*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I don’t think it’s any more wild than people saying the ancients would continue to keep sacrificing and sacrificing when there’s little evidence of that.

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Zodiark is a primal. It's summoners are tempered. It's not as much of a reach as saying that "everyone left over is the dregs of society".

Pre-Endwalker I was suspicious of Zodiark and the Ascians intentions since our only metric for primals were the aether hungry, twisted beings we had put down before. Ramuh was different, but the Ascians themselves were surprised of Ramuh's actions so I don't think they believed primals could work that way. So I thought among other possibilities that there was a possibility they might end the same as it did for the Beastmen, but now I don't think so because the presented facts don't support that opinion as much. It still doesn't change my opinion that their society would have changed focus to their god based on how the Ascians act and devote themselves to their "one true god".

The idea that the 25% left are "chaff" is wild supposition and doesn't have any connection to existing lore unless you want to provide it.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Zodiark is a primal. It's summoners are tempered. It's not as much of a reach as saying that "everyone left over is the dregs of society".

Pre-Endwalker I was suspicious of Zodiark and the Ascians intentions since our only metric for primals were the aether hungry, twisted beings we had put down before. Ramuh was different, but the Ascians themselves were surprised of Ramuh's actions so I don't think they believed primals could work that way. So I thought among other possibilities that there was a possibility they might end the same as it did for the Beastmen, but now I don't think so because the presented facts don't support that opinion as much. It still doesn't change my opinion that their society would have changed focus to their god based on how the Ascians act and devote themselves to their "one true god".

The idea that the 25% left are "chaff" is wild supposition and doesn't have any connection to existing lore unless you want to provide it.

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Except we know from the short stories that even while people were tempered they were in disagreement with each other in things relating to Zodiark. So that kind of refuted the whole statement, along with Yoshi p going on record stating the primal can choose how severe the tempering is, and considering Elidibus was the heart i doubt it would be as intense as people make it out to be. It’s as wild of an assumption because we have various pieces of info that refute it so we’re back to square one on both.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except we know from the short stories that even while people were tempered they were in disagreement with each other in things relating to Zodiark. So that kind of refuted the whole statement, along with Yoshi p going on record stating the primal can choose how severe the tempering is, and considering Elidibus was the heart i doubt it would be as intense as people make it out to be. It’s as wild of an assumption because we have various pieces of info that refute it so we’re back to square one on both.

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I said in my post that you quoted that I changed my mind on that.

I think what the Convocation had was a push to keep going and work to bring him back, otherwise I don't think a sane person could keep genociding for 12,000 years. Somewhere along the line, they started saying "one true god" this and "veil the world in darkness" that, and it could be attributed to a slow tempering over 12,000 years, but you can't exactly introduce a living god of your making into your society and expect it to go back to how it was before either. Especially if it went the way they were hoping with it bringing the dead back to life.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

It's funny you should say that since it's the closest I've come to agreeing with the other side of the debate. However, if you want to argue that all of the Ancients were good who didn't deserve their fate I'm here for it!

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I'm not sure how that counts as being the closest you've come to agreeing when that 25% of the people left that you're disparaging also includes the large chunk of people who summoned Hydaelyn.

I won't say that all the Ancients were good people, Hermes is a piece of work and Hesperos had some deep-seated feelings he was hiding that were drawn out and magnified by who-knows-what. But I don't believe there is anything in the text supporting the idea that a quarter of the Final Days survivors who made it to the summonings were bad or weak people.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I said in my post that you quoted that I changed my mind on that.

I think what the Convocation had was a push to keep going and work to bring him back, otherwise I don't think a sane person could keep genociding for 12,000 years. Somewhere along the line, they started saying "one true god" this and "veil the world in darkness" that, and it could be attributed to a slow tempering over 12,000 years, but you can't exactly introduce a living god of your making into your society and expect it to go back to how it was before either. Especially if it went the way they were hoping with it bringing the dead back to life.

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I do agree with that. I do have a question but do we see that from ShB onwards? Outside of Emet i mean like do we see the ancients post Zodiark saying things like that whether in short stories or the like because i’m wondering if that was simply something that was shown in ARR/HW but then dropped(presumably after they decided to make hydy and zodi primals). I think in the end a lot of it rests on unanswered questions that will sadly most likely never get answered. For example what specifically was the life they wanted to sacrifice? Was it soul filled creations, was it life akin to the sundered life? Or was it life on par with the ancients.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I do agree with that. I do have a question but do we see that from ShB onwards? Outside of Emet i mean like do we see the ancients post Zodiark saying things like that whether in short stories or the like because i’m wondering if that was simply something that was shown in ARR/HW but then dropped(presumably after they decided to make hydy and zodi primals). I think in the end a lot of it rests on unanswered questions that will sadly most likely never get answered. For example was specifically was the life they wanted to sacrifice? Was it soul filled creations, was it life akin to the sundered life? Or was it life on par with the ancients.

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Yeah, I think a large part of it was more that the writing got better than anything else, but I still feel like you need to reconcile the present with how the writing was before.

As far as the life to be sacrificed, that's one of my biggest remaining questions. The Ancients live for a long time and there was time enough for the division of their society to happen between those who followed Elidibus and those who followed Venat. But it could've been anywhere from a couple of weeks to many years. And we don't know if the life left over is a bunch of animals or if sentient people are included. I would assume that hyur and elezen separately descended from the sundered Ancients, but what about the other races? Were they around at the time? Were they called into existence when Zodiark seeded the star with life and that's what Venat wanted to protect?

I feel like more knowledge on all that could give us a better understanding of Venat's actions and I hope that something relating to that comes out in a future "Tales from the Dawn". We'd be robbed if they don't do one for this expansion or if out of all the stories, none have anything to do with the Ancients at all.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

But I don't believe there is anything in the text supporting the idea that a quarter of the Final Days survivors who made it to the summonings were bad or weak people.

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I didn't say there was, I said it was a possibility. The ones depicted in the post-Elpis cutscene are not who I'd consider a good representation of the Ancients as a whole. However, if those types were representative of who was left? Well, then there'd be more argument in favor of what Venat did.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

For what it's worth, the actual explanation given for this is that the Ancient ruins on the Source were destroyed over time by the Calamities. All they had to survive on the First was uncountable years of neglect and natural erosion, and even that did a number on Amaurot, although Anamnesis Anyder managed to stay intact.

On the Source? They had to suffer through six different planetwide cataclysms, including a great flood, an unending blizzard, and colossal windstorms. It's not that the Sundering hit the Source any harder; it's that afterwards, the Ascians hit the Source with enough force that they likely wiped the planet clean of any conclusive evidence of their own society. Which is... kinda tragic, actually.

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True enough, this explains why they were entirely lost, at least, in so far as Eorzea and ilsabard are concerned. But my point is that some should have survived on one of the other shards, we might find this out latr of course, but that doesnt explain away where the Ancients actually went. There should be some evidence that they lived. Some race of giant people walking around. As i said it may be they just died out after the sundering during the many calamities.

But hypothetically speaking, if there are no ancients following the sundering and no writings, nothing on any of the shards, then to me that suggests that they were wiped out before the sundering occured. Or at least the possibility that this happened. Even with the calamities, there should be some evidence of their existence even if it was simply in the stories told by the survivers of a giant like race. Or maybe 12 survived and they are known as the twelve now. Who knows, maybe we'll find out in the future. I just think its an interesting thing to consider. There really isnt any way of knowing whether or not the Sundering was also genocide or not at the moment.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Zodiark is a primal. It's summoners are tempered. It's not as much of a reach as saying that "everyone left over is the dregs of society".

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I think Emet selch refered to them as "Primals after a fashion" and the end of Endwalker states it is intention of the current summoning method that makes them temper people. Zodiark ws a product of creation magic and if he did temper those that summoned it I think it was more about affecting the polarity of their aether over making them into mindless servants who would worship him. I think the Ascians devotion to Zodiark is more about gratitude to the souls within him than for him being "one true god" Its also likely that the story in ARR wasnt fleshed out enough to be considered wholly canon to endwalker. So Lahabrea's monologue about ZOdiark shouldnt really be taken as gospell. Especially since the milenias of body hopping had turned him in a deranged creature. I think Emet even mentions that Lahabrea burned his life by the body hopping while emet just took a body, lived its lifespan and then took another.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Zodiark is a primal. It's summoners are tempered.

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Don't they specifically say this expansion that Hydaelyn and Zodiark aren't like modern Primals and can't temper people?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Don't they specifically say this expansion that Hydaelyn and Zodiark aren't like modern Primals and can't temper people?

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Not quite. The Lopporits say there will be a "tug" because of the sheer amount of aether, which means there's at least an effect and I think that can be associated to their different behavior before the summonings and how we know them in the modern sense. Then there's Emet-Selch who outright says he's tempered, using that exact word.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Not quite. The Lopporits say there will be a "tug" because of the sheer amount of aether, which means there's at least an effect and I think that can be associated to their different behavior before the summonings and how we know them in the modern sense. Then there's Emet-Selch who outright says he's tempered, using that exact word.

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In other words, the writers wanted to try to get Hydaelyn off the hook despite the fact that they had already wrote themselves into a corner, so they gave a poor and vague explanation that we can deduce nothing from either way.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

In other words, the writers wanted to try to get Hydaelyn off the hook despite the fact that they had already wrote themselves into a corner, so they gave a poor and vague explanation that we can deduce nothing from either way.

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If you want to look at it at that angle, sure but the way I see it:

Emet-Selch, who has nothing to hide: "Yeah I'm tempered, what of it?"
Mascot comedic-relief character created by Venat, who hides a lot: "Oh, it's just a tug because it's a lot of aether all at once."

Both can be true, but I feel like Emet-Selch's truth is a bit more than the Lopporits'.

Unless the writers come out and say "we did a retcon" I trust a character who himself has been affected to describe his own affliction than a bunny rabbit on the moon. The tempering is not the same and not as powerful as that which people tempered by tampered primals go through, but they're tempered nonetheless. The limit of it in my opinion seems to be as a very strong suggestion to keep trying to bring him back. But they also praise him as a god, which is traditional tempering and is a bit worrying. That's not even limited to Lahabrea either, all of the Ascians do it together when we see them gather for the first time, Nabriales does it as well when we fight him. Part of that certainly can be attributed to Him saving their people, but considering they of all people should know better than that and know he's not a god and just another complex creation is the scary part.

The timing definitely seems weird though considering that information comes out after talking to Crystal Mom, but it still stands that a character in the previous expansion, written presumably under the same writing director, said clearly in the text that the Ascians are tempered.

I just wish they had shown us if Venat did try to explain the things she learned with us to the convocation and we seeing them reject it.

Cause now I just keep asking why did they not use the information we gathered on dynamis? The only reason would be if she did not tell them about the situation. Surely an ex member of the 14th's words would be trustworthy.

I would not have joined the Ascians. We would not learned what we did and we would have died in the end as Meteion's power would have just grown more and more. She would not have stopped until we dead. That was her goal. Might have taken her longer time if we rejoined but eventually it would be looming above our heads.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

In other words, the writers wanted to try to get Hydaelyn off the hook despite the fact that they had already wrote themselves into a corner, so they gave a poor and vague explanation that we can deduce nothing from either way.

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I mean you're not wrong

It makes the whole story arc in Shadowbringers with Elidibus the starshower and Hydaelyn's voice more confusing imo.

At least Emet was open to actually answering questions and Hydaelyn/Venat pretty much let others speak instead of really explaining things. No real dialog option with her. Not that I am saying she DID NOT say anything but a quite a bit of it was shoveled off to side characters.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

That's clearly a major issue given the further mankind advances the less suffering they'll face. The more rare suffering becomes the less inevitable it will be (or at least seem). Eventually humanity will simply reach the state the Ancients were at before, if they don't destroy themselves or are destroyed by something else before that point.

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Perhaps, but humanity now has had the experiences they need to know how to approach suffering. The answer is there.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Because whatever arguments she made, they were formulated while hiding the truth of the crisis. They cannot know the issue is unresolved unless Venat tells them why it isn't.

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A truth that might’ve destroyed them. They barely handled the Final Days, if they knew what awaited them at the edge of universe they’d fall divided.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

She should have done exactly as Midgardsormr did, argue for sedition, and take whatever followers she had and left. As for how, she devised a plan for that very purpose already.

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A plan that required thousands of years of research and aether accumulation. And once they get to that other world, then what? There’s no Etheirys to run to.

And why do we immediately jump to thinking that the writers are making excuses. They wrote the scenario, there’s no “right way” for them to have handled something. If they lay out that Zodiark didn’t actively seek temper people but did so just out of virtue of how powerful he was, then that’s that.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

A truth that might’ve destroyed them. They barely handled the Final Days, if they knew what awaited them at the edge of universe they’d fall divided.

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We don’t know this though. if 6-7 random sundered were able to do it i fail to see why a society of ancient god-like beings would be unable to outside of plot convenience. It’s like how somehow no universes or worlds knew about dynamis. But considering the fields of research they had and the combined effort of emet and venat i’m sure something could’ve been done.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We don’t know this though. if 6-7 random sundered were able to do it i fail to see why a society of ancient god-like beings would be unable to outside of plot convenience. It’s like how somehow no universes or worlds knew about dynamis. But considering the fields of research they had and the combined effort of emet and venat i’m sure something could’ve been done.

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I think there’s a large difference between a group of handpicked individuals who could handle it vs a planet wide announcement. Call it plot convenience if you wish, but the fact remains that the Ancients struggled not to panic when faced with mortality. If they knew existence was destined to end, that they would need to face incredible suffering and loss to even make it to Meteion, and even then may fail, how would they react? Venat herself says that many turned to nostalgia and desperate attempts to forget what happened. Would they have made it?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I think there’s a large difference between a group of handpicked individuals who could handle it vs a planet wide announcement. Call it plot convenience if you wish, but the fact remains that the Ancients struggled not to panic when faced with mortality. If they knew existence was destined to end, that they would need to face incredible suffering and loss to even make it to Meteion, and even then may fail, how would they react? Venat herself says that many turned to nostalgia and desperate attempts to forget what happened. Would they have made it?

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We know though based on Elpis side quests and Pandaemonium story so far that they did suffer. They knew suffering already. The fact is she didn’t even give them a chance. She talks about hope so much yet she didn’t have any hope in her own people. She instead placed all her hope in someone she had only just met which makes her look even worse.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We know though based on Elpis side quests and Pandaemonium story so far that they did suffer. They knew suffering already. The fact is she didn’t even give them a chance. She talks about hope so much yet she didn’t have any hope in her own people. She instead placed all her hope in someone she had only just met which makes her look even worse.

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You say all this yet forget that their race was simply not capable of fighting against something like Meteion. Part of the reason for the sundering was to give man the means to fight back.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You say all this yet forget that their race was simply not capable of fighting against something like Meteion. Part of the reason for the sundering was to give man the means to fight back.

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Once again, we don’t know that. They simply didn’t have time. Had Venat told them the truth instead of keeping secrets from them perhaps they would have been able to. There’s nothing really pointing to why they couldn’t. The “reason” for the sundering rings a bit hollow when Venat didn’t give her own people a chance in the first place.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Once again, we don’t know that. They simply didn’t have time. Had Venat told them the truth instead of keeping secrets from them perhaps they would have been able to. There’s nothing really pointing to why they couldn’t. The “reason” for the sundering rings a bit hollow when Venat didn’t give her own people a chance in the first place.

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We know how the two forces interact, they wouldn't have stood a chance. Zodiark didn't stop the final days he just delayed it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Once again, we don’t know that.

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Emet outright says that they would not have done as well as we have.

I've said as much before but it's well worth repeating. It makes sense for the Sundered to not want to roll over and die in favour of the Unsundered and to do everything possible in order to survive and fight against destruction.

However, it also makes sense for the Unsundered to want to do the same thing. It's unfortunate, but they were never given a fair chance due to Venat's actions.

Given that the Ancients had a society built around safeguarding the Star as well as a lot of focus on research and civil debate, it seems possible that a solution could potentially have been found if not for the treachery and sabotage from within.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Emet outright says that they would not have done as well as we have.

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That’s with him not having the knowledge he could’ve had, had they actually put time in learning how to counter it lmao. That’s emet from the time where they didn’t even have a chance to fight back.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

We know how the two forces interact, they wouldn't have stood a chance. Zodiark didn't stop the final days he just delayed it.

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Thats not something we can say though. We know Hermes was able to discover Dynamis. We had some of the knowledge to give to Venat. had she told them and they actively worked to counter Meteion they more than likely could have. If we're talking pre Zodiark. If its post zodiark it was at least delayed and thats more time they could put towards it, but im mainly talking pre final days.Venat's entire plan rested on someone whom she knew for what, a few hours? She placed all her trust in us and not her own people, who were powerful and smart in their own right. I find it incredibly hard to believe that out of the entire universes that Meteion destroyed it was only the sundered who could defeat her lol.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s with him not having the knowledge he could’ve had, had they actually put time in learning how to counter it lmao. That’s emet from the time where they didn’t even have a chance to fight back.

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Uhm... no, that's Emet brought back from the dead in Ultima Thule. Reunited with the knowledge taken from him by Kairos, freed from whatever Zodiark tempering did to his mind, and with the hindsight to see everything that had happened. That's as close to a fair and unbiased view as you'll ever get from the guy.

And another point of order: Hermes did not 'discover' dynamis. It's stated several times that it's an extremely esoteric field of study. But it is a field of study, which means there's rather a bit of background reading to do if you're not someone like Hermes.

Finally... we do know they literally didn't stand a chance against the Final Days by themselves. Everything they summoned in the face of the Final Days became a Terminus beast. Given that's basically how they solved every problem, they'd struggle with the very first hurdle of 'stopping Meteion', to say nothing of the other... six or so.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We know though based on Elpis side quests and Pandaemonium story so far that they did suffer. They knew suffering already. The fact is she didn’t even give them a chance. She talks about hope so much yet she didn’t have any hope in her own people. She instead placed all her hope in someone she had only just met which makes her look even worse.

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This just isn’t true though. People keep saying this but this is objectively not true. We are shown her trying to convince others. You can say she didn’t go far enough, but to say she didn’t try at all is just wrong. And the faith she had in the sundered is the faith she had in the unsundered, she doesn’t distinguish between the two like that.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Perhaps, but humanity now has had the experiences they need to know how to approach suffering. The answer is there.

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What experiences? Roughly every 100 years max every individual's memories and experiences are completely reset upon death, at which point they reincarnate into a new, innocent being. And culturally there isn't any "experience" either - As was the sweeping point at the end of 5.0, everything fades with time. Everything that has happened now will be lost to history, forgotten as the mountains tumble to dust and the edifices of this age wear to nothing. Not to mention, how many people fell to despair in moments in Endwalker? Transformed into monstrosities almost instantly by hopelessness? Did they not learn the right lessons?

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A truth that might’ve destroyed them. They barely handled the Final Days, if they knew what awaited them at the edge of universe they’d fall divided.

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I should think they would take significant comfort in the fact that the Final Days was merely the result of a rogue creation utilizing a powerful energy source rather than being a completely unknowable apocalypse event springing forth from nowhere and nothing. The latter of these circumstances is clearly more difficult to process than the former.

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A plan that required thousands of years of research and aether accumulation. And once they get to that other world, then what?

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They had thousands of years, given the planet was being protected. And if Venat and her allies were working on it themselves it should have gone quite quickly. As to the second point, ask Venat given she chose to go with that plan even with that question in place.

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If they lay out that Zodiark didn’t actively seek temper people but did so just out of virtue of how powerful he was, then that’s that.

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That is that, yes. That being bad writing. Hell, it's so vague and contradictory you can hardly even claim that to be the case.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

vs a planet wide announcement.

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Then don't tell everyone? Or hell, do so. It wasn't a panic that caused the Final Days, it was overwhelming space magic plowing through holes in the atmosphere.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You say all this yet forget that their race was simply not capable of fighting against something like Meteion. Part of the reason for the sundering was to give man the means to fight back.

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If only they were capable of creating some sort of beings with the means to fight. Perhaps by thinning the aether of willing individuals somehow. Even just one true hero, who could somehow be split into fourteen copies of themselves. But I guess such a thing was simply beyond their power.

I suppose it's well worth pointing out that the Ancients weren't obligated to go along with Venat's plan. Much in the same way as how not everybody was obligated to go along with the Convocation's plan. The Ancient world was built around debate even in dire circumstances and it was Venat who opted to take choice and free will away from everybody.

Another poster brought up an excellent point. Veloran, I believe. About how Venat could have opted to create a spaceship and flee with those who agreed with her. Much in the same way as how Midgardsormr chose to leave his Star behind. Such a choice would have allowed Venat to enact her own resistance and the Convocation to enact theirs.

Venat may have prevented the Sundered from being wiped out, though they only exist due to her own actions...and came at the expense of her own people. Let's not forget that she didn't even have the grace to allow their memories to persist - it was only due to Y'shtola and the Warrior of Light opting to honour Emet-Selch's request that the truth of the origins of the world was not only exposed but honoured.

You are aware that they are not aware of the nature of the thing they would be fighting. They just assumed the star was dying and they weren't too keen on finding out either. They just wanted to run back to their peaceful lives...at the cost of more lives.
@above. You do realize that she Metieon intended to kill every single thing in the universe correct? Sundering man kind was the only way to enabling mankind to fight back. Had Venat just run away she would be in the same situation as anybody else in the universe.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

What experiences? Roughly every 100 years max every individual's memories and experiences are completely reset upon death, at which point they reincarnate into a new, innocent being. And culturally there isn't any "experience" either - As was the sweeping point at the end of 5.0, everything fades with time. Everything that has happened now will be lost to history, forgotten as the mountains tumble to dust and the edifices of this age wear to nothing. Not to mention, how many people fell to despair in moments in Endwalker? Transformed into monstrosities almost instantly by hopelessness? Did they not learn the right lessons?

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The experiences that are passed on the same way all human knowledge is? And once again, I’m not arguing everything is solved for all time. Just that humanity is now on a path they wouldn’t be if reliant on Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I should think they would take significant comfort in the fact that the Final Days was merely the result of a rogue creation utilizing a powerful energy source rather than being a completely unknowable apocalypse event springing forth from nowhere and nothing. The latter of these circumstances is clearly more difficult to process than the former.

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And that comfort will quickly be replaced with horror as they realize they are surrounded by a graveyard of civilizations who, despite doing what they thought was best, fell to ruin and despair. And that even if they do survive, ultimately Etheirys and everything on it will still be destined to die.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

They had thousands of years, given the planet was being protected. And if Venat and her allies were working on it themselves it should have gone quite quickly. As to the second point, ask Venat given she chose to go with that plan even with that question in place.

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Thousands of years maybe. And like I said, they had no interest in remembering the Final Days in any form, but you believe they’d be willing to suffer to achieve that goal?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

That is that, yes. That being bad writing. Hell, it's so vague and contradictory you can hardly even claim that to be the case.

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Why? It makes sense. Tempering being the natural consequence of creating an incredibly powerful primal doesn’t contradict anything.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Then don't tell everyone? Or hell, do so. It wasn't a panic that caused the Final Days, it was overwhelming space magic plowing through holes in the atmosphere.

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Let’s lay this out. You can’t tell everyone, as they’ll panic. You can’t tell the Convocation, as they don’t keep secrets and Hermes reaction may doom the world. So who do you tell? Those you trust and can keep the secret.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Another poster brought up an excellent point. Veloran, I believe. About how Venat could have opted to create a spaceship and flee with those who agreed with her. Much in the same way as how Midgardsormr chose to leave his Star behind. Such a choice would have allowed Venat to enact her own resistance and the Convocation to enact theirs.

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And as I mentioned when that was brought up before, that runs into a problem that you're assuming that all they need to do is recreate the conditions that ended up working. Which sounds great at first, but runs into two problems.

A: They don't have a way to know that this specifically could have worked. They know that Meteion is in space, yes, but they don't really know anything else about what's needed; for all they know they'll need an army unlike anything that her crew could possibly manage.

B: It also presumes that they would have been able to do what was required, which seems unlikely. What we see is needed ends up being a handful of dynamis-capable people who can speak from the heart and connect with the souls of those Meteion is imprisoning in their own despair. I have serious doubt that the Ancients actually would have been capable of this, because their personalities and histories that they can speak from (basically, intellectual empathy) is entirely separate from the ability to interact with dynamis that their creations have (basically, magical empathy). You need both present at once, and quite simply, the Ancients just don't. In fact, their creations end up immediately succumbing to dynamis and becoming Terminus beasts, which suggests that some level of soul or willfulness is required, and that can't just be snapped into existence.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The experiences that are passed on the same way all human knowledge is?

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Human knowledge is extremely transitive. Again ShB spelled this out, and the entire game has done nothing to dissuade the notion of people's reliance on gods and messianic figures.

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And that comfort will quickly be replaced with horror as they realize they are surrounded by a graveyard of civilizations who, despite doing what they thought was best, fell to ruin and despair. And that even if they do survive, ultimately Etheirys and everything on it will still be destined to die.

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The dread of an axe murderer in your kitchen supersedes the dread of existentialism. The Ancients clearly wanted to live.

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And like I said, they had no interest in remembering the Final Days in any form, but you believe they’d be willing to suffer to achieve that goal?

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These are the people Venat trusted and expected to make the ultimate sacrifice, so yes I would expect them to do so. Midgardsormr did.

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It makes sense. Tempering being the natural consequence of creating an incredibly powerful primal doesn’t contradict anything.

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It doesn't make sense because Hydaelyn is an incredibly powerful primal and supposedly she did nothing because that was simply not the nature of Ancient primals.

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You can’t tell everyone, as they’ll panic.

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Who cares if they panic. The Final Days isn't predicated upon their panic.

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You can’t tell the Convocation, as they don’t keep secrets and Hermes reaction may doom the world.

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There are countless solutions on this front. The first and most obvious - Hermes isn't even necessary because all the information that he brought to the table was already revealed to Venat in Elpis. Another, trick him to get his cooperation. Another, tell the Convocation before Hermes even joined. Way more besides.

A side note, since the Ancients are living lie detectors now, is it any wonder why the Convocation rejected Venat's objections? She was lying to them.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Also I am not so sure about her "killing" by sundering. Every being was sundered...if sundering kills then nothing would be left alive thus no new life could have been reborn. Emet talks about sundering by just making a copy of Ryne. Bascially how I see it: The Ancient person was bascially split into 14 people. Each one of them less powerful than before but still with their memories intact. After all we see on the First that people had knowledge of the Final days and the sundering (cave painting). Or am I missing some ingame information where we got told that sundering kills?

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A little food for thought. By the act of sundering which is now a purposeful act. You remember that each reflection/shard had different aethereal balances. So we also talked about how geographically things probably had their own evolution, ie land masses mountains and so forth. Now let's think of sundering. So now a place gets a new reflection right?

Do all the people sundered land safely?

Do people walk around with no memory with a big "what happened" only to fall into a chasm. Or what if your reflection is now a volcano where a home once was?

I mean I guess it's nice enough to overlook that detail and just assume, but here we were arguing about the logistics of various land masses that fell to calamities that likely caused deaths.

Personally I have a hard time feeling that sundering is just some "pain free" everyone landed safely when places aspected towards other elements could cause some other potential problems with geography.

Even then. Let's also think about what's going on with the Ancients. Let's say some of them while dealing with the Final Days may have created a flying creature that took their concentration to have them fly around to avoid a terminus beast.

Allasudden poof! Sundered, bye bye ability of creation magic and person just gets dropped in the ocean and slams into and dies or into a mountain. Who knows. Their agency was pretty much taken at that moment.


....To Be Continued *cue Roundabout ----->

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I mean maybe we could argue that somehow her one summon and sunder, did all these wonderful calculations that somehow made everyone safe during the sundering event (since we really didn't see it anyways) but honestly that would make her way OP and that people would have even wondered why she just didn't sac herself instead before Zodiark's creation or something like that in fact, it just makes some of this more ominous that now she had the forethought - instead of just a contest of wills of well intended beings that didn't know WHAT could have happened.

I mean she basically needed Zodiark to be created since the argument is she shouldn't be changing the future. Basically waited for some people to sac pull to become Zodiark, and took over as the will of the planet. I mean she didn't really kill anyone but they did have to suffer and doing so deaths were caused and it's not like we know for sure by happenstance caused more death, but suffering/death/loss is OKAY on her watch.

With people arguing that the Ancients would have never learned so it was okay for Venat to do the things she did, reminds me of how our history books were about taming savage Native Americans to be less of heathens so Americans can justify taking over the land as new life. Now that so many years have passed there is no way in hell current dwellers of former native soil are gonna let go of that land now. Its helpful we forgot about it too just like how history rewrote what happened to the natives.

NOW though - don't get me wrong since it bears repeating I like the story, but I just have qualms with the portrayal. I would have loved to have seen the new life. I would have loved to have been the fly on the wall for those meetings by the convocation. Like I know we can't see Azem during those meetings but would have been interesting to SEE the emotional state of those members instead of random Ancients in a monologue to Answers. I also feel that the struggle and calamities needed to happen because I still feel a combination of the right balance of Aether embodiment WITH the ability to use Dynamis won the day. So I kinda stand in the middle that neither were really right in what they did but it took both of those views to make right and save our star.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

If the ancient had indeed survived, then they should be around somewhere. We know from Elpis that some of the things they created survived until the modern day. There is the option that they were wiped out on the source and the first, but if that was so you would expect that there would be mythos and legends about them.

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The Ancients got sundered thus I guess after they first died of old age after that they just got reborn into smaller bodies because they now could use less aether. So the Hyurs themselves could be the smaller bodies of Ancients while the rest of the races probably were creations of them that later got reborn souls of them too. After all we know that ancient souls too gets reincarnated all the time, we ourself are proof of that.

We do not know how the situation was after Zodiark, after the fight between him and Hydaelyn. Maybe he did indeed only recreate nature and Amaurot was still in ruins after he saved the planet. Or it was rebuilt but because the future generations were much smaller they had no use for it or it got destroyed by the countless of calamites. After all Amaurot was the only city still "standing" after the Final Days. Everything else was already destroyed by it. And since only a small part of the Ancients even survived I doubt that they had rebuilt much outside of their city when the sundering came. The calamites did the rest. This can be seen on the First which had none such things because the Amaurot ruins do still exist under the sea and we even have the cave painting about the Final Days and everything after that. (Which gives a hint that people must have remembered otherwise they could not have painted that)

There are also mysteries because we still dont know much about the 12. Which will be explained in the next raid to us.

@QT_Melon:
Well we only have one source about sundering and that is Emet showing it to us by making a copy of Ryne. If that what happens then for me at least it would be the easiest solution that they bascially made a copy of everything. The whole planet was copied 14 times and because each needed aether it took that from the the original. For me it just means that bascially in a moment of time suddenly there were 14 copies of the planet and all its living beings without the others knowing that they are a copy. I doubt that through sundering the land suddenly changed. That would be something that happened over the centuries.

Of course until we get any confirmation any of our points are pure speculation. But this is also why I dont like saying that it was mass genocide. We simply dont know. Unlike of course rejoining where we know that the shard was bascially destroyed and the people killed. We have a example with the First and thus we can say that rejoinings are planetwide mass genoicde. Because rejoining only happen when the shard gets destroyed.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Of course until we get any confirmation any of our points are pure speculation. But this is also why I dont like saying that it was mass genocide. We simply dont know. Unlike of course rejoining where we know that the shard was bascially destroyed and the people killed. We have a example with the First and thus we can say that rejoinings are planetwide mass genoicde. Because rejoining only happen when the shard gets destroyed.

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I get it, because we don't see it. I just find it hard to imagine that someone didn't die as a result.

The other thing I think about that does upset me is that answer we got about why Hydaelyn (now passed off as) embellished the Heavensward story of her and Zodiark. Okay it was to help rile us up. Keep in mind however, how she told the story. She basically asked Minfillia to become her spokesperson. I don't even like Minfillia, but that's messed up.

So basically you asked someone to DIE and become your mouthpiece so you can lie to our WoL....WAT?!?!

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

So basically you asked someone to DIE and become your mouthpiece so you can lie to our WoL....WAT?!?!

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minfillia was gonna die due to flow and being lost for too long but fusing with hydaelyn let her live while letting hydaelyn continue for a bit longer.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

minfillia was gonna die due to flow and being lost for too long but fusing with hydaelyn let her live while letting hydaelyn continue for a bit longer.

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Correction: Minfilia was going to escape alive alongside the WoL and Alphinaud, but Hydaelyn requested she return to where Y'shtola had cast Flow for the purpose of empowering her to act as the Word of the Mother/Oracle of Light.

It was kind of a dick move, honestly. Especially since it was revealed that Hydaelyn was sitting on not one, but two stashes of unused power—the Mothercrystal and the power she'd set aside to test us in the event that we wished to challenge Meteion. And while it was certainly taxing for her to appear on the surface world (either as herself or through Krile), her situation wasn't so dire that she needed Minfilia to sacrifice her life to act as her mouthpiece. Really, the whole "Word of the Mother" thing is a little screwed up, in hindsight.

even if we had done exactly what emet wanted and everything went right, the rejoining wouldn't be perfect. the void is still useless.