So anyone else tired of grinding tomes weekly for gear?

See you all in a few months again when we get the next tomestone.

At 3.0 it felt like a grind with so little to do but now I am usually capped before Saturday and only roulette I run is duty and expert maybe 1-2 a week.

I don't even worry or hyped about caping tomes anymore for me 210 is plenty of gear for the ilvl required atm, I just don't feel theirs a point in gearing up as fast as i've use to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Again, it's not capping tomestones you find fun, it's PvP that you find fun

---

I dont need to think whole "capping" thing because in the end of week i will always be capped(overcapped even)just by playing the damn game so to me its not boring nor its fun it just happens.

To me its not the capping tomes that sucks, even though I've sworn off intentionally capping for good, but that it lacks any real point. Everything that I enjoy doing can be done without the gear; it only makes it easier. While hats nice when its farm time, its not like your really struggling unless your doing Savage which I don't do.

So... went back to just doing what I enjoy and not worrying about the tomes. Been able to actually enjoy the game ever since.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

This just in, company pays attention to profit and in game numbers more than forum complaints. More at 7!

---

If you're not subbed to the game, you can't access the official forums. If you can't access the official forums, you can't give your feedback. If you're not able to give feedback, then SE has no way of knowing specifically what your issues/concerns are.

On the off chance Yoshi-P does read people's feedback, and takes it to heart - those people's complaints are potentially very helpful to seeing the game finally introduce more of the variety they're asking for, which will keep them subscribed and playing. If people stay silent or just "go away", that's helping no one.


Yoshi-P says that they do pay attention to player feedback (though how much value they put in it anymore is questionable). The only way to provide player feedback is to post it on the forums.

The people who just up and leave without a word are the ones they aren't hearing from at all because they just don't care enough - and that is *not* helping them.

It is far more useful for people to complain and to state their concerns because they want to keep playing, than it is for them to stay silent and just leave because they don't care anymore.

People stick around because fundamentally, they *like* the game, and they *want* a reason to keep playing it. They just want to see Yoshi-P do *more* with it, bring in new ideas, expand the variety of content, make that pond a bit wider, if not deeper as well.

People have mentioned FFXI and the content available in it as an example, and they are exactly right. With each Expansion, FFXI brought far more variety in terms of unique systems than XIV has even come close to providing. Looking at Rise of the Zilart - FFXI's first expansion, alone.. that introduced, or built on 8 unique game systems - each with its own objectives, rules, challenges and rewards. It wasn't just several cycles of grinding Tomestones, where the only thing changing is the name and a few new places to grind them.

Maybe Yoshi-P and his team should look to how they designed, developed and implemented content in XI in order to keep that much new variety being introduced from one expansion to the next. The approach they're using now seems to be limiting them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synestra

I dont need to think whole "capping" thing because in the end of week i will always be capped(overcapped even)just by playing the damn game so to me its not boring nor its fun it just happens.

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Indeed, and for me that is the problem. There is no sense of earning.

I am going to make an analogy, but knowing here it will be taken too literally and torn apart -please try to accept the analogy for the meaning I am trying to convey. Imagine there is this gorgeous view of an ocean and mountains and whatever else you find amazing. This view is sooo much better if you hike your way to it through a challenging hike - because the view is great, but it's also like a reward for your efforts. However, what we have now feels more like you just drive to the view, get out of your car, look at it and move on. There is very little sense of satisfaction.

It sucks when you have RNG stuff and you work forever and still don't have your drop, but when you do finally get your drop after farming for so long there is a great sense of satisfaction. Currently, with the tomestone model, I feel like I do more chores and I get my weekly allowance for doing it. Thanks Mom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

See you all in a few months again when we get the next tomestone.

---

Look forward to it.

The system of tomestones is fine. SE just needs to offer more variety in how you obtain it. You can put them in ignored content and so on.

Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Some people like things simplified. If you go to a gear progression similar to FFXI's, people will just get sick of how that system works. When it comes to grinding in an MMO, there isn't a win-win scenario. Like every MMO, its fun until you have to do it over and over again. If that is something you can't handle, it may not be the right genre for you.

I wish there was more mid-tier content to put the ilvl gear to use before new ilvls come out.

Using 14-Version 1 as an example, the beastmen strongholds were endgame content. In Heavensward they are just for extremely low-tier dailies, and the beastmen strongholds in this game are not really strongholds and pale in comparison to the ones in FF11.

At the moment, as a mid-tier player. I cannot commit to raid statics. I am grinding tomestones just for ilvl and glamour. I am not grinding ilvl gear for actual gameplay content.

The tomestones would be fine it weren't the only thing we had to rely, but they are so adamant in locking people out of content that they'd rather release tons of gear dead on arrival with each patch than letting people gear more than one job at a time.

If they made dungeon, primal, crafted and 24 main gear more relevant this wouldn't be such an issue.

I'm mostly burnt out on the whole 450 cap thing so I've just been focusing on getting piles of eso for my Anima and to gear my SCH which in turn leads to capping on lore pretty easily.

So, it's the same routine I'm simply shifting the focus towards another goal over focusing on hitting the cap brickwall.
The lore gear doesn't look that great anyway and since I don't raid it's not exactly eating away at me if I don't cap either. ( ´∀｀) I can see how it's not fun for people who are interested in raiding and all that though; I don't think it'd be an issue to have a higher cap so they could gear up a little quicker...

Players have given tons of helpful suggestions over the years. Force pop NM's in tiers, bring back fraction leves (leves where you pop really tough NM's in tiers with different paths, this was in 1.x) , 8 man dungeons with different paths and such, expanding on diadem making it more about exploring, and so forth. Yet none of these suggestions are ever taken into consideration and its just the same formula over and over again.

Also interesting stats on gear that was supposed to come since 3.0...hmm, still no sign of it.

There is never any replies to these sort of threads from the devs so I am really thinking this is a lost cause and it is going to stay the same. Only glamour and minions and so forth gets replies... :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Again, it's not capping tomestones you find fun, it's PvP that you find fun

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They are both the same thing.

Tomestones = Do what you want and get a currency to get stronger.

If you enjoy doing level 60 content, then you enjoy getting tomestones since they are a direct result of doing level 60 content. If you need tomestones, do something you enjoy. If you are doing something and are not enjoying it just to get tomestones, you're doing something wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kuma_aus

They are both the same thing.

Tomestones = Do what you want and get a currency to get stronger.

If you enjoy doing level 60 content, then you enjoy getting tomestones since they are a direct result of doing level 60 content. If you need tomestones, do something you enjoy. If you are doing something and are not enjoying it just to get tomestones, you're doing something wrong.

---

Or there arent any options that are fun yet for midcore people who dont like pvp enough to do that.
I dont enjoy doing the same dungeons over and over for tomes. Hunts could be enjoyable but they need work. Not interested in savage really.
All in all, tomes may not be as bad if their was more ways to obtain them but id rather see more social fc oriented content. Diadem needs work but was in the right direction.
Only thing i enjoyed before my comp imploded was EX trials probably cause they feel like big game hunting without the hunting i guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kuma_aus

They are both the same thing.

Tomestones = Do what you want and get a currency to get stronger.

If you enjoy doing level 60 content, then you enjoy getting tomestones since they are a direct result of doing level 60 content. If you need tomestones, do something you enjoy. If you are doing something and are not enjoying it just to get tomestones, you're doing something wrong.

---

I think you are failing to understand my concern/issue with tomestones. Have you read my other posts in this thread?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Or there arent any options that are fun yet for midcore people who dont like pvp enough to do that.
I dont enjoy doing the same dungeons over and over for tomes. Hunts could be enjoyable but they need work. Not interested in savage really.
All in all, tomes may not be as bad if their was more ways to obtain them but id rather see more social fc oriented content. Diadem needs work but was in the right direction.
Only thing i enjoyed before my comp imploded was EX trials probably cause they feel like big game hunting without the hunting i guess.

---

If you don't enjoy level 60 content, then you don't need Tomestones. Tomestones are for level 60 content so you can get stonger to do more level 60 content or do other level 60 content you are doing easier. If nothing at level 60 is interesting to you, then why do you even care about Tomestones? You say you enjoy EX trials so do them to cap, if you don't want to keep doing them enough to cap, then just don't cap. People cleared Sephirot EX with 210 gear, you don't need Lore ASAP to do EX trials.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I think you are failing to understand my concern/issue with tomestones. Have you read my other posts in this thread?

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There are almost 300 posts in this thread, I really don't want to read them all. But let me just put it this way.

Saying someone doesn't enjoy capping tomestones, they only enjoy PvP is the same as saying someone doesn't enjoy getting fit, they only enjoy running. Capping tomestones is the direct result of doing PvP just like how getting fit is the direct result of running a lot. Someone might not be doing PvP with the mentality to cap tomestones, but they still get the same end result as someone who does stuff just to cap tomestones. Just how someone might not be running with the mentality to get fit, but they still get the same results as someone who does stuff just so they can get fit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kuma_aus

Saying someone doesn't enjoy capping tomestones, they only enjoy PvP is the same as saying someone doesn't enjoy getting fit, they only enjoy running. Capping tomestones is the direct result of doing PvP just like how getting fit is the direct result of running a lot. Someone might not be doing PvP with the mentality to cap tomestones, but they still get the same end result as someone who does stuff just to cap tomestones. Just how someone might not be running with the mentality to get fit, but they still get the same results as someone who does stuff just so they can get fit.

---

Yeah you are definitely not catching my issue. My issue is the lack of effort, static time constraints, weekly cap, and predictability of tomestones make getting gear dull and not a rewarding experience.

In this sense, I could say do a dungeon / pvp (or whatever content) and get the drop at the end, or I could do it and get tomestones to buy my drop. The first option is a rewarding experience where as the second is not. The same content is done and the same 'reward' is given, but the delivery of the ;reward' is different to a point that I dislike it. So when I say that they like pvp not capping tomestones, that is what I am getting at.

Note: I used reward in quotations, because I was using the same word to convey two different things - and I unfortunately couldn't think of a proper replacement.

To be honest, I came to this game understanding it had a token - and I played games before which had similar token systems. I've always hated them, and just haven't complained until now on the forum as I figured it's not a productive argument (devs aren't going to change it), but someone brought it up.

Generally, it's not so much the tomes/scrips/whatever to grind, it's the caps that annoy me. They are deliberate eye-dropper approach, and result in whatever you finally finish grinding for being obsolete within a month or less, and no real reward for the work other than more work to do it again. It would be nice to get to enjoy the benefits of the fruits of your labour for at least a while, but instead it's just a constant hamster wheel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Yeah you are definitely not catching my issue. My issue is the lack of effort, static time constraints, weekly cap, and predictability of tomestones make getting gear dull and not a rewarding experience.

In this sense, I could say do a dungeon / pvp (or whatever content) and get the drop at the end, or I could do it and get tomestones to buy my drop. The first option is a rewarding experience where as the second is not. The same content is done and the same 'reward' is given, but the delivery of the ;reward' is different to a point that I dislike it. So when I say that they like pvp not capping tomestones, that is what I am getting at.

Note: I used reward in quotations, because I was using the same word to convey two different things - and I unfortunately couldn't think of a proper replacement.

To be honest, I came to this game understanding it had a token - and I played games before which had similar token systems. I've always hated them, and just haven't complained until now on the forum as I figured it's not a productive argument (devs aren't going to change it), but someone brought it up.

---

That's great that that's your issue. But you made a claim that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Capping tomestones is easy, it's not fun though

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And someone replied saying they have fun capping by doing PvP.

You then said

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Again, it's not capping tomestones you find fun, it's PvP that you find fun

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And my point is that they are the exact same thing and people find capping tomestones fun because they actually enjoy doing level 60 content in this game. I'm not trying to discuss lack of effort, static time constraints, weekly caps, predictability of tomestones make gear dull and not a rewarding experience.

The issue I was replying to was "Tomestone capping is fun or not?". I think it's fun because I enjoy level 60 content and tomestones are a direct result for running level 60 content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kuma_aus

The issue I was replying to was "Tomestone capping is fun or not?". I think it's fun because I enjoy level 60 content and tomestones are a direct result for running level 60 content.

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This this this. You can beat around the bush, but if you enjoy doing ANYTHING that gives you tomestones, then by default you enjoy getting tomestones.

There are many things in the game that give you tomestones. If you don't like any of them, then why even bother playing?

Rewarded for your choice of what you find fun. That's a good deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

There are many things in the game that give you tomestones. If you don't like any of them, then why even bother playing?

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I think this is kind of wrong. There is a lot of stuff to do apart from tomestones in XIV. But the only content that make use of tomestones also give tomestones. So if you don't enjoy any content that gives tomestones, then you don't even need tomestones to begin with. So just go do something else that you do enjoy in the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kuma_aus

I think this is kind of wrong. There is a lot of stuff to do apart from tomestones in XIV. But the only content that make use of tomestones also give tomestones. So if you don't enjoy any content that gives tomestones, then you don't even need tomestones to begin with. So just go do something else that you do enjoy in the game.

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Exactly. If someone is expecting tomestones from say, purely gathering however, they're barking up the wrong tree.

The idea that you "dont need something" especially gear is a matter of opinion.
There are two reasons i can think of that you are wrong right off that bat. Gear progression in this game is fast paced. Even if i dont get this tome gear, a new gear will shortly appear from a new tome. Do i keep not getting new stuff because i dont need it and just wait till they are no longer capped? The situation would still be no different. I would be spamming stuff i dont enjoy to gear only without a cap. Second reason is since gear progresses so fast in this game you can fall behind and not have a high enough ilvl to do new content. I cant keep enjoying xtreme primals without gearing. Even when ex sep came out my ilvl wasnt high enough cause i lost interest in the eso system and had to catch up, it was made worse because of farthings.

Honestly just because i dont need it doesnt mean i dont want it. I like the gear, i like making my character stronger. What i dont like is the current means of doing so.

I'm actually fundamentally against weekly caps on anything anyway in a pay to play game.

Im bored honestly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kuma_aus

I think this is kind of wrong. There is a lot of stuff to do apart from tomestones in XIV. But the only content that make use of tomestones also give tomestones. So if you don't enjoy any content that gives tomestones, then you don't even need tomestones to begin with. So just go do something else that you do enjoy in the game.

---

i enjoy raiding savage , but getting tomes from it is once week , and even killing the 4 bosses wont come close to cap u (not that im killing the 4 bosses now ><) , so u are forced to do other content (DR expert mostly since is the fast way ).....and 4 man are a yawnfest sooo boring , DR trial are boring too but at least u are done in 5 min

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Im bored honestly

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I agree with you. I start new characters lately just to relive the fun parts because honestly the end game grinding for tomes has taken its toll. I love the story, but lately there's been less and less story and more and more "filler"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

This just in, company pays attention to profit and in game numbers more than forum complaints. More at 7!

---

Tell that to steps of faith, SCOB, and the copious amounts of echo you get.
Forum whines change this game and they're a massive reason for so many bad (in my opinion) changes, SE seems to listen to the ridiculous complaints rather than the constructive criticism.


Also, people aren't getting the point of this topic. People are saying it is the FORMULA, that is stale. It's predictable, each major update brings a new tomestone, with a new raid that has normal and savage both have a weekly lockout.
Then comes a 24 man later on with gear the same ilvl or less than the tome gear. Again, with a weekly lockout.

So break that down and you basically get mind numbingly easy tomestones/normal modes and then minimal 4 boss static content. It's empty, it's hollow. There is no real substance to it.
ZERO mid core content or extra raid content for additional gear and something else to do.

The formula itself is stale there's nothing new I've been doing the same things since 2.0 but just with a renamed tomestone and a reskinned expert roulette, and it's even worse for people who don't do savage due to no static, or time constraints because you literally have nothing but faceroll content right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iromi

There is never any replies to these sort of threads from the devs so I am really thinking this is a lost cause and it is going to stay the same. Only glamour and minions and so forth gets replies... :/

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I'd agree with this.

A lot of these threads have popped up over the last few weeks / months and none have gotten any kind of response from a Dev. Hell, do we even know these concerns are being passed over to the developers? From what I see the dev's aren't interested in the concerns but only answering trivial questions and they will continue to develop the game down the same path no matter what.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Tell that to steps of faith, SCOB, and the copious amounts of echo you get.

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Terrible examples. Steps of Faith was gating access to HW, which everyone had to pay for. There was a real risk of them losing subscribers for that.

Raid difficulty, same thing. If it's too difficult it drives the end game raiders who bash themselves against it to no avail insane, fatiguing them of the game.

But tomestones? Tomestones are what you get automatically by playing the game, doing what you pay to do. You don't have to go out of your way to get tomestones. If you enjoy playing combat content in the game, you will get tomestones for combat content.

If it was as disastrous as people are saying, it would have been changed by now. Instead, it's been around for years. There has been no mass loss of subscribers to that.

So instead of whining about it on the forums and continuing to subscribe despite crying bloody murder, play, and cap, the people whining should speak with what companies listen to most: their money. Otherwise, SE has no good reason at all to change a tried, tested method of holding onto the majority of subscribers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kuma_aus

That's great that that's your issue. But you made a claim that



And someone replied saying they have fun capping by doing PvP.

You then said And my point is that they are the exact same thing and people find capping tomestones fun because they actually enjoy doing level 60 content in this game. I'm not trying to discuss lack of effort, static time constraints, weekly caps, predictability of tomestones make gear dull and not a rewarding experience.

The issue I was replying to was "Tomestone capping is fun or not?". I think it's fun because I enjoy level 60 content and tomestones are a direct result for running level 60 content.

---

Again they are not the same thing, one just has the same side effect. You enjoy X and you get Y for doing X doesn't mean you enjoy Y. It is merely a happy side effect.

The reason why this is an important difference is that everyone arguing against tomestones is not suggesting that PvP / Dungeons etc should not be rewarding, it's how the reward is presented and delivered that is not fun.

In this sense, they find the content fun of the game, they do not find the delivery of tomestones fun (or maybe they do, but that's a separate question/statement). I acknowledge that they have no issues with tomestones and it works for them, because they enjoy the content. The issue is that they are not addressing the concerns of this thread, because they are discussing something different. They are discussing a symptom rather than the problem. The symptom is fine, the problem is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

This this this. You can beat around the bush, but if you enjoy doing ANYTHING that gives you tomestones, then by default you enjoy getting tomestones.

There are many things in the game that give you tomestones. If you don't like any of them, then why even bother playing?

Rewarded for your choice of what you find fun. That's a good deal.

---

Again this is false. The issue is not being able to cap tomestones. i've never had a problem capping tomestones. The issue is that the gear is only delivered by tomestones, so obtaining gear is not a rewarding experience. It's just handed to you at a fixed rate for playing the game. There is no effort involved, no sense of completion or satisfaction.


Personally, I'd rather see all tomestones not have a weekly cap, the ilvl lowered on them to 220 for Lore. Then have Midas NM be 230 and Midas Savage be 240 - where I feel like I am actually progressing by doing the easiest content first, then harder, then harder. Rather than do the middle content first, then do the easiest content available for weeks until I am able to go into the hard content. It's a very messed up system of 'progression'. Instead of moving vertically, I feel rather zigzagged.

Alternatively, I'd just prefer to see more sources for gear - dungeon drops etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

Terrible examples. Steps of Faith was gating access to HW, which everyone had to pay for. There was a real risk of them losing subscribers for that.

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Hardly, you stated they don't listen to the forums, and they clearly do at times. Steps of faith caused a massive amount of whine threads. Regardless of what it gates it was a simple fight that got nerfed due to stupid complaints from people refusing to actually get better at the game.

Quote:

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Raid difficulty, same thing. If it's too difficult it drives the end game raiders who bash themselves against it to no avail insane, fatiguing them of the game.

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The game panders to the more casual player, which is fine but the calls for nerfs come from those people who REFUSE to believe they are at fault. I could go into a whole other debate about this with regards to parsers and the playerbase but I've done that argument to death way back when during SCOB and FCOB. All I will say is the people who ask for the nerfs on the forums, are generally the same people who believe pulling 600 DPS in 220 gear is acceptable and wonder why they can't clear content and scream about it's their game they play it how they want, in an MMO where you are meant to group and play with others. The last time a nerf was justified was T5 twisters because only ONE group managed to clear that before the nerf/bug fix if thats what they wanna call it. Take a look at T7, it got destroyed and for what? It already had echo, there was no reason to nerf it into the ground people were clearing it pre echo, but when people overgeared it they STILL cried about it and even with echo, and now you have an empty shell of a once great fight. This however is another argument for another day.

Quote:

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But tomestones? Tomestones are what you get automatically by playing the game, doing what you pay to do. You don't have to go out of your way to get tomestones. If you enjoy playing combat content in the game, you will get tomestones for combat content.

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Again, missing the point, while the topic is about tomestones, the main point is that the general formula has not changed AT ALL since 2.0. Its just a rename/reskin of everything.

Quote:

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If it was as disastrous as people are saying, it would have been changed by now. Instead, it's been around for years. There has been no mass loss of subscribers to that.

---

We only have one set of statistics to go off last I checked, leaked from a SE shareholders report as of January 2015 (could be wrong on the date its been a while since i saw this?), I'll stand corrected if there was something more substantial released later on (registered accounts does not count). Yoshi P has even said they are looking for battle content developers but cannot find them which is why the formula is how it is. Also, the fact that it's been around for years, is the point we are making. Its getting old now, we want something new.

Quote:

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So instead of whining about it on the forums and continuing to subscribe despite crying bloody murder, play, and cap, the people whining should speak with what companies listen to most: their money. Otherwise, SE has no good reason at all to change a tried, tested method of holding onto the majority of subscribers.

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Ah yes of course, trying to voice opinions on the current state of the game is bad we should never do that, lets all sit quiet and hope a game doesn't die, rather than say hey a lot of us are absolutely bored.
Retarded.

For me personally, I have hit them in the wallet, I didn't buy into HW right away because I saw the way the game was heading, friends wanted me to come and join the static for Alex savage a few months after HW release, I subbed, cleared some stuff and got bored and quit again in November last year. Then I resubbed on friday with some other players to take a look at this patch, still the same. I probably won't last more than a month and 3 of those other players already noped out after the weekend.

Here's to hoping the next expansion provides something different, otherwise I won't even bother trying again like so many others in the same position as me.

This game tends to be a lot of rinse and repeat, sadly. It gets monotonous real quick.

I have not subscribed to the game in months. If I get HW, it will be when the new expansion comes out and I can play the game without lockouts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Hardly, you stated they don't listen to the forums, and they clearly do at times. Steps of faith caused a massive amount of whine threads. Regardless of what it gates it was a simple fight that got nerfed due to stupid complaints from people refusing to actually get better at the game.

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Somewhat correct. But, there's a huge difference you're seemingly missing despite me explaining it. Steps of Faith gated HW. People paid for HW. People were not able to get to HW despite paying for it. This would obviously cause disastrous results if it had been allowed to continue. Tomestones have not caused disastrous results. Big difference.

Most of what they listen to on the forums are constructive feedback and positive suggestions for things to add to the game as well, or when they're at risk of losing subscribers due to something. The majority of the posts are not that in this topic, and considering how long we've had the tomestone cycle, SE must not feel a pressing financial need to change things. That's something that whining on the forums won't change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Again, missing the point, while the topic is about tomestones, the main point is that the general formula has not changed AT ALL since 2.0. Its just a rename/reskin of everything.

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I'm not missing any points. I completely agree with you. It is a rename/reskin. But where I disagree with you is that I believe it's fine as is, because SE is doing well with the current model.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jamein

We only have one set of statistics to go off last I checked, leaked from a SE shareholders report as of January 2015 (could be wrong on the date its been a while since i saw this?), I'll stand corrected if there was something more substantial released later on (registered accounts does not count). Yoshi P has even said they are looking for battle content developers but cannot find them which is why the formula is how it is. Also, the fact that it's been around for years, is the point we are making. Its getting old now, we want something new.

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"We" being very likely the vocal minority on the forums? Until given a reason to believe otherwise (and judging by how active Balmung is lately, though admittedly it might be an inaccurate observation), we have every reason to believe things are continuing as normal, i.e. no mass exodus because of tomestones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Ah yes of course, trying to voice opinions is bad we should never do that, lets all sit quiet and hope a game doesn't die, rather than say hey we might like this, or how about trying this.
Retarded.

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Ah yes, opinions. We all have them. The thing is, opinions that aren't backed up by wallet action mean jack to a profit oriented business. Profit and numbers mean far more than opinions on the forums to the people calling the shots.

While people sit here on their most likely active subscriptions, whining about tomestones, SE is getting the subscription income from these same people and as a result, have more reason to believe they're satisfied enough to continue playing than the alternative.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

People have mentioned FFXI and the content available in it as an example, and they are exactly right. With each Expansion, FFXI brought far more variety in terms of unique systems than XIV has even come close to providing.

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Agreed 100% on that too!

I mean why trying to fix something that isn't broke to start with?
FFXI was far from perfect but the variety of stuff to do with friends on your linkshell (aka FC) was amazing and the felt of reward after you accomplish something was oustanding...
I feel SE started all good with ARR because they cared about costumers coming back and stay for good... now that they accomplish that objective I feel they got lazy with HW rehashing old content with new skin and just tag it as a "Hard" mode with new patch...
I don't know when the new expansion will come but if it will come out until 2017-18 and if they will expand game structure with it but honestly I'm not sure if I can keep waiting until that...

I wouldn't mind the grind, if the dungeons weren't so boring. They provide no challenge at all, esp as DPS that heals, and they get easier with every patch...

Why is it even called "Expert"? lol

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Originally Posted by Adire

Somewhat correct. But, there's a huge difference you're seemingly missing despite me explaining it. Steps of Faith gated HW. People paid for HW. People were not able to get to HW despite paying for it. This would obviously cause disastrous results if it had been allowed to continue. Tomestones have not caused disastrous results. Big difference.

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I didn't miss it, I just don't class it as a reason. Steps of faith wasn't T9/T13, it wasn't some hard obstacle, people cleared it on the first day in the first few runs, which shows it was easily clearable, eventually people would have cleared it with or without the nerfs, it was just easier for them to cry about nerfs. It's one of my biggest gripes with the playerbase, the average player is just so...bad (for lack of a better word) but that's because content becomes easily accessible to them if they just wait, there's no reason to improve when things get nerfed/copious amounts of echo, not to mention why 90% of content is now faceroll. However, as I said before that's another argument for another day I guess.

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Most of what they listen to on the forums are constructive feedback and positive suggestions for things to add to the game as well, or when they're at risk of losing subscribers due to something. The majority of the posts are not that in this topic, and considering how long we've had the tomestone cycle, SE must not feel a pressing financial need to change things. That's something that whining on the forums won't change.

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Honestly, the main things I've seen taken into account from the forums are nerfs, and glamour/costmetic changes. Raiders have forever been giving suggestions on the forums and nothing has really been taken into account.
Clearly enough people are starting to get bored of the same formula, people have expressed it here, in game, and through other avenues like reddit.

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I'm not missing any points. I completely agree with you. It is a rename/reskin. But where I disagree with you is that I believe it's fine as is, because SE is doing well with the current model.

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We don't know that, we have no active subscriber numbers to go off. I'm not saying the game is dying, I'm just saying we have nothing to compare subscribers from pre-heavensward to post heavensward. From my personal experience a lot of players I played with have quit. However that doesn't really provide evidence for the overall state of the game.

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"We" being very likely the vocal minority on the forums? Until given a reason to believe otherwise (and judging by how active Balmung is lately, though admittedly it might be an inaccurate observation), we have every reason to believe things are continuing as normal, i.e. no mass exodus because of tomestones.

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We being the playerbase, again, you have absolutely no numbers or facts to back up that the playerbase isn't dwindling. I'm not even saying it is, the game far from dying but we just don't know the numbers right now so I can't use that as an argument and neither can you. We don't know the reason for keeping the formula the same, maybe it is the numbers, or maybe it is the battle developer position that yoshi P said he can't seem to fill.

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Ah yes, opinions. We all have them. The thing is, opinions that aren't backed up by wallet action mean jack to a profit oriented business. Profit and numbers mean far more than opinions on the forums to the people calling the shots.
While people sit here on their most likely active subscriptions, whining about tomestones, SE is getting the subscription income from these same people and as a result, have more reason to believe they're satisfied enough to continue playing than the alternative.

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Like I said, my opinion is backed up by my wallet, I haven't maintained an active sub for more than a 2 months since a month before heavensward release. I only just resubbed and I won't be here after that month is gone. So then there are players who just don't post on the forums, the majority of them they will just silently leave. You don't wait for the mass exodus to happen, that is bad business. If you want to stay ahead, especially in a market as fickle as the MMO one you have to find ways to retain your playerbase before they get bored of the game, not after they decide to quit.

People like me are willing to resub to try out new things, to see if there are improvements, not everyone will though, once they go they move on. However even I am near my last attempt with this game and so are most of the people I play with, and for every person like me who does post on the forums to state why they are getting bored with the game, there are plenty of people who will leave without saying a word.

It might be working for them right now but eventually more and more people will get bored of it, and they should do something about that before they see a loss of subs, not after.

There's only so long you're gonna get by on re-skinned/recycled content.

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Originally Posted by MoonPhaseAlpha

This game tends to be a lot of rinse and repeat, sadly. It gets monotonous real quick.

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The devious part of it is that it doesn't look like that when you start out, having so much to catch up on.

And perhaps the raiding is just simply unpopular. They try so many hoops just to get people to do easy raids, and as someone that does the easy raids, I'm glad for that. But the notion that recovering from a fight is just intolerable is just stupid and frustrating. After so much of that for so long with this method of progression, it is no surprise that I have seen people just go do the more casual content rather than kill themselves over and over. Do I think the raid finder will help? Maybe, but I'm not convinced it won't break something else.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Ah yes, opinions. We all have them. The thing is, opinions that aren't backed up by wallet action mean jack to a profit oriented business. Profit and numbers mean far more than opinions on the forums to the people calling the shots.


While people sit here on their most likely active subscriptions, whining about tomestones, SE is getting the subscription income from these same people and as a result, have more reason to believe they're satisfied enough to continue playing than the alternative.

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There are generally two types of people when it comes to this. One type of person will be loud and voice their concern, one type of person will unsub quietly. (I guess there is likely a mix, but generally speaking..). Do not doubt that both of these types of players exist in FFXIV. New players are coming, old players are leaving constantly. FFXIV has over 5 million registered accounts and an estimated ~700k subscribers. WoW has over 100 million registered accounts and just over 5 million subscribers. These games get a lot of turn-over in playerbase.

It's incredibly important for a business to try and do their best to retain their players/customers. They can either a. let people leave without saying a word and just magically guess what they didn't like. "Hmm, they quit at level X on Job Y, it must have been N for why they quit." However, that's just educated guesswork, or b. look upon the forums and see what feedback is being given, so that they have an idea of why players are dissatisfied.

In other words, if they development/publishing team is doing what you are suggesting, "ah who cares what they are saying on the forums, they're still paying." then they are not very business savvy.