Dark Knight Megathread

Gotcha, I misinterpreted "MP refreshing statuses have no effect" as you couldn't regen MP at all so I thought maybe you had to flip it off occasionally.

To my original point though, I think it could be interesting to make Darkside something that increases your damage for a short amount of time and you have to figure out how to best take advantage of it. Can't say what it would look like exactly or if it would necessarily be better than just keeping Darkside as a maintenance buff but it'd be an option.

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Originally Posted by Nosaji_

I think a second combo finisher would vastly improve the downtime, I haven't put any thought into this so I'm sure there's glaring flaws in it, but something like replace Syphon Strike with Spinning Slash, and then bring back old Delirium or something as a finisher that gives MP, while keeping Souleater as the higher damage HP restoring finisher.
I am aware that it'd be likely people would just spam the fuck out of the MP combo to get more Edges for more damage or whatever, but I'm sure they could fuck around with potencies to make the MP finisher low enough that it's not worth spamming it over Souleater- although you'd still need to get Blood from Souleater so maybe that's not really a concern.

My intention is that you'd have to actually be careful with your MP spending and plan ahead with what combo you're going to do. MP finisher would probably need to restore more than 600mp though, since it's not the 2nd action in your only combo like Syphon Strike is rn.

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I can see this working assuming the MP restore combo is weaker than the Souleater combo. It might also require messing with Blood Weapon, MP costs, MP generation, how much Darkside you get from Edge of Shadow, etc... to make it all work but I'd imagine it's doable.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

Gotcha, I misinterpreted "MP refreshing statuses have no effect" as you couldn't regen MP at all so I thought maybe you had to flip it off occasionally.

To my original point though, I think it could be interesting to make Darkside something that increases your damage for a short amount of time and you have to figure out how to best take advantage of it. Can't say what it would look like exactly or if it would necessarily be better than just keeping Darkside as a maintenance buff but it'd be an option.

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I'ts bcs in those days there was external MP generation sources like Mage ballad from Bards and i think MCH had something similar, at least i think it use to have it on SB and BLM could donate some MP too, and the description apply on your natual MP generation wich was complety stoped and you could only generate MP from skills and several buffs of your own kit to counter the MP drain you have on HW, it was removed on SB and only prevent you from generate MP from natural tics when activated.

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Originally Posted by Runeslayer

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Good thing this isn't the SAM subforum.

Absolutely none of the changes that you're suggesting mandate a rework. One of them isn't a job change at all - there are multiple gish jobs at this point that utilize both Weaponskills and Spells, and unifying that system against the existing stats is a Battle System change. Most of the remainder fall under the category of nice, but not really essential. Dark Mind is pretty powerful because it's on a 60s recast compared to the like of Camo and Thrill's 90s. Would you give up the recast advantage in order for the action to be more versatile? I think the answer depends on what kind of a player you are. If you're only doing dungeon content on DRK, perhaps you might look enviously at an action like Camo. If you're doing raid content as well, you might have a more balanced viewpoint on it.

From the sounds of it, you want a rework but you don't know what it's for. And that's a dangerous mindset to get into, as history has shown. As I suggested earlier, the goal right now should be looking at how expansion abilities can enrich DRK's gameplay, rather than finding ways of scuppering the job when it's finally in a half-decent place. And I think one of the most useful things to address is the fact that this job is currently very light in the GCD department.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Good thing this isn't the SAM subforum.

Absolutely none of the changes that you're suggesting mandate a rework. One of them isn't a job change at all - there are multiple gish jobs at this point that utilize both Weaponskills and Spells, and unifying that system against the existing stats is a Battle System change. Most of the remainder fall under the category of nice, but not really essential. Dark Mind is pretty powerful because it's on a 60s recast compared to the like of Camo and Thrill's 90s. Would you give up the recast advantage in order for the action to be more versatile? I think the answer depends on what kind of a player you are. If you're only doing dungeon content on DRK, perhaps you might look enviously at an action like Camo. If you're doing raid content as well, you might have a more balanced viewpoint on it.

From the sounds of it, you want a rework but you don't know what it's for. And that's a dangerous mindset to get into, as history has shown. As I suggested earlier, the goal right now should be looking at how expansion abilities can enrich DRK's gameplay, rather than finding ways of scuppering the job when it's finally in a half-decent place. And I think one of the most useful things to address is the fact that this job is currently very light in the GCD department.

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Again you're misunderstanding and misconstruing what it is I'm advocating for. Because everyone around is clamoring for a rework, you're dumping what I want into the same category. What I want is the annoyances and nitpicks of the job reigned in BEFORE we can start talking about the direction DRK should go in, tying up loose ends. Are they nice changes? Yes, that's exactly the point. On Dark mind, just because the raiding scene finds more use of it does not mean that there isn't an issue with how it interacts with the game-- that being there's still no indication that an attack does physical or magical damage; if there is, it's POORLY communicated. You need alternative methods for something the game should be telling it's players. Don't want it changed? Fine, but at least do that much so it's more consistent in how it's used in ALL content.

Nothing else I have suggested should be contentious in the slightest, in fact I would be surprised if you take issue with any of it. But by all means, brush it with a fine comb.

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Originally Posted by Runeslayer

I know for a fact that there are people that are not 'happy' with where DRK is right now. Is it better than it used to be? Gods yes, but these are mere /necessary/ steps that frankly it's insulting it took so long to add to the class, and there are still very VERY basic changes it should receive in order to be set back to zero in serviceability.

This is before even addressing that DRK right now to many players is just that: serviceable. It does its job well enough, it has a place, it hits high rankings, but gods it's like eating oatmeal by itself. It'll keep you fed, but there's no spice and hardly any flavor.

There's nothing that particularly stands out about the job, it's a middle of the road tank that can't decide what it wants to be so it's just a worse everyone at once with little cohesion. I can't stress enough how important cohesion and job feel is, because if it wasn't SAM players wouldn't be so pissed about Kaiten.

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I think that if you're going to take issue with a job's core gameplay loop, then you are obliged to be specific in your feedback. Turning Dark Mind into Rampart isn't going to put 'spice' into DRK. Reducing the acquisition level of Dark Missionary isn't going to give it a defining identity. The reason why complaints like yours are an actual problem is that if the dev team actually decides that the job needs to be reworked but have no useful player feedback on how to do so, we could end up in an even worse state than Stormblood. It's like playing roulette with the job. If you don't know what you want for dinner, stick with the set menu.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that if you're going to take issue with a job's core gameplay loop, then you are obliged to be specific in your feedback. Turning Dark Mind into Rampart isn't going to put 'spice' into DRK. Reducing the acquisition level of Dark Missionary isn't going to give it a defining identity. The reason why complaints like yours are an actual problem is that if the dev team actually decides that the job needs to be reworked but have no useful player feedback on how to do so, we could end up in an even worse state than Stormblood. It's like playing roulette with the job. If you don't know what you want for dinner, stick with the set menu.

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This kind of feels like being ticked that a customer didn't well enough specify how they wanted their food itself prepared when they've asked merely that it be served on a plate...

All that's ultimately been said so far is that little differences like Dark Mind or Living Dead are not sufficient to form an identity. That doesn't seem particularly controversial. And while I'd agree with you that those small differences are better than none, and so I wouldn't take from their insufficiency that they are disposable, nothing in Rune's posts indicates that they wish only to remove those insufficient bits and stop there; they've made pretty clear that removal would only be done as/if part of a larger cohesive rework. That's very distant from, say, the Stormblood era complaints, each complete in themselves, about "DA spam" or a "lackluster capstone CD" in Delirium.

Over the last few pages, what gameplay loops and considerations would feel most appropriate to or synergetic with DRK's themes has already been in debate. You've suggested a Reaper-esque second combo implementation. Others have suggested a more Huton/Surging-esque second combo. Arch has suggested a many-spender-option Darkside state option in place of a second combo. Others have focused on altogether different areas. Marking a tentative line for how far one feels we ought to go before we can remotely pat ourselves on the back does not make one suddenly responsible for coming up with each concrete implementation in that direction. This all still in flux; let it breathe. When Rune has some spitball implementations for us, I'm sure she'll post them and we can then discuss them as a thread as we've done for those before.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

Gotcha, I misinterpreted "MP refreshing statuses have no effect" as you couldn't regen MP at all so I thought maybe you had to flip it [Darkside] off occasionally.

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I think that was true, actually, at least while in combat? If you got an old Ewer card back then while in Darkside (much like a BLM in Astral Fire), it not only wouldn't tick, but it'd count you as immune to receiving the effect altogether, iirc. It's been a long time, though.

I feel like the idea of Darkside as a "disable MP recovery for a substantial boost in damage" effect has been coopted by PLD's Requiescat, in a certain sense, due to how the latter consumes large amounts of MP all at once for a damage burst.
Obviously the mechanics are very different, but the effect on gameplay is generally similar in an environment where external sources of MP regeneration have been removed anyway.

Not that I've seen anyone suggest a return to it in so many words, of course.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think that was true, actually, at least while in combat? If you got an old Ewer card back then while in Darkside (much like a BLM in Astral Fire), it not only wouldn't tick, but it'd count you as immune to receiving the effect altogether, iirc. It's been a long time, though.

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I distinctly remember foolishly Manashifting onto a DRK as a baby BLM who didn't yet understand any other job because I saw their MP had been exhausted, only for them to be Immune to it. Good times.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that if you're going to take issue with a job's core gameplay loop, then you are obliged to be specific in your feedback. Turning Dark Mind into Rampart isn't going to put 'spice' into DRK. Reducing the acquisition level of Dark Missionary isn't going to give it a defining identity. The reason why complaints like yours are an actual problem is that if the dev team actually decides that the job needs to be reworked but have no useful player feedback on how to do so, we could end up in an even worse state than Stormblood. It's like playing roulette with the job. If you don't know what you want for dinner, stick with the set menu.

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Alright, since you're clearly not getting it I'll *try* and spell it out clearly one last time. You continuously think my suggestions are in in regards to reworking DRK, but this is untrue. These are changes I think dark knight should receive before I speak AT ALL about what I'd like to see reworked. Why? Because when that discussion does come up, it's free of the remaining jank DRK currently has, we can set it aside as non factors. What I suggested are supposed to be non-contentious nitpicks of the job that pretty much everyone can get behind; dark mind being the only thing that people will be split on, but I feel there is an alternative with letting it be powerful, unique, and more consistent than it's current iteration after some discussion and brainstorming-- again, I am saving rework discussion for when I actually have ideas, for now I would LIKE to at least have the game inform me what is and isn't magic damage so I'm not throwing caution to the wind on whether or not Dark mind will be effective or useless.

All I KNOW right now is I am not satisfied with the way DRK is now, the core rotation doesn't feel great, I don't feel rewarded for playing 'correctly', and I'm not very motivated to optimize my rotation or get better by the classes own merit. Judging by the likes and lack of rebuttal from that post of mine, it seems it's quite a cold take.

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Originally Posted by Runeslayer

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You said it yourself. You're unable to articulate what exactly it is that you dislike about the job's gameplay loop. And that's perfectly fine. But if most of the feedback we're providing is 'I don't like this job', then you can't really complain when the devs start ripping out core job features to try to make people happy. Maybe they decide that you don't enjoy the oGCDs, and they just remove Edge and Flood, and turn Darkside into a Storm's Eye combo. And then you come back in complaining about how the job 'feels bad' to play and is constantly being simplified. I don't want to see that happen here.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I distinctly remember foolishly Manashifting onto a DRK as a baby BLM who didn't yet understand any other job because I saw their MP had been exhausted, only for them to be Immune to it. Good times.

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Same, but with Astral Fire. I wanted so badly for Manashifting from other casters back onto BLM just after they'd already used Flare to be a thing. Would it be damn powerful, especially in dungeons? Sure. But it'd also require careful tracking on the other casters' part to give the MP to the BLM at the right time anyways.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You said it yourself. You're unable to articulate what exactly it is that you dislike about the job's gameplay loop. And that's perfectly fine. But if most of the feedback we're providing is 'I don't like this job', then you can't really complain when the devs start ripping out core job features to try to make people happy. Maybe they decide that you don't enjoy the oGCDs, and they just remove Edge and Flood, and turn Darkside into a Storm's Eye combo. And then you come back in complaining about how the job 'feels bad' to play and is constantly being simplified. I don't want to see that happen here.

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The problem with the job is that it's too simple...you're spamming a single combo, using Blood moves when ready, and spamming Edge/Flood when you don't need TBN. That's it. There's no complexity, no synergy with the system at all, there's nothing that makes the big hits feel weighty (compared to WAR's Fell Cleaves) or makes it feel like you're actually having to micromanage a bit (PLD, GNB, and even WAR have more complexity). Adding a second GCD combo alone would at least add a little complexity. Making us have to worry about our Darkside timer is another thing that would add some complexity and make it feel like you're actually having to manage multiple things. The vast majority of the oGCDs wouldn't even need to get touched much. The problem with DRK is easy to understand...what's hard is coming up with a solution because there's so many paths you can take the job down to make it better.

I think there's been plenty of concrete and specific feedback to DRK's issues in this thread, if the devs read it and conclude people think the class needs to be stripped down then I would say that's a failure on their end.

One think that has stood out to me is that drk seems to not get nearly as many mitigation options as any other tank. My first concern would be that it needs some form of damage mitigation earlier since dark mind doesn't work for everything only magic damage. My thought goes back to the lore and how it's related to dragoon. Why isn't blood weapon also acting as a self sustain or it have some kind of blood siphon type ability that is similar to dragoon's and other dps abilities to heal on damage to make it feel more unique why not make it an offensive ability that also serves to use the gauge on self sustain with it using the power of darkness to siphon enemies blood? There is a lot about it that I'm sure can use improvement but I think the first priority should be to improve the core job itself with it's mitigation and self sustain to be on par with other tanks. It just doesn't quite seem right that other tanks get more group utility while also having more mitigation and in one case even more damage. One other possibility is why not give dark knight two modes? Give it a dps and a tank mode as it was a dps in ff11. I think that might actually help some for it's identity as well since it was meant to deal a lot of damage and if it doesn't have more utility then pump up the damage or give it more utility is what I'm personally thinking.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The problem with the job is that it's too simple...you're spamming a single combo, using Blood moves when ready, and spamming Edge/Flood when you don't need TBN. That's it. There's no complexity, no synergy with the system at all, there's nothing that makes the big hits feel weighty (compared to WAR's Fell Cleaves) or makes it feel like you're actually having to micromanage a bit (PLD, GNB, and even WAR have more complexity). Adding a second GCD combo alone would at least add a little complexity. Making us have to worry about our Darkside timer is another thing that would add some complexity and make it feel like you're actually having to manage multiple things. The vast majority of the oGCDs wouldn't even need to get touched much. The problem with DRK is easy to understand...what's hard is coming up with a solution because there's so many paths you can take the job down to make it better.

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Indeed.

"Here's a solid enough base, I guess? But we have no ****ing idea what to do with it."

Almost anything could feasibly work, but the hurdle seems huge because those ideas would also have to come up with an anchoring identity / cohesive thread, as the base supplies none.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You said it yourself. You're unable to articulate what exactly it is that you dislike about the job's gameplay loop. And that's perfectly fine. But if most of the feedback we're providing is 'I don't like this job', then you can't really complain when the devs start ripping out core job features to try to make people happy. Maybe they decide that you don't enjoy the oGCDs, and they just remove Edge and Flood, and turn Darkside into a Storm's Eye combo. And then you come back in complaining about how the job 'feels bad' to play and is constantly being simplified. I don't want to see that happen here.

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Unable? No, I simply am not giving feedback in regards to the core rotation of DRK because that is NOT what I am focused on. What I AM focused on are the nitpicks which should have obvious solutions (bring the level range of dark missionary down with heart of light so it's usable in older expac content, change AoEs to weaponskills so skill speed can include them), which have not all been completely ironed out. I am of the mind that those should come first before I sit down and say 'ok, DRK is in such a spot where I can consider in depth exactly what my pain points are with it's overall kit and what I can try to do to fix them to be both engaging and viable', which would take a good amount of brainstorming to get to an agreeable state for most; in the meantime, you have plenty of very interesting suggestions from others in this very thread.

There are very likely not going to be major changes to the job until 6.2 at least, but realistically we likely won't see a rework until 7.0. So why not push for these minor pain points in between where they are far more likely to happen?

You keep thinking my complaints on the core kit are all I'm willing to say of the job from here and expecting the devs to do something with it as if it was meant to be constructive: I am not, I am simply stating my feelings in general. When I DO want to offer suggestions, I will state as such.

But I've indulged you long enough on this matter, you remain convinced I am doing one thing when I am actually doing something else.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The problem with the job is that it's too simple...

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That's part of it from an attack perspective, anyway.

Simultaneously, you have the element that its mitigation style is more difficult than other jobs.
Dark Mind/Missionary have specific use cases, Living Dead still retains the highest demands of any invuln skill, Oblation is an extra oGCD we have to weave on top of TBN for partial value compared to what other tanks get out of their 25s CDs in one click now, and our only healing cooldown is a damage loss to us in single-target (on top of only being a fraction as potent as contemporaries available to other tanks).
This is to say nothing of the intricacies of TBN itself having potential for damage loss, comparing other tanks' on-demands, or how late it (much like GNB) gets many survival tools within the leveling process.

So you have the seeming paradox of the job having the least complicated attack rotation, and perhaps the one with the hardest time surviving at almost every level of content (aside from perhaps synched ShB content), which is arguably more important for a tank. Not incapable of performing the duties of a tank, just... harder on them.
It culminates in taking on a lot of risk, all for the reward of... doing slightly more damage than other tanks during your opener at 90 with an absolutely boring attack combo.

Granted, the damage makes it very attractive from a raiding perspective, but take that singular element away and you have the least attractive tank available.

I'd say the defensive kit isn't really complex as much as it is awkward.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

I'd say the defensive kit isn't really complex as much as it is awkward.

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Honestly, there's a lot of overlap between those in this context.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The problem with the job is that it's too simple...you're spamming a single combo, using Blood moves when ready, and spamming Edge/Flood when you don't need TBN. That's it. There's no complexity, no synergy with the system at all, there's nothing that makes the big hits feel weighty (compared to WAR's Fell Cleaves) or makes it feel like you're actually having to micromanage a bit (PLD, GNB, and even WAR have more complexity). Adding a second GCD combo alone would at least add a little complexity. Making us have to worry about our Darkside timer is another thing that would add some complexity and make it feel like you're actually having to manage multiple things. The vast majority of the oGCDs wouldn't even need to get touched much. The problem with DRK is easy to understand...what's hard is coming up with a solution because there's so many paths you can take the job down to make it better.

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I think that the discussion around DRK's GCDs is reasonable. As I said earlier, we have 4 single target and 3 AoE GCDs. Pretty much all of the action happens through oGCDs. I think that it's reasonable to want a second combo, but if you're introducing it at Lv. 100 it should be something more impactful and more interesting than the standard maintenance combo that most jobs copy paste over at Lv.50.

Complexity and synergy are buzzwords that people throw out there frequently but don't carry any meaning. When you talk about the 'weight' behind hits, that's by and large a hitstop effect - WAR's fell cleave looks more impactful than Bloodspiller, which is why it feels more satisfying to use. Decimate doesn't, which is why Quietus is on a more level playing field. Pretty much all of RPR's animations use varying degrees of hitstop, which is one of the reasons why the job is still overwhelmingly popular despite not being FoTM. I think they realize this and we'll start seeing a lot more moves designed with hitstop in mind.

Pretty much every iteration of DRK has by and large been about unloading a swathe of oGCDs under burst. Part of the reason why Salted Earth is sitting at an odd 90s is just because they don't want to overload you with oGCDs. It's actually easy to make it even more oGCD intensive, all you need to do is increase the rate of MP generation and reduce the potency of Edge/Flood accordingly. But I don't think that would make the gameplay more fun. There are also limitations on how much you can add to the resource management part of the job without simply adding more resource bars. You can only have one on-demand action per resource (for single target and AoE). You can sort of work around this by doing something with the 'Dark Arts' gauge as I suggested with making a second resource-gated combo, but all that does is move DRK into being a three resource system job. Exchanging resources (MP for Blood) is a nice idea, but all this actually does is surreptitiously increase the rate of resource generation, which just translates into more Edge/Bloodspiller spam.

In short, none of this is really new ground as far as discussions go, but most of the changes that you could make would change the job less than you might think. I think a second combo could be really fun, given our paucity of oGCDs. If you did that in 7.x, you'd probably have to spend most if not all of our three new expansion actions to do so (two for single target, one more for AoE unless you pushed that back to 8.x). If you were going to do that, it had better something more interesting than Eye or Goring. It'll of course have hitstop. I think the best way to do it is to actually use Dark Arts as a third resource.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Complexity and synergy are buzzwords that people throw out there frequently but don't carry any meaning.

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Honestly, this just feels like a really cynical commentary about the community (which I think you should dial back because it's peeking out), because those two words... literally do have meaning, provided someone can back them up.

If I said right now, "just have Dark Mind boost your healing gained by some percent and it'll be fine," your response would be that DRK doesn't have enough self-healing to justify that change in direction. That's a discussion about whether things have value within or even directly interfere with other elements of a kit. If I said synergy was "just a buzzword" in just a response I'd be laughed out of the thread.

Likewise, if I said right now, "I have to weave 3 different cooldowns for DRK to get the same protection and sustained survival that a PLD can get just tapping Holy Sheltron," there's a discussion of reward versus gameplay depth and skill ceiling that should be had.

As for "weight", if a skill has a hitstop effect and a flashy animation but still only doles out 150-200p damage (coughAssassinatecough), there's a problem with the actual potency of the effect not justifying its visual performance.
More commonly though, I see this being used when discussing abilities that are culminations of long periods of sustained attack, particularly back when SMN had a two minute rotation just to get to Bahamut back in Stormblood.

Most of the time that I see the word 'complexity' being in discussion, it comes up in the context of dps. My job is more 'complex' than the others, so it should be the top dps by a bigger margin. I've seen this sort of grandstanding for nearly ten years now, and I'm bored of it. It's also foolish and dangerous, because the devs don't respond by giving you more dps. They respond by simplifying your job. We saw this perhaps most famously with 4.2's unga bunga, but there's a lot of this going on in melee dps at the moment as well. It's a nonsense word, and you'll have a lot more meaningful discussions if you expunge it from your FFXIV vocabulary.

I also think that making a job's design convoluted simply for the sake of making it more 'complex' is absurd, and you see no end to this in the well-intentioned but rubbish homebrews that people keep posting in here as potential reworks. Here, click on the link to my new DRK rework spreadsheet complete with MP, Blood, Shadow, and Abyss gauges. It was super amazing to theorycraft in my head, but nobody in their right mind wants to play it in practice. Here, I'll give you something even better to aspire to than 'complex'. Try 'fun'. You can't brag about 'fun' to the 'community'. But you might actually catch yourself enjoying the game.

You'd be surprised at how much of a difference hitstop makes to how players perceive an attack.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I've seen this sort of grandstanding for nearly ten years now, and I'm bored of it. It's also foolish and dangerous, because the devs don't respond by giving you more dps. They respond by simplifying your job. We saw this perhaps most famously with 4.2's unga bunga, but there's a lot of this going on in melee dps at the moment as well.

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Okay, but in this context, we're literally saying the exact inverse -- that the rotation is dull and shallow, despite the fact that it does the most burst DPS, meanwhile our defensives could deal with some simplification. That's... the goal of the last several pages of this thread.

It's effectively the same thing. You're using it as a pejorative without actually thinking about what it means. It's not like you've mastered the extreme limits of all these jobs and have come back unsatisfied in this one specific case.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's not like you've mastered the extreme limits of all these jobs

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Sure, but does only feedback from the people who have matter? Because that's an extreme minority of players you're describing.

I should think if anything, that barrier to entry gives more validity to arguments about "complexity".

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Here, I'll give you something even better to aspire to than 'complex'. Try 'fun'. You can't brag about 'fun' to the 'community'. But you might actually catch yourself enjoying the game.

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Funny, 'cuz last time someone said they didn't find the job fun, you spent multiple pages complaining about them not being specific enough.
... So please, tell us more about what "fun" means.

Because, frankly, all your metacommentary about how other people give feedback wrong can only serve to stifle discussion. Or swerve it, as is happening right now.

I'm not the one making a case on job 'complexity'. You are.

And you are right on one thing, I am trying to alter opinion, to protect a job design that's important to me. I don't want your homebrew.

I enjoy DRK's gameplay as it is. I think that the overall gameplay could be enhanced if a few more GCDs were added for variety in an expansion update. If there was a plan to update all of the unique tank cooldowns (Camo/Thrill/DM/PoA), then I wouldn't mind seeing some additional versatility added to DM in fights where there isn't any significant magic damage. I think that it would be nice if Dark Missionary had something extra to offer to offset its more situational use than Shake/Veil. Am I going to argue those points right now? Absolutely not. I'm not greedy. If the balance shifts, then I'll make a decision and step in as needed.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I enjoy DRK's gameplay as it is.

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And it would appear you're in the minority there, at least in this thread.

And to be clear, broad strokes, "I don't enjoy it as it is" isn't the same as "the job is unsalvageable and bad." It has good points worth preserving, just like it has low points to step away from.

But given you just spent several paragraphs discussing the connotations of "buzzwords" and how the devs react to them, I'm sure you're aware that "I enjoy it as is" can also be read as "change absolutely nothing at all."

Not really. Before the 6.1 change to Living Dead and Blood Weapon, DRK was less represented in Savage than GNB. Now it's more represented (behind only WAR), and it's the most played tank in the current Ultimate. There are plenty of people who enjoy the job. They're just playing the game, rather than posting in here.

And yes, there is absolutely nothing that needs to be done at this very moment. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the job for once now that it's in a very respectable position. There are ways to improve it, but we should be looking to how the job can be improved in 7.x, rather than trying to scupper the job and bring us back to square one again.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I also think that making a job's design convoluted simply for the sake of making it more 'complex' is absurd, and you see no end to this in the well-intentioned but rubbish homebrews that people keep posting in here as potential reworks. Here, click on the link to my new DRK rework spreadsheet complete with MP, Blood, Shadow, and Abyss gauges. It was super amazing to theorycraft in my head, but nobody in their right mind wants to play it in practice. Here, I'll give you something even better to aspire to than 'complex'. Try 'fun'. You can't brag about 'fun' to the 'community'. But you might actually catch yourself enjoying the game.

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It's pretty disingenuous to state that people are giving ideas just for complexity's sake, as far as I can tell people giving suggestions here do have the ultimate goal of making DRK fun. It's not like there haven't been ideas to make it more engaging without turning it into a 300 IQ job either. I like the idea of moving DRK's MP regen from Syphon Strike to a new combo finisher. It's a simple change and could make downtime a lot less tedious since MP regen is now a more active action, all without being that much more complex. At some point though I don't think you can fix the boring downtime without some kind of rework.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

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Most of the rework concepts that I've seen posted in here are pretty atrocious. Even if you're going to fully rework a job, you still have to create something that feels roughly faithful to prior iterations. The instant that you start inventing new resource bars and introducing new edgy mechanic names, ugh, just stop. You're much better off looking at how the existing design can be altered first, rather than trying to take it in a completely different direction.

We've talked about the idea of putting MP and Blood on different combos before, back around Stormblood. The problem is that each resource has a potency value based on the on-demand spender for that resource. In single target, MP has a potency value that you can calculate from the cost of Edge. Blood has a potency value that you can calculate from the cost of Bloodspiller. So I can plug these numbers in and directly compare the effective potency of each combo. And that's a problem, because I'm always going to use the higher potency combo. So if it turns out that the MP combo provides more value, then I'll just use that combo, and spend the Blood from BW either on Bloodspiller or Living Shadow depending on whether it's an odd or even numbered minute. If it turns out that the Blood combo provides more value, then I'm only ever going to use the MP combo if I need to save up to use TBN.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

We've talked about the idea of putting MP and Blood on different combos before, back around Stormblood. The problem is that each resource has a potency value based on the on-demand spender for that resource. In single target, MP has a potency value that you can calculate from the cost of Edge. Blood has a potency value that you can calculate from the cost of Bloodspiller. So I can plug these numbers in and directly compare the effective potency of each combo. And that's a problem, because I'm always going to use the higher potency combo. So if it turns out that the MP combo provides more value, then I'll just use that combo, and spend the Blood from BW either on Bloodspiller or Living Shadow depending on whether it's an odd or even numbered minute. If it turns out that the Blood combo provides more value, then I'm only ever going to use the MP combo if I need to save up to use TBN.

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You would still have to worry about Darkside upkeep though, so the MP combo would be weaker but you also couldn't neglect it or else you end up dropping Darkside.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

So you have the seeming paradox of the job having the least complicated attack rotation, and perhaps the one with the hardest time surviving at almost every level of content (aside from perhaps synched ShB content), which is arguably more important for a tank. Not incapable of performing the duties of a tank, just... harder on them.
It culminates in taking on a lot of risk, all for the reward of... doing slightly more damage than other tanks during your opener at 90 with an absolutely boring attack combo.

Granted, the damage makes it very attractive from a raiding perspective, but take that singular element away and you have the least attractive tank available.

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The funniest part is that the sustain portion can easily be fixed with few changes that don't really change the kit a whole lot. An HoT on Oblation, Dark Mind mitigating 10% of physical damage as well (so it's usable in all situations), maybe cure potency on use of Bloodspiller/Quietus...there's so little the devs have to actually do to fix DRK's ability to survive and bring it on par with other tanks.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The funniest part is that the sustain portion can easily be fixed with few changes that don't really change the kit a whole lot. An HoT on Oblation, Dark Mind mitigating 10% of physical damage as well (so it's usable in all situations), maybe cure potency on use of Bloodspiller/Quietus...there's so little the devs have to actually do to fix DRK's ability to survive and bring it on par with other tanks.

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Or heck, they could bring back older actions like Shadowskin and Sole survivor for the ARR/HW levels. Those levels could certainly use something to help with tanking until you get TBN at level 70.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You're much better off looking at

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It's really hard to take this type of feedback from you as genuine, given that you've admitted your bias towards changing as little as possible about the job.
"You're much better off" reads as a lot of projecting your own desires and preferences onto others and dressing it up as fact.

Now, I will agree that (on paper if not in practice) the devs are more likely to accept feedback that requires as little change as possible for the job, and there certainly are elements of the job that could be addressed with minor alterations, like Ryu said. We don't need to reinvent the wheel just to say that C&S and AD shouldn't be on a shared charge, at least as they are now.
But if part of the argument is that the job has been watered down to the point of losing its own substantial identity and has significant overlap with another in the same role to the point of virtual copy-paste with superficial differences, they're going to continue getting the same feedback until something about its fundamental nature changes.

Much like how consistent feedback for 7 years was that Living Dead was garbage: its nature didn't change, so the feedback didn't either.

Now, that doesn't have to mean a ground-up rework... but it does mean something has to shift dramatically about the basic gameplay, which is an extremely fine line from fully reworking the job (even one that preserves the most popular elements), and heaven only knows where you draw that distinction.

And in the vein of that Living Dead example, in practice, they're more receptive to the idea of a "unique" job nature as a guiding design principle than you might think, given that the "easy" route would have just been to remove the Doom timer and make it essentially Holmgang... and instead they made it even more complicated just to maintain distinction.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

You would still have to worry about Darkside upkeep though, so the MP combo would be weaker but you also couldn't neglect it or else you end up dropping Darkside.

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MP starts at max, so between Blood Weapon and Delirium's MP gain you won't even use the combo for the first few minutes of the fight. And when you do, it'll just be a worse implementation of Storm's Eye.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

????

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This is just flat out bizarre. Yes, everyone in here has a 'bias'. This topic is intrinsically subjective, on whether you feel that DRK's gameplay is so bad that you'd risk playing the rework roulette. You have one too, invested in that rework spreadsheet you keep forcing on to this thread.

The reason why Living Dead was addressed was because it was by far the most requested question in the Q+A, and it had an overwhelming amount of player support behind it. The reason why it had so much support was because the job landscape itself had changed, with several stealth buffs to Holmgang and Superbolide across Shadowbringers into the Media Tour release. People are generally more receptive to buffing a job when it's actually in a disadvantaged state.

Here, if you want to see the world outside your echo chamber, have a look at the comments from this discussion from yesterday on Reddit. The landscape was very different before the Living Dead and Blood Weapon change.

I think if there's something specific about DRK's basic gameplay loop that bothers you, by all means go into it. Like I said before, I think the discussion around a second combo makes sense, but it largely depends on implementation (i.e. we don't need a 'maintenance' Eye/Goring combo just for the sake of being like everyone else).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This is just flat out bizarre. Yes, everyone in here has a 'bias'. This topic is intrinsically subjective, on whether you feel that DRK's gameplay is so bad that you'd risk playing the rework roulette. You have one too, invested in that rework spreadsheet you keep forcing on to this thread.

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They've been different reworks each time, receptive to feedback. And if the majority of players within the thread are of a mind that DRK needs more added to it and we should therefore test out various ideas by which we might provide that, work done in keeping with that popular motive is hardly what would normally be seen as "forced" onto the thread.

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The reason why Living Dead was addressed was because it was by far the most requested question in the Q+A, and it had an overwhelming amount of player support behind it.

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That's not the point of what was stated. The focus was specifically on the fact that they chose not to make the simplest fix of simply removing the Doom state, despite that suggestion having being plenty bandied about, and instead found a similarly unique means of correcting its problem.

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Here, if you want to see the world outside your echo chamber, have a look at the comments from this discussion from yesterday on Reddit. The landscape was very different before the Living Dead and Blood Weapon change.

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Why are we comparing an immunity that was disadvantaged to discussion of a level 70 skill that has not been and still is not disadvantaged as if that the latter was uniquely emptied of concern by the LD and BW changes? Neither of those changes corrected DRK's lack of sustain or the degree to which Oblation fell short of its competitors, both of which remain popular targets for correction in that very thread.

That OP hasn't been starved of wind by changing seasons; their idea was simply poorly aimed from the start, which new viewers tend to become more aware of once a bit more thinking rises to the top of the comments board. The better aimed ideas, you may note, are still rather popular there.

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I think if there's something specific about DRK's basic gameplay loop that bothers you, by all means go into it.

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So long as you continue to treat pointing out a lack of something within that gameplay loop, however particular, as incapable of being valid criticism, that's going to force an very limiting precondition in favor of adding nothing to the job.

If we can only point out what "is wrong" from such a small collection of gameplay elements to begin with, instead of calling out that paucity and suggesting possible corrections to the latter, you're essentially precluding the desires of most here, all while pretending this premise that works to your favor and the expense of others' is merely broadly logical. It's not; there's an entire opposite avenue to work from here. And while the case for questioning "What things should be added?" should always come after "What needs fixing?" the first squarely follows the second here, for this particular job in this particular state, at least as most on this thread appear to see it.

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Like I said before, I think the discussion around a second combo makes sense, but it largely depends on implementation (i.e. we don't need a 'maintenance' Eye/Goring combo just for the sake of being like everyone else).

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No one has posed their idea for a second combo on the basis that we "need" a maintenance combo, specifically, let alone that it must "be like everyone else." Rather, there is simply some interest in using other/more buttons and a maintenance mechanic happens to be a means of providing a soft cooldown that deals with issues of one combo or the other otherwise being the only one worth using. There are of course other means of doing that. A gauge-based builder-spender version, for instance, has already likewise been covered.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You have one too, invested in that rework spreadsheet you keep forcing on to this thread.

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Interesting, after you spent several pages hounding someone for not having any clear ideas on a direction for the job and decrying the dangers of lack of specificity, my offense is that I was too clear and specific about such a direction?
... because I actually hammered one out to illustrate my meaning?
"Damned if you do," it would seem.

Because while you say "forcing" I've barely discussed it unless directly addressed, since I only ever meant for it to be a jumping off point for discussions, for anyone to dissect and run with as they please. And evidently, some people have.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So long as you continue to treat pointing out a lack of something within that gameplay loop, however particular, as incapable of being valid criticism, that's going to force an very limiting precondition in favor of adding nothing to the job.

If we can only point out what "is wrong" from such a small collection of gameplay elements to begin with, instead of calling out that paucity and suggesting possible corrections to the latter, you're essentially precluding the desires of most here, all while pretending this premise that works to your favor and the expense of others' is merely broadly logical. It's not; there's an entire opposite avenue to work from here. And while the case for questioning "What things should be added?" should always come after "What needs fixing?" the first squarely follows the second here, for this particular job in this particular state, at least as most on this thread appear to see it.

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Precisely. The ask here is essentially to prove a negative.

This, like several other sweeping generalizations Lyth has made in the last few pages, is a broad point of argument for such narrow parameters that literally any rework -- ever, for any job -- would be rejected offhand. Most feedback, even.

Not "I disagree with your position on XYZ grounds of practicality," but rather setting such standards for everyone else that "Any position beyond my own is invalid by default."

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Not really. There are quite a few people besides myself who have already pointed out the risks of a rework, earlier in this thread.

As I said earlier, the reason why there was support for BW and LD was because there were actual gameplay problems there that made the job less fun to play. The reason why there isn't the same support for DM or TBN being buffed is because most people can see significant upsides to having those abilities the way they are, and they're more likely to be nerfed in the process of reworking them rather than buffed, as you can see in the thread that I linked. I especially dislike the suggestion that TBN have its MP cost and the Dark Arts mechanic removed and be moved to 25s, as that's a major nerf if you know how to use the ability properly. The discussion around sustain has more to do with role philosophy than job design. I don't see 'self-sustain' as mandatory on tanks because content is designed around having 1-2 healers present. If they decide to move towards an ARPG design, get rid of healers, and give everyone a stack of healing pots and raises then that's a different story.

I can tell that you don't have a point to make whenever you fall back into excessive verbiage, as is your old habit. That second last paragraph would put Urianger to shame. Let me simplify it for you. If you have a problem with DRK's core gameplay loop, by all means, discuss it. There are some things that are common to every iteration of DRK that we've seen so far, though, like a relatively higher oGCD count and layered resource management system currently on the job. So there are some things about the job that you can't change, because they're been a part of the job's identity across several reworks.

If you can suggest a maintenance combo setup that's more interesting than Eye/Goring and their many variants, then by all means. Alternatively, if you come up with a second combo that isn't resource-gated, then I'm all ears.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I can tell that you don't have a point to make whenever you fall back into excessive verbiage, as is your old habit.

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Funny, I was going to say the same thing about ad hominem.

Guys you're getting off track, it is no use criticizing others opinions in such a way. You have a fundamental disagreement (one likes the current design, the others don't) just leave it at that.