Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Buffing BLM isn't necessarily the answer. Constantly buffing jobs leads to power creep which is not desirable either. Nerfs don't feel good but they're just as important as buffs in balancing.

---

This.

Get rid of the raise and it'll be basically fine after the ranged get tuned up a bit.

I don't mind losing raise if it'll settle the debate once and for all, even though I personally enjoy playing the role of raise caster. I like having more responsibility and control over how fast we progress a fight as a dps, so I don't think it's a bad thing for jobs to have niches in this game. It gives the different jobs character, even if it means some people suffer if their playstyle doesn't align with their preferred job's niche. Red mage is the best in progression bar done, black mage is a lock for speedruns, and smn can flexibly fill both roles if you're willing to lower your standards a bit.

I mean there's no reason raise has to be viewed as a 'caster' thing making it about blm vs rdm/smn (and even that's only if you buy into 1 caster comps). It's more like the two dps jobs that can raise just happen to be casters by chance. If they gave some melees a CPR skill that raised people or something, would people still be focusing on red mage and summoner so much?

Anyway, that's besides the point. The real issue to consider is that if raise didn't exist, it would mean that rdps balance between the 3 casters would start looking a lot closer to what it looks like for the ranged. I wonder if black mages are ready to accept that? Either black mage will take a massive dps nerf to fall in line with machinist, or summoner and red mage will be buffed to its level. It might even be the case that red mage does more rdps than black mage when that day comes.

If that ever happens, I hope the narrative won't shift to some other excuse, like "Red mage is an easier job so it still deserves to do less damage" or something about everlasting flight again (lol). Like I mentioned awhile ago, there are 10+ reasons why black mages are unpopular in groups, and raise/rdm/smn is just one of them. If you take raise away and black mages still can't compete for a spot on an even playing field, you'll see people realize what the other reasons are really quick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myon88

I wonder if black mages are ready to accept that?.

---

You mean, the status quo we've had other than Alphascape and this tier? I think we'll handle it with a tad bit more grace than the Summoners who lose their raise and start losing to Machinists.

if raise is taken away from SMN and RDM and their rdps is on par with BLM is justified (unlike the current SMN which almost everbody agreed overpowered), BLM will probably whine about their casting time and no mobility (which they actually have more than RDM), everlasting, titan shield and bla bla bla until in the end they have more rdps than the other...

(Seriously though who decided pure dps should be the top in rdps... adps i understand but rdps?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miminming

(Seriously though who decided pure dps should be the top in rdps... adps i understand but rdps?)

---

Yeah... I dont get that either. Seems like not much thought was placed behind that decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lulunami

rDPS on FFlogs over the entire tier for E4S (Titan) at the 99th percentile. BLM, MNK, SAM are still higher than SMN in a movement heavy fight.

https://i.imgur.com/Lir9g9K.png

---

It's not really a "movement intensive" fight once you're past the initial first phase. Once you hit titan maximum, it's literally a turret fight for BLM and it's also one that allows BLM to pad damage better than SMN with stacking multiple Fouls for healer gaols (you can do 3x Fouls on each set). It's the same reason why SMN ends up looking better in e1s, because BoP has an 8y radius allowing you to hit all 4 meteor orbs during FBT.

The true test will be ultimate imo

If you want to consider balance around ultimate, raise shouldnt have tax on it, you wont be able to clear in a situation where caster need to do raise, especially when the ultimate is still revelant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miminming

If you want to consider balance around ultimate, raise shouldnt have tax on it, you wont be able to clear in a situation where caster need to do raise, especially when the ultimate is still revelant.

---

That statement is the furthest thing from the truth, and anyone with extensive experience clearing ultimate would agree with me. Ultimate, at least with last expansion, never had harsh DPS checks. They were designed as mechanic checks. Raise is extremely valuable in ultimate, and I've had several clears that came off the back of caster raise existing to recover from mechanical mistakes (especially when it's a healer death and the other healer has to focus on healing during raid wide damage).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa

That statement is the furthest thing from the truth, and anyone with extensive experience clearing ultimate would agree with me. Ultimate, at least with last expansion, never had harsh DPS checks. They were designed as mechanic checks. Raise is extremely valuable in ultimate, and I've had several clears that came off the back of caster raise existing to recover from mechanical mistakes (especially when it's a healer death and the other healer has to focus on healing during raid wide damage).

---

When did you get your clear? Is it within the patch they come out? If you clear it in later patch (even just .1 patch above) dps check get lamer, either that or your group good good dps or my group is not as good as i though (i remember 0.2% so many time...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miminming

When did you get your clear? Is it within the patch they come out? If you clear it in later patch (even just .1 patch above) dps check get lamer, either that or your group good good dps or my group is not as good as i though (i remember 0.2% so many time...)

---

My first UWU clear was 9 days after release, and I have 20 or so uploaded clears (I have a few more not uploaded) before you had access to better gear. UCoB I wasn't subbed when it actually released but I did clear it (and multiple times after) before 345 gear was available, so I still had the same item level as anyone else in 4.1, and even the SMN nerfs on top of it.

And if you don't believe me, then here:
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/...&mode=detailed
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/...&mode=detailed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miminming

If you want to consider balance around ultimate, raise shouldnt have tax on it, you wont be able to clear in a situation where caster need to do raise, especially when the ultimate is still revelant.

---

If you don't want a raise tax, advocate for it's removal.

It's that simple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa

My first UWU clear was 9 days after release, and I have 20 or so uploaded clears (I have a few more not uploaded) before you had access to better gear. UCoB I wasn't subbed when it actually released but I did clear it (and multiple times after) before 345 gear was available, so I still had the same item level as anyone else in 4.1, and even the SMN nerfs on top of it.

And if you don't believe me, then here:
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/...&mode=detailed
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/...&mode=detailed

---

No i believe you but if you clear 9 days after release it mean you are like top of top, which provably not the best data to be taken into account on balancing.

As for removing raise, believe me most caster agree (probably not the casual one), though i prefer adding res to blm with 2 min cooldown on all caster raise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miminming

No i believe you but if you clear 9 days after release it mean you are like top of top, which provably not the best data to be taken into account on balancing.

As for removing raise, believe me most caster agree (probably not the casual one), though i prefer adding res to blm with 2 min cooldown on all caster raise.

---

Don't trust her opinion about the job! She knows it too well!

I kid, but honestly the top of the top should be what we look at for numeric balancing, with lower percentiles (within a given set of conditions, such as no deaths, etc) then being looked at for their drop-off from those more perfect parses, as to find further imbalances in ease of play or identify QoL issues that may be removed or just accepted by the time one reaches the highest tiers of play. Those other parts are hugely important, but their interest should be aimed at approaching those higher percentages, with only the top of the top being the gold standard for what a job should be capable of on the whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Don't trust her opinion about the job! She knows it too well!

I kid, but honestly the top of the top should be what we look at for numeric balancing, with lower percentiles (within a given set of conditions, such as no deaths, etc) then being looked at for their drop-off from those more perfect parses, as to find further imbalances in ease of play or identify QoL issues that may be removed or just accepted by the time one reaches the highest tiers of play. Those other parts are hugely important, but their interest should be aimed at approaching those higher percentages, with only the top of the top being the gold standard for what a job should be capable of on the whole.

---

High as in 90-95 percentile is good but theres a reason people excluded 99 and max parse...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa

My first UWU clear was 9 days after release, and I have 20 or so uploaded clears (I have a few more not uploaded) before you had access to better gear. UCoB I wasn't subbed when it actually released but I did clear it (and multiple times after) before 345 gear was available, so I still had the same item level as anyone else in 4.1, and even the SMN nerfs on top of it.

And if you don't believe me, then here:
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/...&mode=detailed
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/...&mode=detailed

---

Not sure why this is even in this thread.

On the contrary... Summoner seems really powerful of late. I'm all for the if the class is more difficult it should do more damage but it having a raise, party buff and small heal for party members. Black mage mains pain is real.

Mch needs more

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Not sure why this is even in this thread.

On the contrary... Summoner seems really powerful of late. I'm all for the if the class is more difficult it should do more damage but it having a raise, party buff and small heal for party members. Black mage mains pain is real.

---

The buff is only like 200-250 rdps. The heal is laughable. Almost all of the contention is about Raise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Not sure why this is even in this thread.

On the contrary... Summoner seems really powerful of late. I'm all for the if the class is more difficult it should do more damage but it having a raise, party buff and small heal for party members. Black mage mains pain is real.

---

Only raise worth mentioning, party buff? You are looking at rdps which include it already...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miminming

Only raise worth mentioning, party buff? You are looking at rdps which include it already...

---

to be fair, the damage buff is indeed included so completly irrelevant, the heal however as worthless as it is (and you don't need to tell me, i fully believe it is freaking wortless 99,5% of cases) is still existant, people more than once in different threads called things like "wardens paen" out as a reason a bard not only should but in fact needs to do less than a mch, and that thing hasn't even worked on literally anything in shadowbringers so far, like yes the heal is really the faintest of utility, but in a really really perfect world it would have to be accounted for for the rare case ......." mind you in the end it errs so much on the side of "worthless" that any "accounting for the phoenix heal as utility" should cost so little to average out when its actually usefull it would statistically look like margin of error, talking like 50 dps on the high end here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madoka

The buff is only like 200-250 rdps. The heal is laughable. Almost all of the contention is about Raise.

---

Don't get me wrong, Devotion is one of the weaker synergy buffs of the ones available, however, it's only that weak in a party that poorly uses it. Devotion's higher in a reasonable synergy comp with solid play.

The heal's definitely not laughable and is something healers can account for when optimising. But it's not something we will play around healers for. FBT happens when it needs to happen, not when healers want EF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miminming

When did you get your clear? Is it within the patch they come out? If you clear it in later patch (even just .1 patch above) dps check get lamer, either that or your group good good dps or my group is not as good as i though (i remember 0.2% so many time...)

---

I'm going to echo the answer you got. I did UWU on content and only got to do UCoB much later due to grouping reasons (look up Sora Maxwell of Faerie, too lazy to post links from phone), but the design goal of Ultimate is not a DPS fest, it's a mechanical one, with the biggest exceptions being final phase on both fights so far.

There are moments in both Ultimates where deaths are virtually unrecoverable; a death in Nael has the potential to (pardon the pun) snowball from ice killing people for instance. There are plenty more areas where a caster raise can be the difference between making it through the phase or wiping. This is why I advocate for caster raise removal or homogenization: I agree with Phenomena, it's a super powerful tool to have when the occasion calls for it. It can't be quantified, and because of that we'll probably continue seeing BLM either being miles above it's caster peers or ignored outright. Either Black Mage should get a raise, completely unfettered just like it's peers, no fuss and no silly gimmick, or casters should lose it altogether.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I'm going to echo the answer you got. I did UWU on content and only got to do UCoB much later due to grouping reasons (look up Sora Maxwell of Faerie, too lazy to post links from phone), but the design goal of Ultimate is not a DPS fest, it's a mechanical one, with the biggest exceptions being final phase on both fights so far.

There are moments in both Ultimates where deaths are virtually unrecoverable; a death in Nael has the potential to (pardon the pun) snowball from ice killing people for instance. There are plenty more areas where a caster raise can be the difference between making it through the phase or wiping. This is why I advocate for caster raise removal or homogenization: I agree with Phenomena, it's a super powerful tool to have when the occasion calls for it. It can't be quantified, and because of that we'll probably continue seeing BLM either being miles above it's caster peers or ignored outright. Either Black Mage should get a raise, completely unfettered just like it's peers, no fuss and no silly gimmick, or casters should lose it altogether.

---

there would have to be at least some gimmick, otherwise we would get "unlimited mana mage triple cast insta rezz" , like if you think redmage rezz is op that one would teach the world what op really is.

but thats the other thing, redmage and smn rezz aren't balanced against each other even, so either remove it completly or give all of them a gimmick (as redmage at the moment allready got a "gimmick" so to speak), like i dunno, instant+free but with cooldown for redmage, 2x mana cost for summoner but aside from that as is and for blm make it take off 1 bar of polyglot , just an example here but either they would all need some kind of advantage/drawback or even if you gave blm rezz and simple said "could not be triple cast'" the rezz capabilitys between the 3 would be unbalanced by default as blm doesn't care at least mana wise and redmage still has dual cast whereas smn would than be inferior to both.

Using triplecast raise would cost BLM nearly 2000 potency in opportunity costs, if not more considering all future fire 4s and despairs they'd miss doing it. That's far and away beyond what dualcast raise (x3) costs RDM. Also using an instant to raise someone means BLM has one less mobility tool for when it counts, which is also something RDM doesn't necessarily need to consider, or at least not to the level of BLM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Using triplecast raise would cost BLM nearly 2000 potency in opportunity costs, if not more considering all future fire 4s and despairs they'd miss doing it. That's far and away beyond what dualcast raise (x3) costs RDM. Also using an instant to raise someone means BLM has one less mobility tool for when it counts, which is also something RDM doesn't necessarily need to consider, or at least not to the level of BLM.

---

take a look at redmages damage, the dps difference between redmage and blackmage, THAT is the opportunity cost the redmage currently pays no matter if the rezz is needed or unneeded, the value to rezz 3 or even 4 times in a row if you add swiftcast without completly bottoming out its mana blows away anything the redmage can do, and the redmage pays around 1000 dps for that right now no matter if its needed or unneeded, the blm would only pay in case it is a necessity, if you think the oppurtunity cost of using triple cast to do so is so high you vastly underestimate the value of quickly rezzing people (even if their damage as a class were around the same in such a situation this is only talking "how usefull would it be to rezz 3-4 people nearly instantly"). Also theres a big difference in rezzing 3 people in 5 seconds (0-2,5-5) or doing so in 12,5 (2,5-7,5-12,5), not to mention the fact that rezzing 3 times in a row would completly floor the redmages mana.


Also that completly ignores that i said all three should have some sort of condition on their rezz capability for the simple fact that as long as its pure "how much mana does it cost one and does this even effect the class"+"how fast can they do it" we would still end up with a "good rezz/bad rezz" situation as we have right now with smn/rdm and that issue would stay even if blackmage got a rezz, in fact if you simply slap on a rezz on blackmage it would only get worse

If all three had a raise, all three would then have similar damage capability, that's not in question. Black Mage loses a lot more than Red Mage let gcd spent not casting, that's just the nature of the job as it is right now. Also recall I mained Red Mage through both Ultimates and four Savage tiers, I'm not underestimating anything, I'm just pointing out that for a Black Mage to specifically triplecast raise it's going to cost it a lot in opportunity costs.

Let's say we made it eat a polyglot. Then it would cost BLM the potency of a Fire 4 + the potency of Xenoglossy for a single raise. That's over 1,000 potency for a single raise not even including the swiftcast needed for mobility and weaving anyway. That's prohibitively expensive compared to RDM paying in the neighborhood of 400 potency for a dualcast raise.

It's not as simple as saying "But triplecast raise and umbral ice!" There's a lot more to it than that. The high costs of raising unique to BLM would be the potency they dump and the mobility they sacrifice to do it, whereas for RDM it would be a sensitive Mana economy and for SMN it would be their only swiftcast. No gimmick beyond that is needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

It's not as simple as saying "But triplecast raise and umbral ice!" There's a lot more to it than that. The high costs of raising unique to BLM would be the potency they dump and the mobility they sacrifice to do it, whereas for RDM it would be a sensitive Mana economy and for SMN it would be their only swiftcast. No gimmick beyond that is needed.

---

the part i underlined righ now works out so great that when smn was not as broken as it is now redmage was around 300 dps below summoner and people still argued redmage was way better than smn because it could chain rezz.
Also again yes the opportunity cost for a blackmage would be great, but if that could get up 4 people in a row (if you really think there is no gimmick needed, sacrificing triple cast+potentially swiftcast is enough) it would be worth every bit of it, it isn't the question of "what does it cost the blackmage if he does it" the question is simply "what does it offer the group if the blackmage does it" because if it is in fact not needed the blackmage would in fact not do it , thereby it would cost him literally nothing at this point.

It absolutely is a question of "what does it cost the black Mage to do this?" You're asking for a Black Mage to specifically be in umbral ice and at the precise part of the minute both swift and triple are up, both cool downs which BLM absolutely uses on cool down for dps gains, to raise four people in a row. The Black Mage is either going to passively sac it's DPS "just in case," or it's not and people will most likely drop like flies while triple and swift are on cool down.

Summoner was often seen as the stronger caster than red mage throughout the latter's life due to greater mobility (ruin 2 was only 20 potency loss), vastly superior DPS (it surpassed or rivalled black Mage throughout StB and is apparently back up to par now), and the opportunity cost for it's raise was much lower (120 potency for the Lost gcd vs RDMs 310 flat potency at the time). As soon as bleeding edge ended RDM wasn't needed anymore, Summoner was that much stronger. Chain raise is a very, very niche thing and often by the time it's needed you're not clearing anyway; see Titan Savage week 1 where RDM's "key feature" was useless because a single death basically locked you out of a kill that run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

It absolutely is a question of "what does it cost the black Mage to do this?" You're asking for a Black Mage to specifically be in umbral ice and at the precise part of the minute both swift and triple are up, both cool downs which BLM absolutely uses on cool down for dps gains, to raise four people in a row. The Black Mage is either going to passively sac it's DPS "just in case," or it's not and people will most likely drop like flies while triple and swift are on cool down.

Summoner was often seen as the stronger caster than red mage throughout the latter's life due to greater mobility (ruin 2 was only 20 potency loss), vastly superior DPS (it surpassed or rivalled black Mage throughout StB and is apparently back up to par now), and the opportunity cost for it's raise was much lower (120 potency for the Lost gcd vs RDMs 310 flat potency at the time). As soon as bleeding edge ended RDM wasn't needed anymore, Summoner was that much stronger. Chain raise is a very, very niche thing and often by the time it's needed you're not clearing anyway; see Titan Savage week 1 where RDM's "key feature" was useless because a single death basically locked you out of a kill that run.

---

and people still even now argue they will take redmage for ultimate progression before switching to smn or blackmage once they come close to enrage, and yes smn was often seen as superior, allways as soon as its damage got close to the damage of blm, because at this point it was a more mobile blackmage with a rezz, instead of a rezz bot like the redmage which was exactly my point. giving blackmage a rezz and getting redmage up there (or even blm and summoner down to redmage/let them meet anywhere in the middle) would do literally NOTHING to change the imbalance between redmage and summoner, it would just throw in blackmage somewhere in the middle of it.

either redmage stays weaker than the other 2, in that case it stays the rezz bot for progress or it gets up to their level and everyone will complain that redmage is as strong as Summoner/blackmage while it can chain rezz. you're focusing way to much on what i said about blackmage specifically, even though at its core what i said was "the current rezz "balance" between redmage and smn works out badly as is, simply slapping a rez on blackmage would only make it worse" i flat out stated that "do x for redmage, y for smn and z for blackmage" was just an example, but they do either need different kinds of opportunity costs tacked onto their rezz or giving rezz to blackmage does absolutely nothing to change the general balance problems we got with rezz right now and most likely will only make it worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nemekh

Don't get me wrong, Devotion is one of the weaker synergy buffs of the ones available, however, it's only that weak in a party that poorly uses it. Devotion's higher in a reasonable synergy comp with solid play.

The heal's definitely not laughable and is something healers can account for when optimising. But it's not something we will play around healers for. FBT happens when it needs to happen, not when healers want EF.

---

Says the self-proclaimed “expert”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nemekh

Don't get me wrong, Devotion is one of the weaker synergy buffs of the ones available, however, it's only that weak in a party that poorly uses it. Devotion's higher in a reasonable synergy comp with solid play.

The heal's definitely not laughable and is something healers can account for when optimising. But it's not something we will play around healers for. FBT happens when it needs to happen, not when healers want EF.

---

Honestly I'm taking the 200-250 from top smn numbers. Where their rdps and adps differences are only like 200 and their parties probably know what devotion actually looks like on the buff bar. My personal rdps and adps differences are usually maybe 100 and I know my team doesn't try and take advantage of it at all, i just do my best to line it up with trick so that we can do more damage.

EF is 7 ticks of about 2500-3000HP. It can be helpful if it comes up during raidwides but honestly I don't see many healers take it into consideration when healing when it's total healing done is the same as if they slap rapture or Assize or something and the moments it can be clutch in are probably also wipe situations. It's just a regen for about 20k hp every 2 minutes and most smns seem to have 80% or higher overheal amounts in any fight so even when we pop it during raidwides the healers are probably popping some other big boy stuff to top everyone off in 1-2 casts to go back to doing damage.

So again it's majorly about the raise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madoka

Honestly I'm taking the 200-250 from top smn numbers. Where their rdps and adps differences are only like 200 and their parties probably know what devotion actually looks like on the buff bar. My personal rdps and adps differences are usually maybe 100 and I know my team doesn't try and take advantage of it at all, i just do my best to line it up with trick so that we can do more damage.

EF is 7 ticks of about 2500-3000HP. It can be helpful if it comes up during raidwides but honestly I don't see many healers take it into consideration when healing when it's total healing done is the same as if they slap rapture or Assize or something and the moments it can be clutch in are probably also wipe situations. It's just a regen for about 20k hp every 2 minutes and most smns seem to have 80% or higher overheal amounts in any fight so even when we pop it during raidwides the healers are probably popping some other big boy stuff to top everyone off in 1-2 casts to go back to doing damage.

So again it's majorly about the raise.

---

Exactly. Well said

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

Says the self-proclaimed “expert”

---

Would you like to point towards someone more expert than the main theory crafter for the role?

This is getting off-topic, and frankly it feels like we're talking around each other, so this will be my last post about this. They key of what I'm saying is, give BLM a raise and rebalance casters to be much closer to each other in total rDPS, or delete raise from the caster role entirely and rebalance casters to be much closer to each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiudo

and people still even now argue they will take redmage for ultimate progression before switching to smn or blackmage once they come close to enrage

---

Yes, once RDM's niche is done then RDM is worth much less than SMN or BLM. In the most extreme example, RDMs swapped to BLM for Titan Savage to beat enrage. Plenty are also saying they're just going to bring Summoner to Ultimate; plenty of people progged through UWU with a SMN throughout because of its mobility, and that its raise is "good enough:" remember even with Summoner's one raise, there are still three raises in the party, and by 3 deaths your ability to see mechanics accurately and prog is hindered greatly. This is why I'm saying that "triplecast raise" would not break anything outright.

Quote:

---

and yes smn was often seen as superior, allways as soon as its damage got close to the damage of blm, because at this point it was a more mobile blackmage with a rezz, instead of a rezz bot like the redmage which was exactly my point. giving blackmage a rezz and getting redmage up there (or even blm and summoner down to redmage/let them meet anywhere in the middle) would do literally NOTHING to change the imbalance between redmage and summoner, it would just throw in blackmage somewhere in the middle of it.

---

What I'm saying is, Black Mage does not need any silly gimmick like "It eats polyglot" or "It gives the raised player Walking Dead" (yes that's been suggested). Black Mage using a raise comes with its own inherent costs, which it feels like you're ignoring or not reading; using an instant cast on a raise means they're losing a mobility skill. Let's say one person dies, just the one, and swift is down but triple is not: if the BLM wants to raise they need to pop triplecast, which means they're sacrificing two instant casts just to raise one person; then assume after they raise, someone else dies and triple's been all used up. BLM is out of raising options now, and BLM would lose the most out of a hardcast raise.

Quote:

---

either redmage stays weaker than the other 2, in that case it stays the rezz bot for progress or it gets up to their level and everyone will complain that redmage is as strong as Summoner/blackmage while it can chain rezz.

---

All three casters get raise. All three casters are then balanced to do (ballpark) 15,000 rDPS. RDM is good at speed raising with its abundance of instant casts, but abusing them will run the RDM out of MP and make them a non-DPS. SMN is good at cheap raising, neither especially strong nor especially weak at the role. BLM is good at chain raising with its back-to-back instant casts and essentially infinite mana (at points), but it uses its mobility to do so and outside of the windows where swift and triple are available their raising capabilities are limited to say the least. Each has strengths, each has weaknesses.

Quote:

---

you're focusing way to much on what i said about blackmage specifically, even though at its core what i said was "the current rezz "balance" between redmage and smn works out badly as is, simply slapping a rez on blackmage would only make it worse" i flat out stated that "do x for redmage, y for smn and z for blackmage" was just an example, but they do either need different kinds of opportunity costs tacked onto their rezz or giving rezz to blackmage does absolutely nothing to change the general balance problems we got with rezz right now and most likely will only make it worse.

---

They do have different kinds of opportunity costs. That's what I've said in the past three posts. See the previous paragraph for a more in-depth description of what they are. I disagree entirely that giving BLM a raise without some silly gimmick tacked on and equalizing caster damage would throw off balance too badly; BLM's kit as it is now would interact with the tool in a way entirely unique to it that RDM and SMN couldn't replicate, just like now how SMN and RDM have identical raises, but their kits cause them to interact with them uniquely.

Never EVER give Blm a rez to balance the casters ...

slight Blm buff is needed (when looking at Blm since 5.1), .and probably a very slight Smn nerf (Smn is ahead if Sam too sometimes)..

but a slight Blm buff might be enough??

and Smb is too mobile for its damage.. (imo keep the new 5.1 super mobility of Smn.., but either nerf its dps potency a tick.., or buff the non-mobile blm..)

Can't believe how many of you Abel baited on this thread, I am as much impressed as I am disgusted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiroe

Never EVER give Blm a rez to balance the casters ...

slight Blm buff is needed (when looking at Blm since 5.1), .and probably a very slight Smn nerf (Smn is ahead if Sam too sometimes)..

but a slight Blm buff might be enough??

---

How "slight" is "slight"? How much will be enough? How much would be too much? As asked in 5.0, so asked again, what is the quantified value of raise and what do you have to back that up?

My firm position is that caster balance will always be in a weird and often terrible place because raise is difficult to balance around in the first place. If SMN did not have raise, a lot less people would care that it does similar damage to BLM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madoka

Honestly I'm taking the 200-250 from top smn numbers. Where their rdps and adps differences are only like 200 and their parties probably know what devotion actually looks like on the buff bar. My personal rdps and adps differences are usually maybe 100 and I know my team doesn't try and take advantage of it at all, i just do my best to line it up with trick so that we can do more damage.

EF is 7 ticks of about 2500-3000HP. It can be helpful if it comes up during raidwides but honestly I don't see many healers take it into consideration when healing when it's total healing done is the same as if they slap rapture or Assize or something and the moments it can be clutch in are probably also wipe situations. It's just a regen for about 20k hp every 2 minutes and most smns seem to have 80% or higher overheal amounts in any fight so even when we pop it during raidwides the healers are probably popping some other big boy stuff to top everyone off in 1-2 casts to go back to doing damage.

So again it's majorly about the raise.

---

Those are not top numbers for Devotion at all. Even in my raid group that only does weeklies, Devotion is more than double your quoted range on a full uptime encounter (Voidwalker).

For groups that optimise this gets pushed further. If you're only judging it from adps vs rdps that's such an incorrect lens to view it through because SMN always, always, always takes more than it gives from Devotion if it's a competent group with a modicum+ of synergy. That kind of quoted delta is actually really low since an optimised run will have SMN making tremendous use of alignment windows.

Just because your group or you don't see people making use of these things to greatest effect does not mean that they aren't nor shouldn't be factored in.

I will never disparage the significance of raise. But do not downplay what else is there.

Well, I am also really bad at reading fflogs. I'm not sure how to filter by what you have in that screencap. If I go to buffs where I would assume it is I just get uptimes and some things that say Teach Me! to teach fflogs something but I'm not sure what.
Up til now I'd just been comparing rdps and adps and assumed it was filtering devotion from adps. I hadn't really bothered with the site until somewhat recently

Edit - Ok I found it. Seems like I offered 350-440 in this week's clears. I don't get why these numbers aren't on the buffs tab though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miminming

(Seriously though who decided pure dps should be the top in rdps... adps i understand but rdps?)

---

Because rdps is the only dps metric that matters and it's really hard to gauge the impact of other, more defensive utility (the raise, Addle itself, stuff like that).
In fact, in general pure adps jobs fare worse than jobs with buffs, assuming the party can align their junk.
(I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing, just stating where it probably comes from)