Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You can look for it yourself. I’m not going to waste time skimming over countless interviews to find something i know was said. You clearly have a lot of time on your hands considering you spent the time looking through my mounts and ranks etc. Go look for it yourself.

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No you look for it. You're claiming they said it. Prove it. You can't cause they never said that but you want to use that to support your narrative. Enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

snip.

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Yes you can get them outside of Bozja, as I told you, practically every step of the relic has a chance for you to get them in alternative ways. Alternative ways to go about it? You mean like I just said once again with Bozja, stop trying to cherrypick features of one over the other to fit your narrative. At best you were only farming NMs in Anemos because to be quite frank you were only farming NMs there. It was and still is by far the most efficient route of completing the relic. Pagos? Well they introduced light here, so sure you could pick and choose your way, but case in point you were Still doing Eureka. Then we move onto Pyros? Well we had light here too, but you were Still doing Eureka. Now we come onto Hydatos. If you could please enlighten me on a method of getting Hydatos Crystals which didn't involve only farming NMs, with a potential 20-30minute space between the pop of the last and the respawn of the first. But as is the case with this. You were still doing Eureka. - Like I said, stop cherrypicking features to fit your narrative. You aren't even taking into account the full availability of the relics and how to get them. Otherwise I can turn around and say practically your only chance of doing anything in Eureka is to farm NMs? Why? Because I said so. - Objectivity doesn't work like that, I'm sorry. Regardless of how you look at it, every single step of the relic you were, and still are just doing NMs/FATEs for

Reused assets are a core component of reducing development overhead and cost. This is quite literally pretty extensive in Stormblood too, in fact a lot of the gear itself is reused assets, either from the previous expansion or even from the selfsame expansion. For instance the gear in Hell's Lid is also reused in Castrum Abania, same with Fractal Continuum (Hard), also both shared gear. The Burn? See Baelsar's Wall and Sohm Al (Hard), also shared with Saint Moc hard. It's just as bad in literally every expansion because it allows for development time to be used elsewhere. Been the case since the inception of Heavensward.

You missed the key-point here that every single NM is locked behind a 2-hour respawn, in addition to their own conditions. Granted the latter is less important, but that is just due to nerfs, to make the content a lot more accessible. I don't know many people willing to farm the main instances when they're completely and utterly barren, do you? Besides, to farm the crystals you still need to farm the NMs which are in fact gated. They quite literally had to do that because it wasn't scalable whatsoever. No, Bozja doesn't have the selfsame issues because you don't run the risk of potentially bleeding the instance dry of things to spawn. It's a lot more fast paced than Eureka, a lot more friendly and it incorporates the duty actions much earlier on, everything spawns faster and in a much greater frequency. Aside from the fact the vast majority of it remains relative to the number of the people in the instance. Eureka on the other hand, whilst the NMs themselves remain relative, the conditions and requirements/chance for them do not. But hey, welcome to the real world where plans can change. Fact remains you can do a hell of a lot more outside of Bozja than you could with Eureka

As for the last point, being the person making the claim, you have the burden of providing the citation for that source. I would argue mechanically they're as simple now as they have ever been, and they've simply just put those resources elsewhere. Aesthetically, it's also significant upgrade. But alas this is my own personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

No you look for it. You're claiming they said it. Prove it. You can't cause they never said that but you want to use that to support your narrative.

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It's the spin they put on it when they announced it during the 5.2 Live Letter. The official 5.2 live letter video is now private so finding the exact point where they discussed it is going to be difficult. There are lots of summaries of the 5.2 live letter where it's discussed though.

https://youtu.be/dOG0u5ykYJU?t=262

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

It's the spin they put on it when they announced it during the 5.2 Live Letter. The official 5.2 live letter video is now private so finding the exact point where they discussed it is going to be difficult. There are lots of summaries of the 5.2 live letter where it's discussed though.

https://youtu.be/dOG0u5ykYJU?t=262

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They want to focus development on other areas of the game is what I'm hearing there and they certainly have done that. That was my recollection of why they were reducing the number of dungeons.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

They want to focus development on other areas of the game is what I'm hearing there.

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Something something, there's already a tremendous amount of dungeons in the game so he thinks that 1 dungeon will suffice, so they can focus on other areas of play as they feel it's more important that the number of dungeons.

Meaning something entirely different from ensuring that they make that singular dungeon have more substance. To be honest, if anything the only thing I think they should've done was increase the scope of the Expert roulette to include any dungeons from 50/60/70, and then just remove 50/60/70 roulette.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

They want to focus development on other areas of the game is what I'm hearing there and they certainly have done that. That was my recollection of why they were reducing the number of dungeons.

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At the same time he was saying there'd be no Deep Dungeon so the budget could go elsewhere too, and that they'd implement an alternative way to level...which just ended up being Bozja too.

Where did all that budget go I wonder?

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

At the same time he was saying there'd be no Deep Dungeon so the budget could go elsewhere too, and that they'd implement an alternative way to level...which just ended up being Bozja too.

Where did all that budget go I wonder?

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The new deep dungeon is in Southern Front and Zadnor. I got 6 levels on my GNB in Sourthern Front the other day leveling one of my Mateus toons there primarily so she could farm fragments and make a little cash. Dunno if I'll take her through the content or not but I've enjoyed Eureka and Bozja tremendously. She is R18 and at the 36 memory quest. I have taken quite a few of my alts though the content however and prefer not to admit to how many.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

The new deep dungeon is in Southern Front and Zadnor. I got 6 levels on my GNB in Sourthern Front the other day leveling one my my Mateus toons there primarily so she could farm fragments and make a little cash. Dunno if I'll take her through the content or not but I've enjoyed Eureka and Bozja tremendously. She is R18 and at the 36 memory quest. I have taken quite a few of my alts though the content however and prefer not to admit to how many.

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Well, that's one way to look at it. There was more to Deep Dungeon than being able to gain experience though, it's its own unique and repeatable form of content.

I'm just saying for all that was cut to supposedly go into other areas of the game, you'd think they could have invested some more into Bozja and Zadnor so the zones didn't look small, bare bones, and ugly. They could have maybe given the storyline a proper ending as well instead of a codex entry.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

Well, that's one way to look at it. There was more to Deep Dungeon than being able to gain experience though, it's its own unique and repeatable form of content.

I'm just saying for all that was cut to supposedly go into other areas of the game, you'd think they could have invested some more into Bozja and Zadnor so the zones didn't look small, bare bones, and ugly. They could have maybe given the storyline a proper ending as well instead of a codex entry.

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i love the look of the Eureka zones better but Bozja is different. I can't fault the look but there is certainly a lot more time and development spent developing all the content there including Castrum/Dalraidia and Delibrum Reginae than simply saying one venue had 4 zones and the other 2. I've also spent a lot of time recently getting clears for my main and a number of alts in DR Savage on Aether, Crystal and Chaos and that content took a lot of time and effort to develop in my opinion.

The problem is people complain that the content is stale and that we get the same stuff but when the team makes the decision to limit the number of dungeons to go and develop other content like Eureka, Bozja, Ishgard Restoration, Island Santuary and so on they get blamed for having less content when people wave the two less dungeon flag in their face.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

I'm just saying for all that was cut to supposedly go into other areas of the game,.

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I've been told but then I'm not a developer that 3 CE's in Bozja are equal in development cost/time to 3 dungeon bosses and there are a lot of them there including 6 solo duels.

While I agree the dungeons are pretty much Hallways and Corridors with set dressing and spectacle nowadays, the majority would complain they can't turn their brains off and wall to wall pull until it's over.

Boss Fights are where they can actually stretch their creative muscles and add variety.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

i love the look of the Eureka zones better but Bozja is different. I can't fault the look but there is certainly a lot more time and development spent developing all the content there including Castrum/Dalraidia and Delibrum Reginae than simply saying one venue had 4 zones and the other 2. I've also spent a lot of time recently getting clears for my main and a number of alts in DR Savage on Aether, Crystal and Chaos and that content took a lot of time and effort to develop in my opinion.

The problem is people complain that the content is stale and that we get the same stuff but when the team makes the decision to limit the number of dungeons to go and develop other content like Eureka, Bozja, Ishgard Restoration, Island Santuary and so on they get blamed for having less content when people wave the two less dungeon flag in their face.



I've been told but then I'm not a developer that 3 CE's in Bozja are equal in development cost/time to 3 dungeon bosses and there are a lot of them there including 6 solo duels.

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Why is it always this or that. Why not maintain the quantity of current content, while also creating new pieces of content. The game has only been growing, so there are no excuses about budget.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Why is it always this or that. Why not maintain the quantity of current content, while also creating new pieces of content. The game has only been growing, so there are no excuses about budget.

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I don't write the budget and it would be great if they in fact did increase the budget. The surge of new players should warrant that the directors in charge of the money see that and increase the budget accordingly.

I will say that dungeons aren't the where with all that some people want to make them out to be. I may be wrong but I suspect that the development team sees that many people, your truly included, run many of those dungeons for Main Story and then don't go back.

I may be wrong but didn't they say they were considering making some harder 4 man content? They say a lot of things so who knows. I'm still waiting for my alts to be able to share a house and they said they were looking at that too. I also think from what i've read/been told that we aren't going to get another Eureka or Bozja in Endwalker which personally saddens me because i love that content but if that's true then those funds should be going somewhere else.

I suppose we'll see but yeah the game should be getting more money to do a lot more. They are certainly making more.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Squadron, a more complex system than the joke that Trusts are, works in most ARR dungeons, which do not share the crappy design of ShB dungeons.

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Not really. It uses a clunky command system and the NPCs are immune to the mechanics. Trusts are much better then Squadrons in my opinion.

The classic dungeons are fun. I wouldn't say better. The boss mechanics in new dungeons are much more intense then the classic ones. There are also a lot of misses in classic. Grabbing a sandwich while the tank blows up the bomb next to the boss, killing a red crystal connected to a purple line, turning off lanterns or plugging sewers, etc. It isn't exactly Dark Souls difficulty or Zelda creativity. And it's trivial after you have run it a few times, and frustrating when you have to relive the learning with new players.

Sure, difficulty in general might be a bit low, and as I said a hard mode should be in the works, but adding more gimicks to navigate hampers accessibility and systems like Trusts. In my opinion anyway. To each their own.

Trusts appear super clever, but there's an easy pattern to them. Whenever you engage a boss it seems there's set movements and actions they do each time. At the first boss of Amaurot for some reason, every time one person will die. I was a healer when I did it and would resurrect them - and they would fail to perform the ongoing mechanic because when they died, the chain of movement was interrupted and now they can't do anything about it. They resume being "normal" once the mechanic ends only. I don't remember right now but there was a DPS check to that boss as well which made resurrecting them almost necessary.

I know it sounds convoluted, but imagine you're doing King Behemoth with 3 others. One of them - most likely a DD - always dies to something right before you have to hide for his one-shot, and that's also the same moment Behemoth began casting it too. You are the healer and by instinct, you send out a resurrection to the dead person. They are alive when the cast is still going, but for some reason don't budge from their spot. They might be damaging an add, damaging Behemoth, anything but doing the movement to hide behind a rock. That's a Trust member.

Of course you could learn to work around them and it seems in Endwalker they will be dumbed down some more on purpose. But it's very bad habits. There's a reason dungeons seem to be built around them. They're a great idea but are deliberately put down so that they don't overshadow doing content with living, breathing people.

I guess they at least move for mechanics, which Squads don't seem to do at all. So true, relatively speaking Trusts are better.

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Originally Posted by Drakonic

Dungeons have become linear corridors where the trash are meaningless and mechanics are regurgitated over and over again. There are always a few flourishes that make the dungeon feel exciting and fresh, but these are always visual: the whale ride in Anyder; the dragon ride in Pagl'than; the vibrant colors in the lava cave in Matoya's Relict. None of these are gameplay elements.

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Jepp. This is one thing i do not like in FF14: the dungeon design. It is always a big linear corridor with three arenas in it. You know one dungeon then you know them all.

They could copy the dungeon design from WoW classic. The dungeons there felt way more organic and natural. But they were also bigger.

Cheers

the issue is that tons of dungeons are 1 time thing , 2-3 at best if u like to run alts or level trusts...

lvl X1-X9 are dead , only cap dungeons matter and for that patch cycle then got relegated to a huge roulette....2 dungeons are added and u run that for 3 months...

Dungeons in FFXIV should be EXPANDED but devs think otherwise sadly because 4 man cant be hard...boooh

ppl are hungry for 4 man content that matters.

And who doesnt love huge pulls and blast away , once u are raiding , u barely use AoE skills...and thats too bad.

they can create dungeons that have multiple paths and the one is randomized , add some jumping here and there , more TRAPS please, easy puzzles that make 4 players work togheter because if 1 player can solve its not fun .there are tons of options

having to step in a spot , light something , move blocks in order , water puzzles , rails ,2 players 1 side 2 on the other to open a door , FFXIV has the engine and tech to make those

while the first 10 times is fun , then not and i agree with that , it makes ppl even talk to each other (gasp) , stop the walll to wall and take a breath , instead of rush ahead for more pulls / bosses.

I dont want max ilvl gear from 4 mans it wouldnt make sense , but glamour rewards ,some gil , minions, mounts , hell the whole new pvp system would have been amazing as dungeon pve system if it looks like a path...that can be expanded.

get 3 friends/lsmates and do some dungeons for fun, and get rewarded for it , tomes that matter have cap and nowdays is fater to run a hunt train than repeat the DR expert (btw is even a roulette with just 2 dungeons?)

This is in a way a good thing. The reason WoW fell to FFXIV this year is that the devs of WoW has for years been catering to Mythic raiders at the expense of the rest of its original player base and all other content including community content. As soon as a new patch gets released in that game, all previous content gets immediately made obsolete and nobody wants to play it anymore. FFXIV is more focused on story telling and community content that makes the world feel alive. On my server all the starting cities are packed full of people instead of ghost towns, since people don't feel the need to just sit in Eulmore all day or to only login during raid night or to tick some boxes so they can raid. I prefer the pretty looking dungeons to what WoW's had in recent years, thanks.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Trusts appear super clever, but there's an easy pattern to them. Whenever you engage a boss it seems there's set movements and actions they do each time. At the first boss of Amaurot for some reason, every time one person will die. I was a healer when I did it and would resurrect them - and they would fail to perform the ongoing mechanic because when they died, the chain of movement was interrupted and now they can't do anything about it. They resume being "normal" once the mechanic ends only. I don't remember right now but there was a DPS check to that boss as well which made resurrecting them almost necessary.

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You don’t even need to get to the bosses to see how flawed their script are. Just start any dungeons with them, preferably as a tank or healer. Do a wall pull. The moment multiple trash pack start casting AoEs in succession then we’ll easily notice how these Trust AI do not do a good job with avoiding the subsequent ones. They will move out from the first AoE just fine, but anything that’s cast few seconds after that first AoE doesn’t seem to ‘register’. So yes, they will stand in the bads cause it’s not within the first AoE’s danger zone. Or if you interrupt/stun the mob from casting the AoE, they make no effort to adjust to this turn of event (i.e. continue attacking) and just stand still as if the AoE actually goes off. This is why Amaurot’s first boss is a bane to their existence half of the time.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

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Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of this. I just have concerns about practicality. The inevitable result is that people will always go for the most efficient route of completing a dungeon. If people don't need the explore something, then they will rarely bother to do such. I can pretty much use Haukke Manor as a feeble example of this. You had some areas that you didn't need to explore, but exploring them would open up the avenue for some good drops including the Manor Varnish and Fine Wax. When it actually dropped from those dungeons. Yet people would ignore it despite the fact it would only add a minute at most to the dungeon. People will always avoid what they don't need to do. Such things work well on paper, but in execution will go largely ignored by people if they don't need to do it.

Something like this, with heavy interaction potential would be suited to the Gold Saucer to be frank. When you run a dungeon once or twice, it's great. Beyond that it's inconvenient. Outside of this the only way I see it working is if it becomes exclusively premade content strictly for a group of friends. - Incorporating something like this into the duty finder with random folk and something that gets put into the duty roulette will only lead people to moaning (Assuming they would ever make creativity and innovative dungeons the norm). People already cry with something as meek The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak, Aurum Vale and Amaurot, let alone where they bother to be creative.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of this. I just have concerns about practicality. The inevitable result is that people will always go for the most efficient route of completing a dungeon. If people don't need the explore something, then they will rarely bother to do such. I can pretty much use Haukke Manor as a feeble example of this. You had some areas that you didn't need to explore, but exploring them would open up the avenue for some good drops including the Manor Varnish and Fine Wax. When it actually dropped from those dungeons. Yet people would ignore it despite the fact it would only add a minute at most to the dungeon. People will always avoid what they don't need to do. Such things work well on paper, but in execution will go largely ignored by people if they don't need to do it.

Something like this, with heavy interaction potential would be suited to the Gold Saucer to be frank. When you run a dungeon once or twice, it's great. Beyond that it's inconvenient. Outside of this the only way I see it working is if it becomes exclusively premade content strictly for a group of friends. - Incorporating something like this into the duty finder with random folk and something that gets put into the duty roulette will only lead people to moaning (Assuming they would ever make creativity and innovative dungeons the norm). People already cry with something as meek The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak, Aurum Vale and Amaurot, let alone where they bother to be creative.

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Yea I completely agree with this. Dungeons with crazy secrets and kooky mechanics can be fun sure, but not when you're doing your Roulette. These things are best relegated to the Gold Saucer where it's a little less serious and I potentially can spend free time there if I choose.

Believe it or not folks, some of the people playing this game have lives outside of it and don't want to have to treat it as a second job. If you're into a video game being a second job you can certainly treat FF14 that way but don't try to make the devs force that on the rest of us. If you absolutely wanna play an MMO that's a second job there's a ton of Korean MMO's out there, and if those are not sadistic enough for your masochist tastes then there's Eve Online: Excel Spreadsheets The Multiplayer Game.

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Originally Posted by iheartlove42

Yea I completely agree with this. Dungeons with crazy secrets and kooky mechanics can be fun sure, but not when you're doing your Roulette. These things are best relegated to the Gold Saucer where it's a little less serious and I potentially can spend free time there if I choose.

Believe it or not folks, some of the people playing this game have lives outside of it and don't want to have to treat it as a second job. If you're into a video game being a second job you can certainly treat FF14 that way but don't try to make the devs force that on the rest of us. If you absolutely wanna play an MMO that's a second job there's a ton of Korean MMO's out there, and if those are not sadistic enough for your masochist tastes then there's Eve Online: Excel Spreadsheets The Multiplayer Game.

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To be honest I'm not even talking the extent or issues of 'second jobs', and nor do I think that would be a concern, unless you quite literally had to do it on a routine basis for whatever arbitrary reason they would decide.

I just have a greater issue in the fact I strongly believe that people want this stuff, but want it to be without the consequences of incorporating it in the first place. With more difficult mechanics comes an even greater wipe factor. Similarly the inclusion of more personal responsibility comes the greater chance for wiping. People don't like wiping to something they cannot control. If it were the case that people wanted more difficult regular content, or content that you could simply just not burn down, then I would argue that people wouldn't be crying because the potential of wiping in Aurum Vale is pretty good with a sprout group. Similarly people wouldn't be crying that Toto-Rak has slime that deliberately slows a player. Nor would people be crying that Amaurot takes a while, nor would they be overjoyed when it was shifted out of expert roulette. Granted you could argue that these people aren't necessarily always the same. But in many cases they are the exact same groups of people. Or at the very least would be the same group of people that complains about players not conforming to a baseline.

TL;DR Harder content has a greater chance for wiping, and a lot of people want the former without the latter because it is inconvenient which simply won't happen, ever. This place would quickly become a cesspool of people complaining if they got harder dungeon content which presented the chance of wiping.

It was hard enough getting a group to do the optional 'hidden boss' for the alchemy profession quest in WoW ... what makes anyone think that the 'fun' instance with multiple pathing and optional bosses is going to devolve into anything except running through a single corridor to the end boss during a roulette?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It was hard enough getting a group to do the optional 'hidden boss' for the alchemy profession quest in WoW ... what makes anyone think that the 'fun' instance with multiple pathing and optional bosses is going to devolve into anything except running through a single corridor to the end boss during a roulette?

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i mean they could do it like how they did palace of dead or something. It would break up the same old for a bit. And give out different rewards for it. There was a quest in WKC1/2 where you gathered different items and once you grab said items then the boss changed.

or take from 1.0( from what i heard) The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak had a different final boss when taking a different path

Add weekly challenges to encourage people to take the path less travel.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It was hard enough getting a group to do the optional 'hidden boss' for the alchemy profession quest in WoW ... what makes anyone think that the 'fun' instance with multiple pathing and optional bosses is going to devolve into anything except running through a single corridor to the end boss during a roulette?

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which is what we are doing now, I dont understand this side of the argument. Give us more options this will literally not hurt the casual crowd what so ever

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Originally Posted by Jirah

which is what we are doing now, I dont understand this side of the argument. Give us more options this will literally not hurt the casual crowd what so ever

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having more options are bad /s

Shame the first will probably fade away now and never be used again

You're not wrong OP. It would be nice to see some dungeon mechanics that make the environment or bosses more interactive like the old days.

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Originally Posted by FusiaRain

Shame the first will probably fade away now and never be used again

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I think having some content on the First would be much appreciated. The Deep Dungeon could be there as there are multiple places that would be good settings - Ronkan Ruins, Laxen Loft, and Amarout.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

which is what we are doing now, I dont understand this side of the argument. Give us more options this will literally not hurt the casual crowd what so ever

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Originally Posted by Axxion

having more options are bad /s

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If I learned one thing about the FFXIV community, is that players want to get things done as quickly and efficiently as possible. While a dungeon with puzzles is definitely favorable, when players are presented with either choosing dungeons with more effort vs ones that are easier to complete, they're going to choose the latter. The biggest proof of this is whenever there's a Moogle Tome Event, almost everyone chooses the same 1 or 2 instances to get the most number of tomes in the shortest amount of time. Varity be damned. So, while making dungeons with branching pathways and puzzles is good during your first playthrough, running it daily, getting sick of it, then abandoning it for easier dungeons, is just a waste of resources. I see the scenario with that:

1st run: "Wow, that was a really fun dungeon. We had to work together, get the right number of items, and figure out how to find the correct pathway to the bosses. I really like the variety of options here."
100th run: "They need to give us an option to opt out of this part. I don't feel like carrying every group and this place EASILY could've taken 10 minutes to finish with just 1 pathway. I'm sick of these puzzles."

or

*Enters duty*
"Oh, it's this place."
*Leaves duty*

Style > substance is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by EverQuest

Style > substance is the way to go.

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Lul.

Training dummies that look like Bahamut are indeed fun and engaging.

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

If I learned one thing about the FFXIV community, is that players want to get things done as quickly and efficiently as possible. While a dungeon with puzzles is definitely favorable, when players are presented with either choosing dungeons with more effort vs ones that are easier to complete, they're going to choose the latter. The biggest proof of this is whenever there's a Moogle Tome Event, almost everyone chooses the same 1 or 2 instances to get the most number of tomes in the shortest amount of time. Varity be damned. So, while making dungeons with branching pathways and puzzles is good during your first playthrough, running it daily, getting sick of it, then abandoning it for easier dungeons, is just a waste of resources. I see the scenario with that:

1st run: "Wow, that was a really fun dungeon. We had to work together, get the right number of items, and figure out how to find the correct pathway to the bosses. I really like the variety of options here."
100th run: "They need to give us an option to opt out of this part. I don't feel like carrying every group and this place EASILY could've taken 10 minutes to finish with just 1 pathway. I'm sick of these puzzles."

or

*Enters duty*
"Oh, it's this place."
*Leaves duty*

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I would atrribute that due to having to run outdated, boring content.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

I would atrribute that due to having to run outdated, boring content.

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No offense, but what are you expecting? This is an ongoing, online game, where the content was made to be replayed over and over. Even Wanderer's Palace was fresh, new content at one point. And eventually Endwalker will become "outdated, boring content."

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

Same goes for FF14. I've done every dungeon in the game scaled down throughout playing and I can safely say I see nothing in the older dungeon design that would've ever made them complex.

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Allow me to introduce you to the Nanawa Mines:

https://i.imgur.com/15UMwzc.jpg

Or the Mun-Tuy Cellars:

https://i.imgur.com/0zeGF6V.jpg

The original Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold weren't nearly so complicated as those two, but the 1.x versions were certainly worlds more complicated (and larger) than their current incarnations.

Now, I'm not saying that these were good dungeon designs -- witness my own posts in this thread from a few months back about the flaws in 1.x dungeon design -- but I definitely think they count as complex.

HOWEVER, as noted, people generally didn't go through the entirety of those dungeons, at least in my experience. They tended to figure out what the optimal path was and then take that path, consistently, avoiding all the side passages and optional stuff.

The original Aurum Vale had three potential diremite bosses to fight -- three variations on the boss currently there. And if you were good, you could get every photocell and open every pathway and fight all three diremites and get loot from each! But basically everyone I know ended up taking one specific route -- the shortest one -- to get from the entrance to a specific diremite as quickly as possible, get the loot from that, and leaving.

Yeah, single hallways are more accessible. But we've also demonstrated that, as a playerbase, if the devs give us a complicated dungeon we'll figure out a way to turn it into a single hallway full of enemies leading to a boss fight anyway. Because that's the fastest way to get the shiny prize at the end, and we as a playerbase seem kind of fixated on optimizing our instanced duties.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of this. I just have concerns about practicality. The inevitable result is that people will always go for the most efficient route of completing a dungeon. If people don't need the explore something, then they will rarely bother to do such. I can pretty much use Haukke Manor as a feeble example of this.

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See above.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

Allow me to introduce you to the Nanawa Mines:

https://i.imgur.com/15UMwzc.jpg

Or the Mun-Tuy Cellars:

https://i.imgur.com/0zeGF6V.jpg

The original Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold weren't nearly so complicated as those two, but the 1.x versions were certainly worlds more complicated (and larger) than their current incarnations.

Now, I'm not saying that these were good dungeon designs -- witness my own posts in this thread from a few months back about the flaws in 1.x dungeon design -- but I definitely think they count as complex.

HOWEVER, as noted, people generally didn't go through the entirety of those dungeons, at least in my experience. They tended to figure out what the optimal path was and then take that path, consistently, avoiding all the side passages and optional stuff.

The original Aurum Vale had three potential diremite bosses to fight -- three variations on the boss currently there. And if you were good, you could get every photocell and open every pathway and fight all three diremites and get loot from each! But basically everyone I know ended up taking one specific route -- the shortest one -- to get from the entrance to a specific diremite as quickly as possible, get the loot from that, and leaving.

Yeah, single hallways are more accessible. But we've also demonstrated that, as a playerbase, if the devs give us a complicated dungeon we'll figure out a way to turn it into a single hallway full of enemies leading to a boss fight anyway. Because that's the fastest way to get the shiny prize at the end, and we as a playerbase seem kind of fixated on optimizing our instanced duties.



See above.

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And that's literally THE reason why our dungeons have been hallways. It's not because the devs are "lazy," but there's no point in making a complex dungeon, where the playerbase will just stick to the fastest route. Yeah, it'd have more options, it's a waste of resources to design so many routes that go unused

Edit: And to add to this, this is also why AST's cards had become so streamlined. Its been said a million times, but I'll say it again: The constant fishing for Balance + Aoe and nothing else has resulted us getting just that

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

No offense, but what are you expecting? This is an ongoing, online game, where the content was made to be replayed over and over. Even Wanderer's Palace was fresh, new content at one point. And eventually Endwalker will become "outdated, boring content."

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Not create events that revolve around running years old content?

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Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

And that's literally THE reason why our dungeons have been hallways. It's not because the devs are "lazy," but there's no point in making a complex dungeon, where the playerbase will just stick to the fastest route. Yeah, it'd have more options, it's a waste of resources to design so many routes that go unused

Edit: And to add to this, this is also why AST's cards had become so streamlined. Its been said a million times, but I'll say it again: The constant fishing for Balance + Aoe and nothing else has resulted us getting just that

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Part of it is japanese level design. It's terrible. Also, Blackrock Depths from vanilla WoW is to this day, one of the best dungeons created. There is a point. To have a fun and engaging experience. Granted, a good portion of the gaming community of today has been conditioned to only enjoy something, if it gives that dopamine kick (tacked on reward). Not for running the content itself.

Halo Infinite is having this discussion right now. You have those, that play the game because they enjoy it, regardless of what the cosmetic/progression system is. Because they enjoy playing the game. Then you have those, that can only find enjoyment in the game, if the progression and cosmetics is right.

Another example is Choreghast *Torghast* from WoW. The content itself sucked, but people ran it because it was the only way to upgrade/acquire legendaries. Make the content have people want to waste their lives on it, as opposed to having it feel like boring chore.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Not create events that revolve around running years old content?

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Tbf, by the time you get to where those tasks are given reward (via relic quests or whatnot), the endgame content would feel just as loathesome for having been so often repeated.

The ideal solution to me would be to just make the old content feel less crippled by comparison, such by up-scaling it instead of level syncing down to it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Tbf, by the time you get to where those tasks are given reward (via relic quests or whatnot), the endgame content would feel just as loathesome for having been so often repeated.

The ideal solution to me would be to just make the old content feel less crippled by comparison, such by up-scaling it instead of level syncing down to it.

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That would be cool. Or at least make it so we don't lose abilities upon entering a lower level area.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

The original Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold weren't nearly so complicated as those two, but the 1.x versions were certainly worlds more complicated (and larger) than their current incarnations.

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Those weren't dungeons/instances. They were just zones with higher level mobs than their surrounding areas.

Sastasha was probably the best example of these as "delves", as mob levels climbed rapidly, iirc, as you went deeper down. (Again, not an instance -- just a zone.)