PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

storm's path is also better than delirium and rage of halone combined since the latter two only decrease int/str instead of damage straight out and, to my knowledge, bosses and mobs also have a det stat that influences their damage.

^ That's true. The silver lining though is that % reduction buffs/debuffs stacking is multiplicative not additive.

Haven't tested for confirmation, but theory crafting wise: STR/INT Down + Path would mitigate more damage (though marginal) than Reprisal + Path. Same reason why you usually don't want to stack Rampart + Sentinel (Although Dark Mind is throwing a wrench in this rationale), and Inner Beast provides a full 20% damage mitigation opposed to PLD/DRK's Damage Reduction CDs due to their tank stances having 20% reduction builtin - which reduces any buff's damage reduction by a couple %s (and becomes greater with each CD stacked). It's one of the reasons I think SE has Oaths/Grit on GCD + MP cost, Rampart/Shadowskin.. these CDs are 'more effective' when not in tank stance and they don't want us stance dancing around them exploiting that - obviously hi inc damage and tankbusters are an exception

Since STR/INT down is applied on a different variable in the maths, it doesn't suffer the diminishing returns of stacking like straight damage reduction buffs/debuffs do.

Same is true of slashing/blunt/piercing Damage Increases (Dancing/Eye/Disembowel/Dragon Kick) vs Attack Power (Berserk) vs Damage Increase (BfB FoF) vs STR/DEX/INT+ (X-Pots, Hawk Eye)

edit: a few pages back was talking about this.. why I mentioned an example of PLD having both INT and STR Down, WAR having Path, and DRK having some other unique mitigation debuff (absorbing physical/magical attack power?). That way all 3 tanks have a different form of raid wide mitigation debuff utility that can stack without diminishing or irrelevant returns

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Snip.

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Now here's someone that understands mechanics and makes discussions meaningful instead of taking arguments in circles.

As you said, WAR applying Storm's Path is a trade-off. Which I tried to point out many times. Reynhart speaks as if WAR can apply SE, SP and keep aggro/DPS high with BB and throwing triple Fell Cleaves while maintaining the same (or better) mitigation as PLD with no trade-offs. Which made me think the guy doesn't have any reading comprehension or is just trolling for no reason.

As for buffs stacking, buffs stacked still increase eHP by the same % and each layer multiplies the new eHP by that %.

For example:

PLD has 10,000.

With Shield Oath: eHP is 10,000 * 1.25 = 12,500.

With Shield Oath + Rampart: eHP is 12,500 * 1.25 = 15,625.

While Rampart would reduce less than 20% from the total damage (16% actually), it is still reducing damage received after shield oath by 20%.
So even though you get less damage% mitigated per CD per hit, the effect is still the same in terms of eHP.

This multiplicative effect is less "noticeable" when you apply different effects instead of layers of the same effect: Like how WAR increases max HP with 1 CD and reduces damage with another. Or like how stat down and Storm Path. But in terms of eHP (effective damage) the buffs effects are the same.

For DPS increasing buffs, multiplicative stacking is always better for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

storm's path is also better than delirium and rage of halone combined since the latter two only decrease int/str instead of damage straight out and, to my knowledge, bosses and mobs also have a det stat that influences their damage.

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I haven't seen any test on this in a while. Last results I saw put STR/INT down at about 10%, same as Storm's path. So decided to go out and do one real quick.

MaxHit is ignored because it is not as reliable, and STR down did drop occasionally during tests. No buffs/debuffs other than Shield Oath & Rage of Halone used in any test. Shield Oath is a constant for both tests.

Lv 60 PLD Base(Shield Oath)
Lv 59 Clockwork Harvestman
558 Hits Received
0 parry(back turned)
0 block(no shield, back turned)
MinHit:265
Focused on getting more test samples from this one because any flaws in the MinHit from this one will drastically change results.

265(MinHit)/0.80(Shield Oath) = 331.25 Damage

Therefore presumed Base MinHit is ±331.25 Damage.

Lv 60 PLD with Rage of Halone STR down(Shield Oath)
Lv 59 Clockwork Harvestman
82 Hits Received
0 parry(back turned, used Halone combo attacks between enemy attacks)
0 block
MinHit: 241
Very active testing, looking for any significant change to MinHit.

241/331.25 = 0.728 ~= 72.8% of base damage, or 37.2% mitigation
0.80(Shield Oath)*0.90(Storm's Path) = 0.72 = 72% or 38% mitigation
Conclusion: Halone STR down = 9~10% mitigation, meaning STR/INT down should result in the same mitigation as Storm's path for their respective damage type. Xenosan's theory may be correct, but the difference in mitigation would be small enough that you would need extensive testing and number crunching to spot it.(talking like 250 damage on a 25,000 damage tankbuster) Note that fight times were 11minutes vs 4 minutes & average damage varied by nearly 20% with the only change being Rage of Halone.

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Originally Posted by Disc

Snip.

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Thanks for testing.

I think people assumed STR/INT down were about 8% damage reduction because of the damage formula having Weapon Damage in it. (Same reason people presumably "calculated" Berserk to be 40% damage increase or 80% of Atk Power added.)

Since Berserk seems to be actually adding 50% damage to attacks, I think we are missing something in the damage formula.

Either that, or the formula is correct but NPCs do not have WD in their calculations.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Thanks for testing.

I think people assumed STR/INT down were about 8% damage reduction because of the damage formula having Weapon Damage in it. (Same reason people presumably "calculated" Berserk to be 40% damage increase or 80% of Atk Power added.)

Since Berserk seems to be actually adding 50% damage to attacks, I think we are missing something in the damage formula.

Either that, or the formula is correct but NPCs do not have WD in their calculations.

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It would have to be something off with the damage formula since Berserk looks like it's giving a full (or very close to full) 50% attack boost. Either that or the tool tips are misleading, IE: it *says* attack power (berserk) or STR/INT (halone/delerium), but it really applies the damage boost/reduction after the weapon component has been included and doesn't just effect the base stats you see on the character stat sheet.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

snip

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But according to your logic, AST requires no fixes. They still clear A3S. In your words, it doesn't matter because statics will adjust around them.

Obviously, reality is different. While they can clear the content, balance issues are apparent just as with PLD.

Again, unaddressed in your posts is the tanking meta. Variation is fine, but with tanking, there are 3 aspects that are obviously king because they are the baseline functions of the job. First, they need to be able to live through the incoming damage and mitigate it in a meaningful way. Second, they need to be able to hold aggro. The third is their DPS output. Those are the three main functioning points of a tank in this game. If you have a tank unable to live through the damage, they are unplayable. If people are constantly ripping hate off the tank, that's not going to work. If you have a tank unable to pull their weight offensively, they are swapped out for one that can. Again, we have real examples of this happening in past and present terms.

Currently, all tanks live through the incoming damage with no real differentiation in healing so the "safety" advantage you keep harping on is irrelevant. IT'S IRRELEVANT. All three tanks survive just fine. All three tanks hold aggro well enough. Only one tank obviously lags behind the other two in DPS.

As for the homogenization, variety should come from their utility. So STR debuff vs. INT debuff vs. Path (stacking issues aside) is the type of variety that should set the tanks apart and differentiate the jobs. Self healing vs. weaker targeted healing is another variation in utility. TBH, tanks should all provide their own damage type debuff. WARs have slashing, DRKs and PLDs should also have their own damage debuffs -- so maybe piercing so you aren't so heavily incentivized to pair a DRG with a BRD.

Variety should also come from their play styles and visual styles. It's called different means to the same end.

If you're having a PLD OT, you might as well just have a DRK OT instead. They're better suited for the job than PLDs are and allow you to further increase raid DPS by dropping MNK for NIN / DRG.

Again, why does this problem arise? Because of an imbalance in the baseline. If the DPS was the same, then you would be having a real debate rather than one swayed so heavily by DPS. There is a reason why people call this game DPSXIV.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

In ANY scanario (Physical, magical or mixed), PLD's mitigation is more-or-less on-par to WAR.

In EVERY scanario, WAR receives less effective healing than PLD.

PLD is NOT shafted in that it takes high magical damage. It mitigates magical damage JUST FINE. Same as WAR.

There are two scenarios where one of the two other tanks will do better, mitigation wise, than PLD:

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First, you're just agreeing with what I said. PLD does not always have the best survivability. Plain and simple. But, again, they are always the lowest DPS.

Second, if you played PLD or watched any PLD clear videos, you would realize something. PLDs are spending the large majority of fights IN SWORD OATH. In ideal situations, they spend basically the entire fight in sword oath. Why? Because that's the only way they push out even close to sufficient DPS. So much for that safety and effective healing advantage.

Third, it's hilarious that you're basically saying "the difference in survivability doesn't matter because PLD (and DRK/WAR) are still living through the damage just fine" to prove your point but you seemingly ignore that truth when it's true for the other tanks and is basically the crux of the larger issue with trading safety for DPS. SAFETY DOESN'T MATTER. PLDs are dropping that safety to MAKE UP FOR THEIR CRAPPY DAMAGE ANYWAYS. So in the end, you have a tank that isn't safer and just deals less damage. BALANCED.

I still kinda wonder why PLD is the only tank without any spammable aoe whatsoever. It's one thing that they do less damage, its another that their AoE isn't even half of what the other tanks pull out. It's a relatively minor complaint though since most raids are single target fights and PLD actually performs decently in the one current AoE raid since it plays to their physical defensive strengths, but still, it feels odd that your potential AoE damage is like, probably 30% or so of what DRK and WAR can dish out.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

I still kinda wonder why PLD is the only tank without any spammable aoe whatsoever. It's one thing that they do less damage, its another that their AoE isn't even half of what the other tanks pull out. It's a relatively minor complaint though since most raids are single target fights and PLD actually performs decently in the one current AoE raid since it plays to their physical defensive strengths, but still, it feels odd that your potential AoE damage is like, probably 30% or so of what DRK and WAR can dish out.

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That's balanced though because Paladins are safer.

Because PLD is not meant to be an offensive tank like the other two. The devs have openly stated this.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Huge wall of text of redundant junk.

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A few points, I'm not gonna go in circles and re-iterate the same junk over and over.

Please tell me where in my posts I said AST doesn't need buffs? I said in so many posts that tank balance is no where near healers' and DPS.

You have to be blind or ignorant to not see how "safe" PLD is compared to WAR.

Don't worry, PLD and DRK will get their slashing debuff when BRD and MCH get their piercing and BLM and SMN get their Foe's.

The utility difference is already present to differentiate between the tanks. And PLD brings by far the most utility of the three in at least 5 abilities. *In b4 some retard mentions Storm Path.*

PLD can afford to MT in Sword Oath, it's not news. I did that in T9 Savage at ilv110 for the entire first phase and golems. And T13 at ilv130 until adds. WARs used to drop Defiance a lot as MT in fights like T10, 11 and 12. Now, WAR tanks in Deliverance 80% of the time and DRK drops Grit. Your point? Oh, you want PLD to do the same DPS as Deliverance WAR and non-Grit DRK in Shield Oath? Hmm...

Btw, you are NOT Lucrezia nor Elysium, and unless you were with them as a PLD and you got dropped for a DRK, you have no right to complain here. I have explained many times why 70~100 DPS difference is not as game breaking for average raid groups as it is for bleeding-edge world/server first competition.

If doing 70 DPS less than WAR is what you define as "CRAPPY DAMAGE", then there is not much I can say to you.

If you are unhappy with PLD, don't effing play it, stick to WAR. There is a reason why the game has different classes. If you can't stomach having 70 DPS less than a WAR, then don't play it.

So long as PLD continues to be the safer tank then no they shouldn't have dps to match the other tanks.

PLD is honestly this games only true DEFENSIVE Tank with PARTY support abilities to boot.

Party Support ? Check
Physical Cooldowns ? Check
Magical Cooldown ? Check ? (Yes Sentienal and Rampart count as they decrease damage on both types)
Other Forms of Mitigation ? (Stoneskin AND a Shield) check.

This is why they will never do the same dps as the other tanks.

"PLD is the safest tank, PLD is the safest tank, PLD is the safest tank" it feels almost like a mantra to you people now. Can you please empirically demonstrate PLD being the "safest tank" in any meaningful way in current endgame content? The way you go about it would imply that PLD is so god damned sturdy that one would imagine healers get higher DPS uptime just from bringing one, and yet everything seems to point to the contrary. A lot of the people citing PLD 'safety' seem to have had a bad case of forgetting we're not in A Realm Reborn anymore, Coil is not relevant content, and the way Alexander fights are designed is not the same as coil. The fact so many of you cite the existence of the shield as reasoning PLD is So Tuff shows me you don't know anything about current endgame.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

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You talking about "70 dps less than war" is straight out ridiculous. It seems you have started ignoring empirical facts and just started sticking to that one fulltime sword oath no rage of halone parse as the gospel of truth, as if it genuinely demonstrated PLD's massive DPS drop when going into Shield Oath. You also have repeatedly ignored the fact that class unbalance scales down from groups like Lucrezia to your average regular raid group, and that regardless of your static's skill level there are still optimal and suboptimal choices, PLD outside A2S being one of the latter.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Same BS as the person before.

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Again, if you can't see PLD's safety, you're blind or ignorant. Hallowed Ground alone is proof enough. And yes, healers will do more DPS with a PLD tank over WAR assuming the same skill level on the tank. PLD and WAR haven't changed much compared to A Realm Reborn. PLD actually got better with more mitigation, support AND EFFING DPS than it used to have in ARR. Goring Blade is literally the second strongest melee skill in the game now after Chaos Thrust. Royal Authority is only 20 potency lower than Full Thrust. I don't see your point here.

All of PLD's CDs are push-and-forget. They all last long enough and are very potent. There is no timing difficulty to them. There is no resource (Wrath or MP) that you can f*&# up. There are no pre-requisite CDs (DA) and aren't on the GCD (IB) that could get consumed by other actions. All you do is push CD before damage.

Oh, and Hallowed Ground. You can't get any safer.

The whole so many "empirical facts" I'm assumingly ignoring on PLD DPS are far less than the actual facts you are ignoring on WAR DPS. WAR will not be running around throwing triple Fell Cleaves per berserk. SPECIALLY if they have to take any form of damage in that fight. And the fact that triple FC is a DPS loss because of how many CDs you delay to align them and how long you hold on to Abandon stacks just to meet the conditions of triple FC. Storm Path is a DPS loss in every situation. Inner Beast is a DPS loss because it's not Fell Cleave. Going into Defiance for Inner Beast or Equilibrium heal is at least 10 seconds of 30% DPS loss. Pacification after Berserk not getting esuna'd is a DPS loss. But fine, let's pretend WAR doesn't lose DPS at all but PLD loses all of 700 DPS when they have to do 1 RoH instead of RA. (Yes I can exaggerate and use sarcasm too).

Let's face it, there is no effing way you'll play half as good as Lucrezia. Reasons you shouldn't compare yourself to them:

1- You do not spend 18 hours a day banging your head on the same boss and throwing potions and waiting on CDs in every pull.
2- By the time you do any of the content they did, you have at least 2 or 3 more pieces of 10 ilvs higher.
3- You do not have the technical knowledge that Bleeding Edge groups work with. The very fact that you are crying here over PLD's DPS is proof enough.

Any uneducated misinformation you get from their decisions do not affect your average raid balance in ANY way, form or shape. Stop bringing them up. Lucrezia dropped a tank for another tank to squeeze DPS, so what? They dropped AN ACTUAL DPS CLASS for another. It's called "Bringing the right tools for the job." It's strategy and class synergy, not imbalance.

Did I mention Hallowed Ground?

I'm not gonna waste more time replying to the same points over and over again.

I will be blunt (not like I haven't been so in this entire post lol) and say:

If you do not let your healers do more DPS as a PLD over a WAR or DRK, getgud. (you or the healers or both)
If you are more than 150 DPS behind a WAR MT as MT with the slashing debuff, getgud.
If you are more than 100 DPS behind a WAR OT as OT with the slashing debuff, getgud.
If you feel unsafe, play WAR, if you still feel unsafe, getgud.

If you do not want to do the above, of if you are unhappy with how PLD plays still or think it's too damned under-powered, don't effing play it. There is a reason there are different classes. We have 3 tanks now.

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Originally Posted by LucentLagombi

There is plenty of magic damage in a2 lol.

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Where? The Jagd dolls are all physical. So are the GobWidows.. and the hardhelms and hardminds.. And the snipers..

Uh.. I've beaten A2 savage 3x already. I think that fight is predominantly physical. Our PLD shines there. Idk which A2 you're in. Even the explosion from the bombs (if a shitty gobwalker driver misses one) is physical damage.

1) Pld is more sturdy for a number of reasons. Shield alone is 5 to 10% reduced physical damage, native, without doing anything. While not of much use regarding tank busters, it does mean that pld are easier to heal outside of tank busters. In particular, when healers are focused on the party, the MT taking reduced "day to day" damage means healers are not as stressed by having to heal on two fronts at once. Another point is that they naturally get their damage reduction debuff while main tanking. They ARE going to use rage of halone. I am currently in a Pld/War group with no ninja. Having the Pld MT means we have close to 100% uptime on both path and halone debuff. That combination is the only one where you will have close to 100% uptime on 2 10% damage reduction debuffs. Reprisal from Drk is nowhere near 100% uptime, and should the War MT, then it is not realistic to maintain both path and halone up, since that means the MT not using his aggro combo while the pld use his.

2) The utility of pld cannot be understated either. You are brushing it off like it is nothing. As far as i know, almost any group went into A2S with a pld, and for good reason -- their sturdiness along with their utility are invaluable in there. Their aoe shield is extremely usefull to mitigate big aoe hits. Cover has lots of great uses; in A2S, covering a healer targeted by snipers really make some waves much easier. It is by no mean "mandatory" but it make some things soother. HG remain an amazing tool to push your group through your current struggling point to experience more of a fight. It is better than the Drk and War equivalent by miles, allowing healers to catch up when behind, providing a substantial DPS boost to the group by allowing an insane amount of dps from healers for 10 to 12 seconds, when it is not simply allowing you to bypass some hard parts purely and simply.

3) The dps difference is ridiculously low with other tanks.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

It seems you have started ignoring empirical facts and just started sticking to that one fulltime sword oath no rage of halone parse as the gospel of truth, as if it genuinely demonstrated PLD's massive DPS drop when going into Shield Oath.

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Well what it seems is that you are trying to compare the dps of warrior that are tank dancing as much as possible with Pld staying in shield oath all the time. It really is a case of "GIT GUD" -- i'm sorry that's all there is to it.

Here is a video of a clear of A3S using a warrior and pld. The Pld did 650 dps, the warrior 778. That it despite the Pld main tanking the whole phase 1, the whole phase 2, and one more cascade phase in phase 4 than the warrior. Despite all this time main tanking (and thus having to use shield oath for a lot of it, and having to use rage of halone both for debuffs and aggro), there is only a 128 difference in dps. It is almost certain that should they have decided to reverse the roles: 1) the warrior would most likely not have done much more than the Pld, and 2) that would have come at the cost of a serious decrease in the safety of the MT.

You can continue having your head in the sand if you want. But the facts are here for you to consider. Pld is doing a MARGINAL amount of dps lower than the other tanks. It has only been significant for world first group on a3s without weapons, a feat that Yoshida admitted himself he did not think was possible. They won literally 1 second before wiping, if even that, they had to squeeze just EVERY bit of dps in, hence the choice of a Drk instead of a Pld. For anyone else, the difference is so minim it doesn't matter -- if anything it is BETTER to attempt A3S with a pld than a drk for anyone else, because it is a physical heavy fight, and Pld provide much more safety for the group compared to a Drk.

War just work amazingly as an OT. Their kit is super synergetic, as others have said, and being in an OT position allow them to maximize it, by keeping eye up 100%, having path usable as much as they want, making awesome use of unchained. War MT / Pld OT used to be higher dps, but that's not true anymore, now that War has their DPS stance and Pld have options to do more damage as a MT.

TL;DR: all three tanks are quite balanced at the moment. Pld offers the best Physical mitigation by far, and requires less day-to-day healing, while offering significant utility advantages over the other tanks. Drk offers the most mitigation in magic heavy fights, and provide slightly more DPS than a Pld as MT. War just work much better as an OT than a MT, not that they are "bad" at MT per say, but their kit can become ackward as MT (most notably due to the pressure between eye, path, and butcher), whereas it is pure gold as OT.
So you just have War best as OT, Pld best MT on physical encounters, Drk best MT on magical encounters. All three have their place in the wheel of life, and all is good.

This is still a thing? Why are people still pretending that their world first? By this time any tank should be able to clear savage A1-A3 due to gear progression.

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Originally Posted by Casper

1)Well what it seems is that you are trying to compare the dps of warrior that are tank dancing as much as possible with Pld staying in shield oath all the time. It really is a case of "GIT GUD" -- i'm sorry that's all there is to it.

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Spare me your condescension. There are real reasons why a PLD who stance dances as much as a WAR does will do less damage objectively speaking given an equal skill level, 100% of the time. Since you apparently don't seem to realize these by yourself I guess I'll have to point them out.

1) In Sword Oath, PLD's extra auto-attack damage accounts for somewhere between 10% and 13% of their DPS, depending on weapon delay.
2) PLD has no means whatsoever to ignore the damage penalty from Shield Oath.
3) PLD has the single clunkiest stance dancing system of all 3 tanks, with every stance switch interrupting combos and resulting in a lost GCD.

Assuming that Sword Oath's extra added damage is 10%-13% of PLD's DPS, and the fact that Shield Oath applies the 80% damage reduction and entirely removes the extra damage from Sword Oath, PLD's DPS goes down to somewhere around 70% of the Sword Oath base, lower than Warrior's 75% from Defiance, and not taking into account that simply going into Shield Oath for high damage phases results in lost GCDs, might interrupt combos if done at an inappropriate time, and also that unlike Warrior you have 0 means whatsoever to sidestep the major damage penalty from Shield Oath, you don't have off-GCD stance dances, you don't have Unchained, and you don't have any moves that ignore the damage penalty. Essentially, every single second you spend in Shield Oath increases the DPS gap between PLD and WAR, and thus, assuming you stance dance an equal amount, the DPS difference between PLD and WAR will be higher than comparing both of them in fulltime DPS stance.

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Originally Posted by Seku

This is still a thing? Why are people still pretending that their world first? By this time any tank should be able to clear savage A1-A3 due to gear progression.

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It's still "a thing" because you people seem incapable of understanding that just because a raid can be, feasibly, once gear levels get high enough, be cleared with any composition, it doesn't change the fact that imbalances create optimal compositions which are easier to clear with because they're objectively better. You can probably clear A3S with, of all things, double AST, once gear catches up enough. Does this mean double AST is good? No. You could probably clear all of Final Coil with a DRG pre 2.45 despite the class being a broken, clunky mess of punishing positionals with the lowest DPS of all melees and astoundingly awful survivability against magic damage. That it's possible doesn't mean it's a good idea, and any static that is serious about progression will prefer to go for optimal party compositions because few people enjoy wiping a few extra dozen times on a raid because one of your members wants to be special and bring a class that has been demonstrated to be inferior at the job. You can probably bear with it if you raid casually or with friends and thus your attachment to that one goof who insists on playing AST forever is because they're your friend, but it doesn't change the fact you'd probably still clear faster and more efficiently if that person switched jobs.

Ultimately it feels weird that you all have such a kneejerk reaction to PLD requiring some buffs to bring them to a similar level to WAR in terms of usefulness, the buffs PLD requires are frankly quite minor and basically boil down to "make Shield Oath less punishing to occasionally swap to". PLD Sword Oath DPS is decent and within acceptable parameters, the major holes in PLD as a class are 1) Shield Oath sucks compared to every other tank stance in terms of damage 2) Stance dancing for PLD (and to a lesser degree DRK) is unnecessarily clunky 3) Both PLD and DRK need some means to restore their TP as either OT or MT and 4) PLD having no AoE at all is an oddity and at this point in the game makes no sense.

splitting hairs about dps when it isnt even your job

i think its funny how many tanks are even focused on dps. how many of you even have competitive world/realm rankings? because that's the only place your tank DPS is even going to matter.

your tank dps is not going to matter in a static where the dps can't even perform within 90% of the best players of their class. it's not to say that you shouldn't take advantage of everything you have, but it's a whole lot of stress over a whole lot of nothing.

i'll put it this way though; what's the point of putting a bunch of stickers, $4000 rims and a flowmaster on your honda? it's nice, but it's not making your car go any faster.

it's like yeah, scaring the crap out of a guy in the parking lot with your high pitched noisy exhaust and winking at his girlfriend who is laughing hysterically is priceless, but that really doesn't have anything to do with winning the quarter mile

If tank DPS is so irrelevant it seems quite odd that both Warrior and Paladin got abilities that do absolutely nothing besides damage. The tank meta has been "as much survivability as you need, as much DPS as you can" for a long time now and this doesn't apply exclusively to Lucrezia and Elysium. If your static's DPS "can't even perform within 90% of the best players of their class" this makes tank DPS all the more important, not less.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Snip.

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Assuming PLD can even dance like a WAR, PLD is only ~8% DPS behind WAR. PLD isn't the only clunky stance dancer and DRK pays more MP with Grit alone than PLD going to Sword Oath and back to Shield Oath. Usually by the time you want to go back to Shield Oath, it's almost full. MP is not even a vital resource for PLD and is very easy to refill. I won't argue why PLD stances should remain the same way and not be similar to WAR's stances.

So, it is fair to calculate the bonus lost from Sword Oath and add it to the malus from Shield Oath, but not the bonus from Deliverance and loss of 200 potency per Inner Beast that WAR loses? Your logic is astounding.

You want to throw some percentages and potencies at random? I can do that too! So let's do it!

DoTs You have the second highest potency skill in the game: Goring Blade at 540. That's higher than *gasp* Fell Cleave! Fracture is shit in comparison at 300 potency and 80 TP and no wrath/abandon generated.

Combo Finishers You have Royal Authority at 340. That's 60 potency higher than Delirium (DRK's strongest non-DA finisher). That's also 80~120 potency higher than any of the WAR combo finishers. It is actually so strong that the only DPS with a stronger finisher is DRG!

Off GCDs You have 2 VERY potent oGCDs on short CDs in SW (300) and CoS (250).

WAR has Maim for a reason: It has generally lower average potency on all its combos than PLD and DRK and WAR has no oGCDs.

More to the point:

PLD is no effing where near AST. AST is pure garbage. AST is almost as bad as 2.0 WAR.

PLD is no where near pre-2.45 DRG. DRG wasn't as garbage as you make it sound. Content has been cleared with DRG at a relevant time. People didn't need to "outgear" T13 to beat it with a DRG. The problem back then was MNK's INT Down was too strong to ignore. DRG was second highest single target DPS and did at least twice or triple the DPS of a monk in AoE. DRG was fine in SCoB and DRG only got into a bad spot when NIN came out. NIN did higher DPS than DRG and increased raid DPS with TA and Goad so it pushed DRG out of raid comps. DRG was never in a state similar to AST today. Actually for the entirety of 2.0 and most of 2.1, DRG had a VERY solid raid spot when DRG/BRD/BRD/BLM was a thing. Bringing DPS balance when it's been dancing so much with far more (7) classes to fill twice as many spots as tanks is totally irrelevant.

Bringing up DPS imbalance is irrelevant since tanks are FAR MORE BALANCED than DPS. Also get it through your thick skull that Lucrezia dropped a DPS class for another as well.

Again, you are not Lucrezia or even anywhere near world 200th. You play on a whole different level. I'll quote myself:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Let's face it, there is no effing way you'll play half as good as Lucrezia. Reasons you shouldn't compare yourself to them:

1- You do not spend 18 hours a day banging your head on the same boss and throwing potions and waiting on CDs in every pull.
2- By the time you do any of the content they did, you have at least 2 or 3 more pieces of 10 ilvs higher.
3- You do not have the technical knowledge that Bleeding Edge groups work with. The very fact that you are crying here over PLD's DPS is proof enough.

Any uneducated misinformation you get from their decisions do not affect your average raid balance in ANY way, form or shape. Stop bringing them up. Lucrezia dropped a tank for another tank to squeeze DPS, so what? They dropped AN ACTUAL DPS CLASS for another. It's called "Bringing the right tools for the job." It's strategy and class synergy, not imbalance.

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Let's not forget that Lucrezia tried with a PLD MT first before they finally decided to go DRK. And the main reason for DRK over PLD is INT Down since they dropped the monk. Yes, PLD is THAT good.

Ultimately it feels weird that you have such a kneejerk reaction to PLD having slightly lower DPS than WAR when its main role isn't even to DPS.

Again, I'll quote myself:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

If you do not let your healers do more DPS as a PLD over a WAR or DRK, getgud. (you or the healers or both)
If you are more than 150 DPS behind a WAR MT as MT with the slashing debuff, getgud.
If you are more than 100 DPS behind a WAR OT as OT with the slashing debuff, getgud.
If you feel unsafe, play WAR, if you still feel unsafe, getgud.

If you do not want to do the above, of if you are unhappy with how PLD plays still or think it's too damned under-powered, don't effing play it. There is a reason there are different classes. We have 3 tanks now.

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No body is saying tank DPS is irrelevant. Difference between the tank classes DPS however, is irrelevant!

Honestly I can't take you seriously if you argue these points any more.

Just wanted to say. . .WE'VE REACHED 300 REPLIES!

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Just wanted to say. . .WE'VE REACHED 300 REPLIES!

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Yet they still don't get the memo that giving plds more dps would break it's balance.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Just wanted to say. . .WE'VE REACHED 300 REPLIES!

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Yeah I'm not reading all these doctorate thesis papers on the subject.

PLD is mostly fine, but could use some changes to make it more fun to play.

Be these changes help increase dps slightly, help take some load off of healers so that can dps more, or give a debuff to help dps do more damage.

Just something to make it more fun.

Phoenicia are you seriously counting the potencies of combo moves based solely on their finishers? lmao. Why not actually average the potencies of the entire weaponskill combo? Oh wait, its because doing it that way doesn't support your claims of PLD DPS OP. Delirium 60 potency behind Royal authority? Please,
Delirium is (150 + 250 + 280)/3 = 226.6... average potency/gcd
Royal Authority is (150 + 200 + 340)/3 = 230... average potency/gcd

And the Goring Blade you insist is so incredibly strong? Assuming you get lucky and the last tick doesn't clip
Goring Blade is (150 + 230 + 540)/3 = 306.6... average potency/gcd
To compare Dark Arts Soul Eater is (150 + 250 + 400)/3 = 266.6... weaker for certain, but usable more often and fully benefits from Slashing debuff (which DoT ticks do not benefit from), nevermind that DRK has a 500 potency DoT with no required wind-up and a 60 tp cost in Scourge.

Counting the potency of WAR combos as if it was Oh So Low is particularly funny since unless you don't know your rotation at all they will all benefit from Maim's +20% damage bonus, which leaves Butcher's Block alone at a "potency" of 336 -nearly that of Royal Authority-.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

Yet they still don't get the memo that giving plds more dps would break it's balance.

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The glorious balance where its only brought to one out of four endgame raids, lol.

Please give drg the int debuff so I dont have to play dark knight thanks

Also reprisal op :cool:

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Snip.

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This one totally flew over your head, didn't it? lol

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You want to throw some percentages and potencies at random? I can do that too! So let's do it!

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You really are trying hard to nitpick instead of proving me wrong. Nothing I said in my post was wrong. I did say Maim increases WAR's potency to be on level with PLD and DRK, didn't I? Or did that also fly over your head as well the second you found a point you could nitpick?

You threw out that PLD loses Sword Oath bonus whine in Shield Oath (no sh*t, Sherlock?) but WAR only has the Defiance penalty to deal with. Which is "throwing random numbers out of context". hence, I told you I could do the same.

Also your average potency argument does nothing but support my points. PLD average potency isn't far behind the other tanks (it's actually ahead with some of its combos).

Now "debunk" my post by actual solid facts or let this thread die.

Been following this thread for a few days and it mostly an interesting read, as long as you ignore the attacks on posters. People will always have different opinions, try to be civil to each other.

I have all 3 tanks at 60 and 186-189 ilevel.

Personal pref, I favor the PLD or DRK. I just dont care for the WAR playstyle. Not saying its crap, I am well aware of its abilitys etc, its just not *for me*. The DRK is fun and I enjoy it but I find myself more and more on the PLD since I've played it the most and enjoy it the most. My only *issue* with PLD is their Sub-par AoE dmg. Not a crippling drawback for a tank but I do notice that dungeon runs are abit faster on the DRK since I can throw out alot more AoE DPS.

I notice AoE threat issues on PLD only in ALEX, if my co-tank is a WAR / DRK and wants to spam overpower / Abyssal Drain ... I wont bother to fight them for aggro as a PLD, waste of my time, I'll just start to DPS and be happy. Of course this is a non-issue in dungeons since there is no co tank and PLD threat is more than sufficient there. So the threat issues? Meh. Not really a concern. A pre-formed raid will coordinate .. a PUG just let them have it if they can take the hits /shrug. As long as you can out-threat the DPS its fine, if that becomes and issue I'm sure it will be addressed.

Bottom line for me, and I dont see it as being *balance breaking at all* would be to add a little more AOE DPS to the PLD in some form. Would not effect raids really (A2 being the only exception - and WAR / DRK are not brought to that just b/c of their AOE dmg ability) but it would bring them on par with the other tank classes in AoE for dungeon runs, which lets be honest, is what a majority of the player base does.

https://youtu.be/PPdPbmwkMh0?t=37m53s

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...ay-WAR./page24

Just to re-iterate an earlier point -- the truth is apparent to everyone but a select few obviously biased people blatantly trying to protect their class of choice. Most of the people saying PLD is okay don't even play PLD. It's not just Elysium and Lucrezia that prefer DRKs now. A lot of groups are dropping PLDs or recruiting DRK / WAR instead.

The extra DPS doesn't just help top progression groups. It helps any group that struggles meeting DPS checks which is A LOT of groups.

ITT: Not paladins telling paladins that they are fine.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

If tank DPS is so irrelevant it seems quite odd that both Warrior and Paladin got abilities that do absolutely nothing besides damage. The tank meta has been "as much survivability as you need, as much DPS as you can" for a long time now and this doesn't apply exclusively to Lucrezia and Elysium. If your static's DPS "can't even perform within 90% of the best players of their class" this makes tank DPS all the more important, not less.

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if your static is leaning on tanks so much for damage that they are literally demanding you do more dps or gtfo there is a pretty good chance that your raid group is having bigger issues than not meeting a dps check.

but really? i think it's hilarious. just last month everyone was crying about how DRK was too weak, how it was just worse by comparison to both other tanks in every way and needed buffs.

oh my el oh els.

It's because magic damage is relevant now (DRK's specialty) + physical damage reduction isn't relevant enough to warrant PLD's mitigation.

Once we get new fights with high physical damage, PLD will rise again and DRKs will start complaining as they were before Savage showed up.

All tanks can complete all content and reduce relatively the same amount of damage + deal relatively the same amount of damage. This isn't a 2.0 WAR issue where the job literally required you to be carried by healers for everything you did, this is a "my job isn't optimal for everything ever pls fix".

PLD DPS is fine. PLD mitigation is fine. You have Hallowed and a shield. Please go cry me a river kthnx

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Originally Posted by Delorean

but really? i think it's hilarious. just last month everyone was crying about how DRK was too weak, how it was just worse by comparison to both other tanks in every way and needed buffs.

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Actually, I was pointing out that DRK was good except the bugs that fucked over MP resources for those that wanted to red line their MP bar and was talking about using a DRK instead of a PLD to kick a MNK out of a party to fit in a Nin or Drg for extended damage, before Alexander savage came out.

And yes....damage is a important thing when you're faced with a enraged timer and it means the win. Which is the case currently. But luckily that's slowly starting to go away. While PLD can clear content, some of it's abilities and threat modifiers needs to be reworked.

That or settle with the mind set of PLD for physical fights and DRK for magical fights. With either being used later on after you've geared up.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Actually, I was pointing out that DRK was good except the bugs that fucked over MP resources for those that wanted to red line their MP bar and was talking about using a DRK instead of a PLD to kick a MNK out of a party to fit in a Nin or Drg for extended damage, before Alexander savage came out.

And yes....damage is a important thing when you're faced with a enraged timer and it means the win. Which is the case currently. But luckily that's slowly starting to go away. While PLD can clear content, some of it's abilities and threat modifiers needs to be reworked.

That or settle with the mind set of PLD for physical fights and DRK for magical fights. With either being used later on after you've geared up.

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And warrior is apparently for everything. Yay. What if neither tank in a group want to be a warrior?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

It's because magic damage is relevant now (DRK's specialty) + physical damage reduction isn't relevant enough to warrant PLD's mitigation.

Once we get new fights with high physical damage, PLD will rise again and DRKs will start complaining as they were before Savage showed up.

All tanks can complete all content and reduce relatively the same amount of damage + deal relatively the same amount of damage. This isn't a 2.0 WAR issue where the job literally required you to be carried by healers for everything you did, this is a "my job isn't optimal for everything ever pls fix".

PLD DPS is fine. PLD mitigation is fine. You have Hallowed and a shield. Please go cry me a river kthnx

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All tanks can indeed compete...but you have to take a warrior.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Complaints about PLD potency

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Some potency numbers for you. The WAR math is wrong, but not sure by how much. I did not count their crit bonuses for reasons, and forgot to include the 5% from Deliverance. The DRK & PLD numbers are more reliable & what I was more interested in comparing. PLD grows noticeably stronger with gear changing play style, there's not as big of an effect with the other two tanks. I would call this fairly balanced considering how far ahead PLD is in terms of mitigation in most fights.

Cliff notes:

DRKTotal Potency Per Minute
8400 Base
10063 w/ 5 Dark Arts + Darkside

PLD Total Potency Per Minute
8322 Base
9389 w/ FoF

WAR Total Potency Per Minute
6150
7380 w/ Maim
7749 potency counting 5% from Deliverance that I forgot(possibly 8601 with Berserk if assumed 50% bonus 22% of the time)

Also worth noting the FoF & Berserk can potentially see bigger gains as opposed to Darkside. Reason being that these numbers are averaged. So if they were to use more high potency abilities while those buffs were up they would see more potency over the course of a fight. And any phase changes while those buffs are down will result in more up time while actually engaged. Darkside is a flat 15% in all scenarios except the ones where you screw up & hit 0mp.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

And warrior is apparently for everything. Yay. What if neither tank in a group want to be a warrior?

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Content can be cleared without a WAR. But am willing to bet most groups would drop the weaker tank.

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Originally Posted by Disc

I would call this fairly balanced considering how far ahead PLD is in terms of mitigation.

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Maybe when a majority of dangerous moves are physical again.

As long as the auto-attack is physical PLD will always take noticeably less damage over the course of a fight. Abilities being physical too just brings them to a near OP levels of mitigation if they know how to time Sheltron.(and have Halone up) A4 is the only fight where they really fall behind, and not by much if you have a MNK. But then you're also bringing heals and AoE shields in an AoE fight.

I don't know. I think people will always do things the way other people have done it, like the big FC's and youtubes. But back on topic, PLD dps, if it is indeed buffed what do you buff it too, do you make the dmg the same as a wars, then you are taking what the war stands for away. I am two minds on the DPS boost to PLD, like I said in the other threads, but I lean more to the fact that they should give us abilities that will actually make us useful and unique in a fight. At the moment everything is about DPS fast as possible.

Their OT DPS is fine. It's their DPS while MTing that has always been low. It's just that until now, it hasn't knocked them out of raid comps because there was no other choice. They don't need a big boost, just something minor like increasing Shield Swipe's potency to higher than the average potency of their different combos (maybe with a portion of it scaling based on block value so that you don't mess up shield type balance) so that there is a point in using the ability outside of as a TP saver. You make an unused ability usable, give more depth to itemization, increase the interactiveness and uniqueness of PLD tanking by making it more proc based (and you already have abilities to soften the RNG element with Sheltron and Bulwark), you make a less used dCD relevant again by doubling its effect as an oCD (it feels good being excited about using Bulwark), you bring home the idea of the shield being a bigger part of PLD gameplay, and leave their OT DPS largely untouched.

I cannot think of a more complete solution.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

They don't need a big boost, just something minor like increasing Shield Swipe's potency to higher than the average potency of their different combos (maybe with a portion of it scaling based on block value so that you don't mess up shield type balance) so that there is a point in using the ability outside of as a TP saver.

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Or give them back War Drum from 1.0. A conal Shield Swipe that increases enmity. (Maybe as a trait instead of Enhanced Awareness)

AoE damage and threat is a thing where PLD is clearly far behind the other two tanks.
Sword Oath should also increase the potency of skills and not Auto-attack, because our enmity modifiers would benefit from it, for the part where tanking in Sword Oath is doable.