DPS who do 4k worth of damage = garbage tier

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Lets be honest - this thread hasn't been about Kaiva's original post for quite some time. People brought up the subject of optimization in relation to relative damage output and The Balance is a great resource to get started on optimizing your play.

If you want to ignore that entire aspect of gameplay go right ahead but don't expect people who do put in that effort to cater to you or not talk about their interests when the conversation suits it.

You're 100% wrong- Kaiva is in no way responsible for your actions.

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Just commenting on the bad ad placement. You wouldn't advertise your brand on a racist YouTuber's channel unless you're fine with the association. So you advertise in a thread that slick promotes elitism. A lot of backpedaling here, too, and the if you're not with us then you just wanna play bad. This is a thread I hope no returner or newbie ever sees. They shouldn't feel bad about being behind but be optimistic about bettering themselves.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

The comment wasn't directed at anyone and could have meant anything. What you choose to read into it doesn't warrant that sort of response.

No, it isn't. But that isn't what happened.

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I’m sorry, but I was perfectly civil in my response to that poster. They were the one who started responding with passive-aggressive comments and continued to be vague about their very negative first post in this thread after I repeatedly requested clarification if they somehow held a different opinion. I suggest you go back and read the entire interaction, because you seemed to have missed several things—I only got abrasive when they continued to respond rudely to me and accused me of being the rude one here.

I’m sorry, but I don’t think it’s right to defend vagueness or passive-aggressiveness, and call the other party the griefers here. Now, considering that part of the conversation had been dropped (before you decided to bring it back up), kindly let it stay where it lay, and don’t cause more problems.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

This is a thread I hope no returner or newbie ever sees. They shouldn't feel bad about being behind but be optimistic about bettering themselves.

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There have been plenty of posters in this thread advocating for improvement, and even saying that low damage is dependant on several different factors—that one needs to consider them all before they make any sort of solid judgement. I can say with absolute certainty than none of my posts I have made in here have been, in any way, intended to make new players feel bad about themselves, whether they are behind or starting out. The only players I disagree with are those that want others to do all the work for them, and put in nothing on their part.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Makes sense that you would defend someone employing the "vague rudeness" strategy.

Birds of a feather...

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Makes sense you'd bring up a baseless remark over previous disputes because you have nothing else to offer.

Birds of a feather indeed!

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Bard is a special case, it's 100% impossible to get accurate numbers when bard is so proc dependent, between piercing resistance debuff and crit buffs from drg/sch your DPS can change drastically.

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Yeah add the DRG eye link to those and the parse is not the same... Especially when your team-mate align those buff to the right moment and you transform an average burst time to an ass-ripping arrow shower.

A BRD team up with RNGesus for a living and depend heavily on his team for good damage input.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Makes sense you'd bring up a baseless remark over previous disputes because you have nothing else to offer.

Birds of a feather indeed!

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Using past history to establish consistency is normal. You spent an entire thread claiming a potential epidemic yet when challenged to provide actual evidence, you balked. Sort of like the person you're now white knighting who came into a thread, made a condescending remark and whined abuse when people wanted an elaboration in lieu of vague remarks. Coincidentally, Mageblack had no such issues offering their opinion when asked. And despite mutual disagreement, the conversation remained civil—almost like elaborating when asked is a good idea so people don't assume your stance.

But you are one to enjoy assumptions, love. ;)

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Makes sense you'd bring up a baseless remark over previous disputes because you have nothing else to offer.

Birds of a feather indeed!

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Um, honey... you brought it up in your initial post whining about how Issac was 'griefed' out of the thread xD I just responded to you.

Do you want a mirror? My discord is in my signature, I can have one to you in 2 days with Amazon prime.

You know, so you can look in it and stop projecting.

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Originally Posted by Minako_Nightsong

I went back tonight and did some more Tsukuyomi SSS dummy and had the following numbers. I gave each job a few attempts. I cleared the challenge on several jobs.

Bard 361 4400-4550 I am just beating the dummy so I "qualify" lol.
RDM 352 4900-5200
DRG 361 4900

I still do not know why the bard numbers are where they are. I can honestly say I have pulled off the opener consistently well and clip nothing, get in my ogcds, and maintain my dots and song transitions. I meld into crit-dh with grade 6 materia.

Point is, not all of us are lazy or doing an ice mage rotation, we are trying real hard! :p

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BRD is a very tricky job to get consistent damage out of, because the job itself is so RNG/proc-based, and so dependant on things like piercing resistance down and critical hit enhancing buffs like Battle Litany and Chain Strategem—you can have a godly opener one pull with 2~3 3-stack Pitch Perfects and a Barrage+Refulgent, and then your next opener is a dinky one with 1 3-stack PP and you have to Barrage+Empyreal Arrow like we’re back in Heavensward.

BRD fluctuates with every pull, and it is one of the hardest DPS to optimize, and consistent damage is never really a thing with it because of its high variance. As long as you continue to try, you will be able to get where you want to be. Just don’t be discouraged to see a 5,000+ parse one pull, and a ~4,400 parse the next. Take this from a BRD main that gets really, really frustrated with my job’s high RNG some nights.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

The comment wasn't directed at anyone and could have meant anything. What you choose to read into it doesn't warrant that sort of response.

No, it isn't. But that isn't what happened.

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The guy got multiple occasion to explain his position on this thread, and elaborate his opinion. Instead of doing it, he made other posts with some sentences that makes even less sense than his first one, even getting somewhat aggressive. He was clearly in the wrong for that.

Plus, this isn't what this topic is about.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

In a garbage tier thread, really? Like indirectly telling people you're not good enough so join this group if you don't wanna be looked down on? Not everyone's stuck up. Not everyone gears up like a pro and plays like one or even geared the best at all. Because guess what, not everyone can sink hours into this game or stay subbed all the time. And this thread slick shames people who can't keep up just because you want them to adjust their gameplay to your benefit. What's in it for them? To be spared the shame? How motivating. No wonder there are folks who resist just to resist. You don't see that? You may mean well but if you're not doing/saying things right, your message gets lost.

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Nobody on this topic has asked anyone to play like a pro. Most people here have said that it's good to mess things up as long as you learn from them and you're not a burden to your group. And if people advise to join the discord of the Balance, it is mainly because it is full of people ready to help you, and a mine of information on this game. Nobody forced anyone to join.

You're just trying to transform your argument so that people who do not want to improve are seen as victims, which is wrong. It's a MMORPG, you work with teammates, as a team. You do not get carried away by others because you do not want to learn basic rotation.

Minako_Nightsong, for example, said she was trying to improve as a bard. I did not see a single post shaming her. Only words of encouragement or advice.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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I don't see anything "rude" about his comments. You jumped to your own conclusions about the context of his post, and when he said you were wrong and making assumptions about him (which you were), you quickly switched tact to calling him toxic and passive-aggressive, abruptly blaming him for not clarifying. I'd call that many things, but "civil" isn't one of them.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

But you are one to enjoy assumptions, love. ;)

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Well, you would know about assumptions, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Bard is a special case, it's 100% impossible to get accurate numbers when bard is so proc dependent, between piercing resistance debuff and crit buffs from drg/sch your DPS can change drastically.

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This. Bard is a very very special case where training dummy numbers do not really translate well at all to actual performance in raids. We are -the- most party comp dependent job in the game DPS-wise, which is mildly ironic considering we're also supposed to be the primary support DPS. And this is all because of how our proc system works and the fact that our damage type is piercing, which essentially requires a DRG in the party at minimum to bring out the really big numbers. Then consider Scholar Chain Strategem, Astrologian Spear, and all the other general damage buffs/debuffs from other jobs on top of that. Bard is pretty much all about trying to turn the RNG to your favor (from multi-dotting packs of enemies to snapshotting Iron Jaws when your buffs/debuffs on the enemy are about to fall off), and this is what lets some of the best Bards in the world keep up or even surpass top tier players of other jobs in a setting where the party comp for the Bard is the most optimized it can be, despite Bard being theoretically the lowest DPS of all the DPS jobs. It looks simple to play, but there's a lot of math and split second decisions to be made.

Every single Bard main right now will tell you that the mere presence of a Dragoon in the party these days will actually boost our own DPS by as much as 400-500. Literally 10% of our DPS in most cases. I find my opener in particular automatically loses about 2k DPS without a Dragoon in the party. The dependence among all three of the piercing jobs (DRG, BRD, and MCH) is an endless source of frustration for the latter two. It's getting to the point where many Bards I know will outright refuse to join a raid team without a Dragoon in it.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

My issue with OP’s topic is the labelling. You don’t need to classify players as garbage. In this game, you don’t need to be a top dps player or whatever to be classified as a ‘good player’. This definition will fluctuate as we are all individuals and our perspectives are unique. Personally, a good player is someone who is enjoying themselves and helps people and listens to others. Good player = good person. To me that’s more important than someone doing dps. Yes there are talented people but don’t go calling people who aren’t as talented ‘garbage’ . That’s just a trashy analogy

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You know, I’ve apologized for a lot of things in this thread – but the one thing I will NOT apologize for is something that I never said in the first place. This is how I know you have no idea what I even said originally – the intents of the thread title and the original post are contradictory. I missed putting in a question mark. I am not saying that 4k DPS are trash. I forgot to put a question mark in it – something I did say a page or two ago. That is what I am apologizing for, because I have a number of people are up in arms thinking that I have made an elitist thread. The intent originally was to ask if this was a valid statement, why or why not. It’s why I’m going to such lengths to hide myself and why I have apologized multiple times, because I have never in my life said anything like this and I don’t need people hounding me down and accusing me of being a damn elitist in-game.

I will repeat again: the title was not supposed to be a statement. It was supposed to be a question. If these asinine forums didn’t restrict me from editing it, I’d have been added a question mark already. Unfortunately, I cannot change the title of a thread, but let me be clear: it is a question, not a statement.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I don't see anything "rude" about his comments. You jumped to your own conclusions about the context of his post, and when he said you were wrong and making assumptions about him (which you were), you quickly switched tact to calling him toxic and passive-aggressive, abruptly blaming him for not clarifying. I'd call that many things, but "civil" isn't one of them.

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Repeatedly saying “this person has painted a picture of me”, repeatedly refusing to elaborate on their position, and repeatedly responding with passive-aggressive comments starting and ending with “lol”/“rofl xD”—no, there are no if’s about those comments; they were passive-aggressive and deserved to be called out as such—is displaying toxicity. If he didn’t want assumptions to made, his very first post (“This thread makes me sick to my stomach...”) could have been elaborated upon. Instead, he posts it in the midst of a debate about DPS and parsing, so, pray tell, what are people to assume? That he’s talking about dinner making him sick to his stomach? Please. He only answered what he meant by that comment well after the conversation had already devolved. Surprisingly, what made him sick he was displaying himself.

MageBlack had no issues elaborating on their position, and apologized for being a bit vague about it. And I graciously accepted his explanations, and we both apologized for our misunderstandings. It’s surprising how conversations can actually evolve and go places when you stop being vague and actually offer explanations as to why you feel the way you do. Or when you aren’t, quite frankly, a jerk with regards to your replies. Could I have perhaps not let my temper get the better of me towards the end? Perhaps. But I’m not going to agree that myself or others disagreeing with Issac were in the wrong here.

Now, do you actually have anything constructive to add to this thread? Or are you here to just stir the pot? Some are actually trying to get it back on track, or evolve it into other meaningful topics pertaining (however loosely) to the opening post, yet you jump in and continue to derail it.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

You know, I’ve apologized for a lot of things in this thread – but the one thing I will NOT apologize for is something that I never said in the first place. This is how I know you have no idea what I even said originally – the intents of the thread title and the original post are contradictory. I missed putting in a question mark. I am not saying that 4k DPS are trash. I forgot to put a question mark in it – something I did say a page or two ago. That is what I am apologizing for, because I have a number of people are up in arms thinking that I have made an elitist thread. The intent originally was to ask if this was a valid statement, why or why not. It’s why I’m going to such lengths to hide myself and why I have apologized multiple times, because I have never in my life said anything like this and I don’t need people hounding me down and accusing me of being a damn elitist in-game.

I will repeat again: the title was not supposed to be a statement. It was supposed to be a question. If these asinine forums didn’t restrict me from editing it, I’d have been added a question mark already. Unfortunately, I cannot change the title of a thread, but let me be clear: it is a question, not a statement.

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You cant put the genie back in the bottle. Not at this point. You could delete your entire OP and enter a retraction of sorts but that would be the best you could hope for. Without the ability to actually delete our own threads or even edit the titles, once its out there, its out there. You have done what you can and I know it has changed my initial impression of this thread along with actual level headed conversations about the topics that have been brought up here. I don't think its a waste of time and there has been some good debate as a result. It has not been a total loss.

One thing that has helped me a little bit when dealing with crabby people online (which is all of them?) is to remember this quote, "You you to insult me I would first have to value your opinion" for me to value your opinion I would first have to care that this random ass person online is worth the comments they made.

Then again sometimes it can be amusing to troll the trollers but there is a fine line between combating trolls and becoming a troll yourself. I try to be more of a hemorrhoid than an asshole, assholes just exist to spew out crap but hemorrhoid's irritate assholes.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

instead of actually admitting it

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Yeah, because you always admit when you are wrong about something right? /s :rolleyes:

Why are you trying to moral high ground when you don't even do what you are telling others to do.

You don't have these virtues you are telling others to have. A bit hypocritical don'tcha think?

If you post on a public forum you have to accept people may ...you know...respond to you? It's public.

You shouldn't post if you don't want replies to what you post. If you don't want people misunderstanding you it is best not to make vague comments and/or exaggerations that can seem passive aggressive, and then when asked about it you don't clarify.

Of course people aren't going to understand when someone doesn't clarify vague statements when asked. Playing the victim card and blaming everything on the people "not understanding" you when you are being purposefully vague seems ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Repeatedly saying...

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He didn't "refuse", you repeatedly made incorrect assertions he called you out on. You then foisted the responsibility for your hastily made judgements on him, and now you're hiding behind his so-called "passive-aggression" to attempt to justify it, and that's far more "toxic" than anything he may have said. If using "lol" and "xD" are signs of "toxicity" then this whole forum may as well be cast out to sea, your peers included.

"I graciously accepted his explanation"... ye gods.

Funny, that. When I'm adding onto a discussion (that wasn't so much "dropped" as having someone harassed into silence), it's "stirring the pot" or "white knighting", yet there's a group of you that are virtually incapable of saying anything without the other three or four joining in.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Funny, that. When I'm adding onto a discussion (that wasn't so much "dropped" as having someone harassed into silence), it's "stirring the pot" or "white knighting", yet there's a group of you that are virtually incapable of saying anything without the other three or four joining in.

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I've only been casually observing this thread, but I feel that I have to comment on this. Have you stopped to consider that you actually are?

Even a quick glance at your recent post history yields a very high aggressiveness/post count ratio, and that seems extremely unhealthy to one's judgment.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

He didn't "refuse"

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If, somehow, your position is different, why don’t you try clarifying instead of making passive-aggressive remarks.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And as I said before (in the post you actually did quote), if you had a different position with regards to parsers, maybe you could clarify it instead of being passive-aggressive and vague.

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I asked no less than twice for a clarification of his position—his comments gave nothing to go on other than a negative one. Unless you consider “this thread makes me sick to my stomach” a positive comment. He didn’t actually clarify what his first comment meant until Dualgunner asked, which was after the back and forth with me.

Keep in mind that both of my responses were to the following comments:

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Originally Posted by Issac

This person seems to have painted a picture of me.

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Originally Posted by Issac

A lotta aspiring painters, it would seem :/

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Originally Posted by Issac

See that tiny graphic next to your name in the quote? The one with the tiny 2 white triangles? Click that. See my name quoted in that(your) post? Yes, I'm referring to that.

I am saying you are making claims about me that are simply not true. I don't know why I need to spell this out. :)

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I don’t know how any of these are clarifications when I blatantly requested them. They are passive-aggressive/condescending remarks, however.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

”I graciously accepted his explanation”...ye gods.

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I mean, I did. :) But I take it you skipped over that part of the thread.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Funny, that. When I’m adding onto a discussion (that wasn’t so much “dropped” as having someone harassed into silence), it’s “stirring the pot” or “white knighting”

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No, the back and forth between Issac and the rest of us had not been a thing for several posts; the conversation had since shifted to Discords versus FCs with regards to mentorship and forming communities/networking. You came into the thread and tried to bring it to the forefront again, and have refused to drop it. That’s called “stirring the pot”. This thread isn’t about Issac; it’s about opinions surrounding damage, and has evolved into a discussion about parsing and personal improvement, and posters’ opinions on that. Yet, you seem pretty intent on keep the conversation about something people aren’t even concerned about anymore.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

yet there’s a group of you that are virtually incapable of saying anything without the other three or four joining in.

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Have you ever considered that maybe myself and others don’t have patience for nonconstructive posts? Or posts that turn a largely civil debate into a hostile one? I’ve been in plenty of debates without some of the posters in here, and, likewise, they have been in their own debates without me present at all even in passing. Mayhaps we’re all in here disagreeing with you (and Issac) because we just happen to share similar opinions?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

He didn't "refuse", you repeatedly made incorrect assertions he called you out on.

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No, he repeatedly called people trying to understand his initial post, which was equally vague, "painters" in lieu of simply elaborating on his actual stance. Isaac never wanted a discussion, but simply a sounding board where he could mouth off without being called out. If he did, well, he would have elaborated like literally everyone else posting here.

And there you go with assumptions again. Are people not allowed to share similar opinions? We are all active forum posters, there is going to be frequent cross over, especially on more heated discussions. Coincidentally, I have argued with both Moro and Miste in other threads. Guess what? They always remained civil because neither are passive aggressive. It's almost as though being vague doesn't help your argument.

As someone reading these threads with popcorn and tea, I will say that I find it interesting that the people I tend to agree with overall (I'm not a fan of parsing) are often the ones who end up on my block list for being super aggressive and the folks I don't agree with are the ones who I still have no interest in blocking because I enjoy reading logical comments and rebuttals.

There's reasonable people on both sides, and there's aggressors on both sides, but I really do enjoy the stretches where I actually see people debating these issues with examples and facts and not name-calling, elitism, hyperbole, and scare-mongering. I have strong feelings on this subject, but I can see both sides, and I wish we could have more threads where people actually debate. Those of you trying to bring logic into these threads, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Asiragan

Nobody on this topic has asked anyone to play like a pro. Most people here have said that it's good to mess things up as long as you learn from them and you're not a burden to your group. And if people advise to join the discord of the Balance, it is mainly because it is full of people ready to help you, and a mine of information on this game. Nobody forced anyone to join.

You're just trying to transform your argument so that people who do not want to improve are seen as victims, which is wrong. It's a MMORPG, you work with teammates, as a team. You do not get carried away by others because you do not want to learn basic rotation.

Minako_Nightsong, for example, said she was trying to improve as a bard. I did not see a single post shaming her. Only words of encouragement or advice.

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I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

And I wouldn't want any newbie or returner to read through this possibly anxiety inducing experience of a thread. There are good threads in this forum that are helpful, plenty of them, minus the pressure.

kaiva, people are talking generally about the trend for players in a mass, not you specifically. If people give you grief in pms and in game, just blacklist them. It's not Kaiva saying this, its more people are strident for or against the idea of a player being garbage or not. You are ok, its just the anxiety I think. I know the feeling, I have it in another way.

Jellybums, yeah the issue isn't improving as much as the labeling. There's a lot of very negative talk when it comes to dps performance, kind of centered around a view of the player as burden or hindrance. Again, I think SE has a little bit to blame here due to savage setup, but players get really intense when people aren't perceived as carrying their own weight. It's weird to me because people often play this as a refuge from the same attitudes in the real world, and in this imaginary one we just bring the baggage back in.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

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Addressing the “shaming” part of this: if the person wants to improve, how is one shaming them by advising they join communities that are well-equipped to help them improve? I generally don’t offer advice in-game anymore because of the amount of backlash you tend to receive for even suggesting it, but if I hear of someone wanting to get better, I try to point them to a place where they can at least start. I’ve had positive experiences in the Balance Discord, so I’m inclined to direct people who want to learn there.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is

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I feel legitimately bad for posting this after InkstainedGwyn's lovely appeal to logic, reason and decency but... take your entire post and the steps you took to formulate it back to tumblr, please.

There have been people getting and giving helpful advice and encouragement throughout this thread and you want to latch on to the negative. It's legitimately insane to me. Positive reinforcement and help is a good thing no matter where it is found.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I asked no less...

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You only bothered to ask for clarification after making a snap judgement no less than three times between you, by which point all he'd done is say you were wrong. Then you called him passive-aggressive and toxic and acted as if that's all you'd done all along. You didn't request anything before then, and I don't see anything condescending about remarking on it.

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I mean, I did. :) But I take it you skipped over that part of the thread.

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...nevermind.

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snip

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There was a reason why it hasn't "been a thing" for several posts, which is part of what drove me to saying something.

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snip

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And I'm here because I agreed with Issac. How is that any different?

I'm not even going to bother commenting on the irony of "civil debates becoming hostile ones" when practically every thread I've seen some people here in has turned into a twenty page tangent arguing about something or other, regardless of my presence.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

boop

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No, I just comment on behaviour I don't agree with, and I found what's transpired over the course of this thread nauseating. If that's aggression then... all right, I guess that makes me aggressive.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Coincidentally, I have argued with both Moro and Miste in other threads. Guess what? They always remained civil because neither are passive aggressive.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

... all right, I guess that makes me aggressive.



https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

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I am in awe of your ability to prove the assertions of others about you correct with the very actions you deny those assertions with. It's like you are a living irony machine and a small part of me is jealous.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it's shaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

And I wouldn't want any newbie or returner to read through this possibly anxiety inducing experience of a thread. There are good threads in this forum that are helpful, plenty of them, minus the pressure.

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Being very good comes with pressure. The better you want to get, the more pressure you will have on you, it's almost impossible to have one without the other.

Those of us that can be relaxed while still performing well are rare, the majority of people, when it comes to improving there will be pressure. Even in this thread, reading through it, the people who have stated they are trying to improve have been given advice and positive reinforcement, while those insisting that poor performance should be rewarded were met with negative responses.

Subpar performance is referred to as "garbage tier" because of the savage content in the game. If you achieve 4k or lower on average in raids that are savage rated, then in essence, that is garbage. Rather crude word but it gets the point across very well. In non-savage raids 4k or less may be acceptable, but in savage, it is not and should never be accepted. That is obviously only with BiS gear.

If you would've actually read through the entire thread, you would've noticed quite a few positive comments related to people that want to improve. Clearly you did not see them, or chose to ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

You only bothered to ask for clarification after making a snap judgement no less than three times between you, by which point all he'd done is say you were wrong. Then you called him passive-aggressive and toxic and acted as if that's all you'd done all along. You didn't request anything before then, and I don't see anything condescending about remarking on it.

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I requested it immediately after his reply to me commenting on both his and MageBlack’s comments, which both carried negative connotations. Go back and read them. I didn’t call him passive aggressive until he responded with “This person seems to have painted a picture of me”. Because that comment is very much passive-aggressive, in my opinion—it offers nothing to the conversation, and, in my perspective, was a failed attempt at trying to sound snarky. Which, again, offered nothing to the conversation, much less his position or what actually made him feel sick to his stomach. The conversation had shifted to parsers, and Mage’s comment was explicitedly about parsers; Issac’s came immediately before it, and after the conversation had shifted. I asked them to try and see past their prejudices. Me calling Issac “a toxic one” was in regards to his comments adding no depth to his position, and instead of giving depth to my first response to his negative comment, he replied with a painter comment—not only to me but to another poster. Again, he offered no clarification, and got angry when people got frustrated with him for offering no clarification. With only the flow of conversation to go by, how wrong is it to presume the thing that “made him sick” was parsers? Or DPS?

His comment regarding the quote arrows was also very condescending, and I don’t know how you can even attempt to paint it otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

...nevermind

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My first assumption towards your remark there was that you were making a jab at the way I speak. I’m sorry that you take issues with that if that’s the case, but that’s just how I talk. If you don’t like it, you’re free to add me to your Ignore List. Unless you’re insinuating that I wasn’t gracious about MageBlack’s explanation? Because, if I recall, I did tell him I appreciated it.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

There was a reason why it hasn't "been a thing" for several posts, which is part of what drove me to saying something.

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The aside between Issac and the rest had nothing to do with the thread topic. It was a derailment just like your posts and this back and forth with you are a derailment—he made comments people didn’t agree with, people asked him to clarify, and he still refused to do so while continuing to get angry with people “painting pictures” of him. Don’t want people to assume your position? Why don’t you try clarifying it from the get-go? Is that really so hard to do? I guess it is. It wasn’t “pushing him into silence” or whatever it was that you called it—from what I see, he left of his own accord.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

If that's aggression then... all right, I guess that makes me aggressive.

[quote from other poster]

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

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Then what is this, then?


I’m done arguing with you, because you’re just wanting to argue. If you want to actually have a conversation, my Discord is in my signature.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Addressing the “shaming” part of this: if the person wants to improve, how is one shaming them by advising they join communities that are well-equipped to help them improve? I generally don’t offer advice in-game anymore because of the amount of backlash you tend to receive for even suggesting it, but if I hear of someone wanting to get better, I try to point them to a place where they can at least start. I’ve had positive experiences in the Balance Discord, so I’m inclined to direct people who want to learn there.

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For one I wouldn't put Balance Discord keywords together with 4k DPS garbage tier FFXIV or whatever's search engine optimized the same way I wouldn't put "too fat for prom" with acai berries or whatever the fat loss trend is. Because like it or not, you'll be eliciting feelings of shame and anxiety with your call to action. Something like Potato to Savage DPS in 5 Mins a Day would make someone more inclined to listen since they're not on the defensive.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

For one I wouldn't put Balance Discord keywords together with 4k DPS garbage tier FFXIV or whatever's search engine optimized the same way I wouldn't put "too fat for prom" with acai berries or whatever the fat loss trend is. Because like it or not, you'll be eliciting feelings of shame and anxiety with your call to action. Something like Potato to Savage DPS in 5 Mins a Day would make someone more inclined to listen since they're not on the defensive.

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I don’t really think the purpose of this thread is a “call to action”, though. It’s more so an opinion thread, and there are a myriad of opinions in here. Not all of them are positive, and not all of them are negative. I don’t think you can have an opinion thread without a mixture of both. To be honest, I’m a little bit confused as to what you are getting at with your post.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

I'm straight out saying you can't fat shame people into going to the gym, or shame players into joining a Discord server. And this goes to everyone who unwittingly have misplaced their critiques here of DPS performance right in this thread. You don't have to call other players garbage tier but by critiquing "subpar" DPS performance here, you reinforce the message of subpar as garbage tier. Look, it may not be dick pic in a billboard advertising a car or insurance, but if it'sshaped like one and perceived as one, it's just as inappropriate. Same with all the critiques here. This isn't the thread where you can be helpful without reinforcing a very negative message. That's just how it is.

And I wouldn't want any newbie or returner to read through this possibly anxiety inducing experience of a thread. There are good threads in this forum that are helpful, plenty of them, minus the pressure.

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So we should let "subpar" dps be, while the players who actually try to do their jobs will have to do even more dps so that the group don't hit the enrage?
As I said before, I don't feel like letting people in ignorance is showing them kindness.

There is no shaming if they see the parse for themselves. And it would avoid the situation that Bourne_Endeavor spoke of before this one :

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Case in point, HyoMin and I had a Samurai laugh at us, claiming we "sucked" and to get out of his Tsuki party. DPS was approximately....

Hyo: 5,000
Me: 3,900 (was left dead on the floor for almost a minute)
WAR: 3,600
SAM: 3,100
DRG: 2.600

See the problem there? Oh, the DRG didn't die either. And this is what annoys me with "parsers are just toxic players" argument. Clearly, the SAM wasn't parsing yet felt he was carrying the party. Worst part about it? They were both wearing i350-370 gear.

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Does it seems like a normal situation to you? That the good players are the one being "shamed" as you like to say it while the bad one is putting pressure on everyone while dragging the fight for him and for the other?

But how can you reason people like that without a parser? I don't think you can. Or at least, not as long as the ToS will continue to block you from stating the truth.

In my opinion, bad players aren't the victims. The victims are actually everyone who has to deal with them.


Plus, even though "pressure" did happen at the start of the thread, it finally quiet down, and now people have really civile discussion. I really don't think that people are fragile enough to be hurt by that, and I like to think that they are also smart enough to read after the few firsts pages before making their own opinion on the topic.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

snop

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I don't see anything passive-aggressive about that comment. It's the truth, even if you didn't like the "tone" he's supposed to have said it in. You'd already made up your mind about what he was saying and why, and convinced yourself he was "anti-parser" when he never said anything like that, and he said as much. You're holding onto what you took his comment to sound like to justify it. "Toxic" is a strong word, and throwing it around because you made the wrong judgement and someone reacted accordingly is overreaching. Even if you insist his "vagueness" is adequate reason for what followed, he was not "hostile" or "toxic" by any margin, and if your basis for that is because he said "lol xD" then... wow.

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snip.

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It's more using "graciously" to refer to yourself seems... a little at odds with the term itself.

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snip.

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A derailment you technically caused misreading his comment? Impressive how you've managed to twist that around. "People asked him to clarify and he got angry with people "painting pictures" of him - the "painting pictures" came first, causing the dispute in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

boop

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And I'm in awe of your ability to try and stay relevant in a discussion by using tumblr-level comebacks when you have nothing else to say. Brava.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Being very good comes with pressure. The better you want to get, the more pressure you will have on you, it's almost impossible to have one without the other.

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Pressure that comes with the challenge of the job of course. You accept that when you take the job, no need to say. I'm speaking of peer pressure, specifically with labels/name calling/performance shaming.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Those of us that can be relaxed while still performing well are rare, the majority of people, when it comes to improving there will be pressure. Even in this thread, reading through it, the people who have stated they are trying to improve have been given advice and positive reinforcement, while those insisting that poor performance should be rewarded were met with negative responses.

Subpar performance is referred to as "garbage tier" because of the savage content in the game. If you achieve 4k or lower on average in raids that are savage rated, then in essence, that is garbage. Rather crude word but it gets the point across very well. In non-savage raids 4k or less may be acceptable, but in savage, it is not and should never be accepted. That is obviously only with BiS gear.

If you would've actually read through the entire thread, you would've noticed quite a few positive comments related to people that want to improve. Clearly you did not see them, or chose to ignore them.

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That's the only thing I take issue with is the label, and commented on a bad ad placement in my opinion. Calling someone not making the cut as garbage is not and should never be acceptable. He/she just doesn't make the cut for savage. That's it. Let's not just place standards on performance but behavior as well towards other players, and keep this community respectful. Also keep our expectations realistic and save ourselves the disappointment.

I don't mean to sound egotistical, but I still vote my first post in this thread as the one true answer to the original topic.

Im not sure how y'all can manage to even push buttons anymore... arnt your fingers swollen from all this salt? The only "garbage tier" is bad attitudes... I mean is this REALLY that important that it needed 8 pages?

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Im not sure how y'all can manage to even push buttons anymore... arnt your fingers swollen from all this salt? The only "garbage tier" is bad attitudes... I mean is this REALLY that important that it needed 8 pages?

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At some point, I imagine it's better to fight it than to watch certain people crap up the thread on purpose in a thinly veiled attempt to shut down all reasonable discussion on the topic. I saw plenty of this kind of crap during my time as a moderator at an official forum for a different MMO. You learn to identify agendas really quick.

Those with a lower capacity for logic tend to be consistent across threads, even when pretending.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t really think the purpose of this thread is a “call to action”, though. It’s more so an opinion thread, and there are a myriad of opinions in here. Not all of them are positive, and not all of them are negative. I don’t think you can have an opinion thread without a mixture of both. To be honest, I’m a little bit confused as to what you are getting at with your post.

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It wasn't a call to action thread, but it took a life of its own long ago. And mention the discord server here enough, it might land on the first couple of pages of search engine results with keywords 4k DPS FFXIV or something. But anyway, I digress.

Hyo covered how some factors can affect parses near the start of this thread. Vidu pointed out on the first page about people that don't care and so blatantly show it im going to call them out on it. People in bis 370 gear with 375 weapon is going to see way different numbers than somebody 20 ilvls lower.

Ever since the first "parser" thread debate that I have seen on these forums I have been convinced 90% of people don't know how statistics work.

I can do 12K DPS, but not per second.

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Originally Posted by Asiragan

Does it seems like a normal situation to you? That the good players are the one being "shamed" .

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I know you don't talk to me... but... many scenarios where dps say someone else is shit/bad/etc, where I, as a tank out dps them. People just got by asuming they do good without proof,while people who do know it, wont even say it, most of the time. I certainly know its a shame a tank out dps a actual dps, but I won't tell them, they will find out at some point and only they can have a reaction to it.

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Originally Posted by Asiragan

Does it seems like a normal situation to you? That the good players are the one being "shamed" as you like to say it while the bad one is putting pressure on everyone while dragging the fight for him and for the other?

But how can you reason people like that without a parser? I don't think you can. Or at least, not as long as the ToS will continue to block you from stating the truth.

In my opinion, bad players aren't the victims. The victims are actually everyone who has to deal with them.


Plus, even though "pressure" did happen at the start of the thread, it finally quiet down, and now people have really civile discussion. I really don't think that people are fragile enough to be hurt by that, and I like to think that they are also smart enough to read after the few firsts pages before making their own opinion on the topic.

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In my experience, this happens far more often than raiders shaming casual players. I've even been in pugs where someone outright mentioned numbers yet did so in a completely diplomatic manner. He simply wanted to convey why the WAR couldn't hold aggro off a BRD or DRG; his damage was far too low for the cheese opener he was attempting.

Likewise, I share your opinion. What irks me to no end isn't inexperience, but players who absolutely refuse to better themselves yet get upset when everyone else doesn't wish to tolerant it. Many of those same people scream about it "just being a game!" Well, it isn't a fun game when I joined that farm party and basically had to carry all but two people. Although, it certainly made me laugh.