Lore Book Revelations

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Originally Posted by Quor

We know from Alexander that stable time loops are a thing. We also know from Alexander that the WoL will make a decision at some point in the future that Alex could not see beyond, but he knows that this decision is an important one, determining the fate of our world (and possibly more for all we know). What if, and this is a pretty big outlandish if, the entirety of what we know is a stable time loop? What if this sequence of H and Z breaking apart then engaging in a rejoining has happened before, and up to the point we're at now, things have just repeated?

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While that is an interesting proposition, it wouldn't quite be the same. History repeating is a likely thing, but Alexander's situation is a bit different. The events surrounding Alexander are one big causal loop - they've already happened, so nothing we do can change a single thing in regards to the events surrounding Alexander.

On the other hand, the Ascians do seem to be putting effort into their actions. If the events surrounding Hydaelyn, Zodiark, and Rejoinings were a causal loop, they wouldn't need to bother (or at least not need to worry) - things would be guaranteed to play out in a certain sequence because they've already done so.

That's not to say a cycle similar to a merging and splitting of Light and Dark hasn't happened in the distant past or future, but it would be a case of Eternal Recurrence rather than a Causality Loop.

An easier way to explain it would be to use another game as an example.

FFXIV: Alexander's events are one big causal loop. Everything that we do, all the battles we fight, have already been won, because if that were not the case it would create a temporal paradox. Time moves in a circle in this case: Alexander is summoned, sends Mide and Dayan back to the past, and is summoned as a result. Everything has already happened; within the loop we're just actors on a stage, reciting a script that has been played out before, forever.

Dark Souls II: in the context of the story, Drangleic is implied to have been built on the ruins of countless kingdoms that rose and fell before it. This will continue to happen time and again no matter what ending you choose; in the original release you had to take the Throne of Want, and doing so simply makes you the lead of this "production" so to speak (you Link the Fire and burn until the Flame splutters and fades and another Undead comes to replace you, or you take your place as the Dark Lord until another Undead defeats you and one eventually Links the Fire). An additional ending in the updated version has you turn your back on the Throne of Want and deny either of the original endings, but even that makes no difference in the end: an Undead will eventually Link the Fire, causing another iteration of the cycle. While it's not on a cosmic scale, this is an example of eternal recurrence instead of a causal loop - this sequence of events plays out over and over again, but with different actors on a different stage. This cycle goes on until entropy has caught up with the world by the time of III.

TL;DR Alexander is caught in a loop, while a hypothetical merging and splitting of Light and Dark over the eons is just a cycle.

Deviating a bit here, but did the lore touch upon why Alphinaud and Alisaie are so much shorter than other Elezen despite being 17 in ARR?

Do Elezen just have one hell of a growth spurt in their early 20s?

I'm especially confused as we see Honoroit and Saulette working as servants despite using the same models as regular children, and Emanellain (spelling?) is clearly a young man but adult height...

In a lore panel years ago it was said that Elezens live a little bit longer than the other races and that their childhood/ puberty period is longer as a result

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That said, Elezen actually do have a longer lifespan than the other four races. And this also appears in the- when they go from child to puberty to adulthood. So which is why you'll see in the- in 1.0 there was a bunch of Elezen children that appeared in some of the quests and they appear again in 2.0, and they're still children. And you think well it's been five years why are they still children? It's because again that childhood for Elezen can last much longer. And they end up living longer as well. Um, but for the most part it's pretty much just the same as us, but with more... fatality.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Speaking of which. This seems to be a watery twist on the whole "A god emerging from chaos and made creation" concpet permeating msot creation myths. I think this m ight be due to common idea of seeing outer space as an ocean.

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Inb4 Leviathan is the original God, and the sea he is said to have created in his origin myth is the Aetherial Sea.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Deviating a bit here, but did the lore touch upon why Alphinaud and Alisaie are so much shorter than other Elezen despite being 17 in ARR?

Do Elezen just have one hell of a growth spurt in their early 20s?

I'm especially confused as we see Honoroit and Saulette working as servants despite using the same models as regular children, and Emanellain (spelling?) is clearly a young man but adult height...

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Somebody asked if the twins were half Lalafell (absolute waste of a question; no, let's not take this rare chance to actually ask Yoshida something worthwhile, why would we want to do that <.<). Naturally, the answer was "They are Elezen!"

But as for the others: Honoroit is 14, and, if I'm deducing this right, Emmanellain is 26 (four years younger than his brother, who was 25 when the Calamity hit). Ysayle, meanwhile, was 24 when she died, so clearly Elezen hit their adult height sometime between their late teens and early twenties. And speaking of Emmanellain: While Artoirel's biography implies that 25 is considered "young" for an Elezen military commander, I don't see anything indicating Emmanellain himself isn't an adult; indeed, I thought the obvious takeaway from his behaviour is that he's flighty and immature for his age, not that he's actually a young man.

Tales from the Dragonsong War: Vows Unbroken also features a picture of nineteen-year-old Haurchefant who clearly hadn't hit his adult height yet, so Elezen men at least probably don't finish growing until their early twenties.

Edit: Er actually I was wrong Haurchefant was seventeen in Vows Unbroken. drat.

does it mean Alphinaud and Alisaie will be tall as hell? That would suck. I'm used to seeing them like this. It's like seeing adult Porom and Palom in After Years. Doesn't seem right.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Deviating a bit here, but did the lore touch upon why Alphinaud and Alisaie are so much shorter than other Elezen despite being 17 in ARR?

Do Elezen just have one hell of a growth spurt in their early 20s?

I'm especially confused as we see Honoroit and Saulette working as servants despite using the same models as regular children, and Emanellain (spelling?) is clearly a young man but adult height...

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First: The twins are 16, not seventeen.

From Tumblr:

http://66.media.tumblr.com/c06eb5187...bnywo4_250.jpg

To answer your question: Yes, according to the lorebook they do have a big growth spurt around 20.

A good rule of thumb when dealing with the 'physical' age of Elezen is to either take their known age and divide it by .8, or take a 'physical age' and multiply it by 1.2 to find out what age they actually reach that point (in comparison to other races/humans). According to a lore panel, they can live to about 120, compared to 100 for the other races, so they age about 20% slower.

Honoroit is 14, so 14*.8=11.2. His 'physical age' (relative to other races) is actually 11, hence why he has the 'child' model. Emanellain is around 26 by deduction, 26*.8= 20.8. At a 'physical age' of twenty, he's long reached his adult height.

As for the twins, 16*.8=12.8, which I usually round up to thirteen. That's why they still look like 13-year olds despite being sixteen. In 'Elezen years', they actually ARE thirteen!

Assuming they mature at roughly the same 'physical age' as humans, most boys stop growing around age 16 or 17, sometimes later. If we multiply that by 1.2, we can get how old Elezen reach physical maturity. 16*1.2=19.2, 17*1.2=20.4. That's right in the 'around twenty' ballpark described by the lorebook.

Finally, Hraesvelger says Elezen 'lose their youthful vigor' at 'two score and ten', which is 50 years for those who don't know what a 'score' is. 50*.8=40.

...Er, yeah, I did very thorough analysis of Elezen growth and age a while back. ...It was for fan fiction, alright? You have to know these things if you want to write young Elezen characters any older or younger then they are in at the time of FFXIV, because of their slower growth pattern.

As an aside, that picture of Hauchefant in Vows Unbroken is from when he was twelve, not seventeen.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

does it mean Alphinaud and Alisaie will be tall as hell? That would suck. I'm used to seeing them like this. It's like seeing adult Porom and Palom in After Years. Doesn't seem right.

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I doubt that Alphinaud and Alisaie will ever change character models. That would require them to actually set down a firm timeline of events for the MSQ instead of the vague "time is passing" that there is now. They have continuously avoided from saying how much time has passed exactly since ARR began-- likely partially at least because all of the usual lore forum suspects are on the look out for any mention of a timeline besides "many weeks" or "a while".

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

As an aside, that picture of Hauchefant in Vows Unbroken is from when he was twelve, not seventeen.

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Just out of curiosity would you mind giving me the quote on that? My book is still in the mail, but from the bits that I've read Haurchefant "served house Fortemps" for eleven years and I thought I also read his rescuing of Francel is part of what contributed to him earning knighthood. Twenty-eight minus eleven is seventeen so I'd like to know which bit exactly I've got wrong. :)

Edit: nvm found it.

@Naria: I am not completely sure anymore but isnt the picture from the time where he met Francel for the first time? I do believe he was not a knight there and at the beginning Francel says: "Fifteen...sixteen years now" which I kinda take that meeting Haurchefant for the first time was around 15/16 years before that event so he should be around 12. Later on when he protected Francel its already some years later and its there where he became a knight, which is around 16/17 thanks to the information from the lore book.

And I agree with you, I dont believe that they will change the twins models much. They are still some years before hitting the growth spurt and I dont think that FF14 will play over years ingame.

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Originally Posted by Naria

Just out of curiosity would you mind giving me the quote on that? My book is still in the mail, but from the bits that I've read Haurchefant "served house Fortemps" for eleven years and I thought I also read his rescuing of Francel is part of what contributed to him earning knighthood. Twenty-eight minus eleven is seventeen so I'd like to know which bit exactly I've got wrong. :)

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Fifteen...sixteen years now,Francel reflected. A boy of six summers, yet nevertheless old enough to assume his social responsibilities.

A silver-haired boy twice his agewas swinging a wooden sword with reckless abandon, his bare chest glistening with sweat in the moonlight.

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The picture right below the second paragraph quoted essentially illustrates that scene. 6*2=12.

Also, seconding what others have said. The twins are at that point in physical maturity where they can get away with being a 'physical age' of up to 14/15, especially in Alphinaud's case (my own younger brother didn't hit his growth spurt until he was around 15, I was taller then him for the longest time and I'm only 5'3). Combined with the slower growth of Elezen, by my own rough calculations, at least two years, possibly more, would have to be confirmed to pass in-game to justify a model change for the twins to reflect their growth.

I don't see that happening. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Quor

I'm not sure if that's just coincidence or not, given that each Calamity was supposedly a sign of a shard rejoining

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Fishing this completely out-of-context because it brings up a pretty critical question - does a Calamity at the Source cause a Shard to Rejoin or does a Shard Rejoining cause a Calamity at the Source? How deeply are we intertwined?

(My guess, purely from the "To Be Continued" feeling of the Minifilia and WoD plot-threads, is that it's going to turn out to be something of a 50/50 deal and that the crisis needs to resolved successfully in both Source and Shard to avoid the Calamity/Rejoining from happening.)

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

The picture right below the second paragraph quoted essentially illustrates that scene. 6*2=12.

Also, seconding what others have said. The twins are at that point in physical maturity where they can get away with being a 'physical age' of up to 14/15, especially in Alphinaud's case (my own younger brother didn't hit his growth spurt until he was around 15, I was taller then him for the longest time and I'm only 5'3). Combined with the slower growth of Elezen, by my own rough calculations, at least two years, possibly more, would have to be confirmed to pass in-game to justify a model change for the twins to reflect their growth.

I don't see that happening. Ever.

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I've been calculating Elezen aging at 75% the rate of humans (I was wondering the maximum amount of years in-game I could reasonably suspend disbelief that the twins had not aged) so it is nice to see that others are coming up with similar numbers. I was actually surprised when Alphinaud and Alisaise were announced for ARR because by having two prepubescent main characters SE was setting an upper limit to the amount of time you can reasonably suspend disbelief has passed. I was especially surprised since the Circle of Knowing having not visibly aged in fifteen years in 1.0 was causing all sorts of speculation. It is not too strange right now, but if the game gets to 7.0 is will seem strange that the twins haven't aged at all.

picked up my copy earlier today. I wasn't too surprised to read that there were already multiple waves of Hyur immigration during the 5th Astral era, but I honestly didn't expect them to also have actually founded Amdapor. Well, that defenitely answers the question of "why are the corpses we fight in Amdapor city HM/Mhach Hyur sized?"
It also debunks the theory some had that Diablos was summoned by the Amdapori themselves in some desperate act of fight fire with fire

My Encyclopedia just arrived. I'll try to give it a full read over the weekend. It's so nice. I'm afraid to scratch the cover.

Considering Aliasie just got her redesign, I doubt that said growth spurt will happen soon, but 16-18 years old seems reasonable for their ages at this point.

Thank you for the thorough answers!


I think for said growth to occur without messing with us, a substantial time skip, or an expansion with the twins being absent, would be required.

(Total aside, but I'm genuinely worried about Alphi.... If Aliasie is with us now, and Alphi has grown so much... What will they do to push him aside? I can't deal with losing my companioms much more!)

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

(Total aside, but I'm genuinely worried about Alphi.... If Aliasie is with us now, and Alphi has grown so much... What will they do to push him aside? I can't deal with losing my companioms much more!)

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I feel like he's going to skip the Stormblood action and act as the (unofficial) Scion leader for a bit, hanging around in the Rising Stones in Minfilia's place, and Alisae will be the one traveling with us.

yea, i'm just trying to figure out the twins as adults. i guess that's what all parents feel when they compare their kids' kid pictures and adult pictures

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Fishing this completely out-of-context because it brings up a pretty critical question - does a Calamity at the Source cause a Shard to Rejoin or does a Shard Rejoining cause a Calamity at the Source? How deeply are we intertwined?

(My guess, purely from the "To Be Continued" feeling of the Minifilia and WoD plot-threads, is that it's going to turn out to be something of a 50/50 deal and that the crisis needs to resolved successfully in both Source and Shard to avoid the Calamity/Rejoining from happening.)

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Well, everything we know points towards the former - a Calamity causes a Rejoining with one of the shards, basically stressing the Source to the point where it *has* to re-absorb one of its errant reflections. If enough Shards are Rejoined, Zodiark can be re-summoned, hence why Ascians are always trying to bring about Calamities. Otherwise, the Shards remain separated, so there's no vice-versa.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I feel like he's going to skip the Stormblood action and act as the (unofficial) Scion leader for a bit, hanging around in the Rising Stones in Minfilia's place, and Alisae will be the one traveling with us.

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I'd be totally fine with that.

Does the lore book cover the Heart of Sabik at all? All that's mentioned of it in the game is that its older than Allag

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I think Balipu worded it awkwardly, but his point was correct. Unukulhai's story told of how his world was consumed by darkness and lost due to great warriors using primal-infused auracite that slowly corrupted them. Since we know all the other lost reflection worlds were Rejoined via calamity it was logical deduction that Unukulhai's world had to have been the 13th as it was the only one to have been lost due to a Flood of Darkness as he described.

Essentially Unukulhai came from a world that was outright lost instead of Rejoined and 3.4 revealed that only one world had thus far been lost in such a way: the 13th. Thus the 13th had to be Unukulhai's world.

There was speculation immediately following 3.4 that all the ruling tier voidsent were the 13th's WoLs that Unukulhai spoke of. The lorebook has at least confirmed one such to be true. I wonder if the Cloud of Darkness and Scathach may be corrupted warriors as well.

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Warriors of Void?

what,if anything, interesting does the Lore Book say about Dark Knights?

A few interesting bits about the Dark Knight (not sure how many of these are learned in the DRK quests):

The LB3 is called Dark Force, and is created by the DRK infusing a "vast well of aether with their own inner darkness" they create arcane barriers of "impregnable midnight." It's technically a benevolent technique, but is noted as visually unsettling for some.

The Chaos Armor has been passed down through generations, forged of Ishgardian Steel, and the once well-polished iron has been dulled by years of blood.

Dainslaif was crafted during the time of peace between the Dragons and man, originally made for monster slaying, being commissioned by a knight at the time.

Fray of the Onyx Shade was an orphan of the Brume. He helped save Rielle (the Au Ra with Sidurgu of the Obsidian Heart) from an "unjust fate" but was forced into trial by combat as a result, and it was there that he lost his life. He was 25 at the time.

The Darkness is described as coming from the "fear and wrath" from the DRK's soul, and is a "shadowy flame that feeds greedily" on the aether of the body. If one loses control of that, they will be consumed in a "backlash of entropic energies."

And finally, and perhaps most interesting to me, is that it was not until several centuries had passed that the Dark Knight actually learned how to wield the Darkness as a weapon to augment their own techniques...before that, it was simply swordplay and naught else.

There's a bit more, but personally I think those are the most interesting elements.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

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none of this stuff, except for Fray being involved with Rielle and Sidurgu before his death were mentioned in the DRK questline.

mind sharing some of the cool MCH stuff, if you don't mind? sorry for being greedy, I don't have the lorebook, and I'm trying to decide between MCH and DRK as my character's primary job. leaning MCH at the moment.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I feel like he's going to skip the Stormblood action and act as the (unofficial) Scion leader for a bit, hanging around in the Rising Stones in Minfilia's place, and Alisae will be the one traveling with us.

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I certainly hope so. I really don't want to see another precious ally die or "go away" after all we've been through. (I'm tryimg to mentally prepare for it, since Yoshi-P warned shit is getting dark @.@)

Alisaie's even sassier self acting as our new sidekick would be a treat, though.

Is there anything on the Thorne Dynasty?

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I certainly hope so. I really don't want to see another precious ally die or "go away" after all we've been through. (I'm tryimg to mentally prepare for it, since Yoshi-P warned shit is getting dark @.@)

Alisaie's even sassier self acting as our new sidekick would be a treat, though.

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I know saying this will bite me in the ass but I am totally fine with allies dying as long as they really are dying and not just having a fake death like Nanamo, Y'shtola, Thancred, Yda, Papalymo and Estinien.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

I know saying this will bite me in the ass but I am totally fine with allies dying as long as they really are dying and not just having a fake death like Nanamo, Y'shtola, Thancred, Yda, Papalymo and Estinien.

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Really though, only one of those character had a fake death. Everybody but Nanamo was left highly ambiguous.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

I know saying this will bite me in the ass but I am totally fine with allies dying as long as they really are dying and not just having a fake death like Nanamo, Y'shtola, Thancred, Yda, Papalymo and Estinien.

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You do realize what a terrible thing that would be to say about living human beings, right? They may be video game characters, but we're supposed to care about our allies, dammit.

As far as I'm concerned a "fake" death just means that things weren't as bad as they seemed, which happens a lot in reality, too. Something like the Apollo 13 accident could never happen in fiction, because it would be too good an opportunity for someone to make the ultimate sacrifice for the cause.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

They may be video game characters, but we're supposed to care about our allies, dammit.

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The game isn't doing a very good job at making us - or at least some of us - care I'm afraid. That's in no small part due to them being associated with hollow dialogue, stealing our show in combat prowess against the presentation of the rest of the game and menial fetch quests that do nothing but bar our progress to things we would rather do. As player, I was "glad" when Ul'dah happened and merely cynically remarked:"That's too good to be true, they'll come back somehow. Can I get to Ishgard now?"

There's a very strong disconnect between my character and my out of character self as far as feelings are concerned. I'm not happy when I see Alphinaud, I groan because my first association is: Mandatory fetch quest. And the natural reaction is:"Please just go away and never come back.", rather than the:"I'm so happy to see you!" My character seems to do.

I dare say Minfilia was the most hated NPC in ARR, just because anything involving Minfilia also involved fetch quests and having to travel 3x more than necessary for menial tasks

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I dare say Minfilia was the most hated NPC in ARR, just because anything involving Minfilia also involved fetch quests and having to travel 3x more than necessary for menial tasks

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To be fair, (SPOILER)

they DID make her a sacrifice so that could count as a "death" that probably won't get reversed in any way.

(SPOILER)

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Originally Posted by Fenral

You do realize what a terrible thing that would be to say about living human beings, right? They may be video game characters, but we're supposed to care about our allies, dammit.

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Terrible or not, the fake death cliffhanger is the cheapest plot device ever. I mean I was sure some would survive Ul'dah. As the game mascot Y'shtola pretty much has immunity, but as of 3.4 even Minfilia is alive. Nanamo's death was so important that it made it into the intro cinematic, yet it was outdone halfway into the HW main scenario. I do care about some of my allies. I just think the ending of 2.55 was freakin terrible. Especially now that it turns out it didn't ammount to anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

To be fair, they DID make her a sacrifice so that could count as a "death" that probably won't get reversed in any way.

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Errr how far are you into the Main Scenario?

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

To be fair, they DID make her a sacrifice so that could count as a "death" that probably won't get reversed in any way.

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Talk to F'lhaminn. Minfilia will be back for the finale, at the very least. She's just been put on a bus for now because of her overwhelming unpopularity.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

I just think the ending of 2.55 was freakin terrible. Especially now that it turns out it didn't ammount to anything at all.

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And people give me s[kupo]t for still being down on the ending to the Crystal Tower story. However you feel about the means used to get there, at least it can be agreed that "The Parting Glass" canonically happened and has had an ongoing effect. And not all the character development was terrible, either.

I hope to god that if they decide to kill of another beloved character..that this doesn't happen because our own character acts "stupid". Thats probably still the reason why I cant get over a certain someones death while being able to be okay with the death of my other two favorites..

Oh and about the lore book. I do love the believe in the twelfth and the 7 heavens/hells way more than the theory about the lifestream. I am just not a fan of rebirth and like the thought about a nice afterlife way more. But thats just me. (I found this piece of information in the book quite interesting even though a lot of the lore reminds me of our own lore ;))

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I hope to god that if they decide to kill of another beloved character..that this doesn't happen because our own character acts "stupid". Thats probably still the reason why I cant get over a certain someones death while being able to be okay with the death of my other two favorites..

Oh and about the lore book. I do love the believe in the twelfth and the 7 heavens/hells way more than the theory about the lifestream. I am just not a fan of rebirth and like the thought about a nice afterlife way more. But thats just me. (I found this piece of information in the book quite interesting even though a lot of the lore reminds me of our own lore ;))

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It is a fantasy based on reality.

I think we're going a little off-topic here, maybe move the discussion about how they should do the 4.0 story to its own thread?

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Is there anything on the Thorne Dynasty?

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(From the Time-Line)

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ca. 1181 - Ul'dahn thaumaturges develop the Trader's Spurn, an alchemical concoction with the power to reanimate the dead. With this devastating weapon, they lay waste to Sil'dih.

ca. 1190 - After their triumph over Sil'dih, emissaries from a thriving Ul'dah board Lominsan-built ships and set sail for the Near East to establish trade.
- With the expansion of maritime trade, the number of Ul'dahn merchants taking the land-based eastern routes begins to decline, and Ala Mhigo struggles to sustain itself on the meager tolls.

ca. 1224 - Sasagan III is imprisoned and ousted as ruler of Ul'dah in a political coup. Baldric Thorne is crowned sultan, marking the beginning of the Thorne dynasty.

ca. 1267 - Baldric Thorne's only daughter Edvya disappears from the palace. Fearing the worst, the sultan orders a city-wide search for the princess. The Sultansworn eventually discover Edvya with the assistance of a young girl of low birth. The incident would later be remembered as the national holiday, "Little Lady's Day".

ca. 1270 - Ul'dah relocates its capital atop of the ruins of fallen Sil'dih.

ca. 1272 - The enslaved hecatoncheire giants of Copperbell Mines revolt against their masters when the enchantments on their helms wear off, and the miners force a cave-in of the lowest depths to seal the giants within. The mine is shuttered under the pretense that its veins have run barren.

ca. 1353 - Waves of undead pour forth from the Sil'dihn waterways beneath the city.
- Responding to a series of zombie attacks across Thanalan, the sultanate approaches its theretofore enemy, the Amalj'aa, with a proposal to join forces against the common undead foe. The Amalj'aa - eager to cleanse their sacred land of the foul corpses - accept the offer, and Zahar'ak is established as a joint garrison.
- Ala Mhigan mercenaries are contracted by Ul'dah in the sultanate's efforts to purge the city of the undead droves.

ca. 1355 - With the aid of the Ala Mhigan mercenaries, the sultanate at long last is successful in ridding the city of the undead.
- The Royal House of Thorne abdicates the throne and restores sovereignty to the House of Ul, marking the ascension of the second Ul Dynasty.

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(From the entry on Ul'dah)

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A New Dynasty

Having brought an end to Ul'dah's troubles, Sasagan Ul Sisigan put the fell powder under close guard, and kept the truth of Sil'dih's end from the masses. The silence held for forty years, until Baldurf Thorne, a Hyuran of noble blood, learned the truth, and charged Sasagan for his crime. Startled, the aging ruler flew into a rage, and demanded the offender's head. However, no one lifted a finger, let alone a weapon, for Baldurf was known as a righteous man. Sasagan was imprisoned, and spent the rest of his days in the Marasaja Pit.

Those around Baldurf then asked him to serve as sultan. Though refusing at first, he eventually acquiesced on the condition that he would be a steward, ruling until the city-state was stable. The new sultan never made knowledge of the powder public, for fear that it would fall into the wrong hands. Instead, he established the Arbiters of Truth, a group devoted to preserving the the truth of Sil'dih's downfall for the future.

The Thorne Dynasty ruled for two hundred summers thereafter, and produced many ardent reformers. In 1270, one moved Ul'dah to almost directly above where her sister city-state had once stood. When undead rose from the ancient sprawling sewers of Sil'dih in 1353, another enlisted the aid of the Amalj'aa -- Ul'dah's fierce enemies. Given the beastmen's belief that Thanalan is sacred, they eagerly joined with the Ul'dahns to exterminate the impure presence. With this done, the Thorne heirs felt their sworn duty had come to an end, and returned rule to the Ul Dynasty.

The Syndicate

The Amalj'aa threat notwithstanding, Ul'dah gained control of Thanalan through the razing of neighboring Sil'dih. It was then that the city-state began to truly establish itself as a mercantile power, hiring sailors and purchasing Lominsan-wrought ships from as early as 1190. Soon, it had opened trade with Radz-at-Han and the rest of the Near East. Behind this was the guiding hand of the Thorne Dynasty, who had restored the Ul'dahn markets and overland trade routes after moving the city. Inheriting their vision, the second Ul Dynasty worked to better commerce, and under their rule the nation flourished.

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It's interesting how the fictional author seems very favorable towards the Thorne Dynasty; it's a much more positive depiction of Baldric and the Arbiters than we got through Little Lady's Day and the Hildebrand questline. The writer even, rather sneakily, phrases things in a way to make it sound as if the Thornes were entirely behind Ul'Dah's rise as a trading super-power even though the sea trade began thirty-five years before under the Ul.

Where was the original Ul'dah located? I can't imagine they literally moved the entire city, brick for brick.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Where was the original Ul'dah located? I can't imagine they literally moved the entire city, brick for brick.

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I never thought about this until now, but you're right. Where was the original Ul'dah located? We see ruins of Sild'hih, Belah'dia and even Allagan (or older) ruins in Sagolli, yet no mentions of where Ul'dah was originally located.

Although, it would not surprise me at all if the Ul'dahns demolished their building and used the stone to built up the new Ul'dahan (to save money) and whatever remained of original Ul'dah swallowed up by the sands after 400 years of neglect.