fflogs and privacy

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Originally Posted by Valence

That's an interesting slope to follow, I dare hope it's not too slippery. The real question becomes where do you put the line and how many morons are "some morons", and how much of their "moronic" culture spreading is too much, becoming the de facto standard of acceptance that shapes the rules permeating the whole community?

You chose cars and makeshift weapons. Could have also gone for hard drugs on the other end of the spectrum.

Which one is the better analogy here? I don't honestly know, but I'll let you chose.

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I mean, Portugal saw a 75% decrease in drug related deaths after decriminalizing drug possession. It's almost like the answer to a lot of these problems is education and responsible use.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

You can't join [Duty Complete] parties on an alt that hasn't cleared anyway. You have to send the party leader a /tell and say "hi, this an alt. my main is Character Name. is it ok if i join?" and have them invite you.

I don't think the person that you were replying to even thought about their complaint before making it.

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Who is even talking about duty complete parties? I'm talking about week 1 a2c parties. Who is even making duty complete parties on week 1? The only people I can think of are people chasing historical parses because they got a weapon, and those parties wouldn't be taking alts anyway.

Funny you talk about how I don't think when you don't read.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Who is even talking about duty complete parties?

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You were.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Or another example, let's say I clear savage week 1 and want to clear for my alt too, so I join a clear PF and get kicked because I have no logged amount of prog on that character. Does that mean I should go and join prog PFs even though I gain no benefit from it at all?

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You'd just send a /tell saying you're an alt with the name of your main.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

I mean, Portugal saw a 75% decrease in drug related deaths after decriminalizing drug possession. It's almost like the answer to a lot of these problems is education and responsible use.

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Did you read the hard part of the drugs or did you just choose to conveniently gloss over it? Because I'm sure Portugal decriminalized those too am I right?
And then what, we're moving to gun regulation?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Did you read the hard part of the drugs or did you just choose to conveniently gloss over it? Because I'm sure Portugal decriminalized those too am I right?

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Yes, that's my point. Portugal had a huge problem with heroin use in the late 90s, which led to an HIV and AIDS epidemic caused by addicts sharing needles. Decriminalizing drug use made safe use possible and both reduced the number of deaths directly caused by heroin use and also the spread of HIV/AIDS significantly.

Proper education and allowing people to use things responsibly is generally better than criminalizing things and forcing their use to happen in secret behind closed doors.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

This is all true regarding the stalker plugin too. It's fair to say the community has a double standard as to which invasive data collection they find acceptable.

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Nah. The stalker plugin helps you locate someone in-game, no matter which alt or what name/appearance they're using. FFLogs only shows how skilled you are at damage/healing output in the game on each character. It doesn't locate you, it doesn't tell people which alts are tied into one account, nothing like that. The only people who look at it are those who raid. Other than that, the only people upset are generally those who have poor performance but don't have the drive to actually improve.

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Originally Posted by ArtaVallian

Nah. The stalker plugin helps you locate someone in-game, no matter which alt or what name/appearance they're using. FFLogs only shows how skilled you are at damage/healing output in the game on each character. It doesn't locate you, it doesn't tell people which alts are tied into one account, nothing like that. The only people who look at it are those who raid. Other than that, the only people upset are generally those who have poor performance but don't have the drive to actually improve.

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This is what I was replying to ->

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Originally Posted by technole

It's an MMO, your character name and origin is in the network logs if you play with anyone. The only way to avoid is not play with anyone if we really want to honest. If anyone harasses you about such things here on the OF or in-game, it is reportable and it will be dealt with.

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You're right that there are ways FFLogs differs from the stalker plugin but I wasn't taking about those differences, I was talking about these similarities. And how "either log off or report it" is advise used to tackle harassment empowered by FFLogs but not harassment empowered by the stalker plugin. Gaius voice which is strange, is it not.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

since you even didnt die that you are lacking fundamentals of your class.

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In what world does anyone WANT to die during a pull other than for insert random strat for random fights here?

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

But then how would people harass people who don't play up to tHEIR standards?

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Damn u got me there.....

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

I hope you don't have a web browser installed on your PC. And don't you even think about using Google!

That just isn't how that works. The devs have absolutely zero say in whether or not you use a website. If it doesn't directly interact with the game, it isn't a third-party tool. FFLogs is not a third-party tool.

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See u defending third party tool at the end of the day. Did SE officially make the website yes or no???

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

See u defending third party tool at the end of the day. Did SE officially make the website yes or no???

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The implication here is that I'm not allowed to use any software or website unless it was developed by Square Enix. I hope I don't have to explain to you how ridiculous this is.

My mouse, keyboard, monitors, speakers, and microphone weren't made by Square Enix either. Do I need to throw those in the trash too?

Am I allowed to install other games?

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

The implication here is that I'm not allowed to use any software or website unless it was developed by Square Enix. I hope I don't have to explain to you how ridiculous this is.

My mouse, keyboard, monitors, speakers, and microphone weren't made by Square Enix either. Do I need to throw those in the trash too?

Am I allowed to install other games?

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This comment reaks of disingenuous nature.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

This comment reaks of disingenuous nature.

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It isn't disingenuous at all. If it doesn't interact directly with the game, it isn't a third-party tool. FFLogs isn't a third-party tool.

ACT is a third-party tool but FFLogs is not. It's very simple.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

It isn't disingenuous at all. If it doesn't interact directly with the game, it isn't a third-party tool. FFLogs isn't a third-party tool.

ACT is a third-party tool but FFLogs is not. It's very simple.

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Act interacts with FFlogs. Crap runs downhill not being a 3rd party tool won't save fflogs from catching crap. As for 3rd party programs or tools SE only cares about how they interact with the game.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Act interacts with FFlogs. Crap runs downhill not being a 3rd party tool won't save fflogs from catching crap. As for 3rd party programs or tools SE only cares about how they interact with the game.

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ACT doesn't interact with FFLogs in any way, shape or form. The argument that you're making is like saying that heroin is a prohibited substance and you put heroin in a syringe, therefore a syringe is also a prohibited substance.

ACT interacts directly with the FFXIV game client and generates log files. ACT is not allowed.

FFLogs is a website that allows you to upload log files. You can use FFLogs without uploading logs, or you could download a log that someone else has sent you and you could upload that file, without violating ToS.

You're welcome to disagree but you would be wrong. The developers have absolutely no right to police which websites you visit.

You should be a lawyer. You'd fit right in.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Act interacts with FFlogs. Crap runs downhill not being a 3rd party tool won't save fflogs from catching crap. As for 3rd party programs or tools SE only cares about how they interact with the game.

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I play on console, should I get banned if I talk about fflogs without harassing anyone ?

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

I play on console, should I get banned if I talk about fflogs without harassing anyone ?

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Ask the people your talking to cause their ones who could get you in trouble.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

ACT doesn't interact with FFLogs in any way, shape or form. The argument that you're making is like saying that heroin is a prohibited substance and you put heroin in a syringe, therefore a syringe is also a prohibited substance.

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In a world without heroin, syringes can continue to exist and be useful.

In a world without ACT-interacting-with-FFXIV, FF Logs decreases in usefulness to the point of might-as-well-not-existing. FF Logs owes its existence to ACT.

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The developers have absolutely no right to police which websites you visit.

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Sure. But that has nothing to do with a website deciding to anonymize by default information that it obtained, and could only obtain, via ToS-frowned-upon means.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

ACT doesn't interact with FFLogs in any way, shape or form. The argument that you're making is like saying that heroin is a prohibited substance and you put heroin in a syringe, therefore a syringe is also a prohibited substance.

ACT interacts directly with the FFXIV game client and generates log files. ACT is not allowed.

FFLogs is a website that allows you to upload log files. You can use FFLogs without uploading logs, or you could download a log that someone else has sent you and you could upload that file, without violating ToS.

You're welcome to disagree but you would be wrong. The developers have absolutely no right to police which websites you visit.

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I know how fflogs works does not free from its role in this, it should opt-in not opt-out. And devs are not policing the site other then nailing idiots who talk about logs with people who don't want to hear it.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

In a world without heroin, syringes can continue to exist and be useful.

In a world without ACT-interacting-with-FFXIV, FF Logs decreases in usefulness to the point of might-as-well-not-existing. FF Logs owes its existence to ACT.



Sure. But that has nothing to do with a website deciding to anonymize by default information that it obtained, and could only obtain, via ToS-frowned-upon means.

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FFLogs owes its existence to WarcraftLogs. It's a syringe. You can put whatever you want in it.

It might not have anything to do with anonymising the data but it has everything to do with the asinine comment that I was replying to.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

You were.

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You quoted the post and it literally says "clear PF", are you even reading? How would I even join a cleared PF to get kicked in the first place without a clear anyway?

If you want to nail me for something, at least make sure you read properly first.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

FFLogs owes its existence to WarcraftLogs. It's a syringe. You can put whatever you want in it

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It’s pretty disingenuous to try to bend reality to fit your argument. Fflogs expects a certain format and it is far from just a battle log copied out. It is not a generic platform, it is ff14 specific. If you host and design your site around smth that is not legal - no matter if you are not obtaining it yourself - you are part of it. Like it or not. Try host and distribute pirated media and you will find out if you are syringe or have a copyright strike against you.

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

It’s pretty disingenuous to try to bend reality to fit your argument. Fflogs expects a certain format and it is far from just a battle log copied out. It is not a generic platform, it is ff14 specific. If you host and design your site around smth that is not legal - no matter if you are not obtaining it yourself - you are part of it. Like it or not. Try host and distribute pirated media and you will find out if you are syringe or have a copyright strike against you.

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True enough, FFlogs uses telemetry data such as someone's map position to review replays from the logs and this is not obtainable by just looking at the Battle Log, so without ACT it wouldn't have the same functionality at all as Warcraftlogs (where logging is an option that is activated in Settings -> Network -> Advanced Logging, so within the game that doesn't need any addon). Now having said that, FFlogs has been around since 2015 and continually makes references to lodestone to upload a player's profile, so Square Enix has had plenty of time (10 years) to evaluate, and the site is still there so all this talk makes no sense. SE knows very well about logs and parse is fundamental in part of community, paying community like you and me and to think it will close tomorrow because you don't like it is simply unrealistic.

Just had this in Chaotic AR clear party, wiping to enrage. I should be able to find out this information as this is actively griefing players.


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...886790a68fddb&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...a7ade6c83391c&

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Just had this in Chaotic AR clear party, wiping to enrage. I should be able to find out this information as this is actively griefing players.

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Hahaha Holy mother of god.. hahaha.

Still better than that tank I had in p10s one time that was only doing normal attacks. I mean I still appreciate the courage to join and try to do a savage. He became a legend and I will forever tell his tale..

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Just had this in Chaotic AR clear party, wiping to enrage. I should be able to find out this information as this is actively griefing players.

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Holy Hydaelyn, what in the world is that barbaric massacre lmao

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

OFC who thought about it, there is ESOLogs, WoWLogs, the same Site has something for so many MMOs and its accepted everywhere from the playerbase but ofc the Final Fantasy Player are crying yet again about it

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In ESOlogs the name are hidden and anonymous until the player register to the site and gives approval to make the name public.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

In ESOlogs the name are hidden and anonymous until the player register to the site and gives approval to make the name public.

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Now that made me curious. Is ESOlogs also held by the same people, and if so, why the change of mind?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Now that made me curious. Is ESOlogs also held by the same people, and if so, why the change of mind?

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I don't play ESO, so I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that ESOLogs works in an identical manner to FFLogs, i.e. you need to opt out to be hidden, but their damage meter is only able to capture info for players who are also using the damage meter. So you won't have logs if you don't run a damage meter yourself.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

I don't play ESO, so I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that ESOLogs works in an identical manner to FFLogs, i.e. you need to opt out to be hidden, but their damage meter is only able to capture info for players who are also using the damage meter. So you won't have logs if you don't run a damage meter yourself.

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All three logging websites link to the same patreon page. Also if it's true and using ACT is bannable they can't really go for an Opt-in because otherwise everyone who is logging and uploads a log that only has themselves visible in it because everyone else has not opted-in could get banned.

I feel fflogs is being blown out of proportion. Don't want to have your logs visible? Hide them via lodestone. I did. Done and dusted. If someone doesn't want me in a party because they're hidden? No harm, no foul. Not my type of player or vibe to play with anyway.

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Originally Posted by Parona

All three logging websites link to the same patreon page. Also if it's true and using ACT is bannable they can't really go for an Opt-in because otherwise everyone who is logging and uploads a log that only has themselves visible in it because everyone else has not opted-in could get banned.

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Yeah, WarcraftLogs, FFLogs, ESOLogs and SWTORLogs are all developed by the same team. They're essentially just reskins of the same website designed to work with different log formats.

I'm not sure. While ACT is 100% a third-party tool because it has the ability to directly hook into the game client, someone could still make the argument that they were sent a log file which they uploaded, therefore they didn't use a third-party tool themselves. SE can't really make possession of a specific file format against their ToS. They can't police what you have on or do with your computer, only what you do with their game.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I feel fflogs is being blown out of proportion. Don't want to have your logs visible? Hide them via lodestone. I did. Done and dusted. If someone doesn't want me in a party because they're hidden? No harm, no foul. Not my type of player or vibe to play with anyway.

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100% this.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Just had this in Chaotic AR clear party, wiping to enrage. I should be able to find out this information as this is actively griefing players. ...

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If you want to run ACT, upload logs, and have them analyzed... fantastic. You were in those encounters. You know who was there. If you have a "friend" who can look over your shoulder and furiously compile data into spreadsheets, more power to you.

But if you weren't there, or if you weren't the one willing to run the ToS-frowned-upon tool, then you have no reasonable expectation to information obtained via said tool. Ye olde random player ought to be log into the game and not have to worry that such ToS-frowned-upon tools are being used to reveal information that wouldn't otherwise be available. No different from Player Scope, or whatever it goes by these days.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I feel fflogs is being blown out of proportion. Don't want to have your logs visible? Hide them via lodestone.

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Hidden should be the default is the entire point. (Or, well, my entire point, anyway.)

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

If you want to run ACT, upload logs, and have them analyzed... fantastic. You were in those encounters. You know who was there. If you have a "friend" who can look over your shoulder and furiously compile data into spreadsheets, more power to you.

But if you weren't there, or if you weren't the one willing to run the ToS-frowned-upon tool, then you have no reasonable expectation to information obtained via said tool. Ye olde random player ought to be log into the game and not have to worry that such ToS-frowned-upon tools are being used to reveal information that wouldn't otherwise be available. No different from Player Scope, or whatever it goes by these days.



Hidden should be the default is the entire point. (Or, well, my entire point, anyway.)

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The primary difference between PS and FFLogs is that the information obtained through PS doesn't serve any purpose other than making it easier to stalk someone or attempting to interfere with their gameplay while combat analytics are legitimately useful. There isn't any real reason that the buttons that someone is pressing during combat should be private, while I can see a lot of good arguments as to why someone's characters, activity history and retainers should be private.

If someone is worried about being "harassed" using FFLogs, then IDK - maybe they should spend 5 minutes learning how their job works so they aren't so catastrophically bad at the game that they consider the information to be harassment. I'm not sure why we're acting like this is something that people are powerless to change when they have a lot of options.

It's incredibly unlikely that anyone is even going to look at or mention their logs in the first place. On the off chance that they do, if the person doesn't care enough about their performance to spend a few minutes learning their job, why do they care about the logs that are being drawn to their attention? If they do care about the logs, why not just spend a few minutes learning their job? If they want to prevent this unlikely scenario from ever occurring, why not just hide their logs?

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Not at all. All it needs is to anonymize the data. Oh look this parse contains data regarding Blackmage Bob. He did 10k dps in encounter x. But isn't registered on fflogs and hasn't opted in. So now it says "Unregistered Blackmage" did 10k. The data collected is the exact same all that's changed is player names are hidden. Doesn't impact data integrity at all.

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this is true, but i was more referencing the person who said they did not wish to be scanned at all. i understand ppl want to be anonymous and not be able to be looked up. But i personally, (and i know most other raiders do) find hidden logs to be a bit suspicious. Either hiding the fact you arent pulling your weight, or bought clears

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If someone is worried about being "harassed" using FFLogs, then IDK - maybe they should spend 5 minutes learning how their job works so they aren't so catastrophically bad at the game that they consider the information to be harassment. I'm not sure why we're acting like this is something that people are powerless to change when they have a lot of options.

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This exactly this, people dont wanna learn the job or anything but are expecting other people to carry their asses and then cry if someone says something.

I wonder if anyone else is seeing the delicious irony that is that the people who defend the numbers site as a good thing are also usually the ones who clearly demonstrate its misusage.

"People who are scared of logs are clearly bad players who don't know how to play"
"People who hide logs are clear buyers and sandbaggers"
"I will kick players who don't meet my expectations as decreed by the numbers website"
"People who don't have more than 10 clears don't get to join my party"

I don't know how it can be any clearer how widespread the misuse of the website is getting. "Used only for self-improvement", haha, good joke.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I wonder if anyone else is seeing the delicious irony that is that the people who defend the numbers site as a good thing are also usually the ones who clearly demonstrate its misusage.

"People who are scared of logs are clearly bad players who don't know how to play"
"People who hide logs are clear buyers and sandbaggers"
"I will kick players who don't meet my expectations as decreed by the numbers website"
"People who don't have more than 10 clears don't get to join my party"

I don't know how it can be any clearer how widespread the misuse of the website is getting. "Used only for self-improvement", haha, good joke.

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You'd be surprised how many people have their logs hidden but forget to private their achievements on Lodestone and have O4S/UCOB or O8S/UWU cleared for the first time on the same day, lol.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I wonder if anyone else is seeing the delicious irony that is that the people who defend the numbers site as a good thing are also usually the ones who clearly demonstrate its misusage.

"People who are scared of logs are clearly bad players who don't know how to play"
"People who hide logs are clear buyers and sandbaggers"
"I will kick players who don't meet my expectations as decreed by the numbers website"
"People who don't have more than 10 clears don't get to join my party"

I don't know how it can be any clearer how widespread the misuse of the website is getting. "Used only for self-improvement", haha, good joke.

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Is it a misusage when you ask 5/10/20 clears in YOUR pf ? when you ask people to be on a certain prog point ? To know their rotation in savage/ultimates ?

And yes personally (everyone ?) I have a negative opinion on someone hiding their logs (if this person wants do to savages/ultimates)