It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

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Originally Posted by 3c-33

Your rights end where mine begin.

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Because having those pixels on my screen look different than you intended is a complete violation of your rights. *rolls eyes*

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I think the critical point I want to make against people saying "others shouldn't be forced to look at your glamour" is that there's a difference between forcing that and demanding to be the centre of attention, versus just not wanting your appearance to be altered by someone else.

As I wrote in more detail below, I would rather have my character not seen at all, than seen wearing something I don't want them to wear.

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While I understand this desire, it is an unreasonable expectation with any sort of client side rendered graphics on an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

At the core of this argument there's a question of how a person thinks about player-characters in this game. The way I think about it, every one of those characters is a "real person", or directly representing one, in a communal world.

Your character does not stop representing "you" when they appear on my screen. My character does not stop representing "me" when I appear on your screen. I'm not in "your game", we're in a shared game.

An analogy in the real world would be photographs. An image of a person in a photo is still thought of as "that person", and the image is not detached from the person's identity even if what happens to the image does not affect the real person in any way.

Right now it is technically possible for someone to take that photograph and then edit it so the person appears to be wearing something they wouldn't want to wear. They may never know it happened, but that doesn't mean they would (or should) be okay with the thought of someone doing it to them.

Now imagine if Facebook announced a new feature that would automatically alter what people appear to be wearing in photos when they display on your screen. It's only affecting you! Nobody needs to know that their image was changed! ....yeah, I can't see that going down well.

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Real life comparisons don't hold up since the real life consequences for altering someones likeness and misrepresenting them are actual crimes, whereas your online character (as customized as you may think it is) is a piecemeal of pre-generated resources and could never really be used to represent you in any legal way.

Real life alterations and misrepresentations have legal basis. Your ingame avatar is like a custom car at best, there are probably quite a few characters out there who look just like you.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I would quite seriously be happier for people to turn my character entirely invisible than to have them displayed in an outfit that I don't want them seen in.

A fuzzy 64-bit version of the outfit I picked is still the outfit I picked, just in a different quality of game. It is still conveying my choice and not overriding it.

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You are still being represented in a different way than you chose or wished. I'm not sure if you've ever seen truly all low settings but it's pretty horrid.


The problem with your solution being if you're in someones party and they cannot see you, actual gameplay gets affected. However if you wanted an option where if someone is "normalizing" glamours you wish to not be visible, audible or partyable. I don't have a problem with that addition since people already request ways to exclude themselves from interacting with certain other players.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

To be fair, it is more jarring in cutscenes and I wish there was a simple solution that doesn't involve interfering with people's glamour.

The only solution I would personally be happy with is swapping out the entire character for a generic one, at which point it is no longer "my character forced to wear a different outfit" but playing a different character created by someone else, wearing what that character was designed to wear. But from the way some people complain about our occasional roleplaying interludes, I assume not everyone would be happy with that approach.

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Making peoples characters look like generic representations is the whole point. If the system HAS to swap out your face as well to make you happy that's a reasonable compromise.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

If they did that...Then what would be the point of glamours? Like really lol

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It's so you can enjoy it. I don't glamour myself for others enjoyment. I glamour outfits that I enjoy. Imagine wearing clothes that other people like instead of wearing clothes that you like.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

If they did that...Then what would be the point of glamours? Like really lol

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I like to make my character look a certain way because I like that appearance. Not for anyone elses gaze. Compliments are nice of course but they're the last thing I'm going for when I sit there and piece together a new look.

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Originally Posted by 3c-33

Now my reasons for not wanting it? Resources, self expression (it's not that deep), immersion breaking mismatched gear, it's already lore friendly (the path to rhalgrs reach literally has a giant boulder illusion in front of it to keep people out, and there's plenty of other areas where glamour is brought up in the msq.) People will work around it and run around in the glamour items themselves. Also, glamour is already a huge part of the game, not only is there glamour on the mogstation, but it would render making literally any of the armor in this game pointless. Why design an entirely new look for new dungeon gear if it's always gonna look like the AF gear anyway? Why create mogstation glamour if it's not getting used? It's backpeddaling.

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Resources are arguable. This would be settled by the actual demand for the feature. If this is something next to nobody wants then fine, don't waste the precious SQUEENIX DEV HOURS™.

Self Expression. This removes no self expression other than needing to know that absolutely everyone has to "experience" your particular expression if you're in their party or on their screen.

Immersion breaking mismatched gear would be solved with normalized job AF or generic placeholder glamours. This also solves people directly wearing unglamoured pieces. You could also drop entire placeholder character models if people cannot stand the idea of "their" character in clothes they didn't pick.

Lore excuses are lame, I agree.

People who like glamour or enjoy not looking default don't have to use it. Glamour would still be a thing for a lot of the playerbase and new designs would be used. I don't understand why this isn't obvious. It's a proposed option, not a new gamewide enforced thing.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Bard performance is audible and can be heard in all directions whether you like it or not.

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You can mute it.
https://i.imgur.com/iq2ZPMz.jpg

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

If they did that...Then what would be the point of glamours? Like really lol

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Just a personal opinion: but for me it's because while I make glams for my characters; I do it because I make them look how I want them to look and couldn't care less if someone else cares about what my character looks like.

It won't hurt to have this option- I'm entirely for it. There is no real negative to having a toggle button that allows you to see someones glamour or instead their armour.
I personally think the modern-styled outfits/ noctis' hot topic outfit ruin the aesthetic of ffxiv and would love to stop seeing it.

I'm in favour of having a glamour toggle on/off button so I don't have to see other peoples ridiculous glams- if I want to see peoples great collabs, I go to eorzea collection to see a collection of glams that actually look cohesive and pleasing to the eye

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

I don't understand why people are so caught up in what others characters are wearing. When I'm running content I barely even notice what race other players are, let alone what they're wearing.

I would rather devs not waste time on such a function when there are plenty of other issues that need addressing.

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Same here! The only time I'd actually notice others' glamours is during roleplay, dungeon time, or doing my crafting in the major cities, etc. Otherwise my attentions are focused on my MSQ's and FATEs and stuff.

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Originally Posted by kujoestars

I for one am all for getting rid of job restrictions on glamour because if we can have tanks glamming cloth (heck one of my FC officers sometimes tanks in the maid outfit, hahahahhahhaha) or going mostly naked (not that I mind because I’ve seen some beautifully hilarious ones - shout out to “Moist Crevasse” and their Highlander male WAR in pink undies, thighboots, and anime pigtail hair when I did my first run of Praetorium XD) we can have monks and dancers in armor or whatever. Not like they’re wearing the real items anyway.

And frankly some joblocks make no sense if it’s literally the same material, so yeah.....

*grumbles about the new steampunk set not giving monks the awesome cap so I can properly live my JoJo dreams*

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This is definitely something I can get behind! It's time for all of us to rise against these strict dress codes and run wild in whatever threads we want! >:3

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Originally Posted by Wiccan026

Yes this would waste resources and they are far better elsewhere... but you're also imposing your will on someone else.

Someone didn't want to wear there gear as is and so they glamoured over it (if you take a picture, a video) and their clothes are not shown glamoured in your picture you're impacting them (where as is if you don't want their showing glamour in the picture/video you just choose to make sure their not in it, thus not impacting them at all).

Seriously some people need to calm down.

Also the logic stating that leading males wear clothes (Cloud, Squall, Zidane) in general most games put clothes on guys and try to make girls as revealing as possible, in almost every case because let's face it, it can help sell games.

Lulu anyone? A good portion of the spheredressphres of X-2? Fran? Oh and their is precedence for all the guys wearing dresses with that logic as well, Cloud from VII says hi.

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Exactly! As they say, sex sells. It's a practice that's been proven to work since forever lol

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

Yes, I Co-lead a glamour based FC. We have glamour events often, and I love the galmour system.

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Uh...you help lead a glam-based fc but you want to be able to turn off everyone's glams.

Something here doesn't add up.

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

When I mentioned "I know people who Glam dresses on guys and all of them, literally every single one of them does it to troll,' it's SPECIFICALLy, BECAUSE I lead a glamour based FC and people on my server know us to be fashionista. (So most people who are very serious about glam hang out with us)

I do not hate glamour. But I do hate that I cannot choose to hide player glamour, when so often player glamour is used to rile, upset and troll people.

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I don't assume all servers are the same but I get the feeling you're greatly exaggerating how many people troll with glams because when you see even one it bothers you tremendously. You're acting like this is some massive problem and I seriously doubt your data centre is drastically different to mine when it comes to glam.

I'm starting to think this is a case of excellent trolling or glam elitism.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

So if I, as a man IRL, decide to wear a thong with my junk nearly hanging out, and forcing you to look at it, it's all good right? That's just my self-expression. In a dungeon or similar fights, you are basically forced to look upon the person in the obnoxious clothing.

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Sure if you want to. It's your body, not mine. Do what you want with it. As long as you're hurting no one it doesn't matter to me. If I don't like it how it looks I can just look away and get on with my life.

A person wearing a thong isn't exactly on the list of my top ten nightmares.

Also to say you're forced to look at a person in a dungeon is very much inflating the intensity of the issue. Unless you do combat zoomed in on other people's characters?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Ah, I was wondering why some of the responses to this thread were so volatile. A certain Twitter blog devoted to taking posts out of context and stirring up outrage decided to target this thread with the usual deceptive approach, essentially encouraging followers of the blog to brigade it as a consequence.

I urge everybody to be very cautious, since the FFXIV Twitter crowd has a portion of very volatile individuals who like to band together to harass and send death threats to those who dare to post something that they dislike.

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If I'm thinking of the same account, then it is 100% false that the twitter account encourages people to be unpleasant on the forums. The tweets do not say the posts or threads they're from, nor do they say anything other than actual quotes. In other words they're not endorsing anything.

If a person wants to figure out where a quote comes from they would have to comb the forums to find it. If someone feels strongly enough about something to do that, that's their personal choice.

I notice that your main complaint is topless men in thongs, not the millions of miqo'te and auri female characters wearing barely anything dyed as close to skin colour as they can manage.

Weakling.

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Originally Posted by AcaciaTyrannia

I've played them most. Cloud, Squall, Tera, Zidane didn't spend the ENTIRE game fighting the forces of opposition in a string bikini with summer sunglasses. it makes your character look stupid. And I'd like the option to hide it. That way you can "Express yourself" all you want, but people who want a more final fantasy/serious experience don't have to look at ridiculous characters that don't make any sense.

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If a Bikini is good enough for Yuna, Rikku, Paine and Serah, it’s good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

You can mute it.

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You failed to read the rest of that post didn't you.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

The toggle option should just be putting a blindfold on your character to completely blacken your screen, now the OP won't be able to see anyone's glamour and it would work in the same vein as putting earplugs in for muting Bard performance.

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There, I made it easy for you.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

Because having those pixels on my screen look different than you intended is a complete violation of your rights. *rolls eyes*

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Fantastic cherry picking here without reading anything else on what I've been saying.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

If I'm thinking of the same account, then it is 100% false that the twitter account encourages people to be unpleasant on the forums. The tweets do not say the posts or threads they're from, nor do they say anything other than actual quotes. In other words they're not endorsing anything.

If a person wants to figure out where a quote comes from they would have to comb the forums to find it. If someone feels strongly enough about something to do that, that's their personal choice.

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You're likely thinking of the same account, unless there's multiple. It isn't false, either - I've had death threats posted in response to voicing my dislike of Alisae after that blog decided, quite bizarrely, that expressing a distaste of a particular character is worthy of being quoted there.

Whoever happens to run that blog knows exactly what they're doing, they simply hide behind Twitter's lack of desire to moderate such things appropriately. In the present day I don't feel it is unfair to point out how Twitter also boasts a lot of very unhinged individuals who make it a point to track down people for 'wrong think' and seek to inflict harm and abuse upon them.

Luckily Square Enix take such threats seriously, so even if Twitter refuses to step in the GM's have helpfully dealt with the unhinged individuals who sought me out in-game to threaten me.

I keep an eye on the blog these days to help warn others of the dangers should they be quoted themselves, which is why I brought it up here.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

You failed to read the rest of that post didn't you.

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I did read through your post, but I took the entire second part of the post as sarcastic and absent-mindedly focused on the first bit. "...and it would work in the same vein as putting earplugs in for muting Bard performance" did not exactly state to me that you were aware of the performance mute at first glance after the blindfold bit. Sorry for that.

@OP, This negates the whole point of Glamour. God forbid we could hide all "attire" like that in real life... We'd walk around seeing everyone in their birthday suits...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

You're likely thinking of the same account, unless there's multiple. It isn't false, either - I've had death threats posted in response to voicing my dislike of Alisae after that blog decided, quite bizarrely, that expressing a distaste of a particular character is worthy of being quoted there.

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Well what I am following is not a blog, it's literally just a twitter account. We may be talking about two different accounts.

There isn't even a link to additional sites or social media platforms they use. Literally just a link to the forums, likely to provide context as to where all the content comes from. It even says to not go after the posters.

The responses to the posts are also generally quite tame. Usually just joking about them, agreeing with them or memes. I have't spotted anyone being particularly nasty so far. Sometimes a handful get too ragey but that happens in these forums too. That happens everywhere. I actually like that account because the crowd it attracts seem mostly chilled out.

And if we are talking about the same account, then I respectfully disagree that they're endorsing any kind of abuse. They only repeat what someone else said, and they keep the source anonymous. Sometimes people figure out on their own where the quote comes from, sometimes everyone is completely puzzled. If someone hates a tweet enough that they want to send death threats, that's the person making the decision to do so. Not the account encouraging it.

I wouldn't touch that account with a ten foot pole if I saw they actively encouraged any kind of abuse.

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Originally Posted by 3c-33

Fantastic cherry picking here without reading anything else on what I've been saying.

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No, I read it all. I just didn't feel like telling you that you're wrong on every little thing. :/

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Originally Posted by Sathona

Im gonna agree for the same reason Theodric mentioned, the first time i did the ShB final MSQ trial the tank was wearing the 'Pepega' outfit and i just felt weird seeing him in a cutscene in the conclusion of 5.0s story.
Dungeons as well etc, just no man.

Does not hurt anyone anyway having that option :)

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Then why didn't you just run them with trusts if it bothers you that badly? Don't have to worry about kero outfits on tanks ruining your "immersion" in the dungeons, if Thancred has to set an example for Minifilia and wear his default stuff.

Why do people care about this so much, it's an MMO with multiple people playing in different outfits because they have different tastes. If you don't want that, I think you may be possibly playing the wrong genre of RPGs? It's honestly just like playing an offline JRPG when people change the player characters outfits in their playthroughs. Don't like it? Then don't pay attention to it, simple as that. You never see other player characters in cutscenes for story like in 2.0, you only now see them in dungeon entering and victory cutscenes.

Also to implement an option like that would cause much unneeded stress for the server to load different different outfits from the glamours they have on, it's not as simple as "well they can do it lolz". This is also especially hefty to handle for cutscene processing when entering dungeons, increasing the load times for entering them, and open world. If you people want 0 dungeons per patch and late patches in general for that to happen, then please, go ask. However, don't complain when we get less content for a QoL change that may help like 2% of community that actually care about this.

If you don't want other people to ruin your immersion, go play a single player game or find people to do "Lore-friendly" runs. I can understand wanting to be able to hide glamours if they effected load time like on a poorly optimized game like Vindictus where it takes a minute to load the armor/costumes of everyone in the zone on a good computer, but on this game, doesn't seem necessary.

I mean, I'm a gay male who dislikes seeing scantily clad Viera everytime I'm in Limsa but I don't complain and ask for an option to hide all female characters or put some kind of garb over them meant to hide their curvature. I just ignore them because I know that while it's not something I like myself, I'm not the only person in the world and that it's stupid to think my annoyance should invalidate the other person's right to wear what they want and present themselves however they want to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I just ignore them because I know that while it's not something I like myself, I'm not the only person in the world and that it's stupid to think my annoyance should invalidate the other person's right to wear what they want and present themselves however they want to everyone.

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This option would stop NOBODY from expressing themselves how they want. It would only affect those who didn't wish to experience such expression. There is a big difference between "I don't want to see that" and "you can't wear that because I don't want to see it".

MY IMMERSION!!!

The concept of true immersion went out the window years ago. Would this "toggle" affect me? Probably not, no. But I also don't think it is necessary. I'm sure there are some who do, as this thread has made apparent. I'm just not one of them.

I dont see what would be wrong with having that option. Doesnt affect anyone else.

The game takes itself seriously enough for immersion to still matter. Most of the sillier stuff is locked away in specific side quests - in no small part due to the development team themselves having acknowledged that the likes of Hildibrand is not everybody's cup of tea. The MSQ's have a few lighthearted moments here and there but they ultimately take themselves seriously. As does...most of the game, in fact. The Brass Blades are dressed as Brass Blades. Garlean Soldiers are dressed as Garlean Soldiers. The Sekiseigumi have a specific outfit that they all wear throughout Kugane. Doman farmers/peasants also have a specific style that they adhere to.

The list goes on. Player characters are the exception to the rule. An optional toggle to allow for people to control their own view of the in-game world isn't hurting anyone and we've seen plenty of similar 'fluff' features added to the game by this point that there's definitely a precedent for such things.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Most of the sillier stuff is locked away in specific side quests

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While that is true a lot of actual combat gear looks very unsuitable for combat.

You could "unglam" everyone with the option OP wants to hide away a frog costume, only to find another player ends up being in a skimpy outfit (for example, all the gear you can get from Shisui) and they're a tank, but while glammed they look like a proper tank with plate armour.

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Originally Posted by TitanMen

Is anyone else fed up with the so-called "single player instances" in the MSQ? I've always considered the MSQ a communal activity since this is an MMO. In ARR your MSQ filled with dungeons every few levels and there are very few single player instances. You also have to do them with other players. I'm very disturbed by the trend in FF14 that is turning this game into a single player game. One of the worst culprits is the Trust system that basically takes away the need to interact with people at all. Have we grown so narcissistic as a society that we must have the instances all to ourselves? Have we grown so narcissistic that we won't even entertain the option of playing with other people?

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lol

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

No, I read it all. I just didn't feel like telling you that you're wrong on every little thing. :/

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Very compelling.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

Because having those pixels on my screen look different than you intended is a complete violation of your rights. *rolls eyes*

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I'm a trans individual irl, and people get to decide how they view me both in front of me and behind my back. If they had it their way, they'd put on their fancy goggles and turn me into what they think I should look like, right? And it's no different here because it's just "pixels on a screen" and surely therefore has no possible reason to offend me right? Because when it's online everything is suddenly fine?

Part of why I play is so I can exist somewhere no one can reasonably impose their "standards" on me and now you expect me to put up with it because you can't handle the pixels on your screen that resemble a thong? Like, it's just pixels right dude lol, it's vital to my immersive gameplay experience.

Just because someone can call me so and so behind my back doesn't means it's okay just because I can't hear it, so why would I want someone to change their literal perception of me just because I can't see it? No, It's not fine, you don't get to choose what I look like for your own personal convenience reasons, you can run trusts or stop paying your sub if it bothers you that much that people exist in your mmo. Imagine how someone would look at you if you told them you want to remove all the bears in the woods so you can have a camping trip.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Self Expression. This removes no self expression other than needing to know that absolutely everyone has to "experience" your particular expression if you're in their party or on their screen.

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Here we go again.

Ya know, I see one of the excuses is that people's glams don't fit the aesthetics of their jobs, but like... Since when have they ever in Final Fantasy? You got Lulu, a woman who is supposed to be protecting her summoner going into combat with a belt dress that destroys her ability to move (and ironically had probably the highest evasion). Tidus, a sports star turned warrior who continues to wear his sports outfits (throw in Wakka in there too while you're at it). Any female character from FF 2 - 6 wearing leotards, including Celes, a magic knight who should probably have more armor than some pauldrons. 6 also has a yeti as a playable character. Literally no one in 7 wears actual armor. 8 is about a class of military students who wear their uniforms for like 1/10 of the game, and then they're just in casual wear for the rest of it, Selphie going as far as wearing just a sundress. 9 is probably the most consistent at keeping with reasonable designs for the characters, but like it also has Quina so ya know. 12 has Vaan just flaunting his abs the entire game, and Fran wearing basically nothing.

They all fit their own PERSONAL aesthetics, rather than their jobs. Characters are more than the jobs they rep.

Anyways, there is a lot of precedence for silly looking, or casual looking characters. This excuse that they need to fit a certain aesthetic to be "Final Fantasy" is only paying attention to the ones who strictly look like their roles.

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Originally Posted by 3c-33

Here we go again.

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Please explain why I HAVE to see the choices you've made for yourself and how my not wanting to see these choices limits your own creativity and expression.

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Originally Posted by 3c-33

I'm a trans individual irl

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...and I'm a gay guy. Not that it particularly matters, since even if I consider my character to also be a partial reflection of myself in the fact that he, too, is gay...

It's a private matter irrelevant to people who do not know me. I wouldn't care at all if my glamour was replaced on somebody else's screen. It wouldn't be a personal attack upon my identity or sexuality.

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Originally Posted by 3c-33

No, It's not fine, you don't get to choose what I look like for your own personal convenience reasons, you can run trusts or stop paying your sub if it bothers you that much that people exist in your mmo. Imagine how someone would look at you if you told them you want to remove all the bears in the woods so you can have a camping trip.

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This comparison is not equivalent to what is going on here. A more apt comparison would be if you asked someone if they could make all the bears look like humans in their eyes. Pretty sure the bears would not care in that situation. I really can't understand why this upsets you, as I would not even care if I looked like a naked male Mi'qote on someone else's screen. For me, I take issue with the fact that the people on your side wish to restrict the choice of other people on something that would do no harm to anyone.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Please explain why I HAVE to see the choices you've made for yourself and how my not wanting to see these choices limits your own creativity and expression.

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Let's say for example a player is a male person irl, and irl they like to wear clothing that would normally be considered for women. This fictional person's character is also male and dresses in the same manner.

By removing their glams, which may give them a more conventional appearance (note I say may, because if they have the Shisui gear equipped then that won't happen) you are removing their expression from your view.

You may say "but only I can see it!" but people can take screenshots, and stream. And I can understand someone being upset that their character or even themselves are being misrepresented due to someone else turning off glams and sharing imagery with them in it.

Sure SE could take some measures to prevent screenshots, and maybe even streaming...but mods are also against the ToS and it's super easy to find screenshots that have been enhanced by mods. No matter what SE do, people would find a way to upload imagery of unglammed players.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Let's say for example a player is a male person irl, and irl they like to wear clothing that would normally be considered for women. This fictional person's character is also male and dresses in the same manner.

By removing their glams, which may give them a more conventional appearance (note I say may, because if they have the Shisui gear equipped then that won't happen) you are removing their expression from your view.

You may say "but only I can see it!" but people can take screenshots, and stream. And I can understand someone being upset that their character or even themselves are being misrepresented due to someone else turning off glams and sharing imagery with them in it.

Sure SE could take some measures to prevent screenshots, and maybe even streaming...but mods are also against the ToS and it's super easy to find screenshots that have been enhanced by mods. No matter what SE do, people will find a way to upload imagery of unglammed players.

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And what has this done to affect the players creativity or expression?

The player is able to present their image as they like and unless the hugely unlikely situation arrives in which not only do I stream my view, but it becomes popular enough to come back to that player AND they manage to identify themselves, they will NEVER know what I see. Considering I already don't wish to see someones chosen appearance I probably ALSO have their names on first initials only (already ingame) so the chances of any of your proposed "infraction of expression" coming back to the original player are astronomical.

This argument against this option borders on psychosis.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

And what has this done to affect the players creativity or expression?

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I literally explained it to you.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I literally explained it to you.

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You explained why you don't like it. I see nothing of limiting creativity or expression. You are still free to choose however you wish to display yourself. The only limitation this particular option imposes is that you cannot guarantee that absolutely everyone will have to see exactly what you see, which is already something that cannot be done.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

You explained why you don't like it. I see nothing of limiting creativity or expression. You are still free do choose however you wish to display yourself. The only limitation this particular option imposes is that you cannot guarantee that absolutely everyone will have to see exactly what you see, which is already something that cannot be done.

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Here it is again considering you must have missed it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You may say "but only I can see it!" but people can take screenshots, and stream. And I can understand someone being upset that their character or even themselves are being misrepresented due to someone else turning off glams and sharing imagery with them in it.

Sure SE could take some measures to prevent screenshots, and maybe even streaming...but mods are also against the ToS and it's super easy to find screenshots that have been enhanced by mods. No matter what SE do, people would find a way to upload imagery of unglammed players.

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You might not care if your character appears in someone else's screenshot with your unglammed gear, but some other people would. For some people their characters are the only way they can express themselves, because we live in a society where acting outside the norm can get you shunned. By removing their glams you are effectively doing what society would prefer them to do irl.

And I'm pretty sure nothing I said here will even vaguely resonate with you, so I'm just going to look forward to your next post saying that disliking being seen in a way you didn't choose is somehow bordering on some manner of mental illness.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Please explain why I HAVE to see the choices you've made for yourself and how my not wanting to see these choices limits your own creativity and expression.

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You make this out to be a big deal just as much as I do on the other end. You also don't have to see anything. This is the exact same back and forth argument that doesn't take us anywhere

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Originally Posted by Theodric

...and I'm a gay guy. Not that it particularly matters, since even if I consider my character to also be a partial reflection of myself in the fact that he, too, is gay...

It's a private matter irrelevant to people who do not know me. I wouldn't care at all if my glamour was replaced on somebody else's screen. It wouldn't be a personal attack upon my identity or sexuality.

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I made the comparison because I can't just hide the fact I'm trans unless I perfectly pass and people take it upon themselves to impose upon me and call me something I very visibly don't identify with right down to the name. A better comparison would be like saying that some stranger wants to make it look like your partner is one of the opposite sex because it bothers them

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

This comparison is not equivalent to what is going on here. A more apt comparison would be if you asked someone if they could make all the bears look like humans in their eyes. Pretty sure the bears would not care in that situation. I really can't understand why this upsets you, as I would not even care if I looked like a naked male Mi'qote on someone else's screen. For me, I take issue with the fact that the people on your side wish to restrict the choice of other people on something that would do no harm to anyone.

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My comparison is equating the fact that bears exist in the woods the way other players exist in mmos and I don't see why you would want to modify such an aspect of the game that would make others seem more like npcs than actual people, disregarding the entire "mmo" thing. This really just borders on being a thread about wanting this to be a single player game

As mentioned earlier on in the thread it's ultimately a matter of give and take. More options for the game is something that goes both ways, not just one. It's pretty hypocritical for people to claim that they want to express themselves in-game but then turn around and insist that other players are not allowed to control what they see on their screen.

Almost 33 pages! I thought Astrid winning was contentious, but this nonsensical topic is even more so. Please continue!

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Originally Posted by 3c-33

My comparison is equating the fact that bears exist in the woods the way other players exist in mmos and I don't see why you would want to modify such an aspect of the game that would make others seem more like npcs than actual people, disregarding the entire "mmo" thing. This really just borders on being a thread about wanting this to be a single player game

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No one said they wanted this to be a single player game. You have obvious differences from an NPC in that you can type a variety of different words in response to the situation, as well as the player name over your head. I don't need to see someone wrapped in a frog suit to know when I am looking at a player.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As mentioned earlier on in the thread it's ultimately a matter of give and take. More options for the game is something that goes both ways, not just one. It's pretty hypocritical for people to claim that they want to express themselves in-game but then turn around and insist that other players are not allowed to control what they see on their screen.

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Yea it's a shame that just like real life we have to respect that other people make different decisions to us.