Dark Knight Megathread

It never occurred to me until now how ironic it is that DRK got gutted to hell in the expansion it was the poster Job for lmao...

I feel the drk hate has really ruined what should have been a exciting time for me. If dark knight died then it was sb that killed it, shb drk just took its place. I liked sb drk as well as shb drk. The latter needed more things added but I enjoyed it none the less. All I wanted in ew was more depth added to the job and a delirium rework. The depth part we'll have to wait and delirium is here to stay which is a big disappointment but I can live with it. I feel like a lot of people don't realize that drk can only go up since the rework, whether the new stuff will be enough to satisfy those that hated the rework is yet to be seen but I have no doubt it will be better as long as nothing is removed this time which seems to be the case.

The new line aoe being a gcd (the yellow aura when it was used) is very interesting since so far it doesn't seem to interact with darkside or blood. It was only used during living shadow after an edge of shadow with exactly 10 second in between. The tank panel basically ignored it only mentioning esteem will use it when you get it. Someone earlier mentioned it could just be like drg's nastrond but why didn't they just tell us drk can use a new action during living shadow like they did with the rest of the jobs?

Smaller things:
Salted earth's duration is unchanged and the cd is either still 90s or changed to something other than 60s.
Dark art wasn't shown but the gauge is still there, it wasn't shown during shb's show case either so maybe breaking tbn is just a pain. The new defensive cd isn't tied to tbn but I wonder if it has any interaction with dark art.
Mp generation and cost is unknown. The cost of abilities used during the showcase was barely possible at current values if the regen tick was perfect, assuming none of the new abilities cost mp.
Bloodspiller wasn't used but living shadow still had it.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

Your response seems like an inner conflict and I do not blame you. You made alot of great posts in the past and did your best to contribute in a positive way yet, we ended up with this version of DRK. You quoted me directly, so I know this is somewhat serious.

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This sticks out to me quite a bit. I'll be first to admit that I have had an inner conflict for years now, there was a serious fire in me since the original reveal to push back against the change, and return to a DRK I found not necessarily, or objectively better, but one that fit me more accurately. The only reason I have a forum account is to take the knowledge I've gained from years of play, talk with other people, and try to make some constructive improvements to my main.

Two and a half years later of ShB, over five years of a DRK main later, I'm just tired now. The fire has gone out, and I can't keep praying and hoping for something I know isn't going to happen. Going from someone who was on the front lines of the Anti-rework side for so long, and now actually trying to defend and support the rework is draining in ways I didn't think were possible for a class in an MMO.

With that said, I think people are being melodramatic. We don't need more eulogies about how good the previous versions were, all it's doing is tying us down, and ensuring no one will ever be happy with the job. And I think that's the reality we need to face, that certain people are straight up never going to be happy with the job again, and the new version of it for better or worse, is here to stay.

To justify this change in tone, I'd like to point to the last job action trailer, one I had significant problems with back then. We had so much more information, we had MP information, we had Blood change information, we had actual knowledge of what Darkside did, what EoS did, and could surmise what Esteem's function was. Most importantly, we were able to have tooltips literally the next day, and start planning rotations, gameplay loops, etc etc. And a lot of us didn't like what we saw, justifiably.

Compare that to this time. We have very little idea of what meaningful changes are coming, if any. The only thing we have are animations, but we know almost nothing of the interactions, or how things lead to each other. This time around, we have actually zero information on the things that actually impact the gameplay loop, that AoE GCD being the primary point of interest. SE, as is their typical style, didn't say anything worthwhile. We don't have tooltips for another month, so we can't do anything but speculate. We don't have enough information to make wide-swept statements like what's been prevalent across the DRK-scape lately. It's too early. There are too many unknowns, things gaining charges, cooldown reductions that might affect the MP/Blood economy, BW changes, what the new shield even does, none of that stuff is going to be things we can gleam without someone putting up a list of tooltips.

That being said, we do know one thing. We lost. The core of the rework and gameplay experience stays. So, with that fact in mind, people need to come an end of the road for this. Either you deal with what we have, make the best of it, and move forward. Or you hang up the greatsword, and maybe the game as a whole. We will not be going back. This has made people actually miserable, and I know more than a few people from HW/SB who dropped because of ShB go and pretty much put the nail in the coffin for the job with the trailer. And I just think we need more concrete information first before making any judgements on EW, even if what we have right now isn't too exciting.

I'm going to try to look for positives this time, and if there are none to be found once I have actual, real information, that'll be okay with me. There is no shame in giving up.

(Except if new line AoE GCD is just Nastrond on DRK. I'll be pretty disappointed.)

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Originally Posted by Tsiron

It never occurred to me until now how ironic it is that DRK got gutted to hell in the expansion it was the poster Job for lmao...

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There's a reason most people joke about the poster job being destroyed for its expansion.. at least from StB onwards.

Monk got hit kinda hard is StB and was changed..
SAM was a shared poster job and it was nerfed down(fair it needed it at the start)
DRK got destroyed in ShB
We were saying RIP to pally not to long ago.. but SE might of broken their "break the posterboy" curse with pally changes.. tho of all they got was the 3 new confinder skills that's pretty lame too

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Originally Posted by Shin96

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Like I said earlier, I don't have enough information to judge the upcoming iteration. I'm mainly worried about what they're going to do with the defensive actions.

I know that some people wanted a new combo. There's a few problems with this. First, with about three new abilities each expansion, that's your expansion worth of new abilities right there. Not terribly exciting. Second, there's an action budget for every job. If you look at the tanks, DRK and WAR have 23 job specific buttons, GNB has 25, and PLD has 26. (For reference, BLU's create your own job action list has 24 slots.) You can see that they've tried to further merge down some actions on GNB already by turning Gnashing Fang into a one button combo. I wouldn't be surprised if PLD had some button merges as well. The question is what do you give up to fit that extra combo in? Maybe Salted Earth? If we're going to be trading in new actions for old ones, I'd rather see something with a bit of synergy with existing actions, especially Living Shadow.

Nobody used the 'branching combo' in 4.0. It's not like you were adding in a bit of variety with Power Slash. The addition of Shirk meant that you just didn't have to use it. I'll accept that 4.0 removed a dps combo that may have provided a bit of variation in your rotation. But the one-combo job meme actually dates back to Stormblood's launch, used mostly by other tanks who wanted to prove that the job wasn't as complex as it once was. I think a lot of the drive to add on more combos stems from a reaction to those taunts. So none of this sentiment is new, and the overwhelming majority of DRK mains hated the Stormblood iteration with a passion when it was out. Most of the actions that people wax nostalgic about were actually removed during the job changes at Stormblood's launch. Shadowbringers just streamlined and added quality of life changes to what was left over of the job after Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

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We can't comment on their internal decision-making process, but I've seen plenty of changes previously suggested here or on reddit before they get implemented in game. They just don't always acknowledge that they're looking at something before they do it. The 4.3 revision pretty much came straight from the forum feedback, as did the removal of Dark Arts. The removal of tank stances followed after a series of discussions here as well. Reworks to Raw Intuition as well as the upcoming Onslaught change were things that I've seen players specifically ask for before being brought in. The movement towards MCH being more Edgar themed to bring in some series nostalgia was also something that I've seen asked for on these forums dating back to Stormblood. We've had multiple discussions in these forums more recently about rewarding timed mitigation moves, so it'll be interesting to see what comes out of that as well.

I don't think the issue is their awareness of feedback, it's more that you can't tell what's being looked at and how they're processing that information, because there just isn't that two way back and forth. And sometimes things get implemented with good intentions in a less than ideal way.

The job actions trailer is just showing the new flashy things.
PLD got 3 new flashy spells. But I really doubt that it will add much to the job aside from looking even flashier.
So I don't see a reason for DRK to complain they did not get anything.

They obviously pick a job or two for a full rework in each expansion.
Dark Knight already got it in 5.0, so IMO it would have been surprising to see it completely reworked already.

I still believe that a lot can be done for the current DRK with simple cooldowns changes and the addition of some more oGCDs.
Delirium becoming a 60s recast is already a really good improvement IMO.

Dark Knight is fine guys, lol

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

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I know they look at our feedback in a way on aonther, idk about the influencers part bcs if that's true it would be extremly unfair that my fav job changes depend of the WAR fanboy xenoxys vex.

To be more precise i have with SE a constant feeling that DRK feedback it's never taken in to real consideration due how they decide to make changes on the job, you can look at any other job in the game and see they get way more accurate ajustments and reworks, look at summoner how finally get those good loocking primals attacks that ppl have been asking but when DRK spend 2 years complaing for example about Inner delirium that even the JP forum hate and request changes on the skill bcs Bloodspiller is not fun to spam what they do? keep it of course, i don't know who they operate from inside but for me is they have something against DRK, im so tiring to fight for this job and don't even get the most fair and justificable complains that can be solve easily like Delirium or living dead, they have zero consideration specially when they say they don't want to bring HW complexity and such and then proceed to show PLD new fantastic magic swrod combo on top of what they have.

Probably im just to burn right now of dealing with this for so long but i just wanted the same dedicated treatment other jobs get, i guess thats was just much to ask.

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Originally Posted by shao32

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Well a streamer brings in new players, which translates into profit for SE. The gaming market has opened up to all kinds of people, and the majority of them are casuals. It's debatable that alot of people we have today will stick around after Endwalker, some of them may quit earlier, but regardless, that company is going to rake in massive profits. Every company nowadays is getting greedier progressively. FFXIV is definitely an exception to the rule as SE is offering a solid product here for the most part.

The reason we are on the losing side is because your average FFXIV player doesn't necessarily care all that much about gameplay. On average, you're not going to find an expert on rotational experience. It's incredibly easy to satisfy a person with lower standards; they just want to have fun. Dumb it down, make it easy. The fact that alot of players wanted Male Viera more than a Deep Dungeon or gameplay changes speaks volumes for itself. That's your core demographic and any company's blessing in terms of a customer base.

I think we got disappointed so much by ShB that we ended up with a jaded view on future aspects involving this job. Wait it out, see what happens. If it's anything like 5.0.. At least Scholars are joining us, that's something.

I wasn't angry with the live letter, just sort of left going...hmm what's the point? I was hoping they would try and find some sort of compromise between the 5.0 DRK design and the HWS design since so many people loved it but we got a cracker with nothing on it...I will be maining WAR in EW as their changes are gonna feel really good....I think lol

Yeah it just seems to early to tell. I hope bloodspiller can't be spammed but is stronger, DRK getting reasonable way to sustain themselves, updated bloodspiller animation, living dead to not be so punishing, and rework of dark mind and dark missionary.

Honestly, If they're gonna build off of 5.0 DRK, I'd only want some simple changes. It's not the worst base to build off of, just needs some adjustment.

Here's some of the changes I want:

Delirium allows for free Edge of Shadows/Flood of Shadows instead of Bloodspiller/Quietus. This would make make it less of an Inner Release, more of an actual Delirium that would fit DRK as the oGCD tank

A weaker, lower level TBN that unlocks at lvl 50 or 60; could just be like a 5% or 10% shield. DRK doesn't have any MP management below 70, it's just press Edge of Darkness when you reach 3k MP. I love raids like BCoB and Alexander, but DRK is just such a bore to play during those raids because it's missing the reason people play it in the first place.

Since Delirium already grants free EoS/FoS, make TBN grant a free Bloodspiller/Quietus instead of EoS/FoS when broken. Lower level TBN would grant a free EoD/FoD to fill for lack of Bloodspiller/Quietus

Lower Blood Weapon CD to 30 or 40 seconds. Maybe bring back BW haste; it would be a nice touch but I wouldn't really kill for it.

These would be a good start towards making DRK have a bit of identity again. As you can see it's mainly just leveling and Delirium that I have an issue with. I would want to dive into Living Shadow but I seriously doubt they're gonna do anything with that.

I don't really have a point of reference with old DRK since I am new to the game, but the one thing I would love to get reworked is Delirium, it's so... Boring and forgetful, spamming Bloodspiller/Quietus doesn't feel good at all.

Another thing that I would love to see is that animation where your character kinda puts their shoulder against the target and casts this huge blast with their hand return, it's such a cool animation which I assume is from a removed ability.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

Another thing that I would love to see is that animation where your character kinda puts their shoulder against the target and casts this huge blast with their hand return, it's such a cool animation which I assume is from a removed ability.

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Oh you're talking about Powerslash huh? Hell yeah, it was such a nice looking ability. Regardless of how little it was used. https://youtu.be/YAtKfa-Mz90

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

Another thing that I would love to see is that animation where your character kinda puts their shoulder against the target and casts this huge blast with their hand return, it's such a cool animation which I assume is from a removed ability.

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That was Power Slash, got removed because people literally never used their Enmity combos.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

That was Power Slash, got removed because people literally never used their Enmity combos.

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Ahh, still though, the animation was really good, gives off some huge Eldritch Knight vibes, I only saw it in a video showing a bunch of removed abilities but it didn't really name them.

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Originally Posted by Garnix

The job actions trailer is just showing the new flashy things.
PLD got 3 new flashy spells. But I really doubt that it will add much to the job aside from looking even flashier.
So I don't see a reason for DRK to complain they did not get anything.

They obviously pick a job or two for a full rework in each expansion.
Dark Knight already got it in 5.0, so IMO it would have been surprising to see it completely reworked already.

I still believe that a lot can be done for the current DRK with simple cooldowns changes and the addition of some more oGCDs.
Delirium becoming a 60s recast is already a really good improvement IMO.

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Were honestly not asking for a full rework.. were asking for like 2-3 things to better the class that is all..

1)rework Living Dead.. we can't use our "oh no" button to save ourselves because without a healer we die.. were the only tank that can't survive their own save me from death move solo.. just keep us from dieing or make all attacks recover hp.. anything that's not.. haha you died after it.

2)Delirium need to change away from being a copy of Inner release.. I picked up DRK upon reaching Ishgard in my own play thru after being a bard all ARR and it kept me a tank main since then.. I personally didn't like WAR it was my last tank to level and always will be.. but now DRK is just WAR lite and its killed the class for me.. when ShB dropped I got DRK to first dungeon before changing to GNB because I didn't wanna be a WAR..

Those are only ones I wanted.. I know some wanted a 3rd being the return of original cooldown an use of Abysall Drain an Salted Earth an I agree too but that's not as important as other 2

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

Ahh, still though, the animation was really good, gives off some huge Eldritch Knight vibes, I only saw it in a video showing a bunch of removed abilities but it didn't really name them.

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It was certainly a more interesting animation than, well, all but Bloodspiller and Scourge, imo.

(DRK's Cross-classes Skull Sunder was the funniest shit ever, though.)

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

Were honestly not asking for a full rework.. were asking for like 2-3 things to better the class that is all..

1)rework Living Dead.. we can't use our "oh no" button to save ourselves because without a healer we die.. were the only tank that can't survive their own save me from death move solo.. just keep us from dieing or make all attacks recover hp.. anything that's not.. haha you died after it.

2)Delirium need to change away from being a copy of Inner release.. I picked up DRK upon reaching Ishgard in my own play thru after being a bard all ARR and it kept me a tank main since then.. I personally didn't like WAR it was my last tank to level and always will be.. but now DRK is just WAR lite and its killed the class for me.. when ShB dropped I got DRK to first dungeon before changing to GNB because I didn't wanna be a WAR..

Those are only ones I wanted.. I know some wanted a 3rd being the return of original cooldown an use of Abysall Drain an Salted Earth an I agree too but that's not as important as other 2

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I get that yes. But if you look at the new 6.0 Delirium, it only gives 3 charges. So, in a way, it's not really different from PLD's atonement either. It's just the tank design they are going for. (And since the GNB continuation combo is now on one button, it's a fancier Delirium in a way too.)
I really believe that the issue is not Delirium but the burst window as a whole: the cooldowns on all the oGCDs are way too long.
(it still baffles me that they never changed living dead despite all the feedback they got about it over the years....)

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Originally Posted by Garnix

I really believe that the issue is not Delirium but the burst window as a whole: the cooldowns on all the oGCDs are way too long.

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I agree the if they, at the very least, reduced the cooldown timers on DRK then it would would already be a ton more fun. I still think Delirium is part of the problem though, spamming one GCD on a class that revolves around using multiple oGCDs just doesn't sit right. As I stated before, it really just needs to make EoS free for a set amount of time. Hopefully Blood Weapon and Carve and Spit get booted down to 30 seconds, and Salted Earth to like 45 seconds in EW. Those would be some fantastic changes. Kinda worried about the whole new EoS -> Dark Passenger combo action though. If that's the case, then the opener is just gonna be spamming that combo until you're out of MP. Hopefully it's on some sort of charge system to prevent spam.

I can agree that ShB Delirious Inner Release is trash, of course.
Delirium in EW aught to either just be a MP restore again, like in SB, minus the issue of that version was too much MP, or.. I like the idea that Sazuzaki has, to make Delirium remove the MP cost of Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow, rather than bloody Delirious Inner Release and BloodSpiller/Quietus spam.

And I agree with the reduction of CDs. EW Abyssal Drain aught to have a 30sec CD, and a better single-target self-heal potential.

Salted Earth aught to just revert back its old superior power; 45sec CD and potency 75 ticks for 21 seconds, where-as the current is a 90sec CD and potency 60 ticks for 15 seconds...

As for EW Carve and Spit... more than a CD reduction, I would just love if the action was a actual Three-Fold attack [again: false memory, ignore.]... triple MP restoration and a potency of 1350, across three potency 450 hits, is what I would like to see Carve and Spit do.[why that action had taken the Lv60 slot, but now the skill is lousy and a corpse of its former glory...: false memory, ignore.]

And then, of course... Blood Weapon. EW Blood Weapon needs just one thing, a extension to the duration, but I would be more than fine with a CD reduction.

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Originally Posted by Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai

As for EW Carve and Spit... more than a CD reduction, I would just love if the action was a actual Three-Fold attack again... The triple MP restoration and potency of 1350, across three potency 450 hits, is why that action had taken the Lv60 slot, but now the skill is lousy and a corpse of its glory days...

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C&S has never been a 3-hit attack in the history of its existence. it's only ever done a single damage hit, the textbox is extremely misleading; it merely describes the animation, not how the attack actually functioned. go back and watch literally any DRK POV of HW & SB content to see; you only see a single damage tick. It never gave triple Mp ticks or 1350 potency.

In fact, C&S is literally the strongest its ever been in SHB.

In HW & SB, it was either a:
1) 100 potency attack that gave a bit of mana
2) 450 potency hit if enhanced with Dark Arts, but removed the MP effect.

Now in SHB, it straight up does 450 potency, costs 0 MP to get said potency, and gives MP. It's far from a corpse; it literally stands above every iteration that came before it in terms of effective power by taking all the good and leaving behind any downsides. Now whether you agree if the skill is interesting or not after it lost its DA interaction is a different story.

Remember that on Heavensward 450 potency atack was huge, now with the powercreep has become "not bad but there are things that hit much harder". Not mentioning that VIT giving as much atack as STR gave tanks their power peak compared to everyone else

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

C&S has never been a 3-hit attack in the history of its existence. it's only ever done a single damage hit, the textbox is extremely misleading; it merely describes the animation, not how the attack actually functioned. go back and watch literally any DRK POV of HW & SB content to see; you only see a single damage tick. It never gave triple Mp ticks or 1350 potency.

In fact, C&S is literally the strongest its ever been in SHB.

In HW & SB, it was either a:
1) 100 potency attack that gave a bit of mana
2) 450 potency hit if enhanced with Dark Arts, but removed the MP effect.

Now in SHB, it straight up does 450 potency, costs 0 MP to get said potency, and gives MP. It's far from a corpse; it literally stands above every iteration that came before it in terms of effective power by taking all the good and leaving behind any downsides. Now whether you agree if the skill is interesting or not after it lost its DA interaction is a different story.

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Darn it... It has been 4 and a half years, already...So it will not surprise me if my memory betrays me, since I always had memory issues... ignore what I said and put it on a Wish-list, then. It would be great to see a Three-fold attack that is a actual triple-hit, rather than just to look like one and be a fake.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

1. What issue with Dark Knight do you have since 5.0?

2. Is there a viable solution to your problem? If so, write it down.

3. What did you like about previous iterations of Dark Knight?

4. How did DRK capture your interest while playing FFXIV?

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I'll drop my 2 cents in here, despite the fact that the devs all but confirmed our 2 cents mean nothing, no matter how many piles of cents are gathered.


1. many glaring issues exist that have all been stated ad nauseum here, but I believe the strongest issue is the lack of interplay between the resources in the kit, which is what leads to the complaint about butchered job identity. after all, can you really call DRK the """resource management tank with active decision making""" when it can no longer do either of those things beyond giving some TBN?

as for my biggest PERSONAL gripe, it has to be with the abysmal leveling kit. I might be in the minority here, but I do a TON of synced content with friends, and never did I once complain in the past because the job was FUN and FUNCTIONAL from lv 15 to lv 70. Nowadays, the disjointed leveling kit makes DRK feel like it has no gameplay identity or impactful contribution below lv 80.
lv 50 DRK absolutely uncontested snore tier due to missing basically everything that makes DRK a DRK. lv 60 DRK is only barely above snore tier due to salted and abyssal drain (both which need a return to glory), and lv 70 DRK missing Dark Missionary as well as Stalwart Soul being relegated to lv 72 is UNACCEPTABLE, for both players who run Ultimates, as well as players who just like to do dailies with the homies.

2. there are many viable solutions given the current build, all of which I've been decrying about for the last 2 years.
for one, if BW was put on a 30s cooldown and make it unlock at the same time as Flood, we would be able to generate much more resource, as well as being able to learn to spend resource AT THE SAME TIME.
if stalwart, TBN, and missionary were moved to earlier lvls (maybe something like SS lv40, TBN lv45, DM lv68 respectively) the kit would have much more engaging for the newer players. lastly, if potencies need to be """reworked""" so that """tanks don't do so much damage""" why did they bother with that number crunch, as opposed to giving us MORE ACCESS TO OUR TOOLS MORE OFTEN?

3. what I loved about previous DRK was the ever satisfying gameplay loop of spending resource to empower abilities via Dark Arts.
I will forever love the animation, sound design, and the empowering feeling I got from knowing that if i DA'd that Dark Mind then my healer wouldnt have to worry about healing me, especially when I could empower souleater to do more damage (which increased the healing potency) or I could choose to spend mana on Abyssal Drain so that my healer could focus on whatever rotation they used to have (RIP).
I loved how the old kit had so much interplay between spending mana to gain blood, spending blood to gain DPS, spending mana to gain DPS, and spending blood to gain mana. the entire loop was so satisfying that I was able to grind 2 different characters to max cap DRK without being bored.

4. DRK caught my interest because I played back in ARR during 2.1, and as a PLD player I liked tanking but did not really enjoy the simplicity of PLD nor the aesthetic of WAR (but I did LOVE how WAR had that THICCCCC HP pool back then, which was a cool way of mitigating damage that was different from PLD's base def modifier) so when DRK came out and I picked it up, i sucked ass with it but kept going because it was ENGAGING to a tee, and the gameplay loop of resource building and resource spending while maintaining aggro, keeping cooldowns cycling, dodging aoes, all while making sure teammates didnt kill themselves by giving them a powerful shield, made DRK my go to job for any content. hell its the whole reason this alt exists!

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

3. what I loved about previous DRK was the ever satisfying gameplay loop of spending resource to empower abilities via Dark Arts.
I will forever love the animation, sound design, and the empowering feeling I got from knowing that if i DA'd that Dark Mind then my healer wouldnt have to worry about healing me, especially when I could empower souleater to do more damage (which increased the healing potency) or I could choose to spend mana on Abyssal Drain so that my healer could focus on whatever rotation they used to have (RIP).
I loved how the old kit had so much interplay between spending mana to gain blood, spending blood to gain DPS, spending mana to gain DPS, and spending blood to gain mana. the entire loop was so satisfying that I was able to grind 2 different characters to max cap DRK without being bored.

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This. I loved the fast pace and juggling Blood into MP into Blood again. I can still remember even dungeons being fun simply because of it — I'd pull the whole hallway between 1st and 2nd boss in Scalla and just survive by rotating BP+DA+AD into TBN+Quietus, mashing cooldowns, running out of AoEs constantly, all that stuff. Blood Weapon+Delirium for single target, almost 20 seconds of getting a 2.2 GCD, Dark Arts every second ability to spend all that MP I'm getting, the APM was awesome.

Right now I'm stuck with a 2.37 GCD (the highest I can go before it becomes actually uncomfortable is 2.4), can't actually die in a dungeon unless the healer falls asleep, and it's less of my responsibility to survive, and more of theirs to keep me alive while I'm basically DPS with more HP. Enmity is non-existent, mitigation in non-Savage content feels barely necessary outside of tankbusters, etc.

Also gonna drop my full opinion even though I agree with Bundy and that the devs are set in their ways.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

1. What issue with Dark Knight do you have since 5.0?

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• Delirium being a copy/paste of Inner Release sucks and I don't find it interesting to spam one button for five GCDs.
• Blood Weapon is jank because it lasts for less than the stated 10s, making it difficult to get the full 5 GCDs in, a stark difference compared to Delirium which lasts for ~11s.
• The Job feels slower compared to previous iterations because of the lack of Haste on Blood Weapon now. Going fast is fun, that's why MNKs are a bunch of crack addicts hopped up on Grease Lightning. Going fast good, going slow bad.
• Living Dead is still terrible and kills the DRK when it fades. It requires significantly more Healer resources compared to the other Tanks, such that even if it's used to invuln during a Tank swap, the DRK still needs to get fully healed while the rest just don't care once they've moved into the OT position.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

2. Is there a viable solution to your problem? If so, write it down.

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Blood Weapon is the easiest to fix, give DRK a 10% Haste and adjust the duration so that a DRK can get an appropriate amount of GCDs in, possibly the same 3k MP and 50 Blood, whatever, the goal is to go fast. Additionally, merge Skill Speed and Spell Speed so DRK can get the appropriate amount of GCDs in during AoE situations as well. Feels real bad that our Spells don't get that sweet 3k MP and 50 Blood.

For Living Dead, remove the whole "heal to full or the DRK dies" garbage. It's a blackhole for Healer resources, just let it time out after 10s and the DRK becomes vulnerable again, I'd say it's longer cooldown keeps it balanced against Holmgang.

For Delirium, much harder to say. Pressing Delirium to spam Bloodspiller is boring as hell, but other, smarter players have highlighted the issue with SB Delirium and the sheer amount of excess resources it generated. I think it'd be neat to see something similar to Banner of Honored Sacrifice from Bozja, but the HP drain would be guaranteed to piss off Healers so that's a bad idea, even if it's thematically appropriate to past iterations of DRK in the franchise.

Maybe give Delirium the following:

• Grant 10% Haste and Damage Up
• Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, and Souleater generate +10 Blood
• Bloodspiller and Quietus generate +1,000 MP
• Delirium drains MP while active
• Lasts for a maximum of 15s, ends early if MP bottoms out

This would make Delirium similar to the old Darkside, draining MP but providing bonus damage that players want to dump their oGCDs into. Players can maintain Delirium through their combos by doing their 123 to generate more Blood and spending that Blood to regain MP. If used during Blood Weapon, players will obviously be getting even more Blood and MP, making it far more likely they stay in Delirium for the maximum duration, and the two Haste buffs will stack to grant the DRK 15% Haste. Proper resource management would be necessary, to make sure players have a good amount of MP and Blood banked before Delirium so it doesn't end early. It might not play nice with DRK as the main Tank though, because using TBN would mean a huge chunk of your MP gone, but a workable solution to that would be the Dark Arts effect allowing the usage of an Empowered Bloodspiller/Quietus that restores double or triple MP under Delirium. Either way, it checks the boxes of going fast, encouraging resource management, interplay between Blood and MP, and providing a burst phase to the DRK through the bonus damage.

Despite all that, SE would absolutely toss the above in the garbage bin, likely deeming it too complex for players, especially when players at a low skill level are sitting there with a 4s Delirium saying the skill sucks so it's likely on the very low end of what SE would consider viable, if at all. Anyways, I just know that spamming a single button is uninteresting and does not make for engaging gameplay to me.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

3. What did you like about previous iterations of Dark Knight?

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In the past, I liked the aforementioned Haste on Blood Weapon, I felt it made the Job more interesting, standing out as the "fast" Tank compared to PLD and WAR. Resource management was also more interesting, making use of both MP and Blood to great effect in AoE situations. Spend MP on TBN, it breaks and generates 50 Blood that's used on a Dark Arts Quietus to restore a hell of a lot of MP, the MP is used on Dark Arts Abyssal Drain to restore HP, Salted Earth generates even more Blood for another Quietus into another TBN, so on so forth. The interplay between MP and Blood worked, and that's now gone since TBN just refunds MP through a "free" Edge of Shadow and does nothing for your Blood. Resource management wasn't perfect though because of the shitloads of MP DRK had which led to the whole Dark Arts spam, but I feel like MP cost adjustments could've brought that in line rather than nuking the whole gameplay system from orbit. Rather than tossing the problem in the bin, ask why it is a problem and then work out a solution from there. Feels like SE just gave up and didn't want to problem solve.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

4. How did DRK capture your interest while playing FFXIV?

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Again, the aforementioned speed and resource management. The animations and the Job Story also drew me in, God knows you'll find people preaching about the Story everywhere you look. TBN was also incredibly enticing with the big shield it provided, but nowadays it almost feels like a crutch because of how good it is compared to Sheltron and Heart of Stone.

Anyways, that's my two cents on DRK. I loved it for the speed, the resource management, and how Blood and MP worked together. I'll have to see the full list of tooltips for DRK once the Media Tour drops, but I ain't holding my breath when it comes to Delirium since they reduced it to 60s, likely to keep it in line with Inner Release. My pessimism isn't good, but damn is it difficult to stay optimistic.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

For Delirium, much harder to say. Pressing Delirium to spam Bloodspiller is boring as hell, but other, smarter players have highlighted the issue with SB Delirium and the sheer amount of excess resources it generated. I think it'd be neat to see something similar to Banner of Honored Sacrifice from Bozja, but the HP drain would be guaranteed to piss off Healers so that's a bad idea, even if it's thematically appropriate to past iterations of DRK in the franchise.

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Damn I would love old Darkside to come back in the form of Delirium. The constant MP management would be so much fun.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

Damn I would love old Darkside to come back in the form of Delirium. The constant MP management would be so much fun.

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While I enjoyed (the general idea behind) those MP management aspects, wouldn't this roughly amount to the old Riddle of Fire controversy? You'd essentially be reducing apm, through MP-spender casts, in favor of a flat damage buff into which all your oGCDs bankable to every n seconds (Darkside's cooldown) must be fit. The only "fun" part, so far as I can guess would be to not bottom out early on MP despite trying to maximize damage buff multiplicity alongside raid buffs.

On paper, that's... cool(?), I guess. But in practice? MP no longer equates to our capacity to deal any AoE whatsoever (or significant self-healing or full-value mitigation, etc.) and we no longer have the Darkside toggle to actually play around that mechanic over downtime. As a burst CD alone, would it even really remain "MP management"?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I enjoyed (the general idea behind) those MP management aspects, wouldn't this roughly amount to the old Riddle of Fire controversy? You'd essentially be reducing apm, through MP-spender casts, in favor of a flat damage buff into which all your oGCDs bankable to every n seconds (Darkside's cooldown) must be fit. The only "fun" part, so far as I can guess would be to not bottom out early on MP despite trying to maximize damage buff multiplicity alongside raid buffs.

On paper, that's... cool(?), I guess. But in practice? MP no longer equates to our capacity to deal any AoE whatsoever (or significant self-healing or full-value mitigation, etc.) and we no longer have the Darkside toggle to actually play around that mechanic over downtime. As a burst CD alone, would it even really remain "MP management"?

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Oh yeah, I was just imagining it in game and how much I would personally enjoy it. Of course, it would require some sort of revamp of the entire kit (which again, I would love but the job doesn't need another rework atm) so I don't think we'll ever really see it again. One can dream though.

If i had any complains about Dark Knight, it would be the following Abilities even being a thing (warning: unpopular opinions incoming): The Blackest Night and Delirium.

I dont think i need to explain any reason why anyone sane would not dislike Delirium, as mentioned already, its just Inner Release in disguise and that thing belongs to either WAR or into the trash. Personally, i'd rather wish that Dark Knight had something more unique instead of this. If i had to make a suggestion, then i would say to replace it with something similar to Last Resort from FFXI, where the DRK gets +15% Damage up and -15% defense (can only be used below 50% HP and with a somewhat long cooldown, to balance it out a little) which lasts until either the DRK dies or goes back to over 50% HP.

as for Blackest Night, i think it isnt a Ability a Dark Knight should have. It's not that is by any means a bad Ability, but it is something that conflicts with the Ideology of the Job. Instead of it being a Shield, make it a Buff that can be used on a allied target for which the Dark Knight is able to take the full damage of the next hit once during its duration.

"But Anhra, a tank is suppoest to stay alive and not to get himself killed with his own Abilities!". I know, but hear me out on this. My point with those kind of ideas is, that Dark Knight's gimmick should be something like "gets stronger the closer to death it is and that Power comes at a prize". This could be backed up further by a trait called "Desperate Blows" for which the DRK gets increased dmg when low on HP at the cost of having a longer GCD on the basic Rotation (but also stronger MP/HP regen effects from Syphon Strike and Soul Eater).

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Originally Posted by Anhra

"But Anhra, a tank is suppoest to stay alive and not to get himself killed with his own Abilities!". I know, but hear me out on this. My point with those kind of ideas is, that Dark Knight's gimmick should be something like "gets stronger the closer to death it is and that Power comes at a prize". This could be backed up further by a trait called "Desperate Blows" for which the DRK gets increased dmg when low on HP at the cost of having a longer GCD on the basic Rotation (but also stronger MP/HP regen effects from Syphon Strike and Soul Eater).

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Hence why it's a terrible idea. Having your damage output tied to being closer to death when another role's job is seeking to keep you alive & healthy is asking for all types of ridiculous arguments to erupt, and just make healers despise playing with DRKs.

Not to mention the very nature of wanting lower HP will lead DRKs to want to MT or to intentionally eat AOEs to lower their health pool. For a tank, it's extremely bad design for any damage source to be tied to their HP. Even on a dps that doesn't have to actively absorb damage tying damage to HP would be a bad idea.

Not to mention how would you balance it? If the DRK's damage is balanced around being in this close to death state, you'd have a severely underpowered tank when its not, compared to 3 tanks that do just fine at any HP level. Balance its dps outside of this near death state and DRK will utterly annihilate the other 3 tanks dps wise when it suddenly comes in with huge damage boosts.

Trying to bring DRK's ideology from other FF games is pointless here. DRK is a tank in FF14; it's ideology in previous games simply doesn't work on a tank job.

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Originally Posted by Sazuzaki

Oh yeah, I was just imagining it in game and how much I would personally enjoy it. Of course, it would require some sort of revamp of the entire kit (which again, I would love but the job doesn't need another rework atm) so I don't think we'll ever really see it again. One can dream though.

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I think we've long since gone into the era in which dreaming about the job is more fun and exciting than actually playing it, so that's quite understandable.

Feel free to use me for a sounding board for those larger pipedream reworks, btw.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

If i had any complains about Dark Knight, it would be the following Abilities even being a thing (warning: unpopular opinions incoming): The Blackest Night and Delirium.

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What I do not like about The Blackest Night is the current if-broken bonus. I view a protective barrier that needs to be broken, for a offensive gain, as a liability and a bad design, while I think that a defensive action should not have a liability connection to offense.

My own thoughts on the if-broken bonus are that it should either be a further defensive buff, or a self-heal effect.

As for Anhra's idea, I think that.. at the least, to convert The Blackest Night from defensive to supportive, could be a idea of interest... While, as for Anhra's idea in and of itself, since Paladin has a "take damage intended for the target ally" ability, it is not as if that idea for The Blackest Night would not work...

In regard to for the Dark Knight to have a longer GCD than the normal 2.50... I would only agree with that if Dark Knight has a lot of good oGCD options, to the point of double-weave or single-weave between every GCD, since that would make double-weave more or ease; and the illusion of speed from oGCD weave, is also better than speed from faster GCD, any way...

For a example... 2.40 GCD and double-weave as a constant, between every single GCD, would create a illusion of speed that would be a approximate of around one attack every 0.80 seconds, to which GCD can never be brought that low, and that would be one-fifth of a second faster than literal DPS.
In the case of a GCD extension, the approximate speed, I think.. would only increase to around one attack every 0.90 seconds, which is still faster than GCD could ever go, and still faster than literal DPS, so I would be fine with it.

As a side-note.. I think that single-weave feels a bit too slow, except for Monk.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think we've long since gone into the era in which dreaming about the job is more fun and exciting than actually playing it, so that's quite understandable.

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...Last, I hate how true this is... I have far more fun to work on and put progress into my Dark Knight re-design/re-work pet project, than I ever did when I play the game as the Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Hence why it's a terrible idea. Having your damage output tied to being closer to death when another role's job is seeking to keep you alive & healthy is asking for all types of ridiculous arguments to erupt, and just make healers despise playing with DRKs.

Not to mention the very nature of wanting lower HP will lead DRKs to want to MT or to intentionally eat AOEs to lower their health pool. For a tank, it's extremely bad design for any damage source to be tied to their HP. Even on a dps that doesn't have to actively absorb damage tying damage to HP would be a bad idea.

Not to mention how would you balance it? If the DRK's damage is balanced around being in this close to death state, you'd have a severely underpowered tank when its not, compared to 3 tanks that do just fine at any HP level. Balance its dps outside of this near death state and DRK will utterly annihilate the other 3 tanks dps wise when it suddenly comes in with huge damage boosts.

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As a Tank in general, you have by the norm, 3 Buttons that serve to reduce incoming damage, as well as a "i cant die now - button". If Living Dead gets a proper Rework on this, i see no issues with the idea i mentioned. The Point of a Playstyle like this is to reward People knowing when to take a risk, and when you should not. And keep in mind that a DRK wont stay ever for long in that state of being low HP, since both Healers, as well as the boosted HP recovery from Soul Eater, will bring him eventually back to +50% HP. And if that trait proves to be too Overpowered regardless, Numbers can still be adjusted on the matter at hand.

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Originally Posted by Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai

I view a protective barrier that needs to be broken, for a offensive gain, as a liability and a bad design, while I think that a defensive action should not have a liability connection to offense.

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Just some few cents:

Personally, I wouldn't mind that (and it might even seem uniquely interesting) if we just had more means by which to manipulate whether it'd break (or, more directly put, whether we'd get its reward) and/or some real reason to use it even when it wouldn't necessarily break (such as for an anti-knockback or anti-debuff when used against lighter damage).

That doesn't have to come from anything specific to DRK, even. That could easily come from role-wide changes towards less passive mitigation and much more frequent and manipulable instances of active mitigation. That could come from fight design. That could come from mechanics specifically being skill-shots that you wouldn't normally intercept an additional count of (but against which TBN on the first prevents the vulnerability debuff). Etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just some few cents:

Personally, I wouldn't mind that (and it might even seem uniquely interesting) if we just had more means by which to manipulate whether it'd break (or, more directly put, whether we'd get its reward) and/or some real reason to use it even when it wouldn't necessarily break (such as for an anti-knockback or anti-debuff when used against lighter damage).

That doesn't have to come from anything specific to DRK, even. That could easily come from role-wide changes towards less passive mitigation and much more frequent and manipulable instances of active mitigation. That could come from fight design. That could come from mechanics specifically being skill-shots that you wouldn't normally intercept an additional count of (but against which TBN on the first prevents the vulnerability debuff). Etc., etc.

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It could just have better design, yeh... My first two thoughts would be a "when the duration expires" if not broken bonus, as well as a if-broken bonus, and then just pick which effect you intend every The Blackest Night cast, while as for a means to control when the Barrier breaks, I just think of the fact that many other versions of the FF Franchise Dark Knight had self-harm skills, of which the Dark Knight could use such a action to break the barrier their self...

Some things worth noting:
1) Reaper has an ability called Arcane Crest which is functionally similar to TBN.
Arcane Crest: Absorb incoming damage up to 10% of maximum HP. Duration 5 s, recast 30 s. If shield is nullified, all party members within 15 yalms gain Activated Crest (Restore target's HP every time they attack; 100 healing potency, Duration 15 seconds). If even a DPS job has something like this, it's not a stretch to see what direction they're going to be taking tanks.
2) "Upcoming Adjustments: Tank
Using defensive enhancements at optimal times will grant greater benefits."
2) While TBN was shown in the job action preview and seems to have the same duration, we didn't see it being used on another player.
3) The new bubble action can be used on both yourself (Endwalker Benchmark) and another player (job action preview).
4) PLD and WAR both have new self defensive buffs that could functionally occupy a similar space to TBN.

I suspect that we're going to see a few things here. TBN will probably replace Dark Mind as your low level defensive and probably be self-only without a cost. It'll probably have some sort of a buff tied in to breaking the bubble. TBN 2 will probably take over TBN's old role as a resource based defensive that gives you DA procs to stay DPS neutral. The fact that it has a 10 second duration attached means that it probably will be an weaker bubble than the original.

The one interesting thing about tying bubble breaks to dps and even utility buffs is that it devalues invulns. Your bubble is either redundant or it doesn't activate if you invuln it. This is the part of the live letter which both worried and intrigued me the most.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

probably be self-only without a cost

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Please no. If that's the case then I hope there will at least be a trait that makes TBN free at the level TBN 2 is unlocked. Just give me MP management at 50 or 60 man.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

As a Tank in general, you have by the norm, 3 Buttons that serve to reduce incoming damage, as well as a "i cant die now - button". If Living Dead gets a proper Rework on this, i see no issues with the idea i mentioned. The Point of a Playstyle like this is to reward People knowing when to take a risk, and when you should not. And keep in mind that a DRK wont stay ever for long in that state of being low HP, since both Healers, as well as the boosted HP recovery from Soul Eater, will bring him eventually back to +50% HP. And if that trait proves to be too Overpowered regardless, Numbers can still be adjusted on the matter at hand.

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What risk & reward? You have setup a theoretical that fights not only against itself, but also fights against an entire other role. You think a DRK would even be staying <50% for longer than a GCD or two for this to matter in any capacity? Especially in raids when the moment you hit <50% you're basically getting tetra/Essential/Lustrate thrown at you? It's not a risk & reward, it's literally a repeat of the issues plaguing Living Dead, where the ability is literally out of your control. And just like Living Dead, such an ability on a tank is just going to cause arguments, issues, etc from DRKs who want to max their damage and healers who are keeping them healthy. It's clunky, it fights against itself, it fights against an entire role, and it fights against the intention of a tank to mitigate damage by rewarding you not mitigating damage to enter <50% faster and longer.

But really, it's irrelevant anyway. There's literally no way in a thousand years they'd implement an ability like that. The most they've ever done with tying stuff to HP is various 'potency decreases as HP goes down.' attacks, one of which had that effect stripped from it in SHB (Upheaval). the 'decreases' potency bit even shows the devs understand how ludicrous it is for a tank to get any sort of reward from being in a state that's opposite what they're supposed to be.