Tactful ways to inform people that they're playing badly?

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

The funny thing about google is that sometimes, not all but sometimes you can get different results based on your info google has. I don't have hard core facts on it but there have been times me and someone else googled the same thing only to be met with different results. But I think that's based on ADs and what info google has tracked for you/of you. For guides on this game you do come up with alot of -old- advice, but the actual best way is to search on reddit and or various discords. Because yeah google isn't perfect and while you can get up to date info, there are times you get 4.0 guides for classes in 5.0. It happened to me on monk so I know you're not wrong.

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Are you saying that when you google "FF14 Bunny Girl", you're not all getting porn and playboy related results with nothing to do with FF14? :)

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Originally Posted by Valderen

Are you saying that when you google "FF14 Bunny Girl", you're not all getting porn and playboy related results with nothing to do with FF14? :)

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I'm going to google that and see what shows up on my phone... one second. - pulls out phone to google...- lol. Nope.. I just got alot of pictures of vieras ingame in their default gear. Wish I could screencap this but I'm on a PS4 so no go.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

If they're doing the basics right, I'm good.
For tanks that means keeping aggro and picking up stray mobs within a reasonable time, dodging aoes and using def cds. If the tank actives Rampart right before running into a group, it's not optimal but I won't nitpick.
For healers that means keeping the party alive as long as the incoming damage is reasonable, dispell as neccessary, dodge aoes. I don't expect them to heal other's stupidity. If they can, good, but in the end it's up to the party to avoid avoidable damage.
For dps that means using aoe at 3+ mobs and single target for everything below that, dodging aoes and using their own dps buffs, even if timed a bit poorly like Raging Strikes towards the end of a fight.

If someone gets something fundamentally wrong like a RDM constantly hardcasting Impact/ Veraero/ Verthunder, A BLM standing around after MP are drained to wait for Astral Fire to fall off, a DNC not choosing a dance partner at 60+, a SMN not calling his pet, a tank not turning on tank stance even after the first pack of mobs had a field day whacking everyone but the tank, a healer spamming expensive heals without needing to and being out of MP halfway into the fight or trying to single target heal with Medica, I will politely speak up with something like "hey [name], don't you want to dance with me? :( I won't step on your toes, I promise!".
Yes, I've seen all of those. Not regulary but it does happen.

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Some in this thread would call you toxic for expecting the bare minimum of classes that are learned at level 10.

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

I stand by the fact that "googling" for this game isn't as cut and dry as some are making it out to be. There's a reason why I leveled Maurader to 15 for no reason a few weeks ago thinking I needed it to unlock Dragoon. It wasn't for lack of effort.

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I'm trying to understand how you came to the conclusion that Maurader = Dragoon when the top google results for "FFXIV Maurader" are "Maurader becomes WAR at level 30", "Warrior Guide", and "Maurader leveling Guide"

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I'm trying to understand how you came to the conclusion that Maurader = Dragoon when the top google results for "FFXIV Maurader" are "Maurader becomes WAR at level 30", "Warrior Guide", and "Maurader leveling Guide"

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At one point you needed Lancer at 30 and Marauder at 15 to unlock Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

At one point you needed Lancer at 30 and Marauder at 15 to unlock Dragoon.

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Ok, I can see where this is coming from, but using a guide from like 2013 when a bunch of other guides from 2017-2019 really doesn't make sense, especially when you consider the fact that the official FFXIV job guide is the second result.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Ok, I can see where this is coming from, but using a guide from like 2013 when a bunch of other guides from 2017-2019 really doesn't make sense, especially when you consider the fact that the official FFXIV job guide is the second result.

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I jumped through a bunch of results and got both answers, including various forum posts from various sites in various years. So I leveled Marauder to 15 to be safe, and was still playing through early MSQ anyways (as reaching a certain point in that is also a requirement).

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

I jumped through a bunch of results and got both answers, including various forum posts from various sites in various years. So I leveled Marauder to 15 to be safe, and was still playing through early MSQ anyways (as reaching a certain point in that is also a requirement).

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One thing I can not recommend enough is The Balance if you are new. (https://thebalanceffxiv.com/ - has the discord, and a ton of resources)

They are constantly theory crafting stuff, and will help anyone new to the game all the way to BiS for raiding. The discord has a ton of guides on proper rotations, melds, brackets for stats, when to use moves effectively, etc. Even if they don't have what you are looking for, they have a questions section for each class where a good chunk of people are willing to help out.

Honestly, The Balance is probably the thing I see brought up the most when asking for help, and it's probably the best way to get an up-to-date answer for the game.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

One thing I can not recommend enough is The Balance if you are new. (https://thebalanceffxiv.com/ - has the discord, and a ton of resources)

They are constantly theory crafting stuff, and will help anyone new to the game all the way to BiS for raiding. The discord has a ton of guides on proper rotations, melds, brackets for stats, when to use moves effectively, etc. Even if they don't have what you are looking for, they have a questions section for each class where a good chunk of people are willing to help out.

Honestly, The Balance is probably the thing I see brought up the most when asking for help, and it's probably the best way to get an up-to-date answer for the game.

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I appreciate it, I'm sure it'll come in handy as I get further in the MSQ and unlock more higher end content.

But for the record, I'm actually doing a bit better now than I was two weeks in. ;) Just advocating a little for newer players since misinformation isn't always entirely their fault, and mistakes aren't always a lack of effort or interest in learning.

To answer the question posed directly: you don't.

To elaborate—

There are a couple of really important human being things that many MMOs players don't seem to understand. First, unsolicited advice — no matter how well intentioned or polite it appears — is considered rude behaviour in civil society. Almost every single person who has ever received unsolicited advice recoils at it, most often with a, 'Who does this guy / gal think he / she is telling me what to do!' There are varying levels of response, and some people may take it well, but no one should be surprised when unsolicited advice goes over poorly. Secondly, the only time people learn is when they have made the active decision to learn. These two points are linked together. So, even if your unsolicited advice goes over well (it usually does not), if the person does not have the desire to learn or improve, you're wasting your time. Which is why random groups in North American culture are such a mixed bag. Most people find unsolicited advice rude, and the very few who do not, need to have the desire to learn in order for that input to have any effect (and quite honestly, the lion's share of people who have the desire to learn will just Google how to play better).

So what do you do? As I said, you don't inform people they're playing badly, and you certainly don't offer unsolicited advice on how to improve because of the above. If their play is preventing you from completing your objective, you leave the group and find a new one. Fortunately in this game, most of the content can be done with nearly everyone playing poorly. But, honestly, trying to get people to improve whom you do not know (and so that unsolicited advice will always come across as rude) and likely don't even have a desire to play better, it's a losing battle. We really need to stop doing it. Dating back to the early MMOs, there is so much evidence of this not working. Just find new groups or play solely with people you know. It's the only way out of this rut.

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

I appreciate it, I'm sure it'll come in handy as I get further in the MSQ and unlock more higher end content.

But for the record, I'm actually doing a bit better now than I was two weeks in. ;) Just advocating a little for newer players since misinformation isn't always entirely their fault, and mistakes aren't always a lack of effort or interest in learning.

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The game itself does a poor job in teaching new players how things regarding classes/jobs work. That's why there a lot of information out there and sometimes it takes a bit to sift through.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

The game itself does a poor job in teaching new players how things regarding classes/jobs work. That's why there a lot of information out there and sometimes it takes a bit to sift through.

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I was actually impressed by the little training exercises that revolve around your class/role, it helped me a lot. But there's a big gap between those absolute basics, and expectations in real situations with real players. And that gap gets even bigger in later game content, I imagine.

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

I was actually impressed by the little training exercises that revolve around your class/role, it helped me a lot. But there's a big gap between those absolute basics, and expectations in real situations with real players. And that gap gets even bigger in later game content, I imagine.

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Yep, exactly. They only tell you things like "hit, tank or heal till you win" with a side of "dodge this" then send people on their merry way. The game needs a proper tutorial for each class/job, in my opinion. The main thing Halls of the Novice is good for is teaching people some basic party mechanics. Perhaps such tutorials could be added to that.

The real problem is people just don't talk in DF. They're too busy hurrying through the content which only leads to ruffled feathers when someone does say something because now the "bad" player has been singled out. So if you really want to offer advice, you need to talk from the start so when you make the suggestion/give advice it doesn't make the other person feel like you've stopped everything just to shame and humiliate them. If you try to set the mood of the run as fun and friendly from the very beginning, people will be a lot more receptive to any constructive criticism you have to give.

I know I'm not good at this game. I'm a lousy healer, I have terrible reaction times, and I don't understand the rotation I've seen because I can't ever make it work in an actual dungeon (tanks with no defensives on big pulls and my gear is at level so "eeek"). I'm still learning and I'm doing the best I can with what I've got to work with. I wouldn't mind a player giving me pointers or stopping to discuss what the problem is. As long as they're doing it in a friendly way. It's easier to take criticism from someone who seems like they're just trying to help than some anti-social mute who suddenly stops everything just to complain at me about my performance.

That's just my 2 cents on this.

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Originally Posted by CherryJubilee

The real problem is people just don't talk in DF. They're too busy hurrying through the content which only leads to ruffled feathers when someone does say something because now the "bad" player has been singled out. So if you really want to offer advice, you need to talk from the start so when you make the suggestion/give advice it doesn't make the other person feel like you've stopped everything just to shame and humiliate them. If you try to set the mood of the run as fun and friendly from the very beginning, people will be a lot more receptive to any constructive criticism you have to give.

I know I'm not good at this game. I'm a lousy healer, I have terrible reaction times, and I don't understand the rotation I've seen because I can't ever make it work in an actual dungeon (tanks with no defensives on big pulls and my gear is at level so "eeek"). I'm still learning and I'm doing the best I can with what I've got to work with. I wouldn't mind a player giving me pointers or stopping to discuss what the problem is. As long as they're doing it in a friendly way. It's easier to take criticism from someone who seems like they're just trying to help than some anti-social mute who suddenly stops everything just to complain at me about my performance.

That's just my 2 cents on this.

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Great point. I definitely agree with this. Had a random group maybe a week ago where they were stopping and chatting after every major pull, and as a newer tank it was a little confusing because I wasn't sure if I should keep going or let them finish. :D

But it was also really refreshing to see... it made an ordinary DF run kinda fun... and any commentary on how I was doing, or how the healer was doing (since we were obviously the "new players" of the group), was welcomed. Not that I was doing anything wrong for the record... just pointers here and there, commenting on my gear, etc. It helped they were also super friendly the whole way through. Even felt comfortable enough to ask if there were any mechanics/tricks to the boss before we did it since it was my first time doing that dungeon. Everything went real smooth.

I love the idea of people being a bit more sociable in the duty finder.

I love how people just assume, I'm a sprout and I'd still rather have constructive advices said nicely than being kicked for being new (yes I read the other comments). I almost got kicked out of one of ARR story quest for running away from a boss (I'm a healer). Someone told me to stop running and stand still and I did. Then proceeded to start a kick vote for harassement because I said: "Sorry I'm new, I see a big monster running after me I run lol". If thos is how people react this community suck and I'll stick to private party. It was just a story quest for me and I didn't know better, I've been playing for 2 weeks.

A simple "stop running" would've been enough. Stop assuming we're going to react badly, you get a bad experience, I get a bad experience everyone gets a bad experience because you didn't even try.

I think it depends, especially in duty finder.

As someone who's learning to tank, with Gunbreaker (so maybe a mistake picking up a tanking job that starts at 60) and 3 levels in has had someone just go after the final boss "Your positioning is bad, leaves dungeon" it's incredibly annoying.

If you can offer advice I personally appreciate hints and tips, had some great people in Duty Finder when I was leveling my WHM explaining things, other people probably wont.

Honestly I just move on in dungeons, they're what, 20 minutes? Not worth it. If you're going for bigger stuff, maybe point it out, and say why it's not a great way to play.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I think/hope you all know how to speak politely in general. Beyond that just try to offer specific advice on how they can improve. "You're not playing well; try to fix that" will always come off as insulting; while specific advice regarding gear or rotation will come off as you trying to be helpful.

Still, where you "polite" critics tend to fall apart is if someone isn't receptive of you. If someone doesn't want your advice that's not the green light to get aggressive and try to force it on them. Either let it go or, if the run is becoming untenable because of the player who can't/won't adjust, initiate a vote kick and see how the rest of the group feels.

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(Slight rant incoming, hahaha)
Yes yes yes yes! Perfectly put!
I was waiting to see a reply like this. I also want to expand specifically upon what you said about becoming rude after someone rejects your advice: this is very important to realize. If you claim that you're "kind", or "polite", or anything along those lines, then you need to stick to that, even if you see someone doing something you don't like. The moment you become hostile towards someone because they respectfully reject your advice, you are a FRAUD, a fake, and the opposite of what you pretended to be. I've seen this happen many times, and sometimes I even need to step in to shut down the harrassment. After playing for many years you notice a LOT of things, and one of the main things I've noticed is how these frauds claim to be so kind, so nice, so understanding, and how they're a part of the "fantastic" community of FFXIV, but in actuality, they're some of the nastiest individuals you'll ever meet. This game's community is NOT good! At first glance ot appears to be that way, but really spend some time here and just watch how people interact and you'll learn the truth quickly. It's sad because I don't remember it being like this during beta.

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Originally Posted by Renka777

i just had a healer who was doing nothing but healing on a 76 lvl dungeon,an astro player and guess what.. he was not even using a single divination,i was very very frustrated

i needed to go let go my frustration so i told him what i think about his "gameplay" right after the last boss death(without any bad words) and i left instantly,if i was with friends he would be instant kicked after the 1st pulls/boss ,i absolutely HATE players like that

edit : dont waste your time to argue with my post

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I would have reported you.
People come here to play the dang game, not stress out
because they aren't up to your standards. It doesn't matter if you said
bad words or not, you still could have been really rude otherwise.
And then you left so you didn't have to hear what he had to say...
You'd basically be kicking the healer...just
because he was healing. Wow.

Edit: And I just want to say, these newer dungeons are hard hitting at times
and until you get into the groove and stuff you have to heal a bit more than
normal...so I dunno why you felt so mad because he didn't use 1 skill...

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Originally Posted by Jybril

I would have reported you.
People come here to play the dang game, not stress out
because they aren't up to your standards. It doesn't matter if you said
bad words or not, you still could have been really rude otherwise.
And then you left so you didn't have to hear what he had to say...
You'd basically be kicking the healer...just
because he was healing. Wow.

Edit: And I just want to say, these newer dungeons are hard hitting at times
and until you get into the groove and stuff you have to heal a bit more than
normal...so I dunno why you felt so mad because he didn't use 1 skill...

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This right here is the reason I don't talk during dungeons/raids/trials, and just attempt to remove people who are comic levels of bad.

Sadly no one size fits all approach to your question, it all depends on the person and only thing you can do is either do your best to not let their style of play bother you, or say something and risk the outcome positive or negative. For me personally tone does not matter, if someone offers me advice I will look into it ask around and it turns out to be valid I will adopt it. I will do this if someone was detailed or simply told me to kill myself, it boils down to self reflection in my opinion. People get caught up with how the information is given instead of looking at as to why the info was said in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.

When I was leveling SCH in steel vigil (first healer class I've actually played that high), I was in a group and I thought I was doing ok, but I kept running low in MP. I had no idea why or if that was just what I was supposed to expect. I was managing with lucid dreaming and energy drain (I think???), but just barely. Then one of the DPS asks me if I'm using Ruin II most of the time, which I was for the instant cast. He kindly points out the MP difference btwn that and Ruin I, which I had overlooked b/c I'm a noob to the job. I switched to using Ruin II only when I needed to move and made Ruin I primary: no more MP management issue.

He just started with a simple question about what what ability I was using, and yeah I tensed up a bit when he first asked cus you can't hear tone in text and the question's phrasing could have been either a genuine interrogative or a setup to tell me I wasn't DPSing enough or something, and I didn't know which way it would fall. But I'm not an idiot and chose to answer civilly, and then I got a much appreciated bit of correction.

My point here is maybe, if you think someone is missing or misusing something in their skillset, I'd say just ask them about it. Maybe with "Genuine question" at the start or end, to keep them from misreading your question as accusatory when its not intended to be. I wouldn't just start with telling them how to do better, though. Asking a question first treats them like they're people who have brains and are capable of understanding concepts, which can only be helpful for you. It also lets them express their case for why they do a thing a way they do a thing if they wish. Being told at just annoys people b/c they have not even agreed to your authority and to learning anything from you, yet.

All that said, I generally don't care about how others play as long as we are actually clearing the content. But when I do run into unexpected wipes, I ask questions and try to examine what's gone wrong, so the above idea still holds, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

To answer the question posed directly: you don't.

To elaborate—

There are a couple of really important human being things that many MMOs players don't seem to understand. First, unsolicited advice — no matter how well intentioned or polite it appears — is considered rude behaviour in civil society. Almost every single person who has ever received unsolicited advice recoils at it, most often with a, 'Who does this guy / gal think he / she is telling me what to do!'

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Anyone wasting another person's time invites and should expect criticism. They're lucky to get advice.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Anyone wasting another person's time invites and should expect criticism. They're lucky to get advice.

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The bar of what constitutes "wasting another person's time" varies wildly from person to person.

Case in point... the poster who hated the healer for healing. :D

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Originally Posted by Jybril

Edit: And I just want to say, these newer dungeons are hard hitting at times
and until you get into the groove and stuff you have to heal a bit more than
normal...so I dunno why you felt so mad because he didn't use 1 skill...

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Pretty much this. You can't really fault a healer that plays a bit more conservatory in a PUG situation. We don't know you, nor do we know your skill level, how much you can take or how much wiggle room we have. Just as you don't know us or our skill level. Assuming that were all on the same page and top skilled players right out of the intro cut scene is asking a bit too much.

I call it playing the game and not fussing over what the party is doing. First and last mistake is ever expecting fast, consistent runs out of randoms. Especially in leveling content.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

...

Edit: And I just want to say, these newer dungeons are hard hitting at times
and until you get into the groove and stuff you have to heal a bit more than
normal...so I dunno why you felt so mad because he didn't use 1 skill...

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I pushed all 3 healer from 70 to 80 via dungeons after the SB release. I assure you that the Astro had no time to waste on divination or card games with unmelted dungeon gear alone. It was (probably still is) very hard to keep up healing against 3 mob groups.
The same situation it is even impossible when your tank pulls 3 groups without proper cooldown use.

Unfortunately not everyone is going to play as well as they can, and it's just a fact of playing with randoms. All you can really do is just grit through it and play your job the best you can.

Everyone else has their own lives and not everyone is going to bother to look up job guides or learn openers, it's not unreasonable to expect the basics like the healer knowing how to heal or the tank knowing how to hold aggro and pop cooldowns, but anything beyond that is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Also I reccomend not cursing out tanks/healers or really just anyone in general for how they play. I get that it can be frustrating at times but tanking and healing anxiety is a thing and saying nasty things to them about their performance might make them quit their role completely, on the other hand, they'll probably be more open to advice and just pointers in general about how to play their job.

tl;dr: Don't be a jerk

I love healing. Placing regens then sitting on ground emote and watch ppl fight is fun to me hahaha.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Anyone wasting another person's time invites and should expect criticism. They're lucky to get advice.

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i remember when video games were considered a way to waste time.

Tactful way to inform someone they are playing badly:
-Leave

It may mean you have to requeue in 30m but would you rather sit in a dungeon with a bad player? or would you rather do something for 30m and then probably get a better group next time?

I dont even bother anymore. I just leave them. (which gets the point across even more if your a tank or healer)

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Attitudes like this are the reason why I quit healing in this game. I used to login after a long shift and enjoy healing and relaxing. Now if a healer is not doing big DPS, compensating for people’s mistakes / laziness and more... there bad.

I play this game to relax. People are turning healing into a stressful second job where you don’t get paid. It’s time for people to stop harassing healers about DPS, period.

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Argument has never been about DPS, it's about idling.

It's just that doing DPS is the only option after the healing is taken care of.


Pretty much everyone who's actually on that side of the argument would agree, as long as you're attempting to cast a beneficial skill every time the global cooldown comes up, you're fine.

It all has to do with fairness, if every other member of the party is expected to be using a skill every time the global cooldown comes up, the Healer should as well.
Remember the ABCs, always be casting.

If the healer is in a situation where every Global cooldown needs to be a heal, that's fine as well.




It's situations where stuff like this...

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Originally Posted by Mito123

I love healing. Placing regens then sitting on ground emote and watch ppl fight is fun to me hahaha.

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... Comes up where people are getting upset.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Tactful way to inform someone they are playing badly:
-Leave

It may mean you have to requeue in 30m but would you rather sit in a dungeon with a bad player? or would you rather do something for 30m and then probably get a better group next time?

I dont even bother anymore. I just leave them. (which gets the point across even more if your a tank or healer)

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I do exactly the same.
There is literally no point risking a ban by criticising someone on anything they will not listen, it will not change anything in the run I am attempting to do.
Just simply alt + F4, want to know why i did it? Guess why ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Tactful way to inform someone they are playing badly:
-Leave

It may mean you have to requeue in 30m but would you rather sit in a dungeon with a bad player? or would you rather do something for 30m and then probably get a better group next time?

I dont even bother anymore. I just leave them. (which gets the point across even more if your a tank or healer)

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I would rather remove the bad player, I don't get why people are willing to leave instead or just removing the horrible players until they learn that half-assing it isn't enough in dungeons/trials/raids.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Tactful way to inform someone they are playing badly:
-Leave

It may mean you have to requeue in 30m but would you rather sit in a dungeon with a bad player? or would you rather do something for 30m and then probably get a better group next time?

I dont even bother anymore. I just leave them. (which gets the point across even more if your a tank or healer)

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You would rather take a 30 minute penality over a 20 minute dungeon run?

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

You would rather take a 30 minute penality over a 20 minute dungeon run?

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Playing same thing for 1000 time, yaaaay eh

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I do exactly the same.
There is literally no point risking a ban by criticising someone on anything they will not listen, it will not change anything in the run I am attempting to do.
Just simply alt + F4, want to know why i did it? Guess why ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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If you simply request or point out an inefficiency there is no reason you will get banned. Kicked maybe if it's a party full of their friends.. but not banned.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

You would rather take a 30 minute penality over a 20 minute dungeon run?

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Personally I would try to remove the player I have having a problem with if the vote passes awesome if it does not I will leave. Way I see it if the group passes the vote the overall the voting majority felt as if the person in question was a problem so everyone is better off, in the sense no one has to play with another player they deem bothersome, if the vote does not pass the person in question really bothers me I will leave, if I can grit a bare it I will, more often then not no reward or time on my part is worth playing with someone I do not find enjoyable to play with. Though I rarely ever speak up and tell the person what they are doing wrong, more of the silent removal from group person.

I respect those that do speak up either be it kindly or harshly because at the very least they are making the player aware, I simply like to avoid confrontation when possible so more often then not if the vote for removal does not pass I just leave myself. End of the day everyone is correct it is a video game and each and everyone of us hopefully play for enjoyment, those everyone has differing styles of enjoyment and each side should no assume everyone has the same style of play, and simply use the vote kick feature more. Just how I feel about it, I do not think being removed or leaving a group as a waste of time, for me a waste of time would be playing a video game with someone or a group I do not agree with or can even stand. I do think if more people would value their own personal time in conjunction with enjoyment then this would be a non issue, since at that point it would be easier in my opinion for someone to take the removal be it by force via the kick or by the circumstance of simply not wanting to play with the group in question not as a personal attack but more so as a personal / group preference depending on the how the removal occurred.

Though I am an odd ball.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I keep reading about this stuff on the forums but given how rare I actually see it in game the situation feels a bit exaggerated.

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Conservatively, I'd put it at about 50% of runs, and this is for basic stuff like AoE'ing when multiple mobs are present, pulling multiple packs when the tank is getting tickled by small packs, having level appropriate gear, healers throwing out some dps spells when the tank is near max health, simple dps rotations, etc. This is for lvl 60+ content.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

You would rather take a 30 minute penality over a 20 minute dungeon run?

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Looking at it from the wrong angle. How much time will be wasted by the noob in the next several hundred runs they join because everyone refuses to do anything about it?

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

How often are you guys getting into dungeons where you actually feel burdened? I mean I’ve had an occasional bad DF run but the times I’ve actually felt like I was burdened have been extremely rare. I keep reading about this stuff on the forums but given how rare I actually see it in game the situation feels a bit exaggerated. I’m much more put off by someone having a bad attitude than I am someone still learning their job/rotation.

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Its definitely exaggerated. Also, its people having unrealistic standards for PUG groups. A lot of the examples of "bad" players I'm seeing bandied about are just players who, either intentionally or unintentionally, are not working at optimal efficiency.

But a healer who doesn't use DPS skills every possible chance during healing downtime, but the group all lives and the dungeon gets cleared, is not a bad player and they're not wasting your time. They aren't treating the dungeon like a savage run, yeah. But they kept you alive, the bosses died. It was fine.

The way some people are talking here, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground between "bad" and "optimal", but in reality there very much is one. If you *really* can't bear not telling them how you think they can improve, be kind about it and don't assume you know what they do or do not understand without asking them first. But overall, some people just need to chill.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Its definitely exaggerated. Also, its people having unrealistic standards for PUG groups. A lot of the examples of "bad" players I'm seeing bandied about are just players who, either intentionally or unintentionally, are not working at optimal efficiency.

But a healer who doesn't use DPS skills every possible chance during healing downtime, but the group all lives and the dungeon gets cleared, is not a bad player and they're not wasting your time. They aren't treating the dungeon like a savage run, yeah. But they kept you alive, the bosses died. It was fine.

The way some people are talking here, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground between "bad" and "optimal", but in reality there very much is one. If you *really* can't bear not telling them how you think they can improve, be kind about it and don't assume you know what they do or do not understand without asking them first. But overall, some people just need to chill.

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Out of curiosity, who are we to say if an standard is unrealistic, everyone has different standards. I do think it is safe to assume that most share the same end goal when running content which is to clear it, but is a goal itself a standard, or should it even be considered one? Do not get me wrong we can not agree with the view and when that happens people should leave or try to remove the element they do not agree with.

Also sorry English is not my native tongue