Yoshi-P on Character Growth

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Interesting analysis of FFXI.

However, the reaction to this analysis should be exactly the opposite of what Yoshi-P does. FFXI players were not furious because everything changed. They were furious because everything they did was made irrelevant.
After spending a lot of time to earn the most powerful lvl75 weapon, you're pissed because a new player can buy a lvl85 weapon better than yours.

That's exactly what happens in FFXIV for every content...

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It seems more likely that they were upset about the change. Reaching top level in XI takes forever... Or at least it did, so all the effort they put into reaching the top level was made worthless.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

The end result is that the i250 crafting gear is likely going to have plenty of value, especially for hardcore raiders, who are going to want to get the sets as soon as possible without fighting against the RNG of Wondrous Tails.

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Honestly, I'm just irritated that they've taken an already niche market, and pretty much taken away from it... I can make the best i220 gear... That isn't saying much, i220 was very quickly irrelevant, pretty much only to hardcore raiders at the start of 3.2, but I could make the best version of that niche level... Prototype Midan gear was inferior... Now? Not the case with i250... Prototype Creator gear is still inferior, but I'm no longer making the best i250 gear... If I put some HQ i250 up for sale, and someone gets lucky and puts the same gear up off Wondrous Tails... Why would anyone buy my piece over the one with 100% success on penta melds?

I don't even have a reason to make i250 though... The market will be the same as it always has been, albeit with the rare Wondrous Tails sale taking a buyer away... Why do I care though? I've already got more Gil than I know what to do with... Savage is the only place item level and Gil seem to matter, and I just have zero interest in that... I can get i270 earlier than everyone else? Yeah, I don't care... I'm struggling to see a point in anything beyond i220 at the moment, and the game is very quickly going to be forcing i260 on me the same way it forced i230 on me... I have issues with Aquapolis and Palace of the Dead, but aside from PvP, they're two of the more enjoyable additions I can think of recently... All three of those have one thing in common though; Item level is irrelevant for them... Palace of the Dead out right omits item levels, while Aquapolis and PvP have fairly low item level caps... Heck, dungeons are starting to get item level caps...

It's a shame Diadem was a complete and utter flop... It could perhaps have justified higher item levels... The rewards just completely suck though, get a higher item level so I can farm i235 gear easily? Or maybe I want the minions and mount... Sigh, I really don't know what Yoshida was thinking with Diadem... I just don't think this development team has any idea how to do sandbox content... It's very apparent in PvP, where we have game modes like Secure and Seize, that people miss and want to do again, but the developers have taken a theme park approach to things, and Shatter has decommissioned the previous rides...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It seems more likely that they were upset about the change. Reaching top level in XI takes forever... Or at least it did, so all the effort they put into reaching the top level was made worthless.

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You said "more likely" but then point out exactly what I said...pick a side :p

Magian Trials were the change. The fact that you could obtain better weapon than relic was the problem. Once the relic received their Magian Trials, everyone was happy.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

FFXI players were not furious because everything changed. They were furious because everything they did was made irrelevant.

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These are, for the purposes of discussion related to FFXIV, functionally the same thing. The reason why players would be angry if they changed the core model in FFXIV would be different than they were in FFXI, but the root cause—that the game's core model was now drastically different—would be the same.

I can assure you that there are players who are happy with the current model, who like having regular updates with new gear to chase, and they would probably not be happy with spending a year at the same item level (which is largely what requests to make gear last longer like FFXI would mean), just as one example of how making the game more like XI could cause problems.

Moving to a model where gear had significantly lower obsolescence would necessitate either more grindy content, or more content that was dubious in value, with incentives to run new content being there only for the players most dedicated to optimization (those players are a relatively small sample of the population, for what it's worth).

Some players would be okay with that and enjoy it, but XIV's new content is already seen both as too grindy and frequently not rewarding enough, so it would be difficult to not make that worse. When you throw in the fact that there is resistance to the idea of more avenues for players to get max-level gear, the team has to walk a very delicate tightrope here.

Which, again, underscores the need for caution.

As I've said before, I do think there is room for expansion within the game's current model (I've long been an advocate for more max-level gearsets and can think of several ways the team could achieve that even just using the content we have available to us now), and I even think it would be possible to have slightly longer raid tiers (if they can manage to get a bigger team, at any rate).

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Yeah, I don't care... I'm struggling to see a point in anything beyond i220 at the moment, and the game is very quickly going to be forcing i260 on me the same way it forced i230 on me...

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I don't mean this flippantly, but rather sincerely: you probably don't really enjoy vertical progression games! And that's actually perfectly okay. There are other games on the market that are more sandbox and/or horizontally oriented. Heck, even FFXI gets content updates just about as often as XIV does and definitely has more long-lasting appeal for its gear and the like.

But I don't really think it's ever likely that FFXIV is going to differ significantly from its present structure—the most I can envision is moving from 6 month raid tiers to 12 month ones (and that would be pretty hard to pull off while also maintaining regular, worthwhile content updates). Even that is unlikely, I think, and at most see 9 month tiers as theoretically possible.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

These are, for the purposes of discussion related to FFXIV, functionally the same thing.

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That's the catch, it's not.
You can't justify "changing is bad" because one change was bad.

This is the same twisted answer that Yoshi-P did recently. When asked if we can have something different, he basically replied "If we give you less, you'll be pissed, so this proves our formula is good"
What ? Of course we'll be pissed if you give us less...what kind of proof is it ?!

The worst part is that he used the "if we give you one dungeon instead of two"...conveniently forgetting that before HW, every patch gave us three. And you can look at the previous patch notes, they were as big as current patches...much bigger, in fact, if you look at 2.1.

I think the most important thing in a game is how fun the gameplay is. Not progression, not gear, not graphics, not story. But whether or not it is actually entertaining to do the tasks. There are games that rely almost entirely on gameplay, and have mediocre or simply bad everything else, i.e. many shooters for the PC. I've grinded countless hours in games with fun gameplay, but you can't get me to repeat ff14 dungeons once I've gotten the gear or xp I needed out of them.

how hard would it be to have tomegear set some ilevels down, make relic armor and gear which would be the max ilevel when finished, and having raid gear also at that ilevel or higher? I mean you come back from 6 months cause you cant be bothered since world first midas or some crap, you get you some tome gear and automatically back in the game, and good enough. Meanwhile this guy here has been playing the whole time, i think itd be ok for them to let those who are on faithfully get a little further ahead, whether its above the current lowest tomegear i level or something. Raid gear too, should be higher as its an effort-based earning. I digress, this is the model for the next 10 (Two years tops, then free to play) we'll most likely get.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can't justify "changing is bad" because one change was bad.

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That's not what I'm saying at all, actually. It's not that change is in and of itself bad, it's that large scale changes can have very serious consequences. As another example, from FFXIV itself, look at how poorly the large shift in raid difficulty for Gordias worked out in the end, how harmful it was to the game's community. SE's history with MMOs and indeed, the history in XIV itself, gives the team a lot of reason to favor caution over taking big risks. This does mean that change tends to be incremental and gradual, which I understand can frustrate some folks. Personally, after years of knee-jerk changes in WoW, I like that the team's cautious, though.

As for the answer about less, you're missing something key about why we have 2 dungeons now instead of 3. We have 2 now so that the team can try to introduce other types of content—that is, expand the game in the way so many people want. If we still had 3 dungeons, we wouldn't have Diadem or Deep Dungeon or a second raid difficulty, and while they haven't been perfect (and Diadem far from it), new content types are always going to carry some risk of failure.

If you want 3 dungeons back (and I submit that most of us probably do), we'd have to give up the potential for the team to innovate and introduce other types of content. So long as the team is the size it is, that is the reality of the developer's capabilities at this time.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

If you want 3 dungeons back (and I submit that most of us probably do), we'd have to give up the potential for the team to innovate and introduce other types of content. So long as the team is the size it is, that is the reality of the developer's capabilities at this time.

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Considering their track record, a return to 3 dungeons would be a good thing.

The fact that people want 3 flavors of corridor tomestone grinding, despite people getting sick of said grinds every 6 months, confuses me.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

The fact that people want 3 flavors of corridor tomestone grinding, despite people getting sick of said grinds every 6 months, confuses me.

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I'm not sure I get it either, despite loving lengthy grinds. Then again, I have been lazy and farming tombstones with lazy tanking alliance raids. XD

The people who want those third dungeons and the people who hate dungeons are obviously not the same people. I don't know why anyone so blindly assumes every comment or complaint is made by the exact same individuals. Besides those who would, clearly haven't spoken out against dungeon content in its entirety and see a difference between a coin toss to whatever dungeon they run that day to a proper roulette. Every little bit helps even if they find it miserable, and it offers more progress than whatever prototype content they may decide to toss into the patch.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Horizontal progression is the illusion of choice people really need to get off the FFXI nostalgia bandwagon.

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There is no "illusion" and how do you assume I was referring to FFXI? wat? I never mentioned that in my post lol. I literally got to choose which gear I wanted...how is there an illusion? As opposed to forcing one piece of gear on me, I got to choose from endless pieces (Kinda like how diadem drops were) until I felt like I found a BiS with relevant stats. Stuff like...well, an example in this game would be "Contagion duration +5 sec, Enmity -4, etc"

I was more so referring to other games I have played like Tera, or Aion where you can run dungeons multiple times and get really amazing stats on gear..or get medicore stats, or sorta good..etc.

As for your news flash...no, I know tons of people who burn through stuff..plenty of people in my own FC did that when HW came out and then quit 2 weeks after. While my BF and I were still working on the story..they were off doing Ravana EX within a week. Most people I knew did that who came back to try the expansion. So what are you talking about? It is not like the patches last that long anyway...do the content a few times and get burnt out within a couple weeks, that is how this game is atm. The whole point of my post was to show how people sub for a month and then unsub..and usually don't come back, and those census reflect that.

If you really want to bring up FFXI, ok. I can say the same thing I said on reddit...in other games I have played like XI, L2 and such sure..I got burnt out on those slightly..but the thing is..myself and ALL of my friends (I was Cesil in FFXI, so I pretty much knew everyone lol) would ALWAYS come back. In this game they _NEVER_ come back, at least in my own experience. They got bored..quit, then realized they weren't really enjoying playing copy/paste formula and never came back. Lot of them went back to XI, WoW and console games..

The rewards in this game are too mediocre, and everything is friggin glamour. Why not take advantage of making so many instanced content and make all the gear relevant and let us choose? I don't get the hate for more options. Narrow minded.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

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Are u sure thats really FFXIV fault though?"that ur friends never come bk"? Maybe they are just burned out from playing MMOS , ive raided pretty long in EQ2 with progress raids , waiting for randomn world bosses to spawn to get a shot for a kill etc etc , then i stoped playing eq2 , then ive tryed all other mmos there was like age of conan , rift , start wars etc etc , and i never got to max lvl on them,simple coz i was jsut bored of the mmo formula to quest and kill randomn shit to lvl up all the time, then i took a long break from mmos :P

until i started to play ffxiv wich is kinda fun for me and a lot of others that dont have much time to play :P

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Originally Posted by Miitan

Considering their track record, a return to 3 dungeons would be a good thing.

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Personally, though I really miss having three dungeons...I'd much rather they expand at this point. Of the three new types of content we've gotten, I only consider one worth disposing of entirely (the normal raid—if only because they don't have the resources to do 3 difficulties, and trying to only do two has led to far too many other issues). I'm a big fan of the Deep Dungeon and it only looks to be getting better, and Diadem actually has the potential to be something great. (In fact, it was something great, but the team—for whatever silly reason—didn't think we would zerg it, and so they nerfed it and essentially ruined the first one). If they've actually learned and managed to create a new Exploratory Mission for 3.5 that's worthwhile, then I'm all for giving up the third dungeon. I didn't do roulettes for 2 or 3 weeks after Deep Dungeon came out just because I didn't need to in order to cap, so if the stuff we get is actually worthwhile, I'm all for only having 2 dungeons.

If dropping normal Alexander were enough to get the third dungeon back (it's not), I'd give that up in a heartbeat, though.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

If dropping normal Alexander were enough to get the third dungeon back (it's not), I'd give that up in a heartbeat, though.

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What I'd consider even better is the resources for merely making a normal version for the raids be spent further fleshing out the outlying content. It may create a greater divide between the casual player and the mid/hard-core camps, but when you think about it both sides could then have equally fulfilling content. So if even to just provide more time or heads for planning and execution. That, I feel, would benefit the game greatly.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

The people who want those third dungeons and the people who hate dungeons are obviously not the same people. I don't know why anyone so blindly assumes every comment or complaint is made by the exact same individuals. Besides those who would, clearly haven't spoken out against dungeon content in its entirety and see a difference between a coin toss to whatever dungeon they run that day to a proper roulette. Every little bit helps even if they find it miserable, and it offers more progress than whatever prototype content they may decide to toss into the patch.

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Then can you or anyone else explain to me how 3 dungeons in a roulette magically makes things better other than "more variety in a roulette"? I really want to know.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Then can you or anyone else explain to me how 3 dungeons in a roulette magically makes things better other than "more variety in a roulette"? I really want to know.

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I'm pretty sure more variety is essentially the entire reason people want it. There's a certain...frustration with getting the same dungeon frequently when you're in a roulette, and having three dungeons alleviates that somewhat.

I've never really heard anyone pose a desire for them outside of that want for more variety.

I'm not "sick of tomestone grinding" though. I'd imagine most people who enjoy dungeons and want to see a return to three per patch probably aren't, either.

People forget that crystal tower was meant to be from the beginning of the game. 3dungeons was a thing because they had them almost ready. To me dungeons arent content, its a filler for tomestone grind like you could Just spam easy raid or ex primal for weapon -items at the same time obtain tomestone. Problem People seem to miss here is myself and others miss the quality of keeping players not chase them away. I barely been back for a week and people tell me its bad timing? Those who defend the current formula also says its okay for people to be left behind. I read raiding hasnt been the same and he wanna make them easier. What Will happen when good players leave? Not to sound like an Ass, but because of good players many gotten guides and a lot of help. Yoshida needs to keep players like this in game and keep them interested. Just like getting New players is good, but also bad if there is No guidence for them.

Forgot to add that the issue isnt only growth on current players and keep them, this Will also effect People like me. The fact people say the game is fine then tell me to wait for a patch to appear? Something is really missing here.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

If you really want to bring up FFXI, ok. I can say the same thing I said on reddit...in other games I have played like XI, L2 and such sure..I got burnt out on those slightly..but the thing is..myself and ALL of my friends (I was Cesil in FFXI, so I pretty much knew everyone lol) would ALWAYS come back. In this game they _NEVER_ come back, at least in my own experience. They got bored..quit, then realized they weren't really enjoying playing copy/paste formula and never came back. Lot of them went back to XI, WoW and console games..

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Why is it that you must only play one video game? I have enough time to play FFXIV a few hours a day and play other console games. Yoshi P even said if you get tried of doing the content and a patch has been out for awhile play other games and come back when a new patch is out.

But I think FFXIV is the best MMO I have ever played, and its up there in the best video games ever. I like how there is new raids and dungeons every 3 months. I almost never run out of stuff to do in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by HungryHippo

Forgot to add that the issue isnt only growth on current players and keep them, this Will also effect People like me. The fact people say the game is fine then tell me to wait for a patch to appear? Something is really missing here.

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I couldn't agree more. I can totally understand Yoshi's point of view regarding the current trend of mmorpg nowadays but telling people to unsub during patches doesn't make any sense to me. I reached a point where i can even accept the current system as it is, adding different kind of gear sets would just lead to another thread "inventory crisis". Maybe unlock another materia slot on gear with a special materia that can be melded like "add fire damage" or "Slashing damage +". All i want is being entertained until the next patch. It's actually good to see people voice their opinion here because it shows one thing to me: they are all concerned about the future of this game. If i have to rent the game to play with my friends once in a while between patches i'd rather not play at all.

He's not telling people to unsub. He's saying that if people do that and then come back, that's OK with him -- the game won't penalize you for that.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

He's not telling people to unsub. He's saying that if people do that and then come back, that's OK with him -- the game won't penalize you for that.

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Maybe, but what if people just give up and don't even come back.

Just as I expected to hear tbh.

I'll never see XIV as 'my game' like I did XI before the level cap increase after 75 came along. Something about the approach to content made XI seem more like a world I could get lost in. XIV is more of a game to me - a fun one - but never coming close to replacing XI.

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Originally Posted by RethDaron

Just as I expected to hear tbh.

I'll never see XIV as 'my game' like I did XI before the level cap increase after 75 came along. Something about the approach to content made XI seem more like a world I could get lost in. XIV is more of a game to me - a fun one - but never coming close to replacing XI.

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If you like FFXI its pretty much the same as it was at the 75 cap. Only the cap now is 119. They said something about not making gear above 119. You can still play it if you liked it. I played FFXI for 11 years but I stopped playing cause I play FFXIV now and I like it a lot more then FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

If you like FFXI its pretty much the same as it was at the 75 cap.

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I don't think so....Now the only people you party with are trusts and all the fun has gone long ago.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

If you want 3 dungeons back (and I submit that most of us probably do), we'd have to give up the potential for the team to innovate and introduce other types of content. So long as the team is the size it is, that is the reality of the developer's capabilities at this time.

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Look at what they gave us in 2.1...
A new primal, 4 EX primals, Crystal Tower (with the brand new alliance system), Wolve's Den (with a whole lot of new skills), Housing, Hildibrand, lots of QoL/HUD ajustements, job adjustments (with a new real WAR), Treasure Hunts, the party finder system, the join-in-progress system, the commendation system (and vote kick), the aesthetician,Beast tribe quests, lots of new recipes...and 3 dungeons

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Originally Posted by Nalfein

I don't think so....Now the only people you party with are trusts and all the fun has gone long ago.

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To each is own...I've suffered to progress in the old days just because of the horrendous drop rate and really slow pace...now, for each free login period, I log back with a new character and it's much more fun to progress. I finally explore the game to gain levels instead of staying at the exact same spot for hours waiting for people

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Look at what they gave us in 2.1...

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Not to defend them and I agree with you, but the game Added a lot of things because they was ready almost. They also Added things that was supose to be in game before launch but never happened, like CT.
However when an expansion comes its supose to EXPAND on top of what we have not only tweak here and there and add New lvl. People will expect more after New one, since so far too far many people complained, which is totally understandable. But like I Said, Yoshida doesnt look in future and how the game should grow same time its supose to get people to stay and Get New players who Will stay.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

He's not telling people to unsub. He's saying that if people do that and then come back, that's OK with him -- the game won't penalize you for that.

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Yeah, because people who takes breaks after a month into the patch and waits for the next one still pays their subscription the other 2 months they are not playing...

Are you really trying to compare 2.1, the game's first every major patch, to 3.4, a patch that's near the middle of an expansion? Of course the first one will bring in major changes and systems...but even then, 3.4 does a lot of that too.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Look at what they gave us in 2.1...
A new primal

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Sophia is coming. May I also add that the Eikons are entirely separate from the main story in Heavensward so there's additional work created in terms of plot.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

4 EX primals

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4? I believe it was 3; Ifrit, Garuda and Titan, with Ifrit being almost rehashed from 1.X and Garuda's and Titan's already developed as well in that timespan. Moogles came in 2.2. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I may be forgetting something.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Crystal Tower (with the brand new alliance system)

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And 3.4 is getting Alexander, The Creator.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Wolve's Den (with a whole lot of new skills)

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3.4 is getting duels as well as a spectator system.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Housing

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Apartments are coming.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hildibrand

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There's going to be more Hildibrand quests coming as well.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

lots of QoL/HUD ajustements

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One thing from 3.4 trumps anything QoL changes 2.1 made. Right Click > Report. There's still a lot more, including cooldown reset and healer LB3. Don't forget the W cross hotbar coming as well.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

job adjustments (with a new real WAR)

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Astrologian is getting quite the buff, not to mention a slew of other skills aimed at PvP and general balance.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Treasure Hunts

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Deep dungeon is getting 150 extra floors.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

the party finder system, the join-in-progress system, the commendation system (and vote kick)

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All expected system updates for a game's first major patch, and not really content as it is a QoL improvement.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

the aesthetician

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New haircuts are being released. And the implementation of Jandelaine is nothing spectacular when it's essentially just a watered down character creator that can be accessed in-game.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Beast tribe quests

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No beast tribe introduced this patch.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

lots of new recipes

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But as many as 3.4 is getting? I think not.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

...and 3 dungeons

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3.4 is only getting 2 dungeons....while also getting

• Updated Scholasticate quests
• Grand Company promotions
• Squadrons
• Golden Saucer adjustments and updates
• Wondrous Tails

Yea, I'm really feeling the loss of the one dungeon's worth of content from the game now.

Well, but nothing is ever good enough when you're a hater, we must understand that. It's some sort of a lifestyle.

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Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

Well, but nothing is ever good enough when you're a hater, we must understand that. It's some sort of a lifestyle.

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Already Said what i feel about People saying this. There is a difference wanting the game to improve than being a hater.
Complains Will happen when People arent satisfied. Why doesnt People remember what he Said about that. Dont forget complaints have made changes in this game and also brought life from 1xx.

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Originally Posted by tjw

Are you really trying to compare 2.1, the game's first every major patch, to 3.4, a patch that's near the middle of an expansion?

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You can compare 2.1 to 3.1, it's the same...and 3.1 came way later after HW

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Originally Posted by tjw

Sophia is coming. May I also add that the Eikons are entirely separate from the main story in Heavensward so there's additional work created in terms of plot.

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Primals EX also had their "story". And Moogle Mog came in 2.1

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Originally Posted by tjw

4? I believe it was 3

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Ifrit, Garuda, Titan and Ultima

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Originally Posted by tjw

And 3.4 is getting Alexander, The Creator.

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Crystal Tower was the first 24-man raid, it needed more tweaks and the whole alliance creation.

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Originally Posted by tjw

3.4 is getting duels as well as a spectator system.

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By just reusing everything that already exists.

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Originally Posted by tjw

Apartments are coming.

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And will reuse the housing/personal room system. Now real new design.

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Originally Posted by tjw

There's going to be more Hildibrand quests coming as well.

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Two...quests :( For the record, during the whole 2.x time, Hilbidrand gave us 3 trials.

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Originally Posted by tjw

One thing from 3.4 trumps anything QoL changes 2.1 made. Right Click > Report.

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Report...vote kick...which one is more useful ? :p

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Originally Posted by tjw

Deep dungeon is getting 150 extra floors.

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Not in 3.4 but 3.45, one and a half month later.

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Originally Posted by tjw

All expected system updates for a game's first major patch, and not really content as it is a QoL improvement.

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Lots of barebone system, upon which new content will be build. So, less design work to do.

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Originally Posted by tjw

No beast tribe introduced this patch.

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None also in the next patch...
[QUOTE=tjw;3864051]
3.4 is only getting 2 dungeons....while also getting

• Updated Scholasticate quests
• Grand Company promotions
• Squadrons
• Golden Saucer adjustments and updates
• Wondrous Tails

i.e no new instance, only reusing that which already exists in the game. But I admit, Wondrous Tail can be an interesting incentive to do older content.

I don't say 3.4 has nothing for it, but I don't feel we're really getting "more" for what we have less. And we also still have the same grinding system over and over. How many different tomestones will they create in the end ?

I would also like to add that some people who claim that everything is perfect with Yoshi P and that its just the typical a few days before patch effect. The next Patch would last players tops 3 weeks. The hardcore playerbase will beat it in 1-2 days while the rest of you might need 3 weeks then you are back to the hamsterwheel effect that you guys claim is so flawless.
Its just sad to see that Yoshi P doesnt have a vision to shape players through content but adapting to everyone spoiling them just because they pay for a subscription.
A large scale of this community is infected by players who have come here from WoW (this beeing their second mmorpg or something).
These are the same players who play a certain way comparing this game too much to WoW and Yoshi P continues to provide content similiar to WoW.
How many times havent you guys heard people say oh this reminds me so much of WoW thats why I'm here?
I will repeat something I've said before. Do you go buy a Street Fighter game because it reminds you so much of a Tekken gameplay?
That should speak for FFXIV aswell. Adapting too much to everything wont make it genuine it will just provide an MMORPG that has what everyone else has instead of sticking to its own flagship.
Borrowing ideas isnt bad but they are not perfected exactly its more a copy paste from what other MMORPGs have done because that works.
No risks taken whatsoever to actually do something good.
Spare me the 1.0 arguements and this isnt FFXI 2.0 either you guys always playing thoese cards never win.
1.0 had features that should have reamined here and FFXI had features that should have been used here instead of using everything else from other MMORPGs.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Then why bring up 2.1 if you're not comparing it to 3.4? Compare 2.4 to 3.4, in which case I think 3.4 is expanding far more upon the game than 2.4 did.

You can be as cynical as you want to be, because in the end everything is re-used assets. Pretty sure the new cutscenes, gear, layouts and systems needed for the new stuff don't matter, because it's all about the new instances.

There won't be pleasing you at all unless they make extreme changes, because even them trying out new things is just "No new instances", therefore it isn't new content. -shrug-

The tomestone system is staying, but the method you get to the tomestones is constantly being updated and expanded upon. It's your choice if all you see is the shiny at the end and not appreciating the process, particularly with the variety available.

There's plenty to criticise (for example, the complete canning of WHM in 3.4's endgame scene), but in my opinion, the various amount of content isn't. I personally feel that the lack of a dungeon (which, btw, wouldn't have done much to expand on the grind) has been put to good use at experimenting with other choices.

And fyi, I find RMT bots more annoying than shitty DPS. I can carry a bad tank or DPS. I can't carry RMT bots.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

You entirely missed my point regarding that. I'm well aware the RP icon is a simple graphic. The point was that if he is attempting to make all demographics of this game he isn't doing it.

Players wanted dungeon crawling, they got it
RPers wanted RP icon, they got it
PvPers wanted dueling, they got it
House keeping players wanted apartments, they got it AND aquariums

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind, at first it was it wouldn't work with how 14 was developed, same excuse as to why something like PotD wouldn't work, but that was proven wrong. Now it's Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it because it takes to long, if he scraped some content that is dead on arrival such as squadrons and the new diadem, he would have ample time to think up a barebones build system, after all PotD is a very barebones dungeon crawler and people are enjoying that.

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And my answer remains the same. You are still comparing apples and oranges. Character builds would essentially necessitate overhauling the entire character infrastructure. First and foremost, this is simply not possible in a patch cycle due to the cost and scope. Second, what does it actually accomplish? Okay, wonderful. We have character skill trees or means of influencing our stats. Within two weeks MrHappy, Xeno, Dervy, Mizzteq and every other guide maker on Youtube will produce videos on what the best allocations are for each of their preferred jobs and everyone will copy it.

This is where the illusion of choice argument comes into play. Horizontal progression looks interesting on the surface but community demands rarely allow for experimentation. Sure, you can take a sub-optimal build. But why? You would be knowingly gimping yourself.

I am not necessarily against the idea. However, far too often do people look to horizontal progression as this wondrous feature that will revolutionize the game and make us care about advancing our characters when it won't. Are their ways you can borrow elements from it? Yes. But strictly horizontal just doesn't work in multiple games that rely on raw numbers.

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Originally Posted by tjw

Then why bring up 2.1 if you're not comparing it to 3.4? Compare 2.4 to 3.4, in which case I think 3.4 is expanding far more upon the game than 2.4 did.

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Really ? You really want to compare 3.4 to 2.4 ? You're serious ?
Ok...2.4 brought us a new primal, the last tier of Bahamut, a trial with Hildibrand, 3 new dungeons, housing subward, indoor cooking, lots of new PvP stuff...and a new job

Not everything is reused assets, but the more you have, the less time it takes to develop content...so, we should have much more things to do.

You still get the tomestones the same way...Duty Roulette over and over...and yes doing the same two expert dungeons each day for 3 months straigth quickly become boring...

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

You entirely missed my point regarding that. I'm well aware the RP icon is a simple graphic. The point was that if he is attempting to make all demographics of this game he isn't doing it.

Players wanted dungeon crawling, they got it
RPers wanted RP icon, they got it
PvPers wanted dueling, they got it
House keeping players wanted apartments, they got it AND aquariums

But people who want to experience character builds are always pushed out of sight out of mind, at first it was it wouldn't work with how 14 was developed, same excuse as to why something like PotD wouldn't work, but that was proven wrong. Now it's Yoshi wouldn't be able to play it because it takes to long, if he scraped some content that is dead on arrival such as squadrons and the new diadem, he would have ample time to think up a barebones build system, after all PotD is a very barebones dungeon crawler and people are enjoying that.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And my answer remains the same. You are still comparing apples and oranges. Character builds would essentially necessitate overhauling the entire character infrastructure. First and foremost, this is simply not possible in a patch cycle due to the cost and scope. Second, what does it actually accomplish? Okay, wonderful. We have character skill trees or means of influencing our stats. Within two weeks MrHappy, Xeno, Dervy, Mizzteq and every other guide maker on Youtube will produce videos on what the best allocations are for each of their preferred jobs and everyone will copy it.

This is where the illusion of choice argument comes into play. Horizontal progression looks interesting on the surface but community demands rarely allow for experimentation. Sure, you can take a sub-optimal build. But why? You would be knowingly gimping yourself.

I am not necessarily against the idea. However, far too often do people look to horizontal progression as this wondrous feature that will revolutionize the game and make us care about advancing our characters when it won't. Are their ways you can borrow elements from it? Yes. But strictly horizontal just doesn't work in multiple games that rely on raw numbers.

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It is only illusion because the game dictates that. If the game wants strong party play and dependence on one another as the core. Any deviation from the set strength of each job takes away from the job it is supposed to depend on. For example if Black Mage could heal or tank close to as good as White Mage or Paladin, then the need for dependency is lessened.

As for gimping yourself, that all depends on the content. If damage as a DPS was not the sole purpose of a DPS and encounters were tuned to be punishing and required you to do things besides damage or an occasional control action. Then the other means of progressing would not be an illusion, but a choice. Bare in mind that this is a group based game and most things are locked behind instances and level caps.

If there was solo/low man open world content or instanced content with encounters that damage alone could not get you past and you would die often, (no squishies)then different builds would be a real choice not some illusion. Here in this game it doesn't fit how it is. It would be an illusion here because of the trinity and the wanting of grouping to be the main source of playing. The experimental type of builds is where classes could shine if everything wasn't tuned to group play.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Really ? You really want to compare 3.4 to 2.4 ? You're serious ?
Ok...2.4 brought us a new primal, the last tier of Bahamut, a trial with Hildibrand, 3 new dungeons, housing subward, indoor cooking, lots of new PvP stuff...and a new job

Not everything is reused assets, but the more you have, the less time it takes to develop content...so, we should have much more things to do.

You still get the tomestones the same way...Duty Roulette over and over...and yes doing the same two expert dungeons each day for 3 months straigth quickly become boring...

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Welcome to gaming as a whole. Very few games rebuild from the ground up-- instead preferring to reuse assets to reduce costs. There isn't a purpose to overhauling housing for apartments when they already have assets that accomplish the exact same thing. Three dungeons stopped so allow development on new content. Alexander and Bahamut are essentially a watch and Hildibrand only returned in Heavensward due to fan demand. His story was never intended for the expansion, thus why it isn't as in-depth anymore.

Of course you do. Even if this system were to change in the future, it certainly wouldn't happen in a patch cycle. Developments of that significance are held off for expansions due to their cost.