Dragoons... how do you feel post 4.0?

Is it just me? Or is sonic thrust hot garbage?

It's great, you can get your eyes from Mirage Dive and pump BotD up to 25-30 seconds, then DS>ST 3-4 times, then return back to your rotation to get back BotD time. Just be sure to stop DS>STing when you're about to get your 4th eye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

It's great, you can get your eyes from Mirage Dive and pump BotD up to 25-30 seconds, then DS>ST 3-4 times, then return back to your rotation to get back BotD time. Just be sure to stop DS>STing when you're about to get your 4th eye.

---

Feels pretty lack luster in comparison to the 3 other melee. Still very much useable... just dissapointing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by misterwuggles

I'll still do everything available with DRG but I'm likely moving it down from my MAIN main.

---

I may do the same... I don't hate the new mechanics but I'm not in love with them either. If they make a few adjustments, let me get into Nastronds earlier and give something else to expend BotD gauge on when I know I'm going to lose it in a fight during a lull in action, the job could be super fun again!

Don't know about y'all's servers, but it seems on my server, party finders for many Ex content is now being slotted for any DPS other than DRG and sometimes Monk. This needs to be fixed, this is a big problem.

Lol, what's a dragoon?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jason33w

Don't know about y'all's servers, but it seems on my server, party finders for many Ex content is now being slotted for any DPS other than DRG and sometimes Monk. This needs to be fixed, this is a big problem.

---

The people doing this probably do not understand that all content that is currently released is doable with either of those jobs. The are also people you probably don't want to be partied with anyway.

Asked questions to the live letter forum from me included: Fixing BotD/Nastrond, eyes, etc.; getting rid of jump lock since they're an integral part of building our eyes and holding them is no longer an option really; are there plans to make further job adjustments before Omega-Savage goes live.

Hopefully we'll get some answers.

Jump Lock should've been fixed years ago. There is virtually no situation where having Jump return you to your starting position is useful, and we knew this back in 2.0. I also love how RDM essentially gets an Elusive Jump that does damage with a faster cooldown.

Dragon's Gaze stacks need to remain regardless if BotD wears off or not, especially if they're going to continually have battles where there's nothing to attack for a solid 20 plus seconds (like Susano, who takes his sweet time driving his giant sword down).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonus

Feels pretty lack luster in comparison to the 3 other melee. Still very much useable... just dissapointing.

---

Let's see, DRG's 130->170 potency AoE Combo....

Compared to...110 potency Death Blossom?
Compared to...130 potency Rock Breaker (which can only be used consequitevely in Perfect Balance, otherwise 50 potency Arm of the Destroyer)?

SAM wins out, but DRG is definitely second best.

Quote:

---

Jump Lock should've been fixed years ago. There is virtually no situation where having Jump return you to your starting position is useful, and we knew this back in 2.0. I also love how RDM essentially gets an Elusive Jump that does damage with a faster cooldown.

---

I agree but I doubt SE will give us Jump as a 4th gap closer.

I'd be interested to hear your guys thoughts on a different mechanic being added to dragoons: In the old games (FF1-4 old) dragoons could always use jump or high jump to avoid damage while they 'charged' a high damage attack. Would it be broken to add something like this to FF14?

Lets say at 70 instead of Nastrond we get High Jump. It still has to be charged similar to Nastrond but once we have enough eyes stored we can leap up into the air for X seconds, avoiding all damage (maybe some attacks still hurt to balance it) and then do a high potency AoE or single target attack on our way down. Maybe it can be used at 1 eye, but does more damage the more eyes you have so we could use it faster if we wanted.

So, brokenly OP and dumb or would this be an improvement?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KFP7

I'd be interested to hear your guys thoughts on a different mechanic being added to dragoons: In the old games (FF1-4 old) dragoons could always use jump or high jump to avoid damage while they 'charged' a high damage attack. Would it be broken to add something like this to FF14?

---

Devs said early on this will never happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koroem

Devs said early on this will never happen.

---

Ah, well nevermind then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Let's see, DRG's 130->170 potency AoE Combo....

Compared to...110 potency Death Blossom?
Compared to...130 potency Rock Breaker (which can only be used consequitevely in Perfect Balance, otherwise 50 potency Arm of the Destroyer)?

SAM wins out, but DRG is definitely second best.

---

Despite how counterintuitive it is that our main mechanic in BotD/LotD and Geirskogul which focuses in aoe damage does not benefit from doing our aoe rotation and actually suffers from it. I dislike this aspect of Dragoon and wish Nastrond or Geirskogul was single target in nature

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Let's see, DRG's 130->170 potency AoE Combo....

Compared to...110 potency Death Blossom?
Compared to...130 potency Rock Breaker (which can only be used consequitevely in Perfect Balance, otherwise 50 potency Arm of the Destroyer)?

SAM wins out, but DRG is definitely second best.

---

Not even close.

You aren't accounting for the fact that DRG isn't sustainable as you aren't able to refresh your core mechanic even if you have copious amounts of it.

MNK aoe will always be high than DRG due to elixir field being broken AF and now with riddle of fire memes it is incredibly powerful.
NIN now has hellfrog and ten - chi - jin which makes its aoe much better alongside katon and doton.
DRG has quite good aoe IF you are in LotD but otherwise it is pretty flat, not to mention its coverage is shit due to it all being lines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

Not even close.

You aren't accounting for the fact that DRG isn't sustainable as you aren't able to refresh your core mechanic even if you have copious amounts of it.

MNK aoe will always be high than DRG due to elixir field being broken AF and now with riddle of fire memes it is incredibly powerful.
NIN now has hellfrog and ten - chi - jin which makes its aoe much better alongside katon and doton.
DRG has quite good aoe IF you are in LotD but otherwise it is pretty flat, not to mention its coverage is shit due to it all being lines.

---

I don't think Nin's even scales down like Samurai's AoE does it? I thought Katon was flat potency for some reason

It is, during ten chi jin the potential burst aoe is nonsensical. It hits all enemies for 250/500 potency and doton ticks all enemies for 320/640 potency. Hellfrog hits all enemies for 400 potency also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KFP7

In the old games (FF1-4 old) dragoons could always use jump or high jump to avoid damage while they 'charged' a high damage attack.

---

Honestly, I don't even care if Jump starts to take me back to my old position as long as it doesn't lock freeze me there for a second causing me to eat a floor mechanic that I should've been able to start moving away from mid-return of said Jump. There are numerous games where you jump attack and start to return back where you came from but it allows you to alter your landing point in mid-air on the way back. Why SE can't or won't work to fix that is the quite possibly the biggest combat mystery this game has ever had.

It's been a distinct disadvantage to the job from inception but is now even more glaring because we need to be able to use them asap to get into our core mechanic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

DRG has quite good aoe IF you are in LotD but otherwise it is pretty flat, not to mention its coverage is shit due to it all being lines.

---

DRG AoE and LotD are mutually exclusive. Which is also a problem, but let's try to nip this perception in the bud, please. The role of BotD in an AoE session is to enable Geirskogul and buff jumps, not to make it take so long you can actually use Nastrond.

(Alas, I'm about to get on the road, math will have to wait.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

DRG AoE and LotD are mutually exclusive. Which is also a problem, but let's try to nip this perception in the bud, please. The role of BotD in an AoE session is to enable Geirskogul and buff jumps, not to make it take so long you can actually use Nastrond.

(Alas, I'm about to get on the road, math will have to wait.)

---

The only time aoe is currently applicable is in dungeons. With that being the case all I meant is that if you have LotD up already, you can do your aoe rotation and get nastronds off. As it is, due to GSK having a longer cd than BotD and jump having an equivalent, you don't even have to keep it up. You can just pop BotD everytime you are gonna use the jumps or GSK.

The nature of the aoe is important too when it comes to actual fights. Something like A2S is actually pretty good for current DRG.

I don't even know the point I'm trying to make anymore, just putting this out there.

Even if it is only applicable in dungeons, for a lot of the more casual audience in the game that is the meat and still something that needs to be done a least a little bit by everyone, and frankly playing DRG in dungeons right now is one of the most unenjoyable experiences in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyrios91

words 'n numbers 'n shit

---

To make sure; you did not count the Monk as a direct beneficiary of Brotherhood, correct? Monks don't benefit from their own Brotherhood's damage buff. Only asking because I saw the (5/8)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

The only time aoe is currently applicable is in dungeons. With that being the case all I meant is that if you have LotD up already, you can do your aoe rotation and get nastronds off. As it is, due to GSK having a longer cd than BotD and jump having an equivalent, you don't even have to keep it up. You can just pop BotD everytime you are gonna use the jumps or GSK.

---

I get that, I'm a bit overeager on this topic because I often see Nastrond come up in implied AoE contexts here and on Reddit when it's just not supposed to be a likely situation ever. My first level 70 dungeon (everyone there was in leveling gear and it's already item level synced off the bat), I ended up getting to four eyes only on the last boss even though the tank went all Sanic on us.

But to show a bit of my thinking:

DRG's spammy bits (1.15x multiplier from HT) are 172.5/target from weaponskills (~69pps x 12/13 to reflect HT = ~63.7), 253/35s per target from geirskogul (7.23pps), and 345/120s from Dragonfire (2.875pps) for about 73.42 pps on non-primary targets.

MNK (1.43x multiplier for Twin Snakes + GL3) has 185.9 every third weaponskill plus 3 bonus from Perfect Balance (87.5pps x ~31/85 GCDs = ~31.9pps), 300.3/60s from Howling Fist (5.005pps), 314.6/30s from Elixir Field (10.49pps) for about 47.4 pps on non-primary targets.

Potencies aren't completely comparable and burst in trash pulls counts for wayyyy more than these ballpark estimates, but MNK clearly needs to work its single-target and burst to not get entirely outclassed. DRG needs to more... not get tired of 121212121212. (I don't have good AoE estimates on NIN/SAM because I haven't leveled them yet, I just know MNK because its AoE hasn't changed significantly.)

Goon is absolutely FUBAR right now. Lowest dps, complicated and punishing mechanics, hair ripping suceptibility to mechanics in ANY scenario. Unbelivable regression.... hell PVP goon feels better than this PVE cancer. I refuse to believe the dev and people tesing goon before release enjoyed it.

Can SE swap PVP and PVE goon plz ?

How about some buffs to drg @SE?
I mean, I main ninja atm and i feel like ninja should be the lowest melee dps, yet drg is way behind LOL... but for what reason? How is SE even justifying drg being so far behind? You guys playtested the class?
Balance the game out. Buff drg and nerf Sam slightly (kaiten down to ~30%).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Maths

---

Oh no I completely agree, the fact that nastrond and GSK are AoE hurts the abilities more than benefits (as I am like 90% sure this is how the devs justify their mediocre potencies).

To be completely honest, and this isn't a popular opinion but I enjoy the eye system despite the fact that there are glaring flaws that I wont deny exists purely because it actually rewards critical thinking. What I don't like is that DRG is so weak. Call me an elitist but if DRG remained completely the same but had comparable ceilings to the other melee dps then I would be 100% ok with that. I don't speak for everyone but I like playing DRG and most likely if not for parsers I wouldn't have an issue. That being said Nastrond needs a significant buff. Just make it like Guren and drop off damage for extra targets while making the main target take max damage.

I had an idea to make it more of a fun ability but it probably wouldn't be good in execution: Nastrond does 320 Potency + the duration left on LotD x10 on the first target and etc. This would make a max duration nastrond 620 potency and if it is done asap, it would be 520 and 420 (optimal conditions, not accounting for any server delay shit) but that would just be a gimmicky way of making it around 500 potency. This is around a 50% increase in damage which is huge, probably overpowered as nastrond is currently roughly 4% damage in a fight with near maximum usage (Susano, you only really lose one but on Lak you lose BotD completely along with any eyes) and that equated to about 90k damage based on that run (should probably average them out but this is from a 98 percentile run) so with this buff it would add about 50k damage accounting for the increase in Dhit and Chit damage and added multipliers from all the other shiz).

This is sneezed on tissue paper math so I anyone wants to go in more detail feel free. That being said I do feel that nastrond isn't the only thing that is weak so if they do buff its damage they want to make it well rounded.

This would be my proposed changes:
- Disembowel back to 10%
- Keep the eyes if BOTD falls (polyglot stack from BLM, anyone?)
- Dragon fire dive gives dive ready
- Dragon Sight same cooldown as B4B
- Battle Litany 120s from 180s. Really, every other major buff is on a much lower cool down than this. There's no justification.

Yeah that is simple and doesn't fuck with the class too much. I personally think that as our shiny level 70 ability Nastrond should be much stronger as it contributes less than mirage dive which is just a resource for our eyes and dragon sight should be 15% and 10% to make it like the old BfB coupled with the same timer or if they absolutely insist on making DRG the support melee (which I hope the reconsider) just make it 10% and 15% so it buffs the other person more than the DRG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

To be completely honest, and this isn't a popular opinion but I enjoy the eye system despite the fact that there are glaring flaws that I wont deny exists purely because it actually rewards critical thinking. What I don't like is that DRG is so weak. Call me an elitist but if DRG remained completely the same but had comparable ceilings to the other melee dps then I would be 100% ok with that.
I had an idea to make it more of a fun ability but it probably wouldn't be good in execution: cool damage based on duration idea

---

I 100% agree with you and your idea is stupid good. I'd like to play that. Also wouldn't hurt to have F&C and WT buffed since they make up 19% of our damage, on par with our autoattack. And they are pretty much our only weapon skills not buffed to account for disembowel and bfb nerf.

as someone that has mained drg since i started playing back in 2015, i almost feel... lost? yes, the rotation has been simplified, something maybe a lot of people are happy about but god the core mechanic is so unrewarding, which has been brought up numerous times throughtout this thread. forget about me trying to keep my eyes up between pulls and watching them fall off :/ i'm HOPING maybe they do a (small?) rehaul on the job, but until then, i'm strongly considering switching "mains".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by killstein

yes, the rotation has been simplified, something maybe a lot of people are happy about

---

No it hasn't. The base Rotation lost 1 DoT and gained 2 positionals. The same problem of BoTD uptime is still there and now with an added penalty of 4 eye stacks. Mirage Dive is used far more than Power Surge and Dragon Sight has a very small range limit when compaired to Internal Release. Rotation got more complex.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erys

I 100% agree with you and your idea is stupid good. I'd like to play that. Also wouldn't hurt to have F&C and WT buffed since they make up 19% of our damage, on par with our autoattack. And they are pretty much our only weapon skills not buffed to account for disembowel and bfb nerf.

---

Indeed, considering they are positionals aswell and the fucking bosses love to spin they could stand to gain like 50 more potency. 290/320 potency isn't bad but we do them very often.

They are one of the biggest part of our DPS because we use each one 2 times in our rotation. For a single rotation, F&C and WT "count as" 610 potency each. IMO they feel pretty good right now, and it's more a matter of fixing other things (Nastrond and LotD for instance) than buffing them. But i don't know, since it's one of our gimmick, buffing them might be a good idea ? Or have LotD boost them ?

On that note too sighs I was excluded from a Hunt PT for being a DRG . . . that hurts a bit . . .

I wonder if they can fix Dragon Sight to be in line with a concept of mine...

Cooldown changed to line up with BfB.
15% damage buff for the DRG, 10% damage for the tethered target.
Max reach of the tether is 10 yalms.
If the target is within 5 yalms (melee synergy) they get the full red tether, and the full 10% damage bonus. If the target is past 5 yalms (ranged, or melee needs to perform a mechanic), the tether turns blue, and decreases to 5% damage bonus.

I was thinking they could make LoTD upkeep similar to old BoTD upkeep, but that wouldn't work well at all with Dragon Eyes, and Mirage Dive. Obviously, the first change would have to be to remove Eyes from the BoTD meter. Then, make it it's own mechanic. Each Dragon Eye stack gained could be a passive benefit to the DRG. Let's just say something like 2.5% additional damage per eye stack. At max eyes (4) you'd have 10% extra damage on all outgoing damage from the DRG. That way, the gear up for LoTD is giving you something rather than just the gratification of seeing a pulsing eye.

At max eye stacks, Geirskogul turns into Nastrond (10 second cooldown).
Using Nastrond at 4 eye stacks will consume them, doubling the passive damage bonus from the consumed Eye stacks for 10 seconds.

Or perhaps a flexible system where you could consume eye stacks at any time to enter LoTD, but the amount of eye stacks consumed determines the amount of LoTD time you have. I've got so many ideas...

Also I think Dragon Sight should get a buff to make it equivalent to Trick Attack. So if trick attack affects 8 people every minute and dragon sight only 2 every two minutes, make dragon sight hit like a truck.
Say dragoon gets 15% and the target, the supported one (because remember we are now support x'D), gets like 50%+ damage up. That way we get our damage from old bfb kindaish back and we properly support to match trick attack even if it's a 1 person version.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrazyViet228

On that note too sighs I was excluded from a Hunt PT for being a DRG . . . that hurts a bit . . .

---

If stuff like this is already happening, then there is already toxicity being created in the community as a result of DRG's current state. Whether or not it's subjective, people are already seeing DRG as undesirable, time will tell if this will spill over to DRG being barred from entering meta compositions or savage parties in general. Didn't realize the situation had become so dire.

I have faith though, even if it's hard. I rode with DRG through all the BS from 2.x til now. I will say the current SB DRG is probably the worst DRG has been (worse than Impulse Drive and Heavy Thrust requiring a positional to function back in 2.x) but we just gotta ride this one out too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AzureKoi

I will say the current SB DRG is probably the worst DRG has been (worse than Impulse Drive and Heavy Thrust requiring a positional to function back in 2.x) but we just gotta ride this one out too.

---

I wouldn't go that far. Those abilities requiring positionals, on top of the insanely long animations on jumps, on top of our horrible defensive capabilities/stats, made us so bad that the Dragoon job literally became a meme that persists to this day. The only reason people even brought us along back then was because Nin/Sam didn't exist yet to replace us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AzureKoi

If stuff like this is already happening, then there is already toxicity being created in the community as a result of DRG's current state. Whether or not it's subjective, people are already seeing DRG as undesirable, time will tell if this will spill over to DRG being barred from entering meta compositions or savage parties in general. Didn't realize the situation had become so dire.

I have faith though, even if it's hard. I rode with DRG through all the BS from 2.x til now. I will say the current SB DRG is probably the worst DRG has been (worse than Impulse Drive and Heavy Thrust requiring a positional to function back in 2.x) but we just gotta ride this one out too.

---

I know I'm in the minority, but I miss those days