Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

at this point one day iam not suprised yoshi going to delete the rescue skill lol

and probably that sleep skill too

I consider myself a decent tank, I ask healers at the start of content if they want small or large pulls and use all my CDs.

Sometimes in boss battles, I know the hit thats coming up and know how long I can stay on the boss before the aoe hits me.

It's F-ing casual content. Don't use rescue on me. I completely agree with the people pissed off about it here.

Healers won't f-ing dps in the game, waste my time by not using their dots and aoe, or keep me at 80+ percent the whole dungeon but you want to yank me across the field?

I'm a tank! My health doesn't need to always be that high, I'm ok with getting down to 10k health if it means you're DPSing! Overhealing is not necessary. They give you DPS skills for a reason! USE THEM

Boss positioning is MY job, I'm going to be where I want to be. Do your job and keep us from hitting zero HP and DPS the damn mobs.

I can see rescue if you're running content with friends or during raid, but in public content with strangers. Nah F You.

I'm not sorry.

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Had to edit because I reread it and saw I was ranting. Sorry for the rant. But I hate rescue and I hate healers that don't dps. It makes casual content such a drag when I'm legit using everything in my arsenal to support them as a tank.

But you do realise that healers who don't dps and healers who want bigger pulls are completely different people, right?
This looks suspiciously like you just wanted to rant about the nasty 0 dps healers you encountered and healers using rescue was a good excuse to start a rant about you getting healed too much for your liking. There is a "Tales from the Duty Finder" thread that's better suited for such rants.

I've probably seen rescue used badly more than well, but I still wouldn't want it removed.
For example, the most recent time I've had it used on me in a PUG setting, was in Grand Cosmos. I pulled the first pull after the first boss, the one with two bombs.
I hit my invuln to soak the two self destructs, and got rescued out of the AoE anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

But you do realise that healers who don't dps and healers who want bigger pulls are completely different people, right?
This looks suspiciously like you just wanted to rant about the nasty 0 dps healers you encountered and healers using rescue was a good excuse to start a rant about you getting healed too much for your liking. There is a "Tales from the Duty Finder" thread that's better suited for such rants.

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Dude this is the internet, don't attribute shit just to complain about a rant. I ranted and acknowledged it in an edit for knowing I went off topic.

Also your assumption that healers that don't dps, don't have it in their minds that double pulling makes the dungeon go faster and thus, thinks what a tank should do is inaccurate.

I'm on Aether, we get healers all the time that when I ask "small pulls or large" prefer large because they are healbots. In their minds they are like "well the tank won't die since all I'll do is heal" and it makes the dungeon take forever.

It's ok to be like "hey you're ranting" but get off your high horse, you're not a forum mod. Respond to my topic and address the points I'm making or don't respond at all.

For the decent enough tanks out there, rescuing is trash AND healers that don't dps are also annoying.

I think that's a necessary post(HadesNight) to have in this thread none the less. 0 DPS healers are just as bad as the back seat driver healers that use rescue.

I gotta say though you sound very angry and bitter, clearly you're tired of the crap that goes on there. I hope you have better days playing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I've probably seen rescue used badly more than well, but I still wouldn't want it removed.
For example, the most recent time I've had it used on me in a PUG setting, was in Grand Cosmos. I pulled the first pull after the first boss, the one with two bombs.
I hit my invuln to soak the two self destructs, and got rescued out of the AoE anyway.

---

While it's unfortunate your invulnerability was wasted, I believe that was done with good intentions - they didn't know you were gonna do that, or wasn't paying attention.

Rescuing a tank to force their character forward is very passive aggressive. Use your words.

On the other hand, tanks who get outrun by their healers need to reflect on why that happens. You both have the same movement speed and Sprint.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

I think that's a necessary post(HadesNight) to have in this thread none the less. 0 DPS healers are just as bad as the back seat driver healers that use rescue.



While it's unfortunate your invulnerability was wasted, I believe that was done with good intentions - they didn't know you were gonna do that, or wasn't paying attention.

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Of course, but it's literally the only time anyone's rescued me out of an AoE like that in a big pull, and one of the few times I invulned it XD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Rescuing a tank to force their character forward is very passive aggressive. Use your words.

On the other hand, tanks who get outrun by their healers need to reflect on why that happens. You both have the same movement speed and Sprint.

---

I often stop to get two AoE attacks out before carrying on to the next group. Otherwise there's a risk of the DPS ripping aggro back off me in transit.
That 1 GCD stop is enough to let the healer gain a lot of ground.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Rescuing a tank to force their character forward is very passive aggressive. Use your words.

On the other hand, tanks who get outrun by their healers need to reflect on why that happens. You both have the same movement speed and Sprint.

---

I do think it's a partnership. Like as a tank main, I rely heavily on healers and respect that they have to keep us all alive. So at the start of every public run (not with friends or FC mates) I ask for their pull preferences and just go for it. Even if we die, it doesn't matter because I'm happy to scale back.

Rescuing to pull more, or position me during a boss fight feels exactly like that "passive aggression". It's really frustrating. I could see if I got hit with mechanics once and the healer had to heal quickly to keep me alive, but in expert, leveling or daily roulettes? That content is almost braindead, after your first few times, dying isn't really a thing if you're like just bare minimum decent.

I don't see the place rescue has in casual content. I can see it for savage or ultimate raid strategy if needed, or a clutch moment against week one new content and the healer just saved a run with it. But it's mostly being used to troll people or control their style of gameplay and that's been my experience on Aether for when it's happened.

I have immediately said "don't use rescue" and moved on with the runs with little to no opposition but I just don't understand why someone would get it in their mind that it's their place.

What if the tank is new? Tankxiety was real, allow people to go at their own pace, be considerate or speak up first. I consider it griefing in those cases. I wish they would get rid of it.

As for the OP, as mad as it would make me. Killing the healer wouldn't really do me much good lol. Better to ask them not to use it, and if they persist just leave the content and report them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Dude this is the internet, don't attribute shit just to complain about a rant. I ranted and acknowledged it in an edit for knowing I went off topic.

Also your assumption that healers that don't dps, don't have it in their minds that double pulling makes the dungeon go faster and thus, thinks what a tank should do is inaccurate.

I'm on Aether, we get healers all the time that when I ask "small pulls or large" prefer large because they are healbots. In their minds they are like "well the tank won't die since all I'll do is heal" and it makes the dungeon take forever.

It's ok to be like "hey you're ranting" but get off your high horse, you're not a forum mod. Respond to my topic and address the points I'm making or don't respond at all.

For the decent enough tanks out there, rescuing is trash AND healers that don't dps are also annoying.

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I'm not on a high horse or modding anything, sorry if it came across like that. And if you're annoyed by healers not dpsing that's completely understandable. I always dislike that too and remind them to dps if there's nothing to heal.
This just came across like you just had another bad healer in a run and wanted to blow of some steam.

Rescue has uses in casual content. If you don't like the feeling of getting pulled somewhere, okay. But it's definitely not useless, not even in casual content.
Just because someone is the tank doesn't mean they shouldn't be corrected if they did something wroog like positioned themselves or the boss poorly or stood outside healer bubbles (just so you don't misinterpret: this is NOT directed at you specifically). Same goes for dps. Some are really good at jumping out of something last second but I've seen just as many people who are good at like people who apparently spaced out and didn't move an inch.
There's not always time to write an essay mid-fight about how someone should stand so rescue first, text later.

Besides I never condoned using rescue on tanks to pull them into more mobs and never will. This is just plain rude.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I'm not on a high horse or modding anything, sorry if it came across like that. And if you're annoyed by healers not dpsing that's completely understandable. I always dislike that too and remind them to dps if there's nothing to heal.
This just came across like you just had another bad healer in a run and wanted to blow of some steam.

Rescue has uses in casual content. If you don't like the feeling of getting pulled somewhere, okay. But it's definitely not useless, not even in casual content.
Just because someone is the tank doesn't mean they shouldn't be corrected if they did something wroog like positioned themselves or the boss poorly or stood outside healer bubbles (just so you don't misinterpret: this is NOT directed at you specifically). Same goes for dps. Some are really good at jumping out of something last second but I've seen just as many people who are good at like people who apparently spaced out and didn't move an inch.
There's not always time to write an essay mid-fight about how someone should stand so rescue first, text later.

Besides I never condoned using rescue on tanks to pull them into more mobs and never will. This is just plain rude.

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No problem about the stuff before.

I do take umbridge with the part about being corrected. It's not your job to correct another players mistakes. It's not your job to do anything about other players, they recently made the TOS way more strict in regards to griefing and harassment because of this, and traditionally it's why SE doesn't implement anything in game that gives indication of HOW jobs should be played. Our game is a casual free for all.

As a tank, healer bubbles are not my problem. A healer should wait until the pack is positioned and THEN throw it up. That isn't to say, if it's reasonable I don't always move into it. If I see I'm a bit off of a bubble, I'll get into it. But it's not a healers right to rescue a tank into a bubble they poorly placed. The bubbles are a tool in the healers inventory, they need to correct their own technique, or after the first bubble snafu, communicate and say "hey I'll place my bubble before the pull, can you run into it?". DPS often place their aoes after the pack has been established in a spot.

If a tank runs or moves after that, then yeah that's frustrating. But healers don't have a right to rescue because their play levels are subpar and if you don't have time to text, then don't use it at all.

The consequences of getting hit in casual content are minimal. I'm interested in the rest of these "uses" it has in casual content. I'm willing to learn here if people have legitimate reasons for this in an expert, leveling or other casual brain dead content.
---
editing to add a second thought, "write an essay" is hyperbolic. Communication is key for any bit of teamwork and that's what it is in the game. People should be considerate. You don't get to force your playstyle on others without their consent, so communicate it first or don't do it at all. People are equals in public content, for better or worse.

Oh also edit, I don't mean you as in you, just people with this mindset. We unfortunately don't control anything other players do. Thats what causes our pain in the first place lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MichiPichi

Using rescue to get the tank to pull more seems to be an issue mainly on Crystal.

I decided to level an alt on Crystal to see if the memes/rumors were true about how bad people are there and yeah it's true. I've played on Primal, Light and Aether and Crystal is the only datacenter where 90% of the tanks single pull, even if the rest of the party wants to go faster(and yes even at end game). It's awful and makes these awfully boring dungeons take even longer and is where I first thought to use rescue to drag the tank into mobs.

I don't think rescue needs to be changed based off the datacenter with the "unofficial" lowest skill playerbase.

On the other hand though, I've tanked there and have watched as the healer does nothing and then I die to one pack of mobs, so I can understand a tank single pulling..... that RP data center is just....something else.

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This is an interesting point, if it's true and not a gross exaggeration.

I've had a similar experience on Crystal, where most people don't wall to wall through most content. I also can verify tanking on Crystal that Wall to Walling is often a scary prospect, because a lot of times even on small pulls the heals take forever to start up, and when they finally do it's often just the healer panic spamming their weakest/fastest heal to not very good results.

I guess this could explain a lot of the extreme differences in opinion we see here.

It's kind of beside the point, though. Rescue pulling because you can't show the common decency to simply ask for something is ridiculous.

No fun allowed, at this point just replace every human being in duty with a bot.
Imagine being offended by someone pulling your ass to bigger pack of mobs, this snowflake community get worse everyday.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is an interesting point, if it's true and not a gross exaggeration.

I've had a similar experience on Crystal, where most people don't wall to wall through most content. I also can verify tanking on Crystal that Wall to Walling is often a scary prospect, because a lot of times even on small pulls the heals take forever to start up, and when they finally do it's often just the healer panic spamming their weakest/fastest heal to not very good results.

I guess this could explain a lot of the extreme differences in opinion we see here.

It's kind of beside the point, though. Rescue pulling because you can't show the common decency to simply ask for something is ridiculous.

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Remember when the worlds split apart and everyone was saying Crystal wouldnt be good for raiding. I think if it's a DC that is maybe focused on the more non battle parts of the game, it kinda makes sense in my head to see this happen. It's interesting because if single pulling is the norm there, wouldn't it just be expected at that point? But agreed with the last point there. It's just about common decency and most players don't get that this game isn't WoW. It's designed to cater to the casual user experience.

This is a summer classic. Healers and Tanks, battling it all out. I have truly lived to have witnessed such a specticle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

This is a summer classic. Healers and Tanks, battling it all out. I have truly lived to have witnessed such a specticle.

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Lol, it would only be a battle if it was like proper argumentation and discourse.

This is like internet keyboard warriors hopping out because their are no consequences and we still haven't gotten anywhere productive.

My only solace at this point is the fact that the worlds are separated by DC and I don't have to play with such terrible human beings.

2020 highlights!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

This is a summer classic. Healers and Tanks, battling it all out. I have truly lived to have witnessed such a specticle.

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Eh, 6/10 thread. Needs more aquatic mammals of choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Remember when the worlds split apart and everyone was saying Crystal wouldnt be good for raiding. I think if it's a DC that is maybe focused on the more non battle parts of the game, it kinda makes sense in my head to see this happen. It's interesting because if single pulling is the norm there, wouldn't it just be expected at that point? But agreed with the last point there. It's just about common decency and most players don't get that this game isn't WoW. It's designed to cater to the casual user experience.

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There's a point around endgame where you start to see Wall to Wall pulls more frequently, but it's hardly some community rule or standard that everyone understands and follows. If healers ask for big pulls it's safe to assume they can handle it, but just defaulting to wall to wall pulls every time is often going to be suicide. It's a dumb expectation.

I've played WoW and even that community doesn't seem quite as anti-social as this one. Players there can actually be convinced to talk to each other if they'd prefer things done a specific way.

I'm down for otters. I saw another thread devolve and get hijacked into otter mania. 10/10 worth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

There's a point around endgame where you start to see Wall to Wall pulls more frequently, but it's hardly some community rule or standard that everyone understands and follows. If healers ask for big pulls it's safe to assume they can handle it, but just defaulting to wall to wall pulls every time is often going to be suicide. It's a dumb expectation.

I've played WoW and even that community doesn't seem quite as anti-social as this one. Players there can actually be convinced to talk to each other if they'd prefer things done a specific way.

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Interestingly enough, on Aether it FEELs like wall to wall is the norm. I mean, it's my absolute go to. Pop sprint right before a mob, a CD of choice, pick up the packs you can, position them and aoe them down. It seems really efficient but it only really happens like after that initial patch release. When everyone is geared. The first couple weeks are rough in new content (but also kinda exhilarating) when you wall to wall and don't know if you'll survive. After people are geared, you kinda just always survive anyway lol.

That's interesting about WoW, I've only played FFXIV but I've heard nothing but bad things about the toxic nature of the community. Our game kinda protects people in their right to be inconsiderate, so I almost wish for a bit of that transparency that other games have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yukiiyuki

No fun allowed, at this point just replace every human being in duty with a bot.

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well... there's trust system, that's a start. let just see how yoshi improve it in the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Interestingly enough, on Aether it FEELs like wall to wall is the norm. I mean, it's my absolute go to. Pop sprint right before a mob, a CD of choice, pick up the packs you can, position them and aoe them down. It seems really efficient but it only really happens like after that initial patch release. When everyone is geared. The first couple weeks are rough in new content (but also kinda exhilarating) when you wall to wall and don't know if you'll survive. After people are geared, you kinda just always survive anyway lol.

That's interesting about WoW, I've only played FFXIV but I've heard nothing but bad things about the toxic nature of the community. Our game kinda protects people in their right to be inconsiderate, so I almost wish for a bit of that transparency that other games have.

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I mostly Wall to Wall myself, but it's mainly because I was a Paladin for most of my time tanking. Clemency is an amazing safety net for those times where you've pulled the entire area just to realize the healer and DPS aren't going to be much help. Switching to Dark Knight, however, has me more apprehensive, so I test pull the first couple groups. If everyone seems solid I'll pick up the pace, but I'm not going to just run ahead of everyone and die as the opening to most of my roulettes.

And yea, WoW's endgame at least can be pretty toxic, and I haven't really done Savages in this game, so maybe in that regard this community is better. As far as attitudes in general/casual content go, however, this is one of the worst games I've played. You'd think the world was ending if a roulette takes an extra 5 minutes, and the refusal to communicate is astounding to me. I've never had this specific conversation in any other game; where I had to fight the community over the prospect of asking for something at the beginning of a run.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I mostly Wall to Wall myself, but it's mainly because I was a Paladin for most of my time tanking. Clemency is an amazing safety net for those times where you've pulled the entire area just to realize the healer and DPS aren't going to be much help. Switching to Dark Knight, however, has me more apprehensive, so I test pull the first couple groups. If everyone seems solid I'll pick up the pace, but I'm not going to just run ahead of everyone and die as the opening to most of my roulettes.
.

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Ah I main DRK, I have since 3.x series! Just go for it! The blackest night is lovely and I find I have no trouble at all keeping myself alive when cycling through my CDs. I find that in our regular dungeons, even if I get down to 10k on a pull as long as I don't die, it completely works. I've had some excellent healers that ignore me until the last minute lol, and it's because they are burning down the packs. TBN is excellent for stalling some of the damage. Arms Length is also amazing now because it casts a slow when you get hit, stalling some of the damage in clutch moments until your TBN is back and the healer can get to you!

Clemency was completely nice but I feel like all the tanks are really well balanced now for solo survivablility. DRK traditionally was the "greedy" tank, that didn't have much in it's kit for the party but was great for keeping itself up, so abuse it lol. Clearly, I'm passionate about DRK xD

Your method of testing the first few groups works too! I made a macro I run that just asks a healers preference at the start and it says something like "thank you! Let's aoe them to the ground!" just to try and remind them to DPS as a far shot. Most of the time they don't but at least I tried in a kind way. It saves you time if you ask in the beginning what the healers preference is in regards to small or big pulls.

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences! Honestly, this game is fantastic. I adore it and it's like, yeah some people are toxic assholes, they get off on it because this is the only place they can assert any form of control but they don't matter. I think if you're finding people are impatient, take it upon yourself to communicate your needs at the outset. It's totally ok to say "hey I'd like to single pull, I'm feeling out DRK". The people that want to leave will leave, and thats it. I think the answer is, if you find that a bad experience happens, you can't control other players no matter how frustrating it is, so do more on your end to try and over communicate. From a fellow tank main, I really feel like I've had good success on Aether by asking healers what pull sizes they want and thanking them for letting me know and keeping my CDs on cooldown. Hopefully your DC isn't full of inconsiderate people!

If tankxiety isn't a thing, what do you call the feeling you get when you're new to tanking, or are unsure of your skills?

::Thonk::

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

If tankxiety isn't a thing, what do you call the feeling you get when you're new to tanking, or are unsure of your skills?

::Thonk::

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Being nervous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

Being nervous.

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anx·i·e·ty
/aNGˈzīədē/
noun
a feeling of worry, nervousness, or unease, typically about an imminent event or something with an uncertain outcome.

Tank anxiety, tankxiety. It's a portmanteau.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

Being nervous.

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Yes, it's a silly word, but it's descriptive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

anx·i·e·ty
/aNGˈzīədē/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a feeling of worry, nervousness, or unease, typically about an imminent event or something with an uncertain outcome.

Tank anxiety, tankxiety. It's a portmanteau.

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Ah, yes. The grammar posters. I guess this is the part where you feel clever?

You obviously love being antagonistic, so I'll state that no; tank anxiety is no more real than healer anxiety or dps anxiety.

But you continue feeling special.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Ah I main DRK, I have since 3.x series! Just go for it! The blackest night is lovely and I find I have no trouble at all keeping myself alive when cycling through my CDs. I find that in our regular dungeons, even if I get down to 10k on a pull as long as I don't die, it completely works. I've had some excellent healers that ignore me until the last minute lol, and it's because they are burning down the packs. TBN is excellent for stalling some of the damage. Arms Length is also amazing now because it casts a slow when you get hit, stalling some of the damage in clutch moments until your TBN is back and the healer can get to you!

Clemency was completely nice but I feel like all the tanks are really well balanced now for solo survivablility. DRK traditionally was the "greedy" tank, that didn't have much in it's kit for the party but was great for keeping itself up, so abuse it lol. Clearly, I'm passionate about DRK xD

Your method of testing the first few groups works too! I made a macro I run that just asks a healers preference at the start and it says something like "thank you! Let's aoe them to the ground!" just to try and remind them to DPS as a far shot. Most of the time they don't but at least I tried in a kind way. It saves you time if you ask in the beginning what the healers preference is in regards to small or big pulls.

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences! Honestly, this game is fantastic. I adore it and it's like, yeah some people are toxic assholes, they get off on it because this is the only place they can assert any form of control but they don't matter. I think if you're finding people are impatient, take it upon yourself to communicate your needs at the outset. It's totally ok to say "hey I'd like to single pull, I'm feeling out DRK". The people that want to leave will leave, and thats it. I think the answer is, if you find that a bad experience happens, you can't control other players no matter how frustrating it is, so do more on your end to try and over communicate. From a fellow tank main, I really feel like I've had good success on Aether by asking healers what pull sizes they want and thanking them for letting me know and keeping my CDs on cooldown. Hopefully your DC isn't full of inconsiderate people!

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I was lucky when I first learned tanking I think, only a handful of instances of people being genuinely inconsiderate. Most of my impressions nowadays are from leveling alts, and witnessing how people behave with new tanks. Rescue pulling specifically is something I've seen frequently lately as an inconsiderate way to "deal" with new tanks; hence the thread.

And, let's just say the way this thread played out has kind of illustrated that being inconsiderate is a popular mindset in this community. I do think this is a great game, but for the most part I think it's a great game despite the community, not because of it.

Regardless, I do think I'll switch DCs if I start seriously getting into the endgame.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

Ah, yes. The grammar posters. I guess this is the part where you feel clever?

You obviously love being antagonistic, so I'll state that no; tank anxiety is no more real than healer anxiety or dps anxiety.

But you continue feeling special.

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You literally used a synonym of the word to try and discredit the use of anxiety lmaoo. It's not a matter of feeling special but incredulous that you thought that was valid.

Not a single person in the last few pages of this thread are saying healers and dps don't feel anxiety by the way. Tankxiety is just a phrase used in MMOs to discuss that specific brand of it.

If responding in a way that doesn't agree with you is antagonistic, I have news for you man. The world will be rough. Don't be scarcastic and be like "being nervous" when it's a synonym of the word. Be more clever lol and people won't call you on your bs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

You literally used a synonym of the word to try and discredit the use of anxiety lmaoo. It's not a matter of feeling special but incredulous that you thought that was valid.

Not a single person in the last few pages of this thread are saying healers and dps don't feel anxiety by the way. Tankxiety is just a phrase used in MMOs to discuss that specific brand of it.

If responding in a way that doesn't agree with you is antagonistic, I have news for you man. The world will be rough. Don't be scarcastic and be like "being nervous" when it's a synonym of the word. Be more clever lol and people won't call you on your bs.

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Lol. Okay. You obviously took my post far too seriously. I recommended taking a break. You seem to need it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I was lucky when I first learned tanking I think, only a handful of instances of people being genuinely inconsiderate. Most of my impressions nowadays are from leveling alts, and witnessing how people behave with new tanks. Rescue pulling specifically is something I've seen frequently lately as an inconsiderate way to "deal" with new tanks; hence the thread.

And, let's just say the way this thread played out has kind of illustrated that being inconsiderate is a popular mindset in this community. I do think this is a great game, but for the most part I think it's a great game despite the community, not because of it.

Regardless, I do think I'll switch DCs if I start seriously getting into the endgame.

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Well I think each DC has it's pros and cons. Being a new tank isn't a crime, so definitely try letting people know that you're going to be going at your own pace and if it persists, Aether isn't perfect but it's home! People try a bit on our servers and while our experiences are annoying too, I haven't met people that are unkind to newbies as a practice when they are noting it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

Lol. Okay. You obviously took my post far too seriously. I recommended taking a break. You seem to need it.

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Lol, thanks for the concern!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Well I think each DC has it's pros and cons. Being a new tank isn't a crime, so definitely try letting people know that you're going to be going at your own pace and if it persists, Aether isn't perfect but it's home! People try a bit on our servers and while our experiences are annoying too, I haven't met people that are unkind to newbies as a practice when they are noting it.

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Also from Aether here, and people are big on communication. I've found that most of the grief is when people don't talk to each other. In general, we're receptive to being asked to slow down, speed up, etc and will welcome more folks who like communicating in a multiplayer game =D

Been following this thread a bit and it kinda baffles me why this is such an issue. While some of the people here made some really good points. I'll do my best to take my spin on the issue.

Let's set one thing straight. Besides the obvious troll feature of pulling people to death such as in e3, or pulling people through the bacon strip in e6, and i guess now pulling tanks into mobs, I also think Rescue has many benefits to it.

Let me paint some real in-game scenarios to paint a clearer picture.
For example, in e4s when the 2 evil earths spawn in the center. Most people don't even use sprint in combat, thus can barely make it to the safe spots. Having the healers rescue the person assigned to squares 1 or 4, etc. can literally be life or death sometimes.

Or Shinryu's/Leviathan's/Sophia's/etc. where having to position correctly can mean life or death. Maybe the DPS greeded, maybe it's their first time and they just don't know the mechanics. There are countless mechanics that are unforgiving and having a floor tank isn't helping anyone.
Or how about the countless times i've seen first time encounters in Nidhogg where the marked player for stack just runs around like a headless chicken. (ofc, they still inevitable run out after the initial hit, killing themselves) Rescue can come in clutch sometimes.
Side Note: There was just a recent post about boss mechanics being unclear and that being a floor tank doesn't feel good or help them understand boss mechanics. Rescue can potentially help with that.

Now you might've noticed, most of these scenarios are raid/trial/boss fight mechanics and unfortunately, some spells are just situataional as such. So, I don't see a forseeable future where Rescue will be removed.

Now let's break some of your talking points down.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Just turn it into a long CD single target barrier healers can cast on the party. That maintains the general intention while removing the terribly thought out, OBVIOUSLY exploitable mechanic.

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First off, let's acknowledge just how problematic this is. Tanks are already abusing invulnerabilities to avoid tank swaps, let's go ahead and give them another one.

But let's talk dungeon runs. In a typical dungeon run, tanks SHOULD be using their invulnerability cooldown as part of their cooldown rotation. I get that most new players treat it as a "Oh shit!" button, but its a cooldown nonetheless; USE IT. Ofc, DK would be the only exception unless they're paired with a WHM. Now just imagine how much more braindead these pulls will be once tanks get TWO invulnerabilities during pulls.

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Not to mention, dungeons typically follow a 2 wtw trash pull into boss; repeat 3 times structure, and tanks can typically pull off 2 invulnerability pulls per dungeon. Once at the start, and again after the 2nd boss. Now just imagine how pulls will be and how rescue will be used if it was changed to an invincible barrier.

And no, a weak barrier will not work either. As mentioned before, most mechanics are unforgiving and in situations where Rescue would've kept them alive, a weak barrier will not bridge that difference. Hence, an invulnerable barrier is the only probable comparison. Because the invulnerable barrier is inherently bad for gameplay, arguably worse than troll pulls, Rescue's functionality will stay as is.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Everyone's perspective is different. If you're a healer who uses the ability competently with good intentions then that's your purview; you only see what you do and not how Rescue is generally used by other healers.

I group with a variety of healers and from my perspective the bad FAR outweighs any perceived good. The ability is predominately either a tool for trolls, or used in ways that hurt more than help.

If you all don't want to change the ability mechanically then we should let people opt out of having it used on them. Add a toggle and leave it on by default, so people who don't want to be Rescued have to actively disable it.

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This is a clear case of the surviror bias fallacy. If healers had no need for rescuing you, then that means you're doing what is expected of you and or dodging mechanics correctly, hence why you don't see "good" rescues. If a healer is ever intentionally Rescuing you, maybe your first reaction should be "what did i do wrong?" instead of "what a f-ing troll." Besides, there are not that many things that can one shot you in dungeons, so there's hardly any particular "expoitable mechanic" that a healer can abuse to grief people unless they are purposely throwing themselves off the arena as well (Demon Wall in Ampador Keep) and at that point, you guys can all collectively vote to kick and report the healer.

In this case, you got pulled into more mobs because as most people can agree with, wtw is the norm or at least expected. Even at minimum ilvl, *most* dungeons can do wtw, with the exception of a few that while not impossible requires some skill and or game knowledge to understand limitations anyways. (Baelsar's Wall first pull, Bardam's Mettle first pulls with the red bears, Doma Castle with the Colossus-just to name a few)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

So, you say you're going to large pull, do it, then die to start off every run. Sounds like fun.

If I'm barely ilvl appropriate for the dungeon and not familiar with it I'm probably going to pull small. Tank sets the pace; that's just how it is. If the healer doesn't like the pace he can speak up, and if he asks for big pulls he'd better not suck.

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You seem pretty confident in your ability to tank. You've even said it yourself right? That you're capably of keeping yourself alive even if the healer dies. With that in mind, i see no reason why you shouldn't be doing wtw pulls by default regardless of healer skill level since this is the mindset you already have. Clearly, you can, so why aren't you?

You even said in a later post that you dictate the competence of your team through the first pull. What does going slow accomplish? Much like negotiation, you start high and make your way down. Failing will eventually happen and you work around it.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Assuming a healer can handle a wall to wall pull is a gambit. I've gone literally 15-20 seconds without receiving a single heal on a wall to wall; if I wasn't severely overgeared I'd be dead. Healer should state exactly what they can handle at the beginning of the run if they have specific expectations. Otherwise the tank sets the pace, period.

That's all beside the point, though. Rescue shouldn't exist as it does.

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I've always hated this argument. Tanks do not set the pace and the reason you guys don't understand is because you only see it from a slow tank's perspective. What about an elitist tank who expects competence from all players, even the new healer. He goes and pulls everything and inevitable die because the healer couldn't keep up. Or maybe the 2 DPS aren't doing their aoe rotations correctly and aren't killing the adds fast enough and burns out the healer MP. Tank has to slow down the run because of these players. Did the tank have full control the pace of the run? No, the team decides the pace of the run.

If you are deliberately slowing down the speed of the run you are arguably just as bad as those "forcing" you to pull more. But i digress.


Am I condoning the action of the healers pulling tanks into mobs? No. Do i think Rescue need to be removed for this sole reason? No. OP also pointed out that this happens a lot to newer tank and I ask, what did you do to help the situation? Did you tell the healer to stop? Or rather, did you try to help the tank understand his abilities/cooldown rotation to help him in later dungeons where wtw is expected? If you just left the dungeon without saying anything you're just as bad as the people you're complaining about.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

If you're referring to me and my OP, then you are definitely missing points from more posters than just one. I never even said that. What I said is that unless you play a healer, it is difficult to get the full perspective of how Rescue is and can be used. This can be said for any job though and the abilities they use, so there really is no disputing this.

In your case, considering that you have healer mains all over this thread stating how the ability has been useful to them, added to the fact that you've leveled all three healers to max and have found next to no use for the skill says more about you than the ability itself.

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I was not, I was referring to post #8.

I also never said Rescue has no use. I did say it is a bad ability. There's so much jankiness involved with its use that it ends up not being useful (or outright detrimental) in a lot of situations where it could otherwise have been useful, to the point where a lot of people just use it to troll. Case in point, this thread.

I also just don't agree with the idea of another player getting to dictate the movement/control of another player in general.

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First off, let's acknowledge just how problematic this is. Tanks are already abusing invulnerabilities to avoid tank swaps, let's go ahead and give them another one.

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I've adjusted my stance to simply wanting Rescue to be a toggle you can opt out of. This leaves the ability in tact for people who want it and takes it out of play for people who don't want to deal with it.

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You seem pretty confident in your ability to tank. You've even said it yourself right? That you're capably of keeping yourself alive even if the healer dies. With that in mind, i see no reason why you shouldn't be doing wtw pulls by default regardless of healer skill level since this is the mindset you already have. Clearly, you can, so why aren't you?

You even said in a later post that you dictate the competence of your team through the first pull. What does going slow accomplish? Much like negotiation, you start high and make your way down. Failing will eventually happen and you work around it.

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I'm confident in my ability to tank through nearly any situations with a Paladin, and that's mostly because of Clemency. No other tank has that kind of sustainability, so I operate more carefully with my DRK.

Also, this isn't a negotiation, it's a feeling out process. If you don't know what the group can handle you don't start out big, you start out with something manageable that will allow you to assess them.

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If you are deliberately slowing down the speed of the run you are arguably just as bad as those "forcing" you to pull more. But i digress.

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The tank sets the pace by default; meaning if no one says anything the tank is the one who's going to run ahead and pull based on whatever his personal mindset is. If the rest of the group wants input on what the tank decides to do they have to speak up.