Letter to MR Yoshi: Why parses system is destroying the ffxiv world.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If parsers were to blame for that, why did nothing in ARR hurt nearly to the extent of Gordias and Midas? None of them existed yet the hardest tiers only came when casual players saw raiders clear Coil in less than a week and assume "well, they must be super easy then!"

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This is exactly the point. Gordias and Midas were able to be developed exactly BECAUSE of the parsers, if anything.
The raider community, especially the hardcore ones, grew up in skill thanks to parsers letting them improve their rotations and damage outputs.

If you go and take a look at the world first video for T5, healers were barely doing any damage there and the DPS rotations and cooldown usages were mediocre at best.
However, thanks to them being able to parse themselves they managed to find new, more optimal rotations and increase their efficiency in raids, thus leading to Lucrezia and other guilds being able to clear Final Coil in a very short time span compared to the previous Coils.
They breezed through the DPS and healing checks thanks to their new improved rotations. Without a damage meter allowing them to see whether what they were doing was optimal or not, this would never have been possible.

And then Square Enix released Gordias and Midas, thinking the playerbase had improved and was ready for harder raids.
That wasn't true however, because only a very small minority used damage meters in 2.0 and improved their gameplay, while the vast majority of people were still pressing their buttons cluelessly, thinking they were doing well when in fact they weren't.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

This is why this community is seen as a universal joke skillwise even though we may arguably have the hardest content of any MMO in Ultimate. We argue about parsers. An issue that is a non-issue in ANY other MMORPG.

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No we are a joke because we argue for 29 pages about being good and parsing while the Japanese actually clear stuff.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

As I said, the amount of people who actually know how the parsers work, can be counted on one hand, and maybe two people on this forum have the technical knowhow to write one.

Suffice it to say, the "Parser" is not a log parser, the ACT plugins are network packet decoders and they read 6 specific packets, three animation packets, the movement packet which is every 500ms and the hp/mp/tp and status effect updates every 3000ms. That's how it works. It does not know how pets work, it does not know when to drop status effects off, because the game doesn't update the status unless a status effect changes (added or removed by despawn.) SMN/ACN is basically impossible to "parse" correctly and is the least accurate. It also doesn't parse buffs and debuffs correctly because it ignores timing changes, so that has consequences for SCH and AST as well. It might not even track pets correctly at all if they're despawned because the id numbers change when they're respawned.

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Mayhaps you should consider that it's actually quite difficult for ACT to actually read some data due to how the server send the information? I don't claim to understand parsers - I don't need to. That's what experts are there for. Funny how two of the folks on the forums who do know how to actually understand this program have both told you that you were wrong in various methods, yet you prattle on as if you are actually right about something.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

But, hey, if you want to keep pretending that the DPS meter is somehow meaningful.

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This, coming from someone either incapable of raiding, or unwilling. How about you actually practice what you preach and do so-called raiding without these tools, see how well you do. I hear a whole lot of talking, but absolutely nothing to show for it.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Sry if someone doesn't like my way to type... I do my best .

To reply to MS HYO: many ppl offended me! mine was a post to suggest a change in the community but most of you are full of hathred !

to reply to the BIS concept I will rephrase it: Different people got different goals in game, for me the BIS is not one and you ppl are nobody to judge other priorites! My goal is to gear up to the maximum level as more classes as I can BIS or not.... I do raid with my healers because I love healing and I am good at it, if I get a piece I am really happy and I don't care if is BIS or not I am happy to use it and I can heal in savage content with or without. BIS I saw for SCH gives you 2500 crit, 142ish piety and 124ish DET and I PERSONALLY DONT LIKE IT! I don't need so much Piety and I prefer to have more DET. You can have the full BIS and not be good or not have it and do great is the player that matter.

The concept of Logs and BIS bother me and it took from me all the fun from playing DPS, What you top dps do? just blindly follow SOMEONE ELSE ROTATION and do pew pew pew! wow what an achievement do like puppets what other told you to do.
FYI elitist player don't need someone to tell you how to play but the create and optimize their own rotation with their skills.

Still guy you are outside of topic, the point still is why discriminate ppl if they dont have purple/orange logs on PF? if the damage is SUFFICIENT everybody can play, develop new classes without you judging them!!! if you hit the grey line you dont damage anyone is a matter of fact but toxic ppl do for entires parties!!



Anyway even if many of you don’t agree with me some other ppl do !! if you see online on any forum about ffxiv there are many ppl defining parses and LOGs as CANCERS so I am not alone guys!!

Anyway I asked a question few times but nobody got attributes enough to reply to that: If you have orange logs do you think to be a better player than ppl who don’t? if the answer is yes means you are DISCRIMINATING!
Nobody will reply because you know that by replying: Yes I am better! you would give me automatically right.
Still I think logs can classify DPSs by their results but not healers or tanks lol

And if I said someone got the brain of a cow, I didn’t do names and I won’t so why you feel offended if you are not a cow ?!

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What do you mean by "orange logs"? Going back to what I said earlier, if I kick that healer that stands there and does nothing because fairy can do most of the healing, or DPS does not use aoe abilities making the run go much longer then it should be, is that discrimination? For me I define it as disruptive on their part. I do not need a parser to know they are doing very low DPS.

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Originally Posted by Wegente

This is exactly the point. Gordias and Midas were able to be developed exactly BECAUSE of the parsers, if anything.
The raider community, especially the hardcore ones, grew up in skill thanks to parsers letting them improve their rotations and damage outputs.

If you go and take a look at the world first video for T5, healers were barely doing any damage there and the DPS rotations and cooldown usages were mediocre at best.
However, thanks to them being able to parse themselves they managed to find new, more optimal rotations and increase their efficiency in raids, thus leading to Lucrezia and other guilds being able to clear Final Coil in a very short time span compared to the previous Coils.
They breezed through the DPS and healing checks thanks to their new improved rotations. Without a damage meter allowing them to see whether what they were doing was optimal or not, this would never have been possible.

And then Square Enix released Gordias and Midas, thinking the playerbase had improved and was ready for harder raids.
That wasn't true however, because only a very small minority used damage meters in 2.0 and improved their gameplay, while the vast majority of people were still pressing their buttons cluelessly, thinking they were doing well when in fact they weren't.

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Except parsers didn't exist throughout most of ARR. And the devs weren't even aware of them until it became more ubiquitous in use. There is not a chance in hell they based Gordias and Midas' difficulty on parse usage nor the assumption players improved that drastically. If they did... it denotes a degree of sheer incompetency that beggars belief, especially when you consider Yoshida has prattled on for years about wanting to improve player skill. Going by this logic, here is demonstrable proof parsers accomplish that very objective yet instead of developing one like every other MMO, they threaten to ban players for mentioning their use and come up with pointless job gauges as their solution. Genius...

If your game can only be considered challenging if your playerbase is kept entirely in the dark regardless rotation use... your design philosophy fundamentally flawed. Perhaps that's why this game does a laughably piss poor job explaining how rotations even work beyond 1-2-3.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

No we are a joke because we argue for 29 pages about being good and parsing while the Japanese actually clear stuff.

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Perhaps if NA/EU didn't whine so much about everything is too difficult, we wouldn't be arguing. After all, JP didn't complain about Shinryu normal yet holy hell did NA cry.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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Parser did exist since almost day 1 in ARR.
I remember people using an add-on called FFXIVapp that basically did what ACT does, just in a less accurate way. And my static group was using ACT already as early as Second Coil.
It was thanks to comparing my performances with parses of hardcore raiders back in ARR, Lucrezia and other guilds like Collision, that I improved my skills as a player. Without having access to such things, there is no way I would have improved through the years.

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Originally Posted by Wegente

Parser did exist since almost day 1 in ARR.
I remember people using an add-on called FFXIVapp that basically did what ACT does, just in a less accurate way. And my static group was using ACT already as early as Second Coil.
It was thanks to comparing my performances with parses of hardcore raiders back in ARR, Lucrezia and other guilds like Collision, that I improved my skills as a player. Without having access to such things, there is no way I would have improved through the years.

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While I'll agree with Bourne that Gordius difficulty had nothing directly to do with parsers, but simply with how quickly Lucrezia and the like burned through Final Coil (though aided previously by parsers to figure out how to really milk their rotations and macrorotations, sure), I too saw parsers used as early as the first week of first coil. People would bounce between ACT and FFXIVapp based on which was quicker to fix itself after each patch or hotfix, and which seemed more accurate for their class. FFXIVapp seemed to judge melee a bit higher, iirc, for some reason, and both had very little accuracy as to DoT or pet damage at first.

Just after my Twintania clear I was already pushing for ubiquitous access to official parsers because of how much improvement I'd seen from people who both spend the time practicing and have the information systems to really make use of that time. My stance on that has never, and will never, change, though I've since amended my hopes towards that of a rDPS parser instead.

If fflogs was sorted only in terms of rDPS and clear speeds, I think you'd actually see a fair bit more compositional access made available due to a fairer representation of the current balance of jobs and compositions. The meta composition really is as strong as it's made out to be, but at least people wouldn't feel like they're being judged as inferior for allowing some of their would-be personal damage (e.g. a Dragoon buffed by Bard, Machinist, Ninja, Scholar, and Astrologian) to be taken up by a more directly contributing job like Samurai or Black Mage. The only real worry at that point would be the value of DRG in compositions without dual Ranged, which is already a can of worms that has been left partly open far too long.

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Originally Posted by Wegente

Without having access to such things, there is no way I would have improved through the years.

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This is a game design fault that's actually endemic to MMOs.

Any other game we play, we get feedback on how well we do by playing the game directly, and the abilities and UI aren't counterintuitive. Usually it's a bad rpg if things like stats are hidden or are opaque to how things work, or you don't get accurate info on how well you do while playing.

The thing about MMOs is that they are incredibly bad at this on purpose because they want theorycrafters to discover things, and want things like fan sites or wikis to sprout up because it makes for a lot more sticky community. like this forum, or reddit, people get more into the game if we create our own things. But the flip side is that MMOs are some of the worst offenders in hiding needed data for the player, to the point where people parse or datamine or stuff to compensate.

I mean...you can get rid of parsers completely but you have to design for openess, not hiddenness.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This is a game design fault that's actually endemic to MMOs.

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For once we can agree. The majority of MMOs have given little to support learning directly or through the content provided.

But I'd have to say that XIV's situation is worse than most, even: transparency (of stats, of oddly named effects, zero explanation of global mechanics, or even tooltips left wrong for 3 major patches) should not be illegal. And yet parsers are considered as such, and any and almost every attempt between ARR and late HW on this forum to clear away the ambiguity of stat effects or to explain the ways actual damage formulas work in this game have seen the poster permanently banned from the OF. Even putting aside the 'don't ask; don't tell' policy of parsers, this game has taken a crack-down approach on many a scientific understanding of the game's mechanics, all because they deliberately avoid transparency where most other MMOs embrace it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This is a game design fault that's actually endemic to MMOs.

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You and I very seldom agree on anything. For once... that isn't the case.

A good, yet, simple example of lacking information are secondary stats. How much does Critical Hit benefit you over Determination? How much does Determination contribute to healing? The devs have handwaved this as something they don't want to elaborate on because "some people enjoy figuring it out!" This is among the reasons parsers have become so prevalent. Generally speaking, people are not a fan of being kept in the dark. If they're going to meld materia, they want to have an idea towards the impact it will have not guess.

On the subject of triggers, one of the top tier raiders commented on his dislike of the Gaol one yet mentioned how poorly designed that mechanic was. Their reasoning? "If SE wants people to rely less on triggers, give them a chance to react for longer than a split second."

While I know you despise parsers, I still think they would significantly help improve the playerbase, thus allowing for more developed content than what we've seen at the casual level. Of course, only if SE swiftly bans those who abuse other players with that information.

OP, you wanna holler about discrimination, (which is totally gross to be using in the context of a video game btw), try being a SAM main like me, or a BLM main. You know, those jobs that get locked out of parties regardless of their skill just because the top players have found better times with other jobs. People on my server's Novice Network actively discourage people from playing samurai because of this meta nonsense, when it really only matters for the 1% of the 1%.

You're sitting here blathering about "waah I can't do 5K DPS" and not realizng WHY people are asking for that much. Do you want to keep hitting enrage over and over?

BTW, 5K is actually quite generous, seeing as SAM players were hitting that in Deltascape. I think even my grey parsing scrub ass has hit that at least once (before dying like the scrub that I am)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You and I very seldom agree on anything. For once... that isn't the case.

A good, yet, simple example of lacking information are secondary stats. How much does Critical Hit benefit you over Determination? How much does Determination contribute to healing? The devs have handwaved this as something they don't want to elaborate on because "some people enjoy figuring it out!" This is among the reasons parsers have become so prevalent. Generally speaking, people are not a fan of being kept in the dark. If they're going to meld materia, they want to have an idea towards the impact it will have not guess.

On the subject of triggers, one of the top tier raiders commented on his dislike of the Gaol one yet mentioned how poorly designed that mechanic was. Their reasoning? "If SE wants people to rely less on triggers, give them a chance to react for longer than a split second."

While I know you despise parsers, I still think they would significantly help improve the playerbase, thus allowing for more developed content than what we've seen at the casual level. Of course, only if SE swiftly bans those who abuse other players with that information.

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Instead of having to do all the work for SE by parsing their data and theorycrafting, which is unavoidable because we will always do that just to doublecheck the dev's work - but we can always reduce how much we have to do it with their help. It'd be nice if they'd throw us a bone and show us their openers/rotations, their stat priority, etc. I want people on the dev team who manage and main a job to write a guide on how to play it for the community and post it in-game like in a help guide or something. Could even be the Hall of the Intermediate idea, but you meet a "famous" member of your Job who will show you the ropes.

When 4.0 came out, nobody could believe some of the changes that were made like to WAR's defiance/deliverance where you'd LOSE half your gauge for swapping stances. Anyone who played WAR at a serious level was deeply hurt by this change and switched jobs or begrudgingly pushed through while voicing complaints the whole time. How can I believe this dev team has any idea what they're doing for game balance if they'd make such a grave error as a penalty for switching stances that completely ruins your rotation? The beast gauge has been a nightmare in general, but that was the big kicker.

I fail to see how ACT would be killing the game in any way.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Using any tools to complete content without even trying it, you may as well unsub and go watch people play the game on twitch. It's the same experience. It may not be a popular fact, but using any tool to reveal information that is not provided by the game, to your advantage, is cheating. That is what using the DPS meter is, that is what using callouts is, that is what using guides or other datamined data is. You can spoil your own experience if you're really a bad player, I don't care, but when you spoil other players experiences by requiring them to cheat as well so you get your fflogs e-peen satisification, that's just destroying the game for your own benefit.

If the raiders can't see the cause and effect of their damage to the game, then the "raiders" are going to continue to fall outside the difficulty curve, and Yoshi-P will keep making the content easier because the other 95% of the casual player base will be in the center of the difficulty curve, and hence why everything appears to be braindead easy. Stop using these tools as a crutch and play the content normally, and maybe the difficulty curve will tilt back towards providing some challenge.

This is the lifecycle of a MMORPG, it's all good until someone creates a tool to give players an advantage, and then all the bad players adopt it and use it as a bludgeon against other players.

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Er, no. You still haven't provided any factual data that directly ties usage of a parser to clearing content, just feelings and stawmen.

I can clear O8S with or without my parser turned on. If I cleared it with a parser turned off and cleared it again with a parser turned on, what actual difference would a parser provide in the latter that actually constitutes cheating?

I've been openly admitting that I've been parsing on these forums for at least a year now (which is probably around the time the forum staff lightened up on the topic, likely because higher-ups noticed the massive brain drain leaving the forums as a result of the hardline policy before). Nothing has happened to me, as much as you probably want me burned at the stake for it. The fact of the matter is, don't be an asshole and you won't really have anything to fear.

The previous MMO I played actually did implement an official parser. Nobody took it seriously there because the game had been already been broken by a slew of other bad decisions beforehand that basically rendered it meaningless (it only really served as a metric to show off the effect your gear had on your damage output at that point, the game had already transformed into your typical P2W Korean MMO). Parsers by themselves do not affect a community nearly as much as you think it does.

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Originally Posted by Ultima

Instead of having to do all the work for SE by parsing their data and theorycrafting, which is unavoidable because we will always do that just to doublecheck the dev's work - but we can always reduce how much we have to do it with their help. It'd be nice if they'd throw us a bone and show us their openers/rotations, their stat priority, etc. I want people on the dev team who manage and main a job to write a guide on how to play it for the community and post it in-game like in a help guide or something. Could even be the Hall of the Intermediate idea, but you meet a "famous" member of your Job who will show you the ropes.

When 4.0 came out, nobody could believe some of the changes that were made like to WAR's defiance/deliverance where you'd LOSE half your gauge for swapping stances. Anyone who played WAR at a serious level was deeply hurt by this change and switched jobs or begrudgingly pushed through while voicing complaints the whole time. How can I believe this dev team has any idea what they're doing for game balance if they'd make such a grave error as a penalty for switching stances that completely ruins your rotation? The beast gauge has been a nightmare in general, but that was the big kicker.

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That's the other thing. We've come to doubt that the developers are even aware of the systems that they themselves have designed. Do recall that the developers openly admitted that they were nerfing a few Ninja skills at the start of Stormblood, because the playerbase found a better rotation than what the developers originally intended. Intentionally hiding data like exact critical hit/direct hit rates and effect determination has on damage/healing from the player does not instill confidence.

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Originally Posted by EorzeaHero69

I fail to see how ACT would be killing the game in any way.

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You fail to see how it’s killing the game because it isn’t. Just a few people who are bad at the game screaming because they are bad at the game. Nothing more nothing less.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This is a game design fault that's actually endemic to MMOs.

Any other game we play, we get feedback on how well we do by playing the game directly, and the abilities and UI aren't counterintuitive. Usually it's a bad rpg if things like stats are hidden or are opaque to how things work, or you don't get accurate info on how well you do while playing.

The thing about MMOs is that they are incredibly bad at this on purpose because they want theorycrafters to discover things, and want things like fan sites or wikis to sprout up because it makes for a lot more sticky community. like this forum, or reddit, people get more into the game if we create our own things. But the flip side is that MMOs are some of the worst offenders in hiding needed data for the player, to the point where people parse or datamine or stuff to compensate.

I mean...you can get rid of parsers completely but you have to design for openess, not hiddenness.

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Most other games aren't played competitively in a social environment and therefore have lower thresholds for success and are graded entirely as pass/fail. The issue isn't really that MMOs are particularly bad at explaining how to play per se, but rather that any decent amount of complexity, once turned loose into the wilds of live where the community roams, will be subject to the inventiveness of said community. Game devs, despite their best efforts, will often fail to predict exactly how the community runs with a particular design, and even in non-MMORPGs that focus heavily or exclusively on group play, such as MOBAs, the community will establish a meta that often runs counter to the directions the game tries to herd players in. In such cases, only the community can ever really be responsible for creating and maintaining the resources necessary to adhere to the meta they've created. It's simply unreasonable to expect a handful of devs to perpetually outwit what is essentially crowd-sourced ingenuity.

This thread may very well be the most fun and engaging FFXIV-related content to come out in months.

I am being a department manager or head of department (or whatever you wanna call it), and I have basically spreadsheetss, limits, ratings, rankings every day at work. Basically a real-life parser about my and my collegues performance. And I have to think about them evey single day.

I wold never ever use these in a video game. It's my leisure time. If I get the stuff done, everyone else should shut up. Period. I've been flamed for like 30 seconds longer dungeon runs.

Often I feel unemployed over over eagerly addicted speedrun people use these to cause flames and madness and show their pro-ness.
Just like you guys like your rankings and whatnot, I do not. This is not my job.

We get the stuff done, I do not shake my balls while you pull your weight, just to get that straight. I am not one of these "freestyle" guys that make you lose because of DPS checks or something. I know how to adapt - to an extend, enough to not being dead weight.
But I also do not want to have fights over a bit less damage just because you got nothing else to do in your real life that fills you out so you gotta call on people for not doing this or that in a video game.
Then you come up with "diss iss multiplayeur game" and want to kick people, but indeed, it is not just about you (parser users). The argument can go both directions.

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

Often I feel unemployed over over eagerly addicted speedrun people use these to cause flames and madness and show their pro-ness.
Just like you guys like your rankings and whatnot, I do not. This is not my job.

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Lol, so only unemployed addicted people are capable of pressing 1 2 3 in the correct order or using aoes during big packs.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Lol, so only unemployed addicted people are capable of pressing 1 2 3 in the correct order or using aoes during big packs.

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No, only unemployed people need to get angry over such things. Like they have nothing to really care or fear about in their real life. First World problems.

Please do not read things that are not there.

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

I wold never ever use these in a video game. It's my leisure time.

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Not everyone is you. And a LOT of end game players enjoy pushing themselves to their mathematical peak in terms of performance. Parsers are a great tool to aid in this purpose, and to deny them because you don't want to because of... your job? is really selfish of you.


Regardless, the only time in my ~5 years of playing the game that I have seen arguments over parses is when DPS checks are not being met because of someone pulling massively subpar DPS. That is not a first world problem, that is 7 players not being able to progress because one person sucks and is not pulling their weight. If that person is you and you are upset because people are telling you that a parser says your damage sucks, then my only advice is to ask "How do I improve so we can beat this fight?". Don't come to the forums crying that parsers are evil, because you might as well say that calculators are evil because they do maths for us, or that macros are evil because they execute commands for us.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Not everyone is you. And a LOT of end game players enjoy pushing themselves to their mathematical peak in terms of performance. Parsers are a great tool to aid in this purpose, and to deny them because you don't want to because of... your job? is really selfish of you.

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So it is of them. Pushing "themselves to their mathematical peak in terms of performance" is selfish of them, too.
As you can see, you can turn that argument around.

I told you already things are being finished, no unnecessary wipes. But seeing other people want to push me in their "mathematical peak in terms of performance" is not right either.

I've read earlier: "Then make your own parties". Yes, these people like you mention can do that as well. Not using parsers on a random pug and then "Oh, you did this and that 0.05% differently, OMG usobad".

That's like running a marathon and then saying: "Oh, you took that curve in the wrong way. Now you took 2.6 seconds longer". That is ruining the fun being feared random people watch the parsers more than the actual gameplay and/or the outcome.
If you have a profession that is demanding in real life, you will realize this is a video game and thus a leisure time. All of you should keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Regardless, the only time in my ~5 years of playing the game that I have seen arguments over parses is when DPS checks are not being met because of someone pulling massively subpar DPS. That is not a first world problem, that is 7 players not being able to progress because one person sucks and is not pulling their weight. If that person is you and you are upset because people are telling you that a parser says your damage sucks, then my only advice is to ask "How do I improve so we can beat this fight?". Don't come to the forums crying that parsers are evil, because you might as well say that calculators are evil because they do maths for us, or that macros are evil because they execute commands for us.

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Did you even read and comprehend? Wiping all over because of one guy does not require a parser, being SUCH a bad player can simply be seen with bare eyes then. How often do you see these players? And how often it is being used for harrasment or blaming/scapegoating. I also told that I am either agreeing that I am bad and try to get better or we do get trough the content. Nobody ever did I mention I am a slacker and refuse to belive that.

That calculator example I don't get, but you are just grabbing for a straw then. Also, I never cried about "evil parsers", I mention that people - you apparently - love to harrass others because they are not good in a video game. That is awful and kind of disgusting, Sir. I also explained you why. But I guess I gotcha there... *shrug*

To use the words from page 1, a massively upvoted post: "Go make your own group". There you can cause drama because Player 4 did not perform as good as you wished. Even though you might've gotten trough that duty easily, but man, those parser numbers...!!! /s

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

If you have a profession that is demanding in real life, you will realize this is a video game and thus a leisure time. All of you should keep that in mind.

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The thing is, we do. What some people choose to do for leisure is their own business. I know for a fact that many of the raiders here do not necessarily trouble PUGs if those players are slacking - the so-called problems that you and others mentioned do not apply here. A few bad apples doesn't mean that EVERYBODY is like that. These are literally the minority that pull this kind of mess. Now with that being said, I don't much like the implication that unemployed people are the only ones would get upset over something like this. Anybody with a passion for something is like to get very passionate about something.

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

Then you come up with "diss iss multiplayeur game" and want to kick people, but indeed, it is not just about you (parser users). The argument can go both directions.

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Leaving out what I said about "discrimination, I ask you the same thing I asked the TC:

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

So can you explain how parsers lead to discrimination? I do not need a parser to see if a Healer is standing around not doing anything, or knowing some random DPS is not using AoE abilities. Is it discrimination to kick them after they say something like " you do not pay for my sub" as a reply to use such abilities?

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You do not need parses to know someone is being a leech. (Note though this is more for big gaps) 6k vs 5.4 k idc about that difference, esp in expert. What I do care about however is seeing sub 3k or something, or w/e the dps amount is where one can eyeball stuff is dying slow as hell. OFC I do factor gear, fist timer, etc. I am going to be a lot more outspoken about expecting proper play from a savage gear player having a mix of i370 and i360 gear compared to 310 weapon, scattered different ilevel gear, and popping the "one or more members are new, giving 70 more tomes" message.

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

I am being a department manager or head of department (or whatever you wanna call it), and I have basically spreadsheetss, limits, ratings, rankings every day at work. Basically a real-life parser about my and my collegues performance. And I have to think about them evey single day.

I wold never ever use these in a video game. It's my leisure time. If I get the stuff done, everyone else should shut up. Period. I've been flamed for like 30 seconds longer dungeon runs.

Often I feel unemployed over over eagerly addicted speedrun people use these to cause flames and madness and show their pro-ness.
Just like you guys like your rankings and whatnot, I do not. This is not my job.

We get the stuff done, I do not shake my balls while you pull your weight, just to get that straight. I am not one of these "freestyle" guys that make you lose because of DPS checks or something. I know how to adapt - to an extend, enough to not being dead weight.
But I also do not want to have fights over a bit less damage just because you got nothing else to do in your real life that fills you out so you gotta call on people for not doing this or that in a video game.
Then you come up with "diss iss multiplayeur game" and want to kick people, but indeed, it is not just about you (parser users). The argument can go both directions.

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Rather than being incredibly condescending and insulting to a diverse group of people you know nothing about, perhaps you should reflect a little bit on the subjective nature of fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

snip

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None of that happens. At all. No one complains about 2.5 seconds being added to a dungeon for a wrong turn. I don't even tend to deal in absolutes and I can say that if that's you're assertion you're just a liar.

If you find that people are complaining about your performance regularly perhaps you should install a parser yourself or get a friend to parse you.

At this point I would rather embrace the meme than listen to people complain about nothing anymore so.... git gud o/

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

Did you even read and comprehend? Wiping all over because of one guy does not require a parser, being SUCH a bad player can simply be seen with bare eyes then. How often do you see these players? And how often it is being used for harrasment or blaming/scapegoating. I also told that I am either agreeing that I am bad and try to get better or we do get trough the content. Nobody ever did I mention I am a slacker and refuse to belive that.

That calculator example I don't get, but you are just grabbing for a straw then. Also, I never cried about "evil parsers", I mention that people - you apparently - love to harrass others because they are not good in a video game. That is awful and kind of disgusting, Sir. I also explained you why. But I guess I gotcha there... *shrug*

To use the words from page 1, a massively upvoted post: "Go make your own group". There you can cause drama because Player 4 did not perform as good as you wished. Even though you might've gotten trough that duty easily, but man, those parser numbers...!!! /s

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So I shall turn this around: How often do you -actually- see parsers being used for harassment/scapegoating? Has this actually happened to you? Or have you merely imagined someone else thinking that for reasons? Are you not harassing/scapegoating people in this thread right now? I've maybe only seen this happen once in three years for a Sephirot EX practice party, and I actually used my parse data to counter theirs to show that the offender was nowhere near blameless and didn't have much of a right to disparage the rest of the party either.

Pulling the 'I have a job, I play this game to relax, and only unemployed people are concerned about parser performance' card is disingenuous at best, willfully obtuse further down the line, and really -really- insulting at most. Is the main crux of your argument really 'hurr durr fat unemployed raider stereotype' and 'first world problems'? Go work in a 24 hour pharmacy where you have to service a deluge of patients from 4-5 different hospitals on a weekend night because all the other pharmacies closed 3 hours earlier compared to a weekday night, who cannot simply be told to 'wait until all the other pharmacies open in the morning', and come back to me about stress.

Caring about damage numbers is selfish. Willfully holding yourself back because you want to relax while shoving your personal responsibility to 3-7 other people is also selfish. Logically, which is really more important - your sense of individualism, or having the decency to be concerned for the sake of the others you're playing with, if only for a little bit?

It's not hard at all. I certainly don't find my usual rotation stressful at all. If anything, I find it fun melting things quickly as a Bard at such a rate that everyone else I party with is surprised that a Bard can even pull something like that off, while being mindful of support skills at the same time. Someone telling you to improve does not mean that they're a raider running a parser either, but the way this forum behaves, you'd think so. I chose the most practical route: To minimize stress by improving myself to the point where I can stop arguments and cover for others before such thoughts cross everyone's minds in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

Just like you guys like your rankings and whatnot, I do not. This is not my job.

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Nor is it mine. You know what I find decidedly unfun? Carrying someone who cannot be bothered to contribute more than the bear minimum while everyone else is pushing at least above average. You may not be dead weight, however if enough people shared your attitude in the same party, we may either not clear at all or barely beat enrage. Clearing a fight by the skin of my teeth each week isn't fun. It's repetitive. If you find that "good enough," by all means, enjoy your progression. Just don't complain if someone else feels different and elects not to keep you in the party as a result. You aren't entitled to a clear nor their time just because your idea of fun differs from theirs.

This idea that raiders only want to party with orange tier speed killers is little more than deflective nonsense to absolve oneself of improving. Most players, even those with oranges but either choose to PF for fight or have their static on breaks, aren't asking for more than an above average player.

Alas, it's easier to blame parsers or "toxic raiders"

Guys....this is the same person that blamed millennials for all his problems in another thread.

Hi, I'm off of work now and not an unemployed addict, but I'm still an addict because I like playing XIV?

Am I horrible now?

So uh just wanted to provide my thoughts on this.....

While I do agree that parsing is bad when it is used against people without their consent, it is by no means any harmful if used to check stats, what you can do better, and when you want to improve on a fight. I think that the thread creator is misleading on the topic. She/he states that they are amazing and dont need to dps as a healer. Okay, but you have to remember that not dpsing as a healer is severely gimping your own toolkit. Healer dps is very important considering we are very powerful and can mostly heal stuff with OGCD's and you need to utilize those to the best of your ability. Dpsing itself without knowing a fight however, is stupid. A tip I use for myself is map all my cooldowns to the fight mechanics and where I want to heal and dps. I can spend most of the fight dpsing cause you dont need to heal much. I say this time and time again but you can heal with OGCD and dps more if you wish. Sure, you can heal a ton if you really want but that is NOT OPTIMAL in the slightest. FFLOGS is there to help people improve and I would never ever say somebody sucks because of numbers if we got the clear. A clear is a clear but ONCE YOU CLEAR it is nice to change things to make yourself a better player such as mapping your cooldowns to the fights. Now, I know you hate fflogs but I went and look at yours and you haven't cleared God Kefka which is imo a very easy fight yet you are proclaiming how great you are as a healer in this thread and I think you can dps a lot more as a scholar. Scholars should never be doing the majority of the healing as they are optimal for more dps and are support healers.

I also want to say that this thread just feels like you are trolling as well in various replies. If somebody is pointing out crap parses of yours then maybe you should improve. Mind you, I'm not trying to be insulting here but just want you to understand that low Scholar dps is not optimal one bit. You have no proof that you are better than any players and yet you decide to just crap all over people's achievements when they are objectively better than you. Tough shite, hun but I think this thread was created cause someone called you out in a party and you wanted to decide that FFlogs must be the cause of all your grievances when in reality maybe they just wanted to see you dps and heal optimally considering you are in savage. I went ahead and looked at your lodestone as well just because I was curious but you seem geared pretty well yet you assume BiS is not required. I'm a bit lost here but what exactly are you trying to prove in this thread? The only thing I can agree with is saying people suck by referencing numbers and being a jerk but your other points quite frankly make no sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

I mention that people - you apparently - love to harrass others because they are not good in a video game. That is awful and kind of disgusting, Sir.

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So let me get this straight, apparently *I* am now harassing people, thats a hell of a leap. Sounds to me like you are just trying to point the finger of accountability at anyone except the person making the complaint. Sorry to say thats not how multiplayer games work. You have to pull your weight if the content requires it, otherwise you need to rectify that any way you can (whether it be parsers, the advice of other players, or practice and research). It's not about skill as you are trying to make out, its about attitude, and this thread stinks of people with poor attitude when confronted with people who want them to be better.

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

So it is of them. Pushing "themselves to their mathematical peak in terms of performance" is selfish of them, too.

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How exactly is it selfish of people? Please explain? If I want to be a great player and improve myself in game how is that selfish? It’s not is has nothing to do with you it’s self improvement. Grow up dude just because others are not you doesn’t make them selfish. Everyone likes different things and has different hobbies.

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

So it is of them. Pushing "themselves to their mathematical peak in terms of performance" is selfish of them, too.

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Apparently wanting to be a useful party member to everyone is selfish.

I still remember getting into Snowcloak 45 minutes in progress with a warrior that only butcher block'd without comboing. I tanked it as monk, and did everything in my power to heal myself, mitigate, and stay alive. I guess I was just being selfish though. Next time I'll just only bootshine that and compliment the tank on his amazing skills unironically.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Apparently wanting to be a useful party member to everyone is selfish.

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Don't you understand? We aren't respecting the content enough. We need a main tank who always remains in Tank Stance, the healers should mostly heal and the DPS do just enough to kill the fight. Who cares you see Phantom Train's enrage six months into the tier in a supposed clear party. If you ask for anything better, you're being s e l f i s h.

Ask for Viera in 5.0. That's okay! Ask players be a little appreciative of everyone's time and not do 3k when the average is 5k? E L I T I S T.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

To use the words from page 1, a massively upvoted post: "Go make your own group". There you can cause drama because Player 4 did not perform as good as you wished. Even though you might've gotten trough that duty easily, but man, those parser numbers...!!! /s

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That upvoted post was aimed at the OP and the people arguing against parsers and improvement... so um that means you. I guess your reading comprehension isn’t that great huh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Don't you understand? We aren't respecting the content enough. We need a main tank who always remains in Tank Stance, the healers should mostly heal and the DPS do just enough to kill the fight. Who cares you see Phantom Train's enrage six months into the tier in a supposed clear party. If you ask for anything better, you're being s e l f i s h.

Ask for Viera in 5.0. That's okay! Ask players be a little appreciative of everyone's time and not do 3k when the average is 5k? E L I T I S T.

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The Boogeyman Raiders and their discriminatory ideal that you should clear FASTER and SMOOTHER than a day 0 run of the content. Ask to cheese the Train Car Ghost and kill the boss a few minutes faster than enrage? E L I T I S T you're ruining the game with your expectations! What if their dog got ran over and they were sad and they just wanted a nice CASUAL CLEAR of the SAVAGE (Read: 1% of the game where you're asked to do more than slap your hands on the keyboard like a deranged child to clear.)

Make a suggestion on how to make the community better? E L I T I S T you should let us play how we want and make our own rotations and playstyles in this game of HARD MATHEMATICAL OPTIMIZATION THAT EVEN THE DEVELOPERS USE. You're all sheep for using the same rotations, don't you know my ultra unique rotation of not using half my skills is F U N?

Here is an toxic post OP. Probably the most toxic, generalised post in this thread: (Just in case you want proof that a parser are not the problem. humans are on both sides of the fence, so to speak)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

I am being a department manager or head of department (or whatever you wanna call it), and I have basically spreadsheetss, limits, ratings, rankings every day at work. Basically a real-life parser about my and my collegues performance. And I have to think about them evey single day.

I wold never ever use these in a video game. It's my leisure time. If I get the stuff done, everyone else should shut up. Period. I've been flamed for like 30 seconds longer dungeon runs.

Often I feel unemployed over over eagerly addicted speedrun people use these to cause flames and madness and show their pro-ness.
Just like you guys like your rankings and whatnot, I do not. This is not my job.

We get the stuff done, I do not shake my balls while you pull your weight, just to get that straight. I am not one of these "freestyle" guys that make you lose because of DPS checks or something. I know how to adapt - to an extend, enough to not being dead weight.
But I also do not want to have fights over a bit less damage just because you got nothing else to do in your real life that fills you out so you gotta call on people for not doing this or that in a video game.
Then you come up with "diss iss multiplayeur game" and want to kick people, but indeed, it is not just about you (parser users). The argument can go both directions.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

No, only unemployed people need to get angry over such things. Like they have nothing to really care or fear about in their real life. First World problems.

Please do not read things that are not there.

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You have no idea what you are talking about. It doesn't matter if you are employed or unemployed, what matters is the attidude and what the individuel considers to be fun. Some want to challenge themselves, others want to work together and help the team as good as possible or some aren't willing to put effort in for their own reasons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

No, only unemployed people need to get angry over such things. Like they have nothing to really care or fear about in their real life. First World problems.

Please do not read things that are not there.

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By the way, I looked over this little gem. You have got to be the most swarmy, arrogant department manager that I've ever heard of before.

The unemployed don't have anything to care about or fear in their real life? Are you for real?

By and by, my fiance is unemployed.....due to brain and nerve damage. You want to come by and run that sentence to me again now? That he doesn't have cares or fears in real life while I'm working two jobs to cover the loss of him not being able to physically and mentally work.

I dare you. You'll be running back to Microsoft Excel before you know it. Spreadsheets aren't that hard, they're tedious...any high school educated person can figure out how to work a spreadsheet. Ya ain't special, even I know how to use Microsoft Excel.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

some words I honestly didn't care enough to read

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I thought you quit... you know literally nothing you quit over has changed...just saying

Well this thread got fun today...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

Often I feel unemployed over over eagerly addicted speedrun people use these to cause flames and madness and show their pro-ness.

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I may not work, but I am a full-time college student. I raid, and I enjoy it. It’s what makes this game fun for me. Most of the people in my Ultimate static work or go to school as well. We all enjoy raiding, and we all enjoy parsing ourselves so that we can constantly push for personal improvement. But, according to you, we’re all fat and lazy unemployed basement dwellers. And addicts. Apparently. Get over yourself, please. And work on your grammar and sentence structure skills.

Your definition of “fun” doesn’t apply to everyone, just like you say the “speedrunners’” definition doesn’t apply to you. Try to keep that in mind for the next time you write an insulting and condescending forum post.

But, remember kids! Only raiders are the toxic ones around here!