on the hotbar. Previous summoner though seemed to me like two jobs fighting eachother. There was a DoT management job with abilities centered around that and the summon/trance job which had pets and DPS burst phases.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

People say this but considering Bard just had it's DoT interactivity yanked from it's kit, I think DoTs are on the way out in general and there's not going to be a "DoT Mage" to make up for the removal of all the DoTs.

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it'd be a shame if they ditched such a significant player fantasy because the engine can't handle it or they can't balance it while making it fun, but they know best so I'll defer

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am going to disclose that I have only managed to play SMN for about 15 or 20 minutes at a striking dummy so no I do not know everything. I will say the little bit I did use it was fun and I actually enjoyed the simplicity, a job should not require months of study and 12 fingers to play. It is also at the same time really simple, there is absolutely room for more on the job and they should have maybe tried to get one or two more things on the hotbar. Previous summoner though seemed to me like two jobs fighting eachother. There was a DoT management job with abilities centered around that and the summon/trance job which had pets and DPS burst phases.

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and I don't think every job should be as simple as clicking the blinking lights as they come up, the difference is the game already has that kind of job and has now lost one with some actual upfront complexity

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I think for 7.0 I wish they would get rid of energy drain. Fester and painflare are fine, but are completely disconnected from the rest of the kit. Maybe give us 3 aether charges again, but have them generate from summoning Garuda, titan, and ifrit. Or maybe have them proc off of using our primal trance spells. That would give us more of a skill ceiling.

This is super nit picky, but fester could use a name change too. It literally was named after the ability to cause further damage on top of our disease spells.

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This is a very good fine-tuning idea! It bothers me that they could, but they don't interact with anything else.

And the whole Energy Drain > Fester seems... like unecessary. Reminds me of pre EW Ninja with DwaD > Assassinate.

I think for 7.0 I wish they would get rid of energy drain. Fester and painflare are fine, but are completely disconnected from the rest of the kit. Maybe give us 3 aether charges again, but have them generate from summoning Garuda, titan, and ifrit. Or maybe have them proc off of using our primal trance spells. That would give us more of a skill ceiling.

This is super nit picky, but fester could use a name change too. It literally was named after the ability to cause further damage on top of our disease spells.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I don’t want DoTs to come back. They’d have to nerf our damage elsewhere to bring it back.

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I would rather have the worst DPS potential in the game and have interesting gameplay to go with it. There's a reason I fell in love with this job in HW, it certainly wasn't the damage. It was Arcanist and Summoner working together into a stronger job fantasy than their individual parts, and the lore actually adding to the themes of both the job and the worldbuilding of XIV overall.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

6.0 summoner feels a bit like 4.0 red mage. A solid base to build off of. It suffers from the new DPS syndrome, is that the kit is really straight forward but lacking depth. I felt the same way when playing red mage when it first came out. The rotation was fun, but extremely straight forward with a low skill ceiling. Red mage has had simple, yet strong additions in 5.0 and 6.0. I’m hoping that now that we have a solid base, they will keep building on top of it, instead of adding clunky new systems every expansion.

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I don't like Summoner because it all but abandoned every mechanic (pet related OR not) that made it interesting before due to a problem with encounter design that is easily rectified and a pet AI issue they literally fixed at the same time while refusing the fix the actual problem, something you'd notice if you had bothered to test for it. The only issue left is the ghosting issue which you have to go out of your way to force going into it now and that could be solved by using the same trick they used on Reaper but utilizing Carbuncle as the base for the avatar. They're still actually resummoning the pet for some god awful reason and that makes the already slow animations and clunky dash AI on the carby/egi iterations feel entirely disconnected from your rotation because they take as long to resolve as people who complained about pet delays prior to now actually believed they were. In ShB they weren't ever an issue if you didn't force two consecutive pet commands, and unlike ShB a single oGCD completely avoids the ghosting issue now, even if woven immediately before the resummon, even on SCH with Eos auto-healing.

Even so, the problem with Summoner isn't just the pet AI. The fact it takes 6-8 seconds to get access to Carbuncle's shield after each avatar use (apart from demis) is proof they fucked this iteration up royally. And once you move past that, you see it's for a generic phase kit not even worth the effort mechanically, as it has zero maintenance and SE's encounter design trends will kill any 'reactivity' it has. The other problem is there is no room in the rotation itself for anything else. You get one Ruin III and one Ruin IV per minute and everything else is spent on Egi-Spells, of which only Titan and Ifrit have any room to spare for any oGCDs. Garuda could with an adjustment to Slipstream's cast time. Even so, oGCD Summons is necessary just to free up 4 GCDs worth of space that should go to some other major button or two. Which is why I suggested readding DoTs in the first place. Low effort, already exists in their engine, easy to implement now if they wanted to. And alters the rotation in a manner worthy of pursuit. The only other option from there is altering the Demi-Summons, which I have said should have been the focus of their current attention in the first place.

ShB Summoner by contrast wasn't a phase-based mess that left no room for error. In fact, the only thing that was missing from it was pet interactions. The priority based structure actually was perfect for standalone ability additions. All manner of pet gauges could have been added to it. In fact, you could add the Avatars to that version and have them update the Egi Assault actions, and you could alter the 40 downtime however you wanted. How do I know that, because I literally explained how you could re-insert that back into the current rotation in the prior paragraph and post.

Straight up, Nothing SE had done prior needed to be removed to make this work. That's how easy it is to see they could have done this better.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

If you don’t like new summoner maybe play something else?

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Already am looking into alternatives. Been doing so for months. Speaking of, did you know Longtime fans of every single job across the board appear upset over the new direction and are citing similar concerns? In fact, the only ones that aren't are citing that it's kinda boring what was added. In other words, you might as well be asking me to play a different game instead, to which the response is: How about you accept that there's a reason people are pissed about the current direction even within the framework of SE's stated design goals and that they're well within their rights to expect SE to do better? Seems more productive. If you're happy with Summoner go and play it. I certainly am. Otherwise I wouldn't know what to be angry about and why. And I plan to if the alternatives prove less interesting, which the majority seem to be. So far NIN's the only alternative that fits the requirements of my static (Can't play BLM as we have one already, two static members are fighting over melee/tank slots and would prefer I kept the flex DPS slot, all the healer slots are taken by better healers as our static has 4, half of my FC are healer mains too), and my prefered mechanics (BRD got its DoT interactions completely gutted and initial tests prove it's both staler and more RNG prone than ever, no other job has a sufficiently diverse priority system to engage me long term, which leaves NIN, a job I'm certain will get destroyed by this same rework process in 7.0 given SE's inclinations, as new players still complain about mudras).

And, though it is completely ineffectual, I will miss my carby pet regardless of whatever else I pick. Taken together, where would you have me go?

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Originally Posted by Sequora

DoTs will likely go to a new caster in 7.0

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I'm expecting SE to phase them all out at this point. High headcount instances like Alliance Raids and Bozja are the unstated reason why. SE could unlock the debuff cap, but noooooo, that's work. They're pressed as it is. The easier thing for them to do is remove them all, and they've been putting that work in since ARR if you haven't been paying attention. If you want a good DoT job (not caster, job) to stay, you have to be making the argument for them all to stay constantly, in order to put it in their minds that they're making a mistake. See the above why it still wouldn't be a sufficient answer. I like Summoner's aesthetic. I just want the kit to match that level of expectation. And it doesn't when given the scrutiny it deserves.

I'm sorry, but I'm tired of people not understanding where the problem is. I 100% am with the average player on the graphical side of things. It is a beautiful job to look at. But that's where my praise ends, as it should. A book-carrying intellectual channelling the power of corrupted divinities and spells of arcane design SHOULD have some serious metric of complexity to it. Or at least something major to micromanage. That goes hand in hand with the theme and fantasy of said job. This kit doesn't meet that bar. Hell it wouldn't even in ARR. And the Job guide being padded with trait upgrade after trait upgrade all but proves that.

Fact is, they could have done this and kept the entirety of the ShB kit while carrying over the alterations they did to prior actions and it would have been perfect. Anyone with a mind to figure it out could conclude that.

The only cost would have been numbers, and frankly I do not care about numbers. Let me play a deep, complex, and fun game first. Balance it after.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

and I don't think every job should be as simple as clicking the blinking lights as they come up, the difference is the game already has that kind of job and has now lost one with some actual upfront complexity

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Wow, dismissive and condescending, how helpful.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Wow, dismissive and condescending, how helpful.

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alright let me break it down for seeing as you need some help (this is an example of condescending for future reference).

Anyone is allowed to enjoy a simple job, I don't care you do you. It doesn't make you less of an anything; it's just what you like. Having taken new SMN through the MSQ I can accurately say to anyone reading that there was no flexibility or effort to get to any part of the rotation. It was a flowchart of:
CDs>bahamut>titan>the others (this is your single point of variability/input, if you know the boss will move at a point don't put garuda there)>energy drain>phoenix>titan (if there are buffs up, otherwise doesn't matter)>the others>go to step 1
This was what you did every time, it was obviously what you did every time, it was what you did easily every time, and not doing the obvious+easy meant you were losing damage. It is for this reason I consider it to be a "clicking the blinking lights as they come up" job. I had a similar impression of dancer when I first tried it, but that job has much more room for optimization.

My limited impression of previous summoner was a long, predetermined, rotation. Mess up your two minute opener and tank your damage. How is that more "flexible" than the current version, exactly? I can see plenty of arguments for not liking the new summoner, primarily the much simpler rotation, but less flexibility is not it. Personally, I like the new version a lot more. Simple does not mean less fun - for me. If the abilities are fun and impactful when I hit them and the rotation is smooth, then that's a great start.

If you look at player metrics, simpler jobs have more players in general. That said, those that enjoy longer, more complex rotations are not going to be happy. Summoner is far from perfect in it's current state, but, overall, I really like it, and prefer the direction it's going in.

Need to have at least one happy player posting. lol

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Originally Posted by VorpalSpork

My limited impression of previous summoner was a long, predetermined, rotation. Mess up your two minute opener and tank your damage. How is that more "flexible" than the current version, exactly? I can see plenty of arguments for not liking the new summoner, primarily the much simpler rotation, but less flexibility is not it. Personally, I like the new version a lot more. Simple does not mean less fun - for me. If the abilities are fun and impactful when I hit them and the rotation is smooth, then that's a great start.

If you look at player metrics, simpler jobs have more players in general. That said, those that enjoy longer, more complex rotations are not going to be happy. Summoner is far from perfect in it's current state, but, overall, I really like it, and prefer the direction it's going in.

Need to have at least one happy player posting. lol

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Compare a standard opener to a TEA opener in terms of rotation flexibility that is possible. Beyond the opener there were plenty of ways to play safe to learn a fight, then start squeezing out more hard casts to put more potency into buff windows, as one example. It was also a class that could move many spells around to fit into different windows with different comps more efficiently. New summoner is utterly devoid of any such process. It has exactly 2 GCDs of summon-flexibility per minute at base recast time (one ruin 3, one ruin 4) and whatever pointless flexibility exists within the elemental summons (where you put your 3 hardcasts, one of which depends more on the boss, and one of which should be swiftcasted for dps).

Simple jobs are cool for people who enjoy them, and I'm glad people do, it's nice to see people have fun. I struggle to find an appropriate word for it, but the 'complexity' minded people are being routinely herded into fewer and fewer jobs as time goes by. I don't think it's unfair for those players to want a job with a learning curve similar to old summoner, or even steeper.

I'm not a big fan of constantly referencing old summoner, because the developers clearly want to ignore it even existed. However, new summoner fundamentally betrays the expectations of people who did play and love old summoner and is otherwise poorly designed. I get the feeling that they felt they really had to do something drastic with summoner (they said as much in the live letter introducing the rework, I won't go into their detail) which is fine, and also that they ran around in circles and eventually settled on something without enough time to finish (not factual, I infer this from COVID struggles and when they said they went through a number of concepts in the same live letter) which is a shame because there are parts of the rework I really enjoy and agree with. Hopefully they run counter to recent history with Machinist and add some really cool stuff down the road, but I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

alright let me break it down for seeing as you need some help (this is an example of condescending for future reference).

Anyone is allowed to enjoy a simple job, I don't care you do you. It doesn't make you less of an anything; it's just what you like. Having taken new SMN through the MSQ I can accurately say to anyone reading that there was no flexibility or effort to get to any part of the rotation. It was a flowchart of:
CDs>bahamut>titan>the others (this is your single point of variability/input, if you know the boss will move at a point don't put garuda there)>energy drain>phoenix>titan (if there are buffs up, otherwise doesn't matter)>the others>go to step 1
This was what you did every time, it was obviously what you did every time, it was what you did easily every time, and not doing the obvious+easy meant you were losing damage. It is for this reason I consider it to be a "clicking the blinking lights as they come up" job. I had a similar impression of dancer when I first tried it, but that job has much more room for optimization.

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Let me break it down for you since you seem to need some help. Just like healers have been hearing for years, go play another job if you want something else, or even a different game if you want something that requires what I assume is your incredibly high IQ to play. The truth of the matter is that no job in this game has any flexibility, there is one rotation that you are meant to follow for every job without deviation, even the old summoner job.

Toxic casualism as its best. If something is not braindead, it has to be "tryhard", "hardcore" or "high IQ".

The statement above speaks for itself. It comes as no surprise that those who keep calling a job "braindead" are being regarded by others as more elite-style players who are taking out their frustrations on people who just want to have some fun.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Let me break it down for you since you seem to need some help. Just like healers have been hearing for years, go play another job if you want something else, or even a different game if you want something that requires what I assume is your incredibly high IQ to play. The truth of the matter is that no job in this game has any flexibility, there is one rotation that you are meant to follow for every job without deviation, even the old summoner job.

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I will be playing another job, as summoner is no longer gratifying as was described in the post you didn't read.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The statement above speaks for itself. It comes as no surprise that those who keep calling a job "braindead" are being regarded by others as more elite-style players who are taking out their frustrations on people who just want to have some fun.

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Please don't put words into peoples' mouths. Have your fun; I truly don't care what you enjoy or how you enjoy it and I don't think I'm better than anyone else because of the kind of job I enjoy. My qualm is that the jobs that I enjoy are gradually disappearing and I, as someone who has enjoyed this game for a long time, would like to keep enjoying it to a similar extent which in no small part hinges on jobs I enjoy existing.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Please don't put words into peoples' mouths. Have your fun; I truly don't care what you enjoy or how you enjoy it and I don't think I'm better than anyone else because of the kind of job I enjoy. My qualm is that the jobs that I enjoy are gradually disappearing and I, as someone who has enjoyed this game for a long time, would like to keep enjoying it to a similar extent which in no small part hinges on jobs I enjoy existing.

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They are a well-known user around here. Trust me if I say don't bother.

I tried the new Summoner. I've been a SMN main since 2.x and here are my thoughts:

I love the job fantasy. It's basically what people have been asking for from the very beginning. Not only do you get to summon these impressive-looking entities more often, you get to borrow part of their power as your own. It fulfills a lot of what people hoped for the job.

However it is rather simple. One of the main reasons people play SMN was because it's a more complex job, but later on during Shadowbringers that complexity started to become more of an annoyance, then started to fade.
This redesigned SMN is pretty much a new job itself, completely different from the previous versions that essentially recycled assets.

People are upset because they've alienated a part of the SMN playerbase that enjoys this kind of gameplay. "Go play another job" is not very helpful advice to these people because (again) SMN was, if not the only job that offered more complex gameplay out of everything, and now that option is gone.

Personally? I'm not too bothered about the changes, but I'm not thrilled about the gameplay itself either. I'm still going to main the job but it's definitely not the job a lot of old players like myself remembered enjoying.

Gonna repeat myself ad infinitum. Lower the Elemental Mastery trait from Level from 86 to 78.

Summoner honestly reminds me of FF11 Summoner aloooooooot now.

In FF11 you would bring out a summon, Cast its damage ability and buffs/debuffs, de-summon it, summon a new one and repeat. Its almost carbon copy format now.

Looks good. At last. I don't know what lack of depth is to some people, but if it is dealing with an unresponsive pet AI (remember Garuda's contagion? I do, and I don't miss it), Egi Assaults ghosting, Demis ghosting autoattacks or every fight requiring you to use the place command before pulling not to lose any uptime on Ifrit Egi? If that's the lack of depth we lack now I'm happy it is gone.

Some people calling this SMN braindead and not realizing there's actually quite a lot of room for optimization here. Ruby Ifrit is mostly the big offender in this rotation and the one that can mostly mess your flow, where you place him actually matters, a lot.

Not to mention, the new SMN can be very abusive with phase transitions because you are not required to use all the spells of a primal to jump onto another one, so say if you know there's a downtime coming you can go utterly wild with the 3 big attacks and skip many of the smallest ones. This screams flexibility to me, and when a job is flexible, it means it has a lot of room for optimization. So pretty much the opposite of what a lot of people are claiming here about "lack of depth".

From what I've noticed, it seems like single target Titan > Garuda > Ifrit but in AoE, funnily enough, it seems like Ifrit > Garuda > Titan.

The job requires more thought than you think, the difference is that optimizing it no longer requires dealing with extremely non-intuitive and glitchy commands/spells.

1. Bahamut/phoenix cd is based on on spell speed and not a strict 60cd. This allows both to drift out of 60sec and 120 buff windows that a party will provide

2. This even applies to our own buff, Searing Light. We will have to delay bahamut or delay the CD or we are waiting on both.

3. This points out the fault of carby. It hinders us severally. After every summon it returns to us so we need to position it every time we want to use searing light. Which can potentially delay our cd because carby is slow. As well depending on what summon you are using can be hetic to place carby

4. Phoenix is a dps loss for flavor and utility you cannot use when you need to

5. Ifrit design is weak for no reason and should technically be the strongest since we have to get it into melee range and two long casts. We are going to have to reserve swiftcast for this.

6. Summon animations can obscure visual mechanics.

7. Ruin 4 is very awkward and easily forgettable. It serves no point in our rotation outside of a pointless extra mobility option.

8. We have a ton of instant cast but nothing to fill the gap with. You get two festers that are immediately burned off in bahamut/phoenix

I can go on further about the leveling process and gameplay of the class if needed but I wanted to keep it focused on lvl90 issues. This is also precursory because I haven't really done my own math

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Originally Posted by Gallus

The job requires more thought than you think, the difference is that optimizing it no longer requires dealing with extremely non-intuitive and glitchy commands/spells.

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It really doesn't. What it boils down to is if you cant be in melee range don't use ifrit. If the target moving, don't use Garuda. Blow your big attacks if boss becomes un targetable anda demi will be off cooldown. That's not thinking, that's just not being an idiot

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Looks good. At last. I don't know what lack of depth is to some people, but if it is dealing with an unresponsive pet AI (remember Garuda's contagion? I do, and I don't miss it), Egi Assaults ghosting, Demis ghosting autoattacks or every fight requiring you to use the place command before pulling not to lose any uptime on Ifrit Egi? If that's the lack of depth we lack now I'm happy it is gone.

Some people calling this SMN braindead and not realizing there's actually quite a lot of room for optimization here. Ruby Ifrit is mostly the big offender in this rotation and the one that can mostly mess your flow, where you place him actually matters, a lot.

Not to mention, the new SMN can be very abusive with phase transitions because you are not required to use all the spells of a primal to jump onto another one, so say if you know there's a downtime coming you can go utterly wild with the 3 big attacks and skip many of the smallest ones. This screams flexibility to me, and when a job is flexible, it means it has a lot of room for optimization. So pretty much the opposite of what a lot of people are claiming here about "lack of depth".

From what I've noticed, it seems like single target Titan > Garuda > Ifrit but in AoE, funnily enough, it seems like Ifrit > Garuda > Titan.

The job requires more thought than you think, the difference is that optimizing it no longer requires dealing with extremely non-intuitive and glitchy commands/spells.

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We still have ghosting and delays. If knowing when you can afford a long hardcast and one GCD in melee range is "a lot of optimization" then I don't even want to think about how difficult Black Mage and Red Mage are. You probably need a IQ so high it is not available to humans, I believe.

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Originally Posted by rewd

We still have ghosting and delays. If knowing when you can afford a long hardcast and one GCD in melee range is "a lot of optimization" then I don't even want to think about how difficult Black Mage and Red Mage are. You probably need a IQ so high it is not available to humans, I believe.

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That's what I think. Like if this requires thinking, I can't imagine the brain power it takes for some other jobs. Reaper must be unplayable because you have to keep track of Death's Design or heavens a BLM having to think on when he should use his instant cast spells

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

It really doesn't. What it boils down to is if you cant be in melee range don't use ifrit. If the target moving, don't use Garuda. Blow your big attacks if boss becomes un targetable anda demi will be off cooldown. That's not thinking, that's just not being an idiot

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That's like all jobs problems. Except casting/melee phase don't apply to all jobs, it's one of the other except for Phys.Ranged.
RDM has the same problems, SGE has the same problems (Phlegma has a short range of 6y).

That's like saying "This gun is different, you have to aim!"

Opinions right? I think the job is enjoyable, and while perhaps not the most complex thing in the world, it's still thrilling and entertaining to play (for me it surely is).

If people really end up hating this SMN and it's not just a vocal minority, there's always the chance they do some big changes in the future. Remember what happened with BRD and minuet? They literally got rid of BRD hardcasts from HW to SB.

At the end of the day all they want to do is make the rotation appealing for as much people as possible, but expecting everybody to like it is impossible.

I think it'd be cool though if people kept this civil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Opinions right? I think the job is enjoyable, and while perhaps not the most complex thing in the world, it's still thrilling and entertaining to play (for me it surely is).

If people really end up hating this SMN and it's not just a vocal minority, there's always the chance they do some big changes in the future. Remember what happened with BRD and minuet? They literally got rid of BRD hardcasts from HW to SB.

At the end of the day all they want to do is make the rotation appealing for as much people as possible, but expecting everybody to like it is impossible.

I think it'd be cool though if people kept this civil.

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Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean not keeping it civil. Opinions can also be wrong. I can say that my opinion is that MCH offers the biggest room for optimization, but I'd be objectively wrong.

No one said that you can't enjoy new SMN, because - no offense - I think no one cares. We were talking about about optimization (a topic you introduced) and people replied. If you can't handle it, the problem is just yours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Opinions right? I think the job is enjoyable, and while perhaps not the most complex thing in the world, it's still thrilling and entertaining to play (for me it surely is).

If people really end up hating this SMN and it's not just a vocal minority, there's always the chance they do some big changes in the future. Remember what happened with BRD and minuet? They literally got rid of BRD hardcasts from HW to SB.

At the end of the day all they want to do is make the rotation appealing for as much people as possible, but expecting everybody to like it is impossible.

I think it'd be cool though if people kept this civil.

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Lol with how vocal dark knights mains are, I doubt any change will be made. If anything SE will dig in their heels and pretend none of the issues exist

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Lol with how vocal dark knights mains are, I doubt any change will be made. If anything SE will dig in their heels and pretend none of the issues exist

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Even the japanese forum that can let a topic sink for months are getting quite the activity.
Also, the community that asks for hard 4-man content again and again but still nothing.

There is a lot of requests that have been left unanswered, healers asking for more DPS buttons, everyone asking for a Living Dead rework...

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Even the japanese forum that can let a topic sink for months are getting quite the activity.
Also, the community that asks for hard 4-man content again and again but still nothing.

There is a lot of requests that have been left unanswered, healers asking for more DPS buttons, everyone asking for a Living Dead rework...

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Oh I'm aware. I can read some of the Japanese forums and I know they are just as pissed as we are about some things.

According to my static mate who is fluent, they aren't 100% sold on new smn yet either

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rewd

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean not keeping it civil. Opinions can also be wrong. I can say that my opinion is that MCH offers the biggest room for optimization, but I'd be objectively wrong.

No one said that you can't enjoy new SMN, because - no offense - I think no one cares. We were talking about about optimization (a topic you introduced) and people replied. If you can't handle it, the problem is just yours.

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I cannot handle others having a different opinion :P? Yet you are the one throwing "your IQ must be pitifully low if you think X is hard to play" or "nobody cares about you enjoying SMN" sort of replies o.O. You have a strange understanding of being civil :), may god have mercy upon the souls of your close friends/relatives.

I'm back here, finally nearly lv90, and now with all of the kit's functionalities...

Now I'm sure that I do really stand for a "cosmetification" of the basic Summon Carbuncle spell... As it stands, it only serves as a hindrance that impedes you to cast your personal (shield) and group (dmg buff) utilities when it's away... And surprisingly, it's away during a lot of times when you summon the other stuff.

There's nearly nothing of a pet (mechanics) in it anymore, they should at least unlink it from the mechanics of the job... A hindrance that is designed just as an obstacle to use basic tools is defnitely not interesting or engaging.