Don't be "that DPS"

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Hate is a group effort, anyone who has a clue about how to work as a team will already know this and I don't care how bad ass you think you are if you're constantly pulling hate and making your healer and tanks life more difficult then you're a bad DPS. Sure the tank might be bad too but that's no excuse.

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Wow, this one gets it.

Good answer to the "it's the tank's job to clean up after me" attitude of yet another lazy, irresponsible DPS.

I actually think these clowns should spend some time playing a tank. Certainly I wouldn't expect them to learn much. That requires responsibility, and insight, which they lack. That's why they are DPS in the first place. But at the minimum they could transfer some of the (granted, small amount due to their limitations) gained knowledge of what it's like being a tank---> over to their job as DPS.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

The only problems I have are slow tanks taking each mob group one at a time (4 pulls from honeycomb to honeycomb I'm looking at your Arboretum).

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Here's an easy solution: Play the tank yourself. Then you can go at whatever pace you want.

Protip: You will find that your pace will be more determined by your group's capability than by your own personal needs and wants. But then, only tanks and sometimes healers understand such limitations. DPS can be carefree, lazy, and never worry about such things except to rail on the tank or healer that isn't going fast enough for their armchair-quarterbacking selves.

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Originally Posted by Februs

You said that you have to swap around 50% of the mob's Hp. By that time the Tank should have at least used more than one AoE threat generating move or flat out rotated an enmity strike to the target you are swapping to. Crisis averted. The only problems are when Dps start their rotations on separate targets, or if the target you are swapping to is one that the Tank has not yet landed a hit on. Swapping targets is fine, but you should be conscious of how much hate the tank has on the target you are planning to attack. Carelessly going after the target that has the least threat gen from the tank is irresponsible, especially when there are other mobs with higher enmity in the group that you could have switched to.

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I'm gonna be honest with you here, Februs: What you just said would require thought, consideration, and mindfulness by a DPS. That's harder to find than a virgin at a bar.

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Originally Posted by nitaZ28

Good answer to the "it's the tank's job to clean up after me" attitude of yet another lazy, irresponsible DPS.

I actually think these clowns should spend some time playing a tank. Certainly I wouldn't expect them to learn much. That requires responsibility, and insight, which they lack. That's why they are DPS in the first place. But at the minimum they could transfer some of the (granted, small amount due to their limitations) gained knowledge of what it's like being a tank---> over to their job as DPS.

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Good answer for someone who doesn't get how teamwork works.
"Let's make DPS understand Tanks, but let's not make Tanks understand DPS. It's always DPS's fault."
You can't just flip everything on DPS just because they're not tanks.
Everyone has their own responsibilities. Sure the other can help in some way but ultimately your responsibilities are your own.

What about when a tank refuses to use AoE, doesn't mark a thing, and switches targets every 2 seconds to fast blade one thing, savage blade another, rage of halone another after that and fast blade the first one again? That's ineffective vs. a DPS who is attacking whomever the tank attacked first and to DPS who frequently AoE. Nobody's going to guess every 2 seconds, that lack of focus and leadership leads to chaos on its own. But of course lets blame DPS for what the tank did not do to easily prevent that mess. It's almost if not just as bad as saying it's DPS's fault for not being able to get their positionals while the tank is randomly and constantly spinning the mobs.
Oh wait, I bet you wanna tell the summoner to wait before taking the time it already takes to set up their DoTs, even though by the time you get to level 52 you ought to be used to lobbing from a distance and flashing when you get close by then. And don't you lie to me about how that doesn't happen. And if you've been starting pulls with provoke, then it's not them who's the problem, YOU are the problem. Provoke does nothing when nobody has threat, which means even a card or eye for eye will draw attention.
It's extremely irresponsible to not mark and expect them to attack your targets, especially when you constantly switch targets or if the first one dies, at which point is resolved by using AoEs like you should have in the first place. That doesn't mean you can't expect them to not attack the bees first and other similar targets of priority.

What about when a tank comes there underpowered? Are you really going to conform to the tank's low standards when a piercing talon does as much threat as the tank's shield lob? How is that really fair, fun, or nice to DPS to blame them for coming there even barely prepared unlike the tank?

That's among other things by the way.

Obviously I have to mention when some hardcore hubris twit gives you a hard time. But I'm not because there's more important things to worry about that those worthless twits.

Hate is the tank's responsibility. This isn't an equal effort for threat, you most of all have to have the most threat. You have the tools, the multipliers, and the options to make it happen when DPS has none of that, and healers do 1/2 threat with healing. And the only times it's the DPS's fault is if they attacked during long pulls, somehow ruin pulls before any real fighting start, pull before tank pulls, attacks the wrong targets when marked and I mean single targets, if DPS fail to beat mechanics they are responsible for, fail to evade which causes problems for all of you, die excessively which causes problems for all of you, among other things.

By the way, as a main tank player in this game. It's easy. All you have to do is strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash. Flash does not interrupt combos, so it is a constant stream of threat and blinds. None of this complicated fake junk that the meta might have you believe. It's not even complicated to see that having to compete with DPS who are better geared than you will be a you problem YOU have to deal with as well. Easiest solution to that is to invest in some strength until you get better gear, and a lot of those threat problems will be go away. You got the time and space to shield lob, circle of scorn and flash before any good DPS hammers them.

DPS has to deal with timers, delays in their own moves, random procs, positionals, every new wrench to their long list of chores to deal high amounts of damage, more mechanics than a Tank will EVER be responsible for, being randomly targeted by bosses most of the time, and having to depend on the tank to do their job. But no, let's just pretend DPS is so lazy and free of responsibilities.

The best part about your responsibilities as the tank is so that you can make it easier on them, NOT to be pushing YOUR responsibilities onto them. If you can't understand that, then it won't be a wonder why you struggle to be a good tank or at any job for that matter.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

What part of " . ..for the things you simply can AND refuse to do." do you not understand?

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The part where you make out you take hate all the time on different jobs and blame the tank for it. It's your responsibility too yet you refuse to throttle back, you even apologise if the tank is undergeared meaning you do it to new tanks too. That's a bad DPS. For further information, read my previous post again ;)

Honestly, as a BLM main I could tank as much as I wanted and the tank wouldn't be able to do much about it, especially DF tanks. It's not about me being a bad ass, it's about working together and showing each other a little respect.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

The part where you make out you take hate all the time on different jobs and blame the tank for it. It's your responsibility too yet you refuse to throttle back, you even apologise if the tank is undergeared meaning you do it to new tanks too. That's a bad DPS. For further information, read my previous post again ;)

Honestly, as a BLM main I could tank as much as I wanted and the tank wouldn't be able to do much about it, especially DF tanks. It's not about me being a bad ass, it's about working together and showing each other a little respect.

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No competent tank should lose threat to a responsible black mage.

Being a responsible black mage doesn't mean throttling yourself because everything's orange. It means you you give a few seconds of leeway before going balls to the wall. The only tank that might have an issue with this is the Paladin. Dark Knights and Warriors have no excuse, assuming gear is equal.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

No competent tank should lose threat to a responsible black mage.

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For the most part I completely agree with you, though it's worth pointing out the BLM opener can be pretty spicy and quelling strikes becomes mandatory at some point. The key word for me though is responsible, I was trying to point out that DPS also have a responsibility where hate is concerned. I can't just focus one mob with a RR enhanced Fire 4 rotation in an AoE pull and blame the tank when it causes problems, I can't pick a mob that the tank has clearly not focused on yet and pull it away and blame the tank. When playing my PLD I do see this a lot, in a pull of 3 mobs and both DPS pick a different one to go balls to the wall on, I can always use voke obviously but I'd argue the team synergy isn't exactly brilliant in that situation and could be better. What we end up with is two mobs dying slowly instead of one dying twice as fast, resulting in more work for both healer and tank.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Being a responsible black mage doesn't mean throttling yourself because everything's orange. It means you you give a few seconds of leeway before going balls to the wall. The only tank that might have an issue with this is the Paladin. Dark Knights and Warriors have no excuse, assuming gear is equal.

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I'd say giving a few seconds leeway is throttling back to be honest. The point you make about gear (and skill) being equal is very important, an undergeared tank needs to be treated with kid gloves by a better geared DPS, especially if it's one of the big hitting burst types like BLM. As long as someone meets the minimum ilvl requirement for the instance and is obviously trying then I try to work with them and see their hate level as the ceiling I have to get close to but not go over. That to me is a good, responsible DPS.
I mean sure, I don't like it when WAR's don't use Overpower or PLD's don't flash but the amount of tanks I come across that are that bad are quite rare and I use DF a lot, usually after the first pull (where hate can be a little messy) they get the picture and raise their game a bit. That said I'm not above spreading thunder around before going full AoE if they're really struggling with hate, or even sticking to single target if it's really that bad.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

By the way, as a main tank player in this game. It's easy. All you have to do is strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash. Flash does not interrupt combos, so it is a constant stream of threat and blinds. None of this complicated fake junk that the meta might have you believe.

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For a person who mains Tanking, you don't seem to understand how to use a Pld correctly. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that you just don't use Pld very often ... If ever. I wouldn't worry about it though. These days, most "main tank" players don't use Pld very often, let alone correctly.

In case you're interested though, Flash spamming is not how to tank mobs on Pld. Flash spamming is how you face-roll derp tank on Pld. You'll hold aggro like this, sure, but you are far from optimizing your roll. Flash should be cycled in accordance to the number of mobs being tanked and coordinated with the use of CoS, not just added willy-nilly between each attack. Given that party dps is the responsibility of the entire party, tanking using additional and unnecessary Flashes (which deals a whopping 0 dmg) is actively working against the party. It doesn't interrupt your combo, that's true, but it delays the combo for approximately 2.5 seconds (depending on personal skill speed). That's 2.5 seconds in which the Pld could be applying a DoT (Goring Blade) or reducing incoming Dmg (RoH, which also has the added benefit of having a much higher enmity generation than Flash). The Blind debuff is also wasted, because spamming Flash overlaps the timer of Blind, and Blind is resisted after 3 applications. There's more to it than this, but the short hand is that using additional Flashes past the minimum required is a waste of enmity, dps, and mitigation ... Of course, this would not matter to someone who thinks that the current Tank meta is "complicated fake junk," so I guess I'll just leave it there.

That aside, I do find it strange that you seem to have such difficulty with monitoring enmity, especially for someone who supposedly mains a Tank. Last I checked, the enmity meter is view-able to every player who is in combat, regardless of them being a tank or not. So, I'm not sure where all this guess work is coming in for you. I mean, the enmity bar is even colour coded for ease of use and convenience, and it's not like swapping targets is all that difficult. Pressing Tab or cycling on a D-pad seems pretty straight forward and doesn't throttle back a player's Dps at all. Given that maximizing party Dps is the sole responsibility of the Dps (something you seem to be advocating strongly), I would have thought that knowing how to cycle targets fluidly for proper DoT and Buff/Debuff applications would have been an essential skill for a Dps player. At the very least they might want to avoid accidentally turning a mob by stealing enmity and losing out on those positional potency bonuses you mentioned. I did not realize that it was so much harder for them to manage that ...

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

What about when a tank refuses to use AoE,doesn't mark a thing, and switches targets every 2 seconds to fast blade one thing, savage blade another, rage of halone another after that and fast blade the first one again? That's ineffective vs. a DPS who is attacking whomever the tank attacked first and to DPS who frequently AoE.

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DPS should not blindly assist tank. Depending on the tank class, most are gonna be switching around. Especially on PLD.

It's simply a more efficient use of your resource to be landing your chain enmity skills on extra mobs (as possible, depending on the status of aggro on central target) than it is to be using your AoE enmity generators.
Poor resource spending isn't always a visible thing, and may not matter depending on gear/levels vs. content. But when it DOES matter, it matters a LOT. It can be the difference between comfortably controlling a bad situation or extended fight, or your group getting wiped.

That's not to excuse the tank that isn't telling his DPS who the central target is (via marks is easiest), or isn't remaining aware and alert about the status of aggro on that mob.

When tanking, I prefer to make it as idiot-proof as possible for the rest of the group. Years of experience at this has taught me. Running a group, especially after the invention of the "dungeon finder" system for MMORPGs, is a lot like herding cats.

If I had a nickel for every time the mob marked with the big "1" over it's head was the LAST MAN STANDING? I'd be running for PoTUS.