The toxicity starting to happen.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

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It's group content. If you won't take responsibility for your performance, then the group will by kicking you and finding someone who gives a crap about other peoples' time. Sounds like a single-player game is more your style, or a DnD campaign.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

You dont need a guide to read your tooltips, think about skills, or ask questions from fellow players.

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This is all very true but as for tooltips well, unless they've changed significantly since Heavensward (beyond obvious changes to the actions as a whole), they don't adequately describe what the action does or better yet how it should be used. I remember picking up Whitemage and happily spamming Cure 3 because I assumed, like in other Final Fantasy standalone games, it was simply a more potent version of Cure 2. I got called out it and eventually learned what most everything does (I have 8+ jobs at 80 so that's even more tedious) but memorizing what each action does is a difficult undertaking right out of the box, even if you started at level 1 but especially if you picked out a job that was already significally leveled like any of the added jobs since HW.

I'm not making excuses for not paying attention to or even learning them, but they are not really the best way to learn how to play (a friend of mine uses the tooltip for Suiton as a joke all time, because all it listed was 'grants Suiton' as its description) and expecting people, if not new to the game then at least new to the job to take time away from actual game play to memorize them is... probably not realistic.

But these are problems for low level duties. Expecting competence in level 80 content is certainly not wrong and yes, I think a great deal of players who ascribe to the ideal of 'I play like I want' do heavily rely on veterans to make that work but the game drops the ball on teaching the mechanics of the jobs themselves and expecting the playerbase to fill that gap has historically proven to be a flawed premise.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

This is all very true but as for tooltips well, unless they've changed significantly since Heavensward (beyond obvious changes to the actions as a whole), they don't adequately describe what the action does or better yet how it should be used. I remember picking up Whitemage and happily spamming Cure 3 because I assumed, like in other Final Fantasy standalone games, it was simply a more potent version of Cure 2. I got called out it and eventually learned what most everything does (I have 8+ jobs at 80 so that's even more tedious) but memorizing what each action does is a difficult undertaking right out of the box, even if you started at level 1 but especially if you picked out a job that was already significally leveled like any of the added jobs since HW.

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I dunno, I'd say it's pretty clear. Cure III clearly has a very small AOE effect - you can compare it to Medica II at that point - and a larger heal, but a monumental jump in mana cost, so you could reasonably infer that it's a niche case heal you should use sparingly if everyone is clustered. That said, your point is pretty fair overall, I just think that was a bad example (barring the name, which is stupid for sure); FFXIV has a crippling issue with traits and skills saying they do something that is effectively useless unless you actually sit down and use it. I had absolutely no idea how Fang and Claw / Wheeling Thrust would work on Dragoon even after going over the entire skill set when I hit 30. There's inarguably a massive issue with players refusing to put in the effort to learn even the basics of their class but the game really has to start pushing people to do it.

To this day I maintain that there should be a Hall of the Intermediate and Hall of the Master which, if nothing else, should require you to do two loops of a passable rotation on your class at around 50 and 80. Don't make it too harsh, but at least ask that the RDM player understands Black and White mana and the melee phase; the DRG their positionals and two combo loop; the PLD their magic and melee phase. Have an NPC who will perform the rotation at your request if you need to see it and give quick class tips if need be. Don't demand perfection from the players but do inform them that each class has an objectively correct way to play the core rotation and that they should at least be doing that, even if they're not optimising the small stuff.

Also, regarding the whole "toxic raider" debate going on, I think the original guy was somewhat pretentious and I disagree with him in every possible way, but this whole attitude of casual players pretending that the whole raiding community is a toxic cesspit is beyond obnoxious. The raiding community is where I've met the vast majority of the nicest, most helpful players in this game - they're happy to give advice, put in the extra effort to help and push you to improve so long as you show the effort and commitment. There's bad apples, sure, but I legitimately wonder if the people decrying the raiding community have spent any significant time in it beyond the fringes like these forums?

Anyone that has ever played a lalafell for more than 30 days on any NA server can tell you that toxicity has always existed in the game. Hell, I'd expect most direct replies to this post could reinforce that argument.

As someone who has played a lalafell since I started back in the middle of ARR, I can tell you that there's probably less overall toxic behavior in FFXIV, but what toxic behavior that is present is more potent than in any other major MMORPG. In no other online game have I seen such hatred and vitriol against any players just for what race they play in a video game ranging from public hate rallies to booting people from parties and even statics and FCs because of the race they play in this game, yet FFXIV sadly delivers on that (and in spades on some servers).

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

It's group content. If you won't take responsibility for your performance, then the group will by kicking you and finding someone who gives a crap about other peoples' time. Sounds like a single-player game is more your style, or a DnD campaign.

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Quite bold of you to suddenly assume that I don't play my class right or keep up and hold my own just because I'm arguing that discovery is more fun than following someone else who already did discovery and took the fun out of it. Yes it's group content, but that doesn't mean you can't still play the days when wiki didn't exist and games were free to be explored.

This is the reason I never got into WoW after playing it a few days. It's so old and every secret has been discovered, every play style tried and so many users that you're just another face in the crowd. In FFXIV, you can feel important, you can still travel the world and find things others haven't, secrets they may have missed, find and customize your own play-style and be more than just another mindless player signing on to check a few things and bye. Maybe that's just because it's still newer than WoW, but it just feels like there's more to explore and discover still, and the game not datamined or played to the point of being repetitive.

But that's off-topic. Point is, yes, people should read what the game offers of their class notes and quests to the point of learning their play through the game.
But it is being very controlling to tell people to go watch videos and read guides other members made if they want to learn the ropes through trial and error on their own.
I didn't say not learn their class, I just said learn it on their own through mistakes, the way we learn IRL.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Anyone that has ever played a lalafell for more than 30 days on any NA server can tell you that toxicity has always existed in the game. Hell, I'd expect most direct replies to this post could reinforce that argument.

As someone who has played a lalafell since I started back in the middle of ARR, I can tell you that there's probably less overall toxic behavior in FFXIV, but what toxic behavior that is present is more potent than in any other major MMORPG. In no other online game have I seen such hatred and vitriol against any players just for what race they play in a video game ranging from public hate rallies to booting people from parties and even statics and FCs because of the race they play in this game, yet FFXIV sadly delivers on that (and in spades on some servers).

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You saying people are harassed for playing lalafell on NA, and kicked specifically for playing lalafell? I don't know.. I find it hard to believe. I've never played lalafell, granted, but still. The most I've ever seen was jokes at a lalafell's expense, or like pat emotes or something. I've never seen anyone initiate a kick on a lalafell player for being a lalafell.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Quite bold of you to suddenly assume that I don't play my class right or keep up and hold my own just because I'm arguing that discovery is more fun than following someone else who already did discovery and took the fun out of it. Yes it's group content, but that doesn't mean you can't still play the days when wiki didn't exist and games were free to be explored.

This is the reason I never got into WoW after playing it a few days. It's so old and every secret has been discovered, every play style tried and so many users that you're just another face in the crowd. In FFXIV, you can feel important, you can still travel the world and find things others haven't, secrets they may have missed, find and customize your own play-style and be more than just another mindless player signing on to check a few things and bye. Maybe that's just because it's still newer than WoW, but it just feels like there's more to explore and discover still, and the game not datamined or played to the point of being repetitive.

But that's off-topic. Point is, yes, people should read what the game offers of their class notes and quests to the point of learning their play through the game.
But it is being very controlling to tell people to go watch videos and read guides other members made if they want to learn the ropes through trial and error on their own.
I didn't say not learn their class, I just said learn it on their own through mistakes, the way we learn IRL.

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The main issue with this is that the gulf between the way you'll likely play a class if you're playing it through your own interpretation and the way you should be playing a class can often be absolutely massive. Take healers, for example - they all spend roughly 50 levels with about 1 oGCD heal at max - the most popular one, WHM, doesn't get a single oGCD heal until level 50 itself. Given that, it's no wonder a lot of players gravitate towards playing healers totally wrong, the game builds them to rely on GCD heals which are notoriously slow when damage spikes, meaning they probably spam them and are a little too scared to push out any damage. So if you're in level 60 content and you're still doing that then it's not exactly surprising, but it's still very much not the right way to play the game. Why shouldn't the community take it upon itself to help guide people in the right direction? When the game is unintuitive there's no other avenue; you can learn something like Paladin, Dragoon or Samurai relatively fine on your own, but there's massive gameplay factors that are hugely important to most jobs which the game doesn't explain. The rate at which DoTs tick, the way healers and tanks should also focus heavily on damage, hell, even the differences between Slow, Bind and Heavy (and why that matters so much for Arms Length) - the game just never gives you the information to figure out a lot of jobs to a decent degree solely in game.

(Also, in terms of job performance, "your own play-style" just doesn't exist. There's a right way to play a class and then various degrees of "less right", a lot of which are perfectly viable if they're in the right ballpark. It's not particularly fun to hear, but it is also just a fact of the game's combat.)

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

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One thing is not having the most optimal playstyle, another things is going to a lv80 dungeon playing like if you were lv20 not doing combos, healing with your lv2 heals and single pulling without mitigating, that is toxic because out of lazyness and refusal to learn the tools the game gives you, you're making everything take more time than necessary and making other party members work harder due to you, as you have said this is an MMO, a MULTIPLAYER game, not a single player game where you can do whatever you want and it only impacts you ,so at least try, even if its out of respect and consideration to your party, and that's without mentioning high end content, there if you can't carry your weight you're out.

Also "Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit." No, when you take a role you play the role how the role is meant to be played (Because a role is that, a set of tasks that you have to do), this game does not allow you almost any freedom when it comes to skills and gameplay, you can't choose specs, stats, skills, etc, you have a fixed set, therefore there is a good way to play and a whole bunch of wrong ways, you break your combo? you are playing bad, you don't use mitigation? you're playing bad, you don't dps as healer? you're playing bad. Not only that but the "Play how I see fit" is the most selfish thing you can do, you're on a multiplayer game if you want to do whatever comes to your mind play a single player game but if you're with people try to not make their experience a living hell.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

One thing is not having the most optimal playstyle, another things is going to a lv80 dungeon playing like if you were lv20 not doing combos, healing with your lv2 heals and single pulling without mitigating, that is toxic because out of lazyness and refusal to learn the tools the game gives you, you're making everything take more time than necessary and making other party members work harder due to you, as you have said this is an MMO, a MULTIPLAYER game, not a single player game where you can do whatever you want and it only impacts you ,so at least try, even if its out of respect and consideration to your party, and that's without mentioning high end content, there if you can't carry your weight you're out.

Also "Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit." No, when you take a role you play the role how the role is meant to be played (Because a role is that, a set of tasks that you have to do), this game does not allow you almost any freedom when it comes to skills and gameplay, you can't choose specs, stats, skills, etc, you're have a fixed set, therefore there is a good way to play and as whole bunch of wrong ways, you break your combo? you are playing bad, you don't use mitigation? you're playing bad, you don't dps as healer you're playing bad. Not only that but the "Play how I see fit" is the most selfish thing you can do, you're on a multiplayer game if you want to do whatever comes to your mind play a single player game but if you're with people try to not make their experience a living hell.

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Come off your high-horse kid.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Come off your high-horse kid.

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Hoo boy, that's a 10/10 rebuttal right there, you might as well give up Wax.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Come off your high-horse kid.

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Drop the SJW attitude, Anita

What I see going on in this thread disgusts me. The attacks on other people. I wish a mod would lock this thread and ban half of you. The attacks on casual players, I'm sorry we are not the problem, maybe some of us are, but a lot of you elitist's players who think savage content is the only way to play the game.

This whole thread, which was designed to discuss the toxic environment creeping into the game as well as the racial and homophobia also creeping in the game more and more with, what seems like, every day passing.

Every game, as I stated time and time again, has its toxic environment, but this thread alone, brings all those people -yes even you reading this - to the fore front. The people in this thread are a prime example of trolls, baiting, harassments, attacks and general bullishness.

FF 14, is a game that is different then WOW or GW2, its story centric, its RP friendly, its Gay friendly and open about it. It includes every one, regardless of your gender, your race, your background. It makes YOU the central figure in the story. We should be coming together, especially in these times where the USA is all kinds of messy, where The pandemic is reaching every corner of the world. Instead what I see is children flinging feces at each other in a discussion thread demonstrating the very thing I am saying exists in game.

I am disappointed in our community. Who cares how a tank is suppose to play, who cares how they pull enemies. Wall to wall is not the way, taking your time, if you are new, and asking for help is the right way. People should not be afraid to ask for help in this game, be it in a dungeon or a raid. Never had that issue before - yet now its slapping us all in the face.

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And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super efficient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

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This right here is perfect: Get good, go read a guide, watch a video. There is no complexity to FF 14, its a simple rotation or set of, once you get that down you are good to go. The best way to do that is to play the game. Follow your class quests, MSQ. All of it makes you think about which skills are appropriate to use and even the class quests, in some cases, tell you how to use your skills.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

What I see going on in this thread disgusts me. The attacks on other people. I wish a mod would lock this thread and ban half of you. The attacks on casual players, I'm sorry we are not the problem, maybe some of us are, but a lot of you elitist's players who think savage content is the only way to play the game.

This whole thread, which was designed to discuss the toxic environment creeping into the game as well as the racial and homophobia also creeping in the game more and more with, what seems like, every day passing.

Every game, as I stated time and time again, has its toxic environment, but this thread alone, brings all those people -yes even you reading this - to the fore front. The people in this thread are a prime example of trolls, baiting, harassments, attacks and general bullishness.

FF 14, is a game that is different then WOW or GW2, its story centric, its RP friendly, its Gay friendly and open about it. It includes every one, regardless of your gender, your race, your background. It makes YOU the central figure in the story. We should be coming together, especially in these times where the USA is all kinds of messy, where The pandemic is reaching every corner of the world. Instead what I see is children flinging feces at each other in a discussion thread demonstrating the very thing I am saying exists in game.

I am disappointed in our community. Who cares how a tank is suppose to play, who cares how they pull enemies. Wall to wall is not the way, taking your time, if you are new, and asking for help is the right way. People should not be afraid to ask for help in this game, be it in a dungeon or a raid. Never had that issue before - yet now its slapping us all in the face.




This right here is perfect: Get good, go read a guide, watch a video. There is no complexity to FF 14, its a simple rotation or set of, once you get that down you are good to go. The best way to do that is to play the game. Follow your class quests, MSQ. All of it makes you think about which skills are appropriate to use and even the class quests, in some cases, tell you how to use your skills.

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well done dude. 10/10 you fixed it all our problems are now solved, god bless your infinite wisdom that allows you to be above all those toxic people with their own lives who are minding their own businesses.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

a lot of you elitist's players who think savage content is the only way to play the game.

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I like how the only defense most toxic casuals have is thinking that the "elitists" want people to do their proper rotation is on par with savage performance when that isn't even the case.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

I am disappointed in our community. Who cares how a tank is suppose to play, who cares how they pull enemies.

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Clearly people care if they're calling out those tanks on lazy/ignorant performance.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

People should not be afraid to ask for help in this game, be it in a dungeon or a raid. Never had that issue before - yet now its slapping us all in the face.

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You are delusional if you think people are afraid of asking for help rather than getting defensive when receiving criticism or advice.

I Haven't played tank for years.
I Give it another chance.
At every beginning of dungeons, I say with auto-translate phrases I am novice as a tank and inexperienced.

Then?

There is always someone - the healer - to pull more mobs or, even better, to pull ME to more mobs.

I struggle with commands - the "inexperienced" part, for those who won't read chat.
I struggle with the VIEW - even more if I have to move it all the time to check what other players pull to the fight.

And still, everytime someone decides HOW I MUST DO MY PART without any care for how I deal with it.

And people still wonder why Tank is a role in need?

When I play tank, people make it boring, frustrating, unsatisfying.

And people still wonder why Tank is a role in need?

Reminder: it is a game. Enjoy it. Have fun.
You meet people you don't know. Inexperienced ones, hardcore ones.
Your random parties will grant you new experiences of the game. Don't expect your random parties to perform exactly the same and according to your will.
Expect from your random teammates to perform their very own bests. Some will do good, some could do better and sometimes your friendly advices will help them. But don't expect them to perform exactly accordingly to your will.

Accept they're different.
Accept they don't know the game like you.
Accept they do mistakes.

Don't impose your way because you "know" how it "must" be done.

You may be very good. You may want to go faster and know it can be done faster. But you meet random players. They all don't know the game like you. They all don't master their roles like you. Still, they all want to have fun, they all want to succeed, they all want to bring something to the party.

If you can't accept their differences, just don't play with random players.

Please.

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I am disappointed in our community. Who cares how a tank is suppose to play, who cares how they pull enemies. Wall to wall is not the way, taking your time, if you are new, and asking for help is the right way. People should not be afraid to ask for help in this game, be it in a dungeon or a raid. Never had that issue before - yet now its slapping us all in the face.

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Why do you guys keep acting as if anyone is talking about new players? You're literally the only ones talking about them.
Thread after thread this topic comes up, and time after time we state we're not talking about new players in ARR dungeons or something. The focus of our complaints is (almost) always on more experienced players, generally lvl 68+ not even doing the most BASIC aspects of their class, which the game actively shoves in their face to do. I'm talking things like no DPS healers, BLM not using enochian, freestyle sam, etc.

And then people rally to their defense, and act as if they're not being toxic themselves for dragging down the experience of other players, or that we're toxic for expecting them to learn by the time they've completed the base game and have a couple expansions of content under their belt. That's not toxic, it's not elitist. And yet we're slandered or libeled for it all the same.

Drop the "new player" strawman already. I get that it's a handy deflection, but it's not what people are talking about. Its repeated use is just grating at this point.


And people are more than free to ask for help, I've never even seen anyone derided for doing so in my years of playing. I've seen and experienced plenty of folks being hounded for offering advice however. Even if it's courteous and laden with pleasantries, there's a disturbing number of people in this game who blow their top if you imply they're doing something wrong.

From past threads here people have stated they legitimately view being offered unsolicited advice as being rude in this game. Think about that, recommending a tank use their CDs on a big pull if they aren't is rude and toxic unless they request the advice first. That kind of reaction turns a lot of people (myself included now) from ever offering advice.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

This right here is perfect: Get good, go read a guide, watch a video. There is no complexity to FF 14, its a simple rotation or set of, once you get that down you are good to go. The best way to do that is to play the game. Follow your class quests, MSQ. All of it makes you think about which skills are appropriate to use and even the class quests, in some cases, tell you how to use your skills.

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Incredible, then, that people still manage to constantly mess up the absolute basics. Sorry, but not knowing your class basics at 80 is inexcusable and all too common. The problem isn't the people trying to push others to improve, the problem is the people who refuse to learn and drag down others in a group environment because they want to treat this as a singleplayer game.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

I wish a mod would lock this thread and ban half of you.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

It includes every one, regardless of your gender, your race, your background. It makes YOU the central figure in the story. We should be coming together, especially in these times where the USA is all kinds of messy, where The pandemic is reaching every corner of the world.

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https://i.imgur.com/MEsUXId.jpg

wut

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Quite bold of you to suddenly assume that I don't play my class right or keep up and hold my own

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Not to be rude, but your highest level job is lvl73, so chances are you do not play very well. Everybody thinks they're amazing at the game until they see the hard numbers and discover they actually have a lot of room for improvement. It's not an attack, it's just a statement of fact.

Also, there really is only one right way to play the game. There's no exploration or trial and error, your job has a specific optimal rotation to perform and that's that. The only adjustments come in the form of performing your rotation around the mechanical requirements of specific fights and that's really only a thing in high-end content because everything else can just be facerolled.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Not to be rude, but your highest level job is lvl73, so chances are you do not play very well.

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Because I literally only started playing August 2nd when I got the game.And then took a break from MSQ to level other classes and play adventure squads and wait on friends to level. Don't assume people can't play just because they decide to grind other things or not power through the MSQ. There's also such thing as sleep and life. I also didn't say I was the best player ever. But I hold my own and don't make people have to carry it. So your assumptions are arrogant.

And there IS exploration of trial and error. To getting to that point. Dying a lot, and learning what skills work is trial and error. Rather than read some elitest who made a guide because they did just that trial and error before you. There's NOTHING WRONG with wanting to learn things yourself. What if Youtube didn't exist, and no one made a guide or video, huh?! Stop commanding people to read others work. They aren't god of the game, and the only ones that can define how things are done. Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Because I literally only started playing August 2nd when I got the game.And then took a break from MSQ to level other classes and play adventure squads and wait on friends to level. Don't assume people can't play just because they decide to grind other things or not power through the MSQ. There's also such thing as sleep and life. I also didn't say I was the best player ever. But I hold my own and don't make people have to carry it. So your assumptions are arrogant.

And there IS exploration of trial and error. To getting to that point. Dying a lot, and learning what skills work is trial and error. Rather than read some elitest who made a guide because they did just that trial and error before you. There's NOTHING WRONG with wanting to learn things yourself. What if Youtube didn't exist, and no one made a guide or video, huh?! Stop commanding people to read others work. They aren't god of the game, and the only ones that can define how things are done. Jesus.

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Man, I love people like you. Always moaning about not wanting to be generalised while then proceeding to put other people in brackets. The guide writers I have met are some of the most patient people in an online community I have ever seen. The amount of work they put in, not only in their guide, but in keeping it updated and monitoring other people who wish to be monitored is nothing more than admirable. On the other hand, all you have done is being a hypocrite. I don't believe for a second you hold your own, because people with your attitude generally just don't. Can you be the exception? Sure, but I ain't buying it.

Not reading a job guide is just being stubborn because more often than not, these people do know better than you. Seems like you just have a difficult time accepting this reality. And even if by some chance you are such a great player that you figure out most optimal situations on your own, the chance of finding smaller optimizations still in job guides is rather large. But hey man, you do you!

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Originally Posted by Starflake

Not reading a job guide is just being stubborn because more often than not, these people do know better than you. Seems like you just have a difficult time accepting this reality

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It's not stubborn. It's wanting to play a game like we used to play games before wiki and youtube was a thing. Again, did you go out and buy every damn strategy guide or look up walkthroughs every time that you turned on your playstation? FF9 remains my favorite FF to this day, and I refused to use a walkthrough, because it takes the fun out of it.

It may be multiplayer, and endgame raids you may want to improve your quality. But I don't see why you can't take the time and learn how on your own like any game, rather than relying on someone who has crunched it down to math formulas. IF THEY COULD DO IT, why can't anyone else? Why do we have to see how they did it? Why are they the only damn person allowed to take that path and learn how on their own? I'm not arguing not to learn your job. I'm arguing to want to do it on my own vs letting someone else do it for me and hold my hand through every damn thing.

So just because someone did it, discovered it and coined it. Now they're the only one to ever get that opportunity or to do it that way? FUCK THAT.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Snip.

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Single player games are a different experience as you highlight in your second paragraph. What you do with your time in them has no effect on me. How you choose to approach these games also has no effect on me. And you may take the time to learn your class, but doing so also involves looking up a guide. I would much rather have someone in my party who takes a while longer mastering his class knowing solid information from a guide that was discussed by multiple people than some freestyle player who learns completely on his own but actually doesn't know what he is doing. You see, in my humble opinion, you and all players carry a responsibility. It's an MMO, you come into contact with other people. You have a direct influence on other people their time. It blows my mind how someone earlier said that a slower run is "just five minutes". That's a lot of minutes if you count up these slow runs. Having played this game for six to seven years, I've probably had thousands of minutes wasted by players who just don't know what they are doing because they don't care or because they think they know what they are doing.

You see, if you don't look up a guide, you run a huge risk of playing this game in complete ignorance and you will be a hinder to any decent party instead of an asset. I myself was blown away by all the things I did wrong before reading a guide, on pretty much every class I ever played in this game. You can learn at your own pace, but it must include a job guide written by people who in all likeliness do know better than you. I know I can't do what they do. It's most of the time also not one person giving you the information you need. It's hard work through multiple people theorycrafting. I am grateful for these people using up their own time just so I can have mine and others their time saved in the game.
The people writing these days more often than not theorycraft early on in their leveling experience and they know what they are doing. If you can say the same, I'd be surprised. Already level 73 in a month of playtime. I doubt you took the time they did, which means you have been going through the story and dungeons figuring stuff out on the fly and you have no idea if what you are doing is actually correct. Now you run the risk I discussed earlier. Which class do you main and what is the highest level dungeon you have done, if I may ask.

Lisen, man. If you want to go in blind and teach yourself the ropes, you better make sure you teach yourself correctly. If you don't, do not be shocked that people will call you out in late game content for being a burden. That is a fair trade off. Learning early game is fine and encouraged. But trust me when I say there is only so much most of us can learn and know and that if you want to be a better player (and in some people's case have basic competence due to learning completely wrong), you may want to combine your own findings with those of the people who discussed them to death through mathematics in multiple areas (gcds, potencies, stat attributes, cooldown allignment, ...)

I didn't claim to be great.. I just said I stay alive and hold my own without being a burden.

But again, let's try an example with this.

Let's say the game was brand new and the guide makers you worship so much just started out. Let's take a battle with mechanics.. since Ifrit hardly had any.. Titan or Garuda. NOW anyone can tell you to avoid getting pushed off the edge, or hide behind the pillars when Garuda does her one attack. And if you say first time in fight, anyone will tell you it. BUT when the game was new, and they went in blindly they didn't know that and they got to experience it, and probably went through it a million more times to learn it inside and out and then wrote their guide for others to follow...

If you want to use that guide, have fun.

I don't want to. I want to do what they did. I want to go into a boss battle and die, and learn why I died. And try the battle again and if I didn't figure it out the first time, die again. And keep dying until I figure out the mechanics of why I died, and get better until I live, and then go do that battle more times to learn how to do it more efficiently. Maybe it will never be as efficient as the pros. But at least I had the fun of learning how to not die on my own rather than WHAT I CONSIDER PERSONALLY TO MYSELF as cheating.

This game hardly has any penalty to deaths, other than mending your gear. So just because you die or wipe isn't the end of the world. It's a learning experience that they got to enjoy. So I want to enjoy too.

When I get mad enough to throw the controller, then maybe I'll look up a guide if I don't calm down first. But that hasn't happened yet. Joking.

I also didn't make that claim in the first place. Once again, you have no conceptual idea that is grounded on solid information to know if you are being a burden or not. If you did not look up a guide made by the people who do know, there is no telling for sure. Even the people who do know have needed input from other likeminded players to get where they are. Having information all by yourself has a high risk of being false information for this game in particular. False or incomplete information.

I do not worship these guide writers, I do not even interact with them. However, I appreciate their efforts. Imagine trying to slur someone for that. It again show your character. You are a toxic player. Now we are also talking about two different things. I am talking about job guides and job complexity. If you want to go into Titan normal mode blind, nobody will care. You are apparently not even aware that Weakness and Double Weakness puts a dent in your stats causing you to do way less damage on top of making the person ress you have a dent in their mana management. But yeah, you have been shifting the conversation now from job guides to fight guides, a completely different topic. You also dance around the questions that I am actually asking you. What is the class you main (SCH or Summoner) and what is the highest dungeon you have done so far.

While at this point I think "toxicity" has no real meaning and is generally used to shut down another person during a regular conversation, nonetheless we have all neccesary tools to combat it. And any real toxic player will have two options: learn their lesson and keep quiet or be banned at some point.

Is also good to remember that we all play with real players and certain rules of etiquete are involved:

- Be respectful to others and their time.

- Don't be a willing burden.

- Try your best.

- Cooperate with your party members.

And finally, if you want to have better control over your experience when playing with others then join an FC and/or make friends to play with. (This apply to everyone).

I will also say that I must be playing in another dimension or something because my experience has been pleasant most of the time. Some salt at high-end stuff from time to time but that's rare.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

I didn't claim to be great.. I just said I stay alive and hold my own without being a burden.

But again, let's try an example with this.

Let's say the game was brand new and the guide makers you worship so much just started out. Let's take a battle with mechanics.. since Ifrit hardly had any.. Titan or Garuda. NOW anyone can tell you to avoid getting pushed off the edge, or hide behind the pillars when Garuda does her one attack. And if you say first time in fight, anyone will tell you it. BUT when the game was new, and they went in blindly they didn't know that and they got to experience it, and probably went through it a million more times to learn it inside and out and then wrote their guide for others to follow...

If you want to use that guide, have fun.

I don't want to. I want to do what they did. I want to go into a boss battle and die, and learn why I died. And try the battle again and if I didn't figure it out the first time, die again. And keep dying until I figure out the mechanics of why I died, and get better until I live, and then go do that battle more times to learn how to do it more efficiently. Maybe it will never be as efficient as the pros. But at least I had the fun of learning how to not die on my own rather than WHAT I CONSIDER PERSONALLY TO MYSELF as cheating.

This game hardly has any penalty to deaths, other than mending your gear. So just because you die or wipe isn't the end of the world. It's a learning experience that they got to enjoy. So I want to enjoy too.

When I get mad enough to throw the controller, then maybe I'll look up a guide if I don't calm down first. But that hasn't happened yet. Joking.

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So, get ready to be kicked from party later. People not going tolerate (and its right choice) 80 lvl problematic player, who just "muh, i wanna explore myself". Because player don't wanna carry one dead weight party member.

If people don't want to use a guide, that's fine. Just make a PF stating "doing this blind. Can join if you know what to do, but please let others learn by experience" or something along those lines.

Do not join farm parties or learning/progression parties asking for people to have at least watched/read a guide if you want to do the fights blind. That's being rude.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

If people don't want to use a guide, that's fine. Just make a PF stating "doing this blind. Can join if you know what to do, but please let others learn by experience" or something along those lines.

Do not join farm parties or learning/progression parties asking for people to have at least watched/read a guide if you want to do the fights blind. That's being rude.

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I second this.

While I completely agree that you have the right to want to explore duties, dungeons and trials blind, I think you should inform anyone involved of such. You can create a party asking for a blind run. That's fair and I see many people doing it. But you can't expect everyone to play this way. If someone creates a group demanding that a guide has been watched or something, you should respect that, as much as someone should respect your choice of doing it blind.

It goes both ways really.

Everything just comes down to communication, communication, communication. Conflicts are arising because people just don’t talk and assume.

For examples:
1. You want to do dungeons blind. Fine. Just say “First time here, haven’t done it before”. Everyone will probably be fine.

2. You think tank is pulling too slow. Fine. Just say “you can pull more, we can handle it”. Everyone will probably be fine.

3. Tank is pulling too fast for your gear/ experience. Fine. Just say “im a bit new to healing, can we slow down the pull just a smidge”. Everyone will probably be fine.

4. You are dps/healer and want to pull more? Just say “i’ll grab a few more , i think we can handle it, i’ll bring em back here”. Tank will get the message and will probably be pulling more afterwards, and this will most likely turn out better than just running off ahead and pulling without saying anything.

5. You think someone not doing well in their job. Fine. Just say “you should be using/wearing/casting”. If it doesnt work, just say “seems the party cannot handle it with this setup at the moment”. Everyone will probably be fine. No bitter taste afterwards and separate peacefully and no one will be complaining to forums afterwards or report you for bad behavior.

6. As a tank you want to pull wall to wall. Fine. Make sure you checked the HP or gears of the party members and if adequate, Just say “pulling wall to wall. Seems party can handle it”. Most likely everyone will be fine, even for those who are not, they’ll be forewarned and forearmed beforehands.

Every conflict becomes a conflict because misaligned expectations. How to align it? Just communicate, even briefly, should alleviate most of the toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Everything just comes down to communication, communication, communication.

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Agreed, although sometimes people don't respond even when you do say something.

There could be several reasons why, but just in case they don't pay attention to chat, I sometimes wish there is an equivalent to raid warning in WoW to announce something in duty. (Although I guess it could be misused and probably overkill for a dungeon.)

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Originally Posted by linayar

Agreed, although sometimes people don't respond even when you do say something.

There could be several reasons why, but just in case they don't pay attention to chat, I sometimes wish there is an equivalent to raid warning in WoW to announce something in duty. (Although I guess it could be misused and probably overkill for a dungeon.)

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Even if they don’t respond, most likely they’ve read and they would be less likely to react to your actions in a toxic manner. In this way, everyone is helping each other to reduce toxicity borne out of misalignment of expectations. After all, the entire premise of this discussion is “you’re playing with others. Dont just play the way you want”. But how to do that properly if you guys dont communicate.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

So just because someone did it, discovered it and coined it. Now they're the only one to ever get that opportunity or to do it that way? FUCK THAT.

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I mean, if you wanna make your own guides then by all means, but here's the thing: Your guide is probably gonna be bad unless it's exactly like the other guy's guide. Why do I say that? Because, until you can demonstrate higher ability on the job compared to the other guy, then there's zero reason to think your knowledge of the class surpasses theirs.

Hey, who knows? Maybe you're a gold-parsing god in training, maybe you'll discover all the secrets to playing your favorite class that nobody ever knew about. But you have to GET there first before anyone will take you seriously. And, honestly, every second it takes you to get there is another second where the people who are already masters of the job have a head start on you. And there's honestly no reason to even think there's anything for you to teach the world that it doesn't already know until the day it happens, sooo.. good luck, I guess?

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Ohh I don't know...let's see....

-new to dungeon
-new to role
-new to the game as a whole
-tanxiety
-undergeared
-getting used to new skills/rotation/keybinds
-'thin skin' aka, praying the other party members aren't jerks
-testing how the other party members perform

heck, even all of the above at once is an option. Tanking in itself may be mechanically easy, but clearly the great majority of players aren't willing to do it, more often than not, out of fear of the other players, not the content itself.



Point proven. This is exactly why tanking will always be, in every game ever, the least played role. Nothing encourages people more to try a role than being belittled and judged right from the get go.

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While i cant say i disagree, being new to any given dungeon means diddly squat past level 50 - Dungeons are basically copy pastes of eachother and mob packs almost always do the same damage, there isnt patrols that can be avoided like in ARR dungeons, patrols that can also agro in to a current ongoing fight and screw you over and all manner of things. Every dungeon past level 50 is basically identical mechanically outside of bosses so going in to amaurot and saying "im new so i pull small" is a bit counterintuitive as you should know by then at every dungeon is the same damn thing.
Being new to the game or your role is also something that any given player shouldnt be past a certain point, if they still have no idea how to tank at lvl 80 because they used a jump potion, that's their problem and not their parties problem.

Being undergeared is generally not a big problem these days due to leveling dungeons having ilvl requirements and the fact that you can megapull with even the minimum ilvl gear for any given dungeon, provided the tank and healer know how to play their jobs decently.

Honestly i think it comes down to just...people need to learn to read their tooltips and be open to advice, but past level 50 they shouldnt expect to be coddled to or played around.

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

(Also, in terms of job performance, "your own play-style" just doesn't exist. There's a right way to play a class and then various degrees of "less right", a lot of which are perfectly viable if they're in the right ballpark. It's not particularly fun to hear, but it is also just a fact of the game's combat.)

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There's an Optimized way to play and then there's everything else. I maintain that in standard content, the game is designed so that if you are the item level specified, and you do button-mash damage, you will likely clear in the allotted time, assuming you don't die to avoidable mechanics.

I also maintain that there's no 'official' way to play any job or class. Sure jobs are designed to work a certain way mechanics wise, but any 'rotations' are up to the player and indeed any rotations you learn are generally gotten from players who have done the math and thankfully shared the fruits of their labors. The game offers nothing save for mostly vague descriptions of what your skills do and nothing in the way of weaving those skills together.

This is a good description though, as I myself don't run fully optimized most of the time and willfully so. I feel there's a generally accepted way to play, which is a way that keeps your fellow players in mind, and a widely endured selfish way that is geared only to your own experience. I've seen this across the board from people using dungeons for a purely role-play experience to people who care only for their numbers and refuse to participate beyond that--even at the cost of the group or duty.

I think a lot of toxicity isn't over actual gameplay but rather expected gameplay. And some is just baffling (why be mean to lalafels? Honestly). I think the confusion is over finding the baseline between SJW defense and just blatant ridiculousness. XD

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

(why be mean to lalafels? Honestly)

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Never really understood this either. I think some people just do it to be cool, it's the "hip" thing right now.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

FF 14 is like a group of friends playing DND in their moms basement. We all get along, for the most part, we all help each other out. Some of us get married in that basement to pixels, and some take that straight to the real altar.

But recently I have been seeing a lot of new players, I like new players. Shiny little creatures with that little tiny seedling. They come and announce "I am a new tank here" and that's amazing. I want to help you any way I can.

Then the healer states "Pull large, I got this." The tank continues to state they are uneasy pulling large amounts, they try, we wipe, I say slow down, take your time. The healer gets pissy, threatens to leave, I initiate the kick vote, it fails, he leaves.

Summary: Whats with the drama?

I come from ARR, when HW was new and shiny. I had my fair share of idiots, we all have. But when there's new people we should banding together to help them, not rush through because we can.

The other side of that coin is new players coming from other games "well this isn't so and so, so it sucks" Or you give them advice, I have little tanking experience, but one time the tank could not keep argo, I told him the particular skill to use (the one where spikes come up through the ground, spacing on the name) and he gets all snippy. "In wow this is how I played, it works more or less the same here, you just suck"

I'm sorry you entitled, spoiled little brat - but I am trying to help you be a better player.

Christ. What is happening? From the mass zerg (GW2 term) farms for hunts to the rampant attack against and from new players. Every day is a fight through either super silent dungeons aside from the intial: "o/" to the constant use of (in some cases) the N word or other racial slurs.

I get it, shadowbringers was awesome, we bout to get some good eggs, some bad eggs and some rotten eggs. But recently it seems the old guard attacking the newer generation and the newer generation assuming "this is like "x" game, shut up".

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the problem here is that ppl is used to the game style of everyone everyone plays how their riends play , they follow the same trends and a healer expects any new tank to big pull and do whatever their friends do bc they think is a normal thing to do, sadly the problem with that is as mentioned before ppl is so used to the same trends as everyone else

i got kicked many times in dungeons because i dont follow the trends they expect me to follow.

i can big pull as much as they love to if they ask but if they dont say anything then sorry i will do what i know.


the issue here is that ppl is getting toxic because they have a playstyle set in stone and if ppl dont follow their demands they get angry because they think everyone is made the same

Again, you just got unlucky. Not everyone is like that in game.