Goodbye cleric stance.. you will be sorely missed

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Originally Posted by Hailie

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If long post was big problem for you then maybe should have ask me for shorter version or for clarity on what I say?
This is manners.
I understand if post too long for you because I sum up my thought and idea as whole so I do not need reply later and spam thread like many do. This is forum. Such thing is more than common depend on context of original posting?

You had option not to reply or thinking over course of time before replying. Pointing out long post have nothing to do with it, I never ask for reply within 2 hour or even within day. I would say you have time to think over what I post or read slowly and plan idea? Instead choose to reply as soon as possible?
Then is less my fault and more yours.

It was explanation for you to understand and even if you do not reply I am ok because my reason for write the last post is explanation. This natural mean post is long?

I have say before you had option to ask for clarification, instead choose not to. You say is misunderstanding on my part as well? I have misunderstand nothing since you seem to have better English than I do? Then your thought would be very clear for me to see.
Am I right to say this?

The only misunderstanding would be on your side due to not able to read properly for one of many reason but "novel" do not qualify as such reason. I find it silly you complain about long post and difficulty to find what I try to say, when all you need to do is ask politely for summary on what you want to know.

Politeness not natural? Instead choose to be impulsive then blame my English? :confused:

My last post only long because I say at start, I try to explain to you everything of what you cherrypick. Maybe should work on skimming skill? I can not sympathize as I do not have such reading problem with "novel" post. :D

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

I hope this pic would resolve your doubt:
Not everyone can be reasoning. Lack of progressive and constructive argument is probably why community manager still not reacting at this point. If they want to be tapped in the grief, let them be. I have suggested them an option of taking this to the producer open letter, rest is up to them.

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Picture is more true than most thing and all I say in reply is:
http://i57.tinypic.com/1zoz0n7.jpg

Underline problem is many people suffer rational ignorance? If so then really time wasted. I would have give up actually but you have post many explanation so I try to help explain too since I understand where you come from in your viewpoint. :cool:

But if really so many do not bother to learn then I agree with you since not everyone can be logical. :rolleyes:
Very wise saying, thank you for remind.

I do not think even they will ask Producer and will just make more thread for complain, make me wonder what happen in 2.4.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

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At this point I think you are just arguing for arguments sake.

Also, if YOU bothered to look at my profile, which I'm sure you did, you would remember that I have multiple classes leveled. I have experience playing classes aside from SMN/SCH. I have played WHM on FL. You're just looking for ways to try and pick apart things people say now.

Also, what Kisada said was common knowledge. The people who are ignorant on how to optimize their class complain that something is "OP" when they are able to not be raped by their DPS onslaught. Also, it was very clearly a poor and lazy decision to remove CS rather than adjust some things and letting it alone.

And yes, there is a lack of healers issue that is starting to inflict FL. Immortal Flames has it the hardest.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

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People tend to not listen to long-winded "I know better than you" speeches. Also Gor has been arguing against this from the posts I read of hers.

So a lot of healers here also seem to agree that cleric stance or healer DPS needed to be nerfed...I totally agree it did and yes I also play SCH/WHM. So if they put cleric stance back, what DPS % should healers be nerfed? 50%? 80%? 20%? IMO the number has to be fairly high because healers are too strong in heals and DPS...thats why they nerfed cleric stance...so even if they return it they still need to heavily nerf healer DPS....so how much is fair? What if they put cleric stance back and nerf heals somewhat...is that better?

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Originally Posted by Nekomataempusin

At this point I think you are just arguing for arguments sake.

People tend to not listen to long-winded "I know better than you" speeches. Also Gor has been arguing against this from the posts I read of hers.

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Take a mirror, you are describing yourself. You are either miss the point I am making or the selective hearing got you...... There a good number of healing players who agreed that Clearic stance is too much on PvP. Why are their opinions being ignored? Clearly it is selective hearing in play.

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Originally Posted by Gor

because it gives a small alternative to healing and it makes the class more fun so healers don't have to just stand around and just heal. to have a defense because SCHs don't have any other than bubbles and eos heals provided she doesn't get cc'd or killed. being able to 1v1 does not make a class all-round. the damage output is not as high as a dps and really once SCHS have no Aetherflow stacks ofr Energy Drain left, the damage is very low and weak. and in a group setting, healer dps is irrelevant other than being able to miasma-up everything. just as you said, i would agree to cleric being toned down as well, but i don't agree with it being 100% being taken out.

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You are attacking other people based on reason that they haven't tried healer on the Frontline, correct? What about you own profile? It is clearly that you you only tried 2 lvl50 job.

My comment still stands, that is an essay lacking of insights and constructive arguments, ranting at the best. Stop waste your time, if you have a gut, do it:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...neral%29/page3

If you can't do it, ask Kisada to do it, just remind him to take away ranting and makes his question appealing. Type "how to make argument appealing to others" on the google if you need.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

Picture is more true than most thing and all I say in reply is:
http://i57.tinypic.com/1zoz0n7.jpg

Underline problem is many people suffer rational ignorance? If so then really time wasted. I would have give up actually but you have post many explanation so I try to help explain too since I understand where you come from in your viewpoint. :cool:

But if really so many do not bother to learn then I agree with you since not everyone can be logical. :rolleyes:
Very wise saying, thank you for remind.

I do not think even they will ask Producer and will just make more thread for complain, make me wonder what happen in 2.4.

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Selective hearing is amazing. Read OP and last 2 pages is also fantastic. This is why most of threads on this Fourm end up with ranting.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

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My comments hardly compare to his in length. My comments are also in a readable format that can be understood by the majority of the people in these forums. Also, why are you assuming I haven't done SCH on FL or Wolve's Den? Btw I'm not attacking people, just you ^w^ I can forgive many things, but arrogance isn't one.

You have more of a selective hearing problem than I do, because your opinion is all that matters apparently. As I pointed out, it was various reasons that brought about the removal of Cleric Stance, as many others did, and I argue that in loo of taking time to sort the real problem out, SE just flat out gimped certain aspects of the game.

I've stated my argument, you just refuse to acknowledge it. Your condescending tone is rude and simply childish. And I will post in that question thread you linked. I will place my argument there and i'm sure it will be more readily acknowledged than your one-man crusade to be a total ass and try to say people's opinions don't matter.

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Originally Posted by Nekomataempusin

I've stated my argument, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

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I am so glad that this Fourm allows you to recall post history:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/s...rchid=25094864

Let's see your point of entry into this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Nekomataempusin

Both of you need to stop talking. I'm a WHM and I see the long scale ramification of this.
Copestetic; Your sarcasm is not needed nor wanted. As many people have pointed out, SCH does not heal as strongly as WHM because they are a hybrid class of DPS and Heals. Also, what happens when all those PvP skill that take off debuffs instantly are used up and recharging? Any healer would be screwed because interrupts are going to assail them.
Lucke Arrayo; You are a tank. If you do not play a healer class you do not understand the shit we put up with. While we are on the subject, how about you tanks ONLY tank.
If a healer is backed into a corner, be it WHM or SCH, and they keep getting interrupted and all their PvP skills/Fixes for debuffs are used up, do you HONESTLY think they will survive? No. Do not insult the intelligence and valid concerns of those who this affects most of all.

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Word to word. You told two posters to shut up because of what? You are a healer? What is your second post? Alright, told another poster to shut up because he is not a healer (but ignored the fact this one is sitting on WHM).

The rest of posts are just bunch of non senses. Even have to drag Kisada to this because you don't have an argument of your own. All you have been saying is no one should talk because they are not healer, but when healer players are saying cleric stance nerf is fine. Your selective hearing ignored them.

Let me spit out for you since you don't get it. I am referring your issue as because you have only tried healers on the frontline, you are unable to understand other jobs' perspective.

Stop dodging the bullet. Are you going to do open letter or not?

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Stop dodging the bullet. Are you going to do open letter or not?

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Already did. In response to you're little criticism, those two were being stupid and rude over opinions that didn't mesh with their own. I called them out on it.

By the by, I've talked to people who play other classes in Frontlines. I ask questions in game when they come to mind, and I learn how to work with other classes to get the desired outcome. I've played BRD in PvP and understand how much of a target they can be since range is a pain in the ass to deal with (SMN is ranged as well). And yet though I know things, there are still some aspects I would be ignorant to. Mayhaps your experience as a BRD varies from the ones I encounter, both on my team and against. They have held up on their own very well when in placement and also in 1vs1 scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Nekomataempusin

Already did. In response to you're little criticism, those two were being stupid and rude over opinions that didn't mesh with their own. I called them out on it.

By the by, I've talked to people who play other classes in Frontlines. I ask questions in game when they come to mind, and I learn how to work with other classes to get the desired outcome. I've played BRD in PvP and understand how much of a target they can be since range is a pain in the ass to deal with (SMN is ranged as well). And yet though I know things, there are still some aspects I would be ignorant to. Mayhaps your experience as a BRD varies from the ones I encounter, both on my team and against. They have held up on their own very well when in placement and also in 1vs1 scenarios.

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Good. This is more productive, but I suggest you to edit wording a bit. It is still sound a little ranting.

Everyone has different online gaming experience. While many are criticizing Flames performance, hey are aggressive in my game. You can not rely on the words of others. You need to actually play it to understand. It is a bad idea to sit on one job, this is armoury system, try other jobs to find out why they think SCH and WHM is too much of their role.

I shall be posting according to the para, in red, as it comes up for reading.

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Originally Posted by Nekomataempusin

At this point I think you are just arguing for arguments sake.

Also, if YOU bothered to look at my profile, which I'm sure you did, you would remember that I have multiple classes leveled. I have experience playing classes aside from SMN/SCH. I have played WHM on FL. You're just looking for ways to try and pick apart things people say now.

May I kindly remind readers and posters alike that FF14 is a game. Games are meant to be played for enjoyment unless it is a profession, of which, most are not. Having many classes in a game only tells me how much of real time a person has to kill. I'm speaking for myself as well, since I do have many classes as anyone can easily verify.

Also, what Kisada said was common knowledge. The people who are ignorant on how to optimize their class complain that something is "OP" when they are able to not be raped by their DPS onslaught. Also, it was very clearly a poor and lazy decision to remove CS rather than adjust some things and letting it alone.

Question : how is removing cleric stance a 'poor and lazy' decision?I am not a game programmer or any IT techie in my profession, but I do know that any decision to change any aspects of game play, IS NEVER lazy nor poor; since poor is hardly an accurate word to describe a game play decision. ANY business decision is never easy and if it involves game play, would have been discussed in their back room thoroughly because the developers are Asian, and being Asian, they are generally not in favour of making drastic changes preferring to stick with what works.

And yes, there is a lack of healers issue that is starting to inflict FL. Immortal Flames has it the hardest.

Gamers tend to whine a lot and expect nerfs or buffs, because it IS the easier way out when compared to working around the fresh hurdle and learning to get better. When one plays with less, one tends to learn more - which also applies to real life. We do not give out answer keys, to facilitate learning in schools. Thing is, people don't like change that creates a new unfamiliar environment for them instead of taking it in their stride and learning again. Hey, if anyone is that good, this game will just be a game we all will log into, to kill time and there will be less mindless arguments in the forum but more constructive ones.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

You are attacking other people based on reason that they haven't tried healer on the Frontline, correct? What about you own profile? It is clearly that you you only tried 2 lvl50 job.

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Yeah Gor how dare you have all your casters leveled and use SCH in PvP in order to provide valid and credible feedback to a PvP forum about healers. Shame on you.

Like wtf Saviour lol

My response in red for easy reference.

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Originally Posted by Nekomataempusin

My comments hardly compare to his in length. My comments are also in a readable format that can be understood by the majority of the people in these forums. Also, why are you assuming I haven't done SCH on FL or Wolve's Den? Btw I'm not attacking people, just you ^w^ I can forgive many things, but arrogance isn't one.

And by that para, can I then assume you are not arrogant? Just because most choose to use American English, doesn't mean, that its the perfect English version. Pray tell, are you able to comprehend and infer what I have written so far?

You have more of a selective hearing problem than I do, because your opinion is all that matters apparently. As I pointed out, it was various reasons that brought about the removal of Cleric Stance, as many others did, and I argue that in loo of taking time to sort the real problem out, SE just flat out gimped certain aspects of the game.

Just because 1000 people say so, doesn't make that a fact. It could even be propaganda, crafted to seem that way for personal agenda, in this case, to take the easy way out and 'riot' against a new standard. Let me give you an easier way out - quit.After all, in the past weeks, we have seen real people quit their citizenship - it is sadly a new lifestyle that many prefer to adopt, instead of working with what you have. There are studies on gamers, because this same group, allows behaviourists insight into the mind of individuals who jump ship. Are they wrong? Look at the current news today - the answer is right there! An argument is only good, with facts, not whining, but facts. When you learn that skill, then your posts will become constructive and not destructive. The statistical table that was linked, is actually impressive. That took time and interest to generate. That is factual therefore constructive. But instead of appreciating a summary and debating on the numbers, the discussion has taken on the tone of personal attacks. BUT I understand your culture, you can do it, but others can't. Now, what is that English word/phrase to define that parameter of behaviour? I wonder.

I've stated my argument, you just refuse to acknowledge it. Your condescending tone is rude and simply childish. And I will post in that question thread you linked. I will place my argument there and i'm sure it will be more readily acknowledged than your one-man crusade to be a total ass and try to say people's opinions don't matter.

Excuse me, you are not childish right? You label forum posters you do not know in person, plus you have no idea of their culture and that is mature? To me, it is not unexpected of a person like you to have done that. However,I have jumped in, because I do not appreciate pot calling the kettle black.

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My reply in red.

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Originally Posted by Nekomataempusin

Already did. In response to you're little criticism, those two were being stupid and rude over opinions that didn't mesh with their own. I called them out on it.

wow, name calling again. Do you even know the meaning of the word 'stupid'? So again, its FINE when you do it, but it's not kosher when someone else does it. What does the English speaking world call that? Two-faced? Double Standards?

By the by, I've talked to people who play other classes in Frontlines. I ask questions in game when they come to mind, and I learn how to work with other classes to get the desired outcome. I've played BRD in PvP and understand how much of a target they can be since range is a pain in the ass to deal with (SMN is ranged as well). And yet though I know things, there are still some aspects I would be ignorant to. Mayhaps your experience as a BRD varies from the ones I encounter, both on my team and against. They have held up on their own very well when in placement and also in 1vs1 scenarios.

Clap Clap! Give yourself a pat on the back. You are the only person who learns how to work with other classes in the game. Kudos. The rest of the gamers in FF14 do not. BOY, learn how to be a person first. That way, at least your person will not be in a perpetual state of conflict and hopefully you'll actually learn something from your interaction with gamers from a very different part of the world. I have used the word 'hopefully' because generally, people do not change, albeit they may seem to adapt to change in the shorter term. It has to do with predispositions and in a mixer, given living in the real world, acting out in the gaming world, people tend to then loose whatever rational sense they actually had at first. It is far easier to immerse ourselves in a make believe world, isn't it? Where we don't have to be really accountable for the rudeness we spread to strangers.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Selective hearing is amazing. Read OP and last 2 pages is also fantastic. This is why most of threads on this Fourm end up with ranting.

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OP do not seem as bad as all current day ranter.
Would be easy to discuss gearwork and other thing if people give example? I was wonder why NA section mostly do not have reply or is last to get any reply, only will know when immerse self in environment. Many talk in hypothetical and make many assumption.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Yeah Gor how dare you have all your casters leveled and use SCH in PvP in order to provide valid and credible feedback to a PvP forum about healers. Shame on you.

Like wtf Saviour lol

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I do not want disagree with you but Gor not actually very convincing some time because his choice of word make him seen as very special player?
I say this with refer to many of his post where he say other player not good enough but at certain time have go out of hand in his comment and make him look like more negative and unwilling to adapt.

This further proven when he boycott game and say he have not play for his reasons but on the forum still? My understanding is if you do not want to play game and very upset with developer decision in way Gor has voice many of his opinion, he should not be in forum commenting still? His comment have been more negative in passing day than initial day.

Am I right to say this?
His behavior easily constitute as illusory superiority and his opinion might become voided as result of his wording sometime.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

I do not want disagree with you but Gor not actually very convincing some time because his choice of word make him seen as very special player?

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/jazz hands

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

I say this with refer to many of his post where he say other player not good enough but at certain time have go out of hand in his comment and make him look like more negative and unwilling to adapt.

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well its true. most other players are not good. sorry if that bothers you, but i'm not going to sugarcoat it. and the reason most players in this game are not good is because i believe it is like i said before, SE panders players and does not let them "mature" or allow them to get better as players. SE coddles them by putting out easy pve content and that goes for tanks, dps and healers alike. so they come into pvp expecting the same outcome of just trying to zerg down players like they zerg down the weak bosses they kill, they get #rekt, then come in forums and cry about how op X class is. so most the players are lazy. they don't cross classes, alot of them only have one class. i've had people ask me where do they get their pvp skills from? i've been on FL teams where healers go splat in 2 seconds, even other SCHs. i always see BLMs in arena who don't use Nightwing. Paladins who I have stood beside while i'm getting pummeled, i ask for Testudo or Cover ... most PLDs, not a Testudo or Cover was given that day and i can go on and on with all the other countless nonsense i see most players in pvp doing. however the good players, stand out and i know they will be on point every game. i know i will get a Testudo or Cover. i know i (or the other healers) will get peels. i know that healer won't die, etc and its the same about 20 people on my data center every single time who know their class and it shows. but for those who don't know their class, SE offers no incentive, no perk or anything to entice players to get better at their class, they just spoonfeed the bad by altering the content thus contributing more to their laziness.

and you mean ... unwilling to bend over? there's a difference.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

This further proven when he boycott game and say he have not play for his reasons but on the forum still? My understanding is if you do not want to play game and very upset with developer decision in way Gor has voice many of his opinion, he should not be in forum commenting still? His comment have been more negative in passing day than initial day.

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incorrect. i am not boycotting the game, the game is boycotting me. i don't logon because i got tired of logging in to play only having to wait 2-3 hours to even actually play. i only do pvp, i have no interest in pve, and since WD is dead, i only queue for FL which often times ends up in being over an hour to even as high as 5 hours i have waited for a queue pop. waiting that long just to play a game is insanity so i no longer login to play. and with SCH now being so boring and streamlined now, and the utter fails who have swamped Maelstrom causing us to lose time and time again, game after game, there is no incentive for me to play anyway. occasionally i have logged on only because my friend asked me to play with him. i am still on an active sub however but with ArcheAge, Diablo III and upcoming Warlords in WoW coming up, i have devoted most of my time prepping to those now, ya know, since i can actually login and ya know, play the sub that i paid for unlike this game where i just pay to wait.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

His behavior easily constitute as illusory superiority and his opinion might become voided as result of his wording sometime.

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this isn't me being superior, it is the state of the playerbase in pvp on my data center Primal. period and it pisses me off.

What pops into my head reading this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

snip or whatever the cool thing to replace quotes with is now

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Not really saying I agree with everything any person is saying. I'm just highlighting someone trying to attack another person's credibility and failing hard.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Not really saying I agree with everything any person is saying. I'm just highlighting someone trying to attack another person's credibility and failing hard.

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Emmmm, if the is about me.... Isn't it he is attacking others by profiling them as non healer first and I counter him with his own profile?

Except Gor is a healer, and doesn't only have two classes leveled like you said.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Except Gor is a healer, and doesn't only have two classes leveled like you said.

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Pretty sure I had few heated conversation with him, but if you are holding a solid argument, he won't selective hearing at least.

Tho, I do feel his dedication towards scholar often clouded his judgement.

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Originally Posted by Gor

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Please do not mistake my intention, I was not refer that you actually egocentric as person. I only state what you sometime can come off as in general view because of choice of word.
Please excuse me if I was rude.

I know you do not sugarcoat word because you sometime very straightforward. Sometime really not good player will criticize healer and make many noise which is their fault, we have both see this in past threads include Aetherflow thread.

I tell you before in other thread, yes?
We both agree many player lazy and do not play game properly. I see your example you give with nobody help you because I take your word before.
People is lazy and make game unplayable for you.

When I say you come off as maybe better than other or you special player, is from people who do not read past reply or first time see your reply in current day where you very frustrated. Some people do not read all reply, am I right to say this?
Some time when see you make singular post about many bad player, will say maybe you very arrogant because see many mention of how everyone else very bad?

If never read your past replies, will not know your problem with such player or how such problem start in first place.

That is what I refer to.
Never say you actually is this way, just reference Divine say before where many never look at big picture after long time or have selective hearing, only what they want to see or what they see at first. People could do to you because of your choice of word when sometime you really make sense? This happen before with other poster if I not wrong.

But is not how I personally feel about you. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Klive

What pops into my head reading this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

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I do not think this is true? If this is link because I mention illusory superiority then you are refer to Gor? Gor do not suffer from such thing. This have 1 important trait in people who suffer it effects? I do not see such trait in anyone here. :rolleyes:

should of just imo nerfed it down, maybe get rid of the 10% bonus, apart from that youre relying on INT values which are normally not on your gear anyway so youd do not so much damage but enough to fend yourself.

Probably completely pointless to discuss this here, but I'm really wondering if giving scholar a slow on Misama 1 would be overpowered. As it stands, I can defend myself, but it's honestly not even worth trying. I can kill those who try to kill me, but it takes forever, and it requires far too many cooldowns. Players know this, and proceed to try chase me down endlessly while I try get back to my party. At this stage, with our DPS potential cut down by more than 50%, the slow effect wouldn't be anywhere near as overpowering. It would just be a means to slow attackers, so we can get back to our party.

In group vs group mechanics, your galvanize shield fades so fast, that if you sacrifice a shield in order to slow a lone attacker, you deserve the reward, especially considering we do have a multi target CC that is of more use in large encounters. I feel it wouldn't be overpowering to get back our single target slow (2.5 second cast), but I could be wrong.

Misama's disease effect does not spread through bane, so no AOE slows to worry about. Misama 2 can not be changed, would obviously be extremely overpowered with heavy.
The heavy effect should only be applied to scholars Misama. Summoner with a heavy would be too much. This seems like it would be too difficult for them to implement, so it will most likely never happen.

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Originally Posted by Silverharp

pussy

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My sentiments exactly.

All I can see is that since this restriction was added, healers are much rarer in Frontlines...I still queue as healer, but most times I'm stuck as the only one in the party, which more often than not results in no heals for anyone, since maybe one in five of my attempts to cast ANYTHING will actually go off due to even a stiff breeze being capable of interrupting me.

Losing cleric stance would be fair if I could actually heal worth a damn, but unless they either bring it back or make it harder to interrupt my spells, Frontlines will lose one more healer as soon as I'm high enough to use those glamour items. Surecast (1 spell every thirtyseconds) and Equianmity (Fully levels, 15 seconds every 2:20 minutes) definitely don't cut it, especially since bother of those STILL allow for interrupts under certain circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Lukha

All I can see is that since this restriction was added, healers are much rarer in Frontlines...

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This problem is gonna get compounded after the update hits and regen/medica II no longer stack (stack as in multiple regens/medica IIs). Also changes optimal make up in parties in that you probably dont wanna have more than 1 whm in a party anymore. Just carry 1 whm and have any other healer in party be sch orly.