To be honest, I feel like the only disparity in difficulty where the differences really matter that it starts to feel unfair is SMN, because they have simplicty and are fully mobile over most of their rotation. But SMN also kind of has the issue that it comes off like a level 60 job playing with level 90s in terms of its toolkit. With ranged dps, Bard is kind of an outlier, but the different to Bard and Machinist, who I would rank somewhat equal, aren't as massive.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
Let's redefine "damage taxes"
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10-02-2022, 12:07 AMT-Owl
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10-02-2022, 12:31 AMAikaalSMN is extremely strong at 70 with UCoB. Summoner's core rotation doesn't change starting at 50. They have the most simplistic and frustration rotation. It is really simple but the moment you delay buff windows, Summoners have nothing to make them hold. You either desync your Bahamut or you spam ruin III. It's terrible to the point you can argue optimizing SMN is neither easy nor difficult. It is simply impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Owl
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10-02-2022, 01:00 AMAurora428
SMN was full uptime in Shadowbringers (save for buggy pet pathing). It wasn't "taxed" back then, but suddenly is now when it has extraneous movement that doesn't net them any extra uptime compared to their ShB selves, which was entirely sufficient with little planning.
Is no longer needing to save one charge of egi command moves for movement really worth 600 dps? Just being "easy" is horrible reasoning. -
10-02-2022, 01:57 AMRithy255I don't disagree Red mage isn't what I was generally talking about as you give up a lot having to be at melee ranged, also Red mage deals with cast times generally likely why summoner is way more used then rdm and Blm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikaal
I think a 10% healing buff has generally less use cases then raise or even magick barrier (but it's still a advantage) and also monks meant to be "hard" (at least compared to other dps), but it also has strong survivability, I generally think monk should be around samurai, melee dps are fairly well balanced (compared to each other), to be fair monk is pretty good right now, despite low use (it's got less then reaper, for some reason).
Lets say RDM and BLM both have no utility (BLM doesn't get self barrier, RDM doesn't get any utility such as raise or magick barrier), I think RDM should actually be very close in total damage to BLM as both have mobility struggles. While summoner is generally more free (and easier to get into, rdm rotation isn't hard to be fair), although I don't think summoners should get punished too hard "for being ez" more because they've just got so much mobility. (I'd actually like them to return Dot's and some stuff to summoner to flesh it out, right now it's just not great imo). -
10-02-2022, 02:39 AMAikaalExcept... Summoner has no gained anything from that mobility. In Shadowbringer, they didn't have that mobility and Summoners were happy. Red Mage suffers mainly from Raise. Also, RDM has Magick Barrier as per BLM and SMN got Manaward/Radiant Aegis. The amount of time I died in DSR where Radiant Aegis would have saved me lol. Summoners still have to manage Ifrit which is really annoying because Ifrit does have casts and melee combos but is just flat weaker than Titan who has no casts. Best example I can give is dealing with Vents I simply go Ifrit after Bahamut because that's where I keep all my uptime. It's a small DPS lost over using Titan as second but nothing is worst than downtime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
For 6.0 SMN. They came with an idea. Thought it was good, didn't really think how it would fit in the current game and that's what we got lol. I still prefer RDM over SMN. Extra summons WILL NOT fix Summoner :[ -
10-02-2022, 03:01 AMSaberMaxwellI'm honestly interested in knowing how you handle Purgation on RDM without losing casts, because at this point I can dance around Cthonic Vents but Purgation is a mechanic that aggravates me to no end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikaal
EDIT: oh you meant 8s part 2, I'm dumb. -
10-02-2022, 03:53 AMFireMageImagine actually saying this. Also I love living rent free in the heads of trolls, it's both hilarious and patheticQuote:
Originally Posted by Aikaal
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10-02-2022, 04:04 AMAikaalSure, I can show you the clip of my clear this week. Wasn't great but it sorta show what I did. I honestly do RDM there because my group hold buffs and I can't suffer from desyncing my Bahamut.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Aikaal#0001 is my discord.
I think we're talking about the 6minutes burst window of P7S? I don't have any issue with that mechanic.
Imagine defending a bad take. Maybe RDM is super complicated for you. Difficulty is subjective to the player but I figured a 1 trick RDM player like you shouldn't have issues. Wait.. I'll keep it as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
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10-02-2022, 04:15 AMAurora428I agree that RDM's cast bars have thought surrounding them, but I feel it's pretty clear that the answer here isn't for RDM to outdamage the other ranged as well and call that a "fix" lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
Both utility AND mobility are being heavily taxed. It feels like it's always a RDM trying to say mobility weighs heavier than utility. I wonder why that is?
All ranged, including RDM should be doing a lot more damage, but you're going to struggle to find someone that feels RDM deserves more damage than a MCH who brings nothing.
Like honestly a lot of your comments boil down to "my class should be good and yours should be bad" -
10-02-2022, 04:34 AMAikaalHe's sorta a loss cause. I can sympathize as a RDM main as they are not doing the damage they should but at no moment mobility has ever been a RDM issue nor other jobs suddenly need to be worst than my main job. RDM got strong raise, that's why they do lower DPS. Essentially, we're looking at a damage uplift from physical ranged and caster DPS. Not just RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora428
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10-02-2022, 04:39 AMFireMageNothing I've said on the matter of balance is a bad take, but rather factual statements. Also your need to insult me speaks volumes about the kind of person you areQuote:
Originally Posted by Aikaal
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10-02-2022, 04:42 AMMagiusNecrosHe's a notorious Gamefaqs troll. You'll save yourself a lot of time by ignoring him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikaal
Edit: See he knows. -
10-02-2022, 04:44 AMFireMage
Imagine calling me a troll when you support Elice (Sohma) and Valcrist. Yikes. Also, not a troll in the slightest
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10-02-2022, 05:02 AMCKNovel
I'd also suggest to ignore FireMage. He brought nothing to the debate so far.
I can only imagine they wanted to honestly take part but had his bad take getting smash so much he started trolling in frustration.
I think we mostly agree here that RDM isn't much more complex than SMN.
It's just its lack of mobility is a curse on certain movement heavy mechanics.
There is it, we actually have a mechanic that requires running for 10~15 seconds straight.
Except this time casters are unfairly taxed and melees have an advantage that is still not justified.
Especially considering they have a natural survivability&mobility, they're not taxed for that. -
10-02-2022, 05:04 AMFireMageArgumentum ad populum is a thing for a reason. And again, wasn't a bad take, but a factual statementQuote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
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10-02-2022, 05:06 AMAurora428No one has said your takes are bad because they are unpopular, they just disagree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
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10-02-2022, 05:28 AMSaberMaxwellPurgation is the one where people got in trouble for the sleepo strat waymarkers, the one that forces the party to run back and forth across practically the whole arena yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikaal
What I've taken to doing is a 2 minute pot followed by an 8 minute potted burst instead of trying to brute force a potted burst during that mess, and it's worked out pretty well for me, but the question of how to not miss any GCDs during Purgation is still there for me. -
10-02-2022, 05:31 AMCKNovel"Argumentum ad populum" is just an excuse "Why everyone disagrees with my takes? Surely that must be my popularity."Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora428
Just insert the Seymour meme "Am I out of touch?"
People agree that RDM isn't complex and they bring valid arguments.
It doesn't help that RDM was released as the most simple caster and just got easier and easier with expansions coming in.
Endwalker gave it a few good QoLs, making the job more flexible. Its only weakness as of now is purely mobility. -
10-02-2022, 05:50 AMKabooaIs there a strat that doesn't require running back and forth, given the way it works?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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10-02-2022, 05:53 AMSaberMaxwellNope, at least not that I know of. Only strat I've seen that simplifies anything is Sleepo which reduces the process of deciding which direction you're running in and makes healing easier since the group never splits, but running distance is basically unchanged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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10-02-2022, 06:03 AMKabooaJust thinking about it, the only thing I can think of that could possibly alleviate it is having a static stack point, winds adjusting to it. Sometimes you might be able to have a consecutive stack point.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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10-02-2022, 06:10 AMSaberMaxwellThe non-sleepo method my group used to use sometimes allowed for something like that, but even when it was consecutive stacks for the DPS we had to come middle for heals in prep for his raidwide he uses in the middle of the mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
In our current method we do have static stack spots and they afforded me the center of the stack so it was easier for me to come to a stop. Next week I'm gonna try and see if I can get a slidecast off maybe on the way there.
EDIT: I apologize for veering this off of topic so very much. -
10-02-2022, 07:12 AMFireMageRDM is still more complex than each phys ranged and SMN though. Also it got harder this expansionQuote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
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10-02-2022, 07:31 AMRansuRDM isn't remotely complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
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10-02-2022, 08:54 AMFireMageQuote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
Read, them reply. (Or rather don't if you're going to just impotently rage)Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
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10-02-2022, 08:57 AMCithaerias_pyropinaRed Mage is easier than both Machinist and Bard. Can't play Machinist or Bard well to save my life. But Red Mage? So easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
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10-02-2022, 08:58 AMAikaalMmm yeah, I do 2/8 pots and I do cast at 2.43 GCD because of the pants so I do a triple melee combo without pot there with swiftcast, acceleration, sprint and a few dual casts here and there I don't lose anything but it is sorta tight lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Also,
We all agree that guy is cringed as hell?Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
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10-02-2022, 09:06 AMFireMageFacts state otherwiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina
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10-02-2022, 09:09 AMCithaerias_pyropinaList the facts. Show the facts. Divulge me with your facts, oh wise one.Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
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10-02-2022, 09:38 AMFireMageI already have, multiple times. Maybe you should actually readQuote:
Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina
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10-02-2022, 09:58 AMDogempireThere were facts in the posts you've made?Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
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10-02-2022, 10:21 AMRansuHe doesn't have any lol. I don't think he's trolling, but he's definitely misinformed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina
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10-02-2022, 10:46 AMFireMageI'm not remotely misinformed on the matter though. Your need to insult shows your stance is shakyQuote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
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10-02-2022, 12:54 PMDonomanOkQuote:
Originally Posted by Fryfor
I was talking about in comparison to Dancer and Bard but whatever. 4/10 for keeping things interesting at first.Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
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10-02-2022, 07:15 PMNightHourNo, MCH should be ahead of RDM by a significant margin, simply due to kit design and gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMage
RDM brings Embolden, Magick Barrier, Verraise and Vercure to a group, what does MCH bring? Tactician.... which is just a renamed Troubador / Shield Samba.
In my opinion, Red Mage isn't taxed enough for all the tools it provides. -
10-02-2022, 08:34 PMCKNovelI will list you the facts:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina
"It's a fact because I said so"
At this point if I knew nothing of RDM and SMN, I would be convinced SMN is harder.
RDM cannot be more basic. Fills black and white gauge up to 50, spend them on special combo and pay attention to Flèche and Contre Sixte + your dash-in/dash-out.
You have acceleration for mobility, Embolden for raidbuff and Manafication to ensure a special combo within raidbuffs.
The only possible hard thing about RDM would be optimization but that's every jobs problem. -
10-02-2022, 09:04 PMRithy255
almost like different things are harder for different people.
I consider Bard and Machinist harder, but RDM could be harder on learning a fight due to less mobility, even if rdm has a backflip/gapcloser and acceleration it doesn't really compare to phys ranged, RDM still has to deal with both melee range and cast times.
That being said in theory I think if you removed raise and other utility from red mage it should be slighty higher in total damage slightly, but the fact it's got utility ontop of that means it's in a good spot.
Difficulty shouldn't really matter too much, but bard/mach are generally more "difficult" from a rotational standpoint, RDM is more difficult depending on the fight design. -
10-02-2022, 10:47 PMAurora428It IS taxed too much, all ranged are. Separating RDM out in either direction is not the way to go here.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightHour
Just because someone had a bad take about RDM needing to be better than everyone else doesn't mean it's not in an equally dire position. It just means that ALL ranged, including RDM and BLM need very large buffs.
This conversation won't go anywhere unless the goal is for all DPS, ranged physical/magical/melee to be equally valuable. The value of utility or mobility should be equal to the DPS lost if they are taking that route. If people have a preference for immobile jobs that bring more damage, the damage gap is too high. The reality here is that the difference between ranged and melee needs to be relatively small.
If the gap is large enough that people are locking the fourth DPS slot to a particular role, the gap is too high. It is not okay that the balance of the game is reliant on comp locking.
I think people are hugely exaggerating the effects of ranged just being very slightly behind melee as opposed to 10% worse. Doing 1.5-2% more damage is plenty of a reward to play melee, especially considering just how close enrage is on the last floor week 1. If your team is 500 behind the check, a job switch making up 200 of that difference is not small.
It's easy to say a gap of 7% or 5% or 10% is not that big, but when you look at is as "the amount of damage that groups are generally behind on enrage" which is like 500-1300, those differences are absolutely massive balance discrepancies.
Honestly I think balancing out the taxes is pointless if the goal isn't to make the comp melee/prange/caster/flex. Without that goal in mind, "tax" doesn't really matter. -
10-02-2022, 11:42 PMRithy255
I think "1%" of all jobs away from each other sentiment is pretty awful.
Generally I'd say "3-4%" is good, at least a good start and a good goal for future balance, I don't think a massive difference like 10% should exist.
With Jobs such as RDM you can point to raise/utility for a reason why it should be lower then BLM, obviously the current gap might be too much, BLM is too low in the first place.
With jobs such as Mch, you can't really say "oh yeah mch has x utility" because it has nothing other then something that all ranged has (Dancer gets a boat load of healing utilites), you can't point to it's mobility over dancer or even bard because they have better mobility, You can argue "ease" but generally DNC is considered very easy, while mch is a bit more difficult (from what most people say). You can't point to any reason why mch is really worse then the other ranged DPS, because theirs zero room for any sort of reason.
Melee/ranged/caster tax, generally forgets that Black mage is generally a lot harder to move and use compared to a melee in current fights, it also is pretty bad that they'd make fights more melee friendly but not consider how much it would effect ranged, I mean SHB people I remember were arguing that ranged tax was pretty weird, but it wasn't that vocal, now phys ranged has even less reason to be so highly "taxed" . -
10-03-2022, 03:48 AMFireMageImagine actually typing out Vercure like it matters. And Embolden is merely RDM damage, and Verraise is worthless in an optimal setting...so what...Barrier? Yeah not a compelling case especially when RDM is factually harder than MCH. Try againQuote:
Originally Posted by NightHour