Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

Damage difference between smn and blm is insane. I played blm myself on e4s because our group would not have enough dps if I would play smn. That 1.5k extra rdps make huge difference can you clear the fight or not.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

BLM is exactly where it should be as a dps focused on nothing but damage.

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Is that so?

Can you please elaborate on why >10% rdps difference between jobs in the same role is ok? If your answer is "because raise" let me tell you already that's a moot point as history proved that having access to an additional raise is not such a valuable utility.

Incidentally, can you provide some info about your main character? Just a curiosity of mine, I like to know if who I'm talking to has the slightest idea about the main topic of discussion. Of course you're free to ignore me.

Mesuring real time clear against rDPS always will be a problem I guess.
If 2 teams starts an HL raid at 19h and the 1rst team ends at 21h30 with 10% dps less (cause SUM) while the 2nd team ends only at 22h30 with 10% dps more (thx BLM). The 2nd team has maybe a better video to show on youtube cause higher dps to show off while the 1rst could end the content actually faster and are glad of what they did even before the other group they know they struggled more than them.
As long as your team doesn't lack dps to clear, I see no real problems, especially if you're not rejected for that (which you can report as actually no job is not enough to clear content if played well). If we lower BLM DPS to fit the one of summoner, while we remove their Raise, will you be ok as no longer rDPS differences?
I understand people would like to have like a mode to have a trade off (kind of like role skill that would make you choose between safety (having raise) and "dps mode" (a stance with +10% dps?), but what I meant with my post is that real time clear actually matters too, which is what safety provides you. And restarting even just once a content makes you lose way more time than having -10% dps.

Nobody in their right mind asking lower BLM dps to the same as SMN dps, that will kill BLM... no need to repeat 4.0 tragedy!

Arent people hyperbole things too much!? People only ask to smaller the gap which right now is around 1500...

I also dont agree with just debuff SMN/RDM when they use raise, the should always pay the tax for just having it as an option, its just that the current dps tax is way too much for what its worth

Of course no one wants BLM to have as low dps as SUM, haha.
I was just saying. But then knowing people don't like nerfs. That means makes SUM and RDM DPS higher (from DPS or rDPS). What raise should cost then? 500dps? 800dps? What an instant raise should cost so most people are glad with the overall balance? Once again, what's the value of safety for real time clear instead of just "DPS" and "rDPS"?

I find it insane how BLMs and SMNs are always on each other throats while melee are allowed to be as overpowered as they can, MNK is better than BLM by every metric possible (always ahead on rDPS, sometimes ahead on aDPS while having Mantra which is not much but is something), but since SMN and RDM are clearly undertuned it's somehow BLM's fault, back in the beggining of SB it was the opposite, meta was basically 2 physical ranged plus 2 melee, but BLM's were all blaming SMN for their problems, while nerfing SMN would not give BLM anything and would just force triple melee when possible or someone would have to learn the clunky mess that was SB's MCH.

But I guess "muh melee uptime" while calculations are done with actual fight circumstances in mind and there not only melee (SAM,MNK,DRG) are killing everybody else bar BLM, there was the fact that I remember seeing numbers for Titania EX all but proving that lower percentile melees are doing more comparatively to lower percentile casters (I could go and do the same for the Savage Raids, but I'm lazy) and any melee that struggles even a little is going to receive love as soon as possible, with SAM and its huge gap to the 5th DPS being one of the priorities for buffs, while RDM and the physical ranged are ignored in the Living Letter.

I dont think thats how it work, you cant compare a melee to a caster or ranged they are balanced differently with each other plus and minus...

MNK, BLM, DRG is overpowerd everybody realize that, hence in PLL yoship mention bringing up NIN, SAM and probably SMN (i believe he didnt say anything about bringing SMN dps up), RDM is weird they actually have better rdps than SMN atm in e4s but people still lock them out... as for ranged right now you could said ranged is the most balanced compared to the other dps group...

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Originally Posted by Miminming

I dont think thats how it work, you cant compare a melee to a caster or ranged they are balanced differently with each other plus and minus...

MNK, BLM, DRG is overpowerd everybody realize that, hence in PLL yoship mention bringing up NIN, SAM and probably SMN (i believe he didnt say anything about bringing SMN dps up), RDM is weird they actually have better rdps than SMN atm in e4s but people still lock them out... as for ranged right now you could said ranged is the most balanced compared to the other dps group...

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I disagree, it's clear SE wants to force a 1+1+1+X (caster+melee+ranged+wildcard), the problem is that it seems X is always melee for some reason, while it should be way more interchangeable, the fact freaking SAM is getting a buff because of how OP others are (remove the clearly OP jobs and SAM is the most OP job by a long shot) and DNC or RDM are not even mentioned in the LL is concerning to say the least...

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

I disagree, it's clear SE wants to force a 1+1+1+X (caster+melee+ranged+wildcard), the problem is that it seems X is always melee for some reason, while it should be way more interchangeable, the fact freaking SAM is getting a buff because of how OP others are (remove the clearly OP jobs and SAM is the most OP job by a long shot) and DNC or RDM are not even mentioned in the LL is concerning to say the least...

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This game has always encouraged a double melee comp. We have 4 melee dps with 3 different gear sets (compared to 3 physical ranged and 3 casters that share the same gear). In a full party, having 2 melee dps ensures the presence of 4 melee (tanks+melee dps) and 4 ranged (healers+ranged dps), and this also makes the most sense in terms of encounter mechanics.
As such, the golden rule for the dev team should be the following: balance dps jobs so that all jobs belonging to the same role provide approximately equal rDPS, and differentiate roles so that melee dps>magical ranged dps>physical ranged dps. At the same time, the rDPS difference between roles should be lower than or equal to 1% of the combined rDPS of a well optimized party. This is how you achieve balance, there really is no other way. Do they want "utility jobs" to pay a utility tax? Fine, but let it be 1-2% max...not the mess we have now. The current situation is just laughable.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Nobody in their right mind asking lower BLM dps to the same as SMN dps, that will kill BLM... no need to repeat 4.0 tragedy!

Arent people hyperbole things too much!? People only ask to smaller the gap which right now is around 1500...

I also dont agree with just debuff SMN/RDM when they use raise, the should always pay the tax for just having it as an option, its just that the current dps tax is way too much for what its worth

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u are taxed For Raising.

its called the 260+ Potency Lose for using the damn spell :P lol, Even if BLM and Summoner equalled in DPS if the Summoners Rezzing players u think hes going to get a 99 percentile with you? No. ur taxed As its a DPS Loss to use the utility. same for RDM.

We are Double Taxed for it, Once upon having the Ability and another time for using the ability.

Raise is a Progression tool and has no lasting effectiveness among a Raid, as Once u stop dying u stop needing it. so no a Defensive Utility should not be Balanced Offensively, theres several punishments already surrounding raises.

the RDPS Summoner and RDM Provide should mean that BLM is above them in Personal DPS, however RDPS Is very different, this is Buffs+DPS Combined... our Combined totals SHOULD not be that far behind a BLMs. as The DPS we give you should make up for the DPS We Dont do compared to you.. so this should be the Equilising factor, thus Meaning theres No loss between taking a Supportive Job or a Pure DPS Job.. as they both Overall have the Same Value.

the raise meme needs to die, Because you are taxed for using it, its not a OGCD u cant weave it, you are losing DPS For the use of the abiltiy as ur giving up a GCD for the Raid and Caster GCDs can be rather huge in potency per ability.

its Significance to the first Enrage should not doom it for the Entire farm period of content. BLMS getting irritated by the idea of RDM being the Progressive job for the caster Role for 5 pull;s, yet Wonders why RDMs get irritated by having to swap across to BLM for the next 30 Kills of the clear. we're irritated about it for the same reason ur irritated about being unfriendly towards Progression.

the difference is they handed u guys Mobility and more to help battle this and did nothing to fix RDMs problems in Farm runs.

if u think verraise/Raise is soo good, take it, Nerf it, Its Really not worth the trade off we're taking for having it. Tbh i'd be More for Nerfing Caster rezzs and getting a 2nd Charge of Swiftcast.. it'll give healers More instant rezzs to support the loss of it in the caster role.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

I dont think thats how it work, you cant compare a melee to a caster or ranged they are balanced differently with each other plus and minus...

MNK, BLM, DRG is overpowerd everybody realize that, hence in PLL yoship mention bringing up NIN, SAM and probably SMN (i believe he didnt say anything about bringing SMN dps up), RDM is weird they actually have better rdps than SMN atm in e4s but people still lock them out... as for ranged right now you could said ranged is the most balanced compared to the other dps group...

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Look at the RDPS Difference between RDMs and Summoners :P its 14 DPS on titan Savage. litterally take out the top 4 (Monk/BLM/DRG/SAM) we're all within 15-20 DPS of one above , its REALLY close. and its because both Jobs are outclassed by BLM, the Caster roles being prioritized for BLM who have something dumb like a 2000-2700 DPS Lead on both of them. Why would u take a RDM above that.

260 potency is not the price for raise, people say it, it could safe a run so the price should be higher than that again not as high as the current price though...

Somewhere around 400-600rdps should be okay and just make it that SMN/RDM lost another 100rdps per use...(considering SMN stict rotation you may already paying things by casting a raise now... since youll be slide from party buff window)

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

This game has always encouraged a double melee comp. We have 4 melee dps with 3 different gear sets (compared to 3 physical ranged and 3 casters that share the same gear). In a full party, having 2 melee dps ensures the presence of 4 melee (tanks+melee dps) and 4 ranged (healers+ranged dps), and this also makes the most sense in terms of encounter mechanics.

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Gear doesn't matter with coffers, difficulty of playing actually favours casters (look at the numbers, at 25th on Titan BLM is losing to DRG and 400 rdps behind MNK, at 90th BLM is under 100 rdps from MNK this pattern repeats over every Savage encounter, meaning that BLM raises much more the better the player is and melee being harder is nothing but a meme), this idea that melee deserves to do more damage than casters because it was always like that just doesn't fly after you actually pick the numbers apart, I'm not saying tho that casters should by default do more damage either, but this idea that BLM and SMN are only competing between themselves needs to die, why can't a SMN get the DRG spot in a party, why can't a RDM be an alternative to NIN? It makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

Gear doesn't matter with coffers, difficulty of playing actually favours casters (look at the numbers, at 25th on Titan BLM is losing to DRG and 400 rdps behind MNK, at 90th BLM is under 100 rdps from MNK this pattern repeats over every Savage encounter, meaning that BLM raises much more the better the player is and melee being harder is nothing but a meme), this idea that melee deserves to do more damage than casters because it was always like that just doesn't fly after you actually pick the numbers apart, I'm not saying tho that casters should by default do more damage either, but this idea that BLM and SMN are only competing between themselves needs to die, why can't a SMN get the DRG spot in a party, why can't a RDM be an alternative to NIN? It makes no sense.

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The main thing with Red Mage is that Embolden naturally excludes other casters, and vice versa. The Red Mage is weaker the more casters are present, unlike Summoner who only benefitted immensely with the Magic Vuln when it was present, and Black Mage who doesn't care who their partners are.

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

Gear doesn't matter with coffers, difficulty of playing actually favours casters (look at the numbers, at 25th on Titan BLM is losing to DRG and 400 rdps behind MNK, at 90th BLM is under 100 rdps from MNK this pattern repeats over every Savage encounter, meaning that BLM raises much more the better the player is and melee being harder is nothing but a meme), this idea that melee deserves to do more damage than casters because it was always like that just doesn't fly after you actually pick the numbers apart, I'm not saying tho that casters should by default do more damage either, but this idea that BLM and SMN are only competing between themselves needs to die, why can't a SMN get the DRG spot in a party, why can't a RDM be an alternative to NIN? It makes no sense.

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I dare you to play NIN in Savage, and say that Melee DPS dif is a meme.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

I dare you to play NIN in Savage, and say that Melee DPS dif is a meme.

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NIN is hard because it's NIN not because it's melee...
Just to make my point clearer there is this idea that melee should have no tax to its DPS and everyone else should because hitting from afar is better than being close, however casting seems to be in any numerical analysis harder than keeping melee uptime (again talking about the community as a whole, I personally don't think hitting GCD after GCD on BLM is hard and every time I make a mistake I blame no one but myself), thus worse players lose more DPS on casters on average than melee, NIN and SMN are the two hardest DPS in the game, because their rotation is harder (so was MCH in SB) and it has nothing to do with my general point.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

260 potency is not the price for raise, people say it, it could safe a run so the price should be higher than that again not as high as the current price though...

Somewhere around 400-600rdps should be okay and just make it that SMN/RDM lost another 100rdps per use...(considering SMN stict rotation you may already paying things by casting a raise now... since youll be slide from party buff window)

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The other half of the punishment is the reduced overall RDPS caused by rezz sickness.

Also on top of this. It’s limited to the fact the ability is useless outside of progression. Your forgetting it loses value after first week of content release.

This is what is causing RDM to be a Prog meme. Because it’s utility is worthless once ur past progression.

600 rdps for raise is ridiculous. When u take into consideration that with the dps checks deaths will likely cause u to wipe,

It’s raise just lets u see more mechanics. It doesn’t help u win the raid. Because ur dps will fall too low with the debuff.

It seems top DPS are like ~12500dps on FFlog (some Monk at 13k+). Is it rDPS actually or just DPS?
So let's say Summoners can only do 12k instead of 12,5k you think it would be really ridiculous knowing their ability to make people progress more easily and remove stress from healers if they die? I don't see the problem of a so low difference if you can still clear content as long as you don't die with a nice clear speed.

Imo, the best to do so everyone agree would be to have a technical reason (other than "we don't value utility at all") to make every lower dps to the level of top dps about rDPS (as it's the HL raiding community mainly asking for it, which is understandable). So maybe let's add something to the BLM by buffing him with "strong selfish utility" to make him a safer pick in itself (as we know for several topics BLM don't want to spend time thinking about others dying around). We can't just buff everyone to the lvl of BLM minus 100rDPS and then telling them "and we are better cause we have X or Y utility you don't have".

BLM having this dps difference is the result of how bad they were seen as they are not as useful as the others casters and not enough powerful to be picked, so they were left aside. Now they made it, people say "yea but overall, raise is worthless once you know the game". There always will be a reason to defend a class or another. Maybe you're right and the difference is too high, or maybe they should find something worth about that difference (like as RDM has instant Raise, SUM could have a Raise that cancel that death debuff, why not).

Imo, it's not a solution to be taken seriously to say "we don't value the utility you provide us in order to progress and clear content, so give us more DPS/rDPS".

Another thing we could think about would to buff seriously SUM/RDM dps and have a debuff if they happen to Raise (the problem would be some would refuse to Raise, then, but well, there's maybe no perfect solution, and they would only Raise only in case all healers are dead (which is the purpose of their Raise, imo, to prevent a wipe when healers are dead).

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

I dare you to play NIN in Savage, and say that Melee DPS dif is a meme.

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I take it you've never met Monk?

#Is always 10-12k dps on a mch in endgame content.

Ya, you leave mchs out of this topic so they dont get gimped lol

Good boy =p

I just wanted to contribute my opinion:

Melee:
NIN: I'd like to see some potency buffs; I think the devs have been too heavy-handed around trick attack
DRG: a very small potency nerf or two
MNK: I think it needs potency nerfs to be brought more in-line with DRG
SAM: should be buffed to do around the same dps as BLM

Caster:
BLM: I think it's fine where it is
RDM: needs a buff, I get that verraise is great and all, but I don't think it should be more than 6-7% behind BLM
SMN: similar to RDM, but it's slightly less utility-oriented and I think should be closer to 4-5% behind BLM

Ranged:
BRD: I think it needs a utility (rDPS) improvement, and not at the cost of any damage; there's no reason it should be more than 2-3% behind DRG
DNC: similar to NIN, I think it needs a buff but only in the personal damage department
MCH: needs a potency buff, it should be just behind SAM & BLM

Other thoughts/additional comments:
- When I mention damage percentages, I mean in a typical raid setting, not on the dummy
- I don't think job difficulty should matter at all when balancing

I love it, overall similar opinion with you

@ rdps

if a class offers no other utility (mantra, rez, etc.), it should have higher rdps than classes that offer utility

if a class offers a "dps buff" (but no other utility), it should imo still have slight lower rdps than those that offer no buff (or utility), since those "buffing" classes are still very loved in parties (everyone likes to get buffed)

top rdps should be:
1) blm
2) sam (just very slightly under blm, since more physical buffs exist like embolden and brotherhood, sam can take advantage of more buffs
3) drg & nin
4) mch
5) smn (smn slight ahead of mnk, again cause of more physical buffs out there)
6) mnk
7) rdm & brd (maybe again rdm slightly ahead of brd? but rdm utility is very special)
8) dnc

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

@ rdps

if a class offers no other utility (mantra, rez, etc.), it should have higher rdps than classes that offer utility

if a class offers a "dps buff" (but no other utility), it should imo still have slight lower rdps than those that offer no buff (or utility), since those "buffing" classes are still very loved in parties (everyone likes to get buffed)

top rdps should be:
1) blm
2) sam (just very slightly under blm, since more physical buffs exist like embolden and brotherhood, sam can take advantage of more buffs
3) drg & nin
4) mch
5) smn (smn slight ahead of mnk, again cause of more physical buffs out there)
6) mnk
7) rdm & brd (maybe again rdm slightly ahead of brd? but rdm utility is very special)
8) dnc

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ok, looking at smn overall utility, smn should probably be equally strong as mnk, even if more physical buffs exist..

so smn and mnk shsre the 5th spot

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

if a class offers a "dps buff" (but no other utility), it should imo still have slight lower rdps than those that offer no buff (or utility), since those "buffing" classes are still very loved in parties (everyone likes to get buffed)

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That's not how it works...not anymore, thankfully, as dps padding is now completely useless considering the new ranking criteria on fflogs.
Also, I feel like there's a need to reming everyone that dps is king is this game. Any defensive utility is useful as long as it allows healers to dps more or to avoid death (when content is new and players are undergeared). As such, the "utility tax" should be extremely low: ranged jobs are a good example of "reasonable" balance, with DNC being a tiny bit lower than the other 2 since it provides a little more utility in the form of curing waltz.

in reality, players still like and want paddig..

(probably also, so atleast their adps looks good)

edit:

top rdps should be:
1) blm
2) sam (just very slightly under blm, since more physical buffs exist like embolden and brotherhood, sam can take advantage of more buffs
3) drg & nin (they offer no utility.. just dps buffs)
4) mch (just a utility)
5) mnk & smn (both offer buffs and utility; even if there are more physical buffs out there, smn has good utility)
6) rdm & brd (offer stronger utility and buffs)
7) dnc

this is just an order of top to bottom rdps.., gaps should not be to big

even if utility is often best during prog.., classes with utility should still not have higher rdps than those with none (by small but noticable margins)

@Shiroe

The only utility MCH has is tactician (5% damage reduction on the party, 15s duration, 180s cooldown). All aiming jobs have some form of this, and it's unique in that it can be applied to all types of damage. However, SAM (as all melee do) has feint (lowers target's STR/DEX by 10%, 10s duration, 90s cooldown) and BLM (as all casters do) has addle (lowers INT/MND by 10%, 10s duration, 90s cooldown).

Feint can be applied to most tank busters (which are usually physical), and addle can be applied to most AoE damage (which is usually magical) in Savage. There are some exceptions, of course. The point is that the utility is pretty similar to MCH's tactician, perhaps even more useful as it is available twice as often. There is no reason to place MCH that much lower than SAM and BLM. I only personally placed it slightly behind SAM & BLM because there is a very small advantage to not being challenged by movement in modern Savage.

I think a lot of players still see MCH as it was in the past, where it had some ability to buff the party's damage and had access to utility like palisade. This is no longer the case. The job is very similarly "selfish" to BLM & SAM.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

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Snip

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No no and no. Logically think about what having pure dps classes as the best rdps classes would mean. It would mean they were the top pick by far.

Ive argued so many times about this. Pure dps vs dps ( with only utility dps buffs) the utility dps NEEEEEEEDS more potential rdps than the pure or utility dps is without value.

Ive mathematically broken down ideal distribution of dmg and why it matters too In other posts and linked earlier in this thread.

Raid dps (dps with only dmg utility) should have better total rdps at higher team skill coordination lvl. Pure dps are entirely self rraliant and can perform perfectly independend of team effort and therefore should not be the best in a TEAM BASED GAME. This is because a raid dps neeeeeeds the pure dps to reach its potential AND requires more team difficulty to play properly. A pure dps is self reliant and discourages cooperation. If a pure dps can outplay a raid dps even at the highest level then there is absolutely no reason to bring a raid dps. Please see my other posts with links and numbers about this.

Drg should be best 50th to 75th percentile.
Nin should be best 75th up lowest pdps even then.
Mnk should be ever so slightly lesser than drg for its odd mantra.
Sam should be the best 0 to 50th percentile always highest pdps.

Sam will still be valued tho because sam needs to be in party for any of the other three to hit their top value. Mnk drg and nin should be scaled in a way that they cannot reach their top rdps contribution without SAM ie SAM pdps needs to be the highest

Blm SMN and Rdm are odd cause of raise. They need to be more inline and something needs to be done about raise.

Ranged could debatably use a mild buff all around. And dnc needs to be buffed a little (only a little cause devilment scaling later will get crazy) and made less randon. Brd needs some of its utility back.

Even in the circumstance i describe above BLM and SAM will be the most common picks. Because the raid dps needs them both to contribute the most from their own utility. The meta would become SAM BLM a ranged and 1 mnk/nin/drg. With each ranged and each raid melee more valuable depending on the skill lvl of the group. Smns and rdms brought in for groups that have harder time with deaths.

This should point out that even if raid dps classes were stronger in raid pure classes would still have the highest meta comp value, which illuminated how grevious blm and sam being on top would screw things up. Not too mention if raid dps classes are that bad in 8 mans it means they are even worse in 4 man content.

Raid dps classes need to have th3 biggest potential or the meta will always completely exclude them. Last cycle nins were special not because of trick (which was overvalued) but because of the options shadewalker and smokewcreen opened up.

I do play nin so lets get that outta the way. If nins trick were removed i would still want what i said to be true, ie nin would then need to have less potential rdps than mnk and drg but have as good pdps as SAM such a Nin or Sam partnered with a Monk or Drg would yield the best output.

@Vendalwind

DPS who don't have raid buffs are very capable of teamwork: it's teamwork for them to take advantage of buff windows. I'm struggling to understand where your argument is coming from. An ideal meta would have some mixture of buff and non-buff DPS, and the various compositions would be so close that it would be a different meta for each fight. I might just not understand, but from how I'm reading your post, you want a meta constructed of entirely buff-giving DPS because it takes more teamwork (it doesn't) for them to synergize. The only exception to this would be a team created entirely from selfish DPS, which is currently impossible. Even if the composition is NIN/SAM/BLM/MCH, all 3 non-NIN have to make an effort to configure resources around trick attack for a faster kill.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

@ rdps

if a class offers no other utility (mantra, rez, etc.), it should have higher rdps than classes that offer utility

if a class offers a "dps buff" (but no other utility), it should imo still have slight lower rdps than those that offer no buff (or utility), since those "buffing" classes are still very loved in parties (everyone likes to get buffed)

top rdps should be:
1) blm
2) sam (just very slightly under blm, since more physical buffs exist like embolden and brotherhood, sam can take advantage of more buffs
3) drg & nin
4) mch
5) smn (smn slight ahead of mnk, again cause of more physical buffs out there)
6) mnk
7) rdm & brd (maybe again rdm slightly ahead of brd? but rdm utility is very special)
8) dnc

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Why is MCH? 4th? They provide no raid utitily outside of standard ranged party wide mitigation. At least MCH should be 3rd as Ninja/DRG bring fairly large raid wide damage increases overall.
Why is SMN 5? They have one of the longer cooldowns to provide raid wide dps increase.

You need to rework that top rdps:
1)Blm/SAM depending on uptime on the boss, more moving away from boss =BLM more uptime on boss = SAM
2) see 1)
3) MCH
4) MNK
5)SMN
6)DRG/NIN
7)RDM/BRD
8)DNC
And the disparity between the raid wide buff DPS need to be consolodated, but DRG should NOT be doing more than a ninja. They have a party buff as well as a single target buff on them, that's more than most other DPS in the game.

Lets be real here, all of SB and for the longest time Ninja/DRG have been staple melee DPS that you could never seem to ever want to remove for a MNK and during SB many parties didn't allow SAMs at all. The SB meta f'd over all the 'selfish DPS' because the raid wide party buffs/debuffs of utility far outwieghed the "selfish DPS" role to where you just stacked all of it until BLM finally got buffed to a high degree. The caster meta was then pretty healthy between SMN/BLM going at it but RDM got screwballed but not enough to segregate them away from groups.
SAM was still hard to be allowed in but MNKs were finally okay because their buff was still pretty good.

So now here we are, every group now seems to need a dps amp, where you need one of those selfish DPS to maximize the use of raid wide buffs, this should be the USE of the selfish DPS jobs. If they aren't this role, whats the point of them to begin with? Just stack damage buffs on the party like SB and what we have been doing since 2.0

After clearing E3S I got to the conclusion that the most important thing right now for 5.08 (I'm assuming this is only a potency/number change with QoL/reworks being done on 5.1) is to put each and every DPS at like 500 rDPS from each other without caring about defensive utilities for now, this huge gap in DPS is really killing us PF plebs (I refuse to block jobs in my parties other than forcing 1+1+1+X for that sweet 1% and no dupes for LB), I'm playing BLM but I can easily see some of my clears would never be done with a "lesser" job even if I got an orange parse and it's not fair forcing some people to clear only with amazing play while others can get by being average...

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

@Vendalwind

DPS who don't have raid buffs are very capable of teamwork: it's teamwork for them to take advantage of buff windows. I'm struggling to understand where your argument is coming from. An ideal meta would have some mixture of buff and non-buff DPS, and the various compositions would be so close that it would be a different meta for each fight. I might just not understand, but from how I'm reading your post, you want a meta constructed of entirely buff-giving DPS because it takes more teamwork (it doesn't) for them to synergize. The only exception to this would be a team created entirely from selfish DPS, which is currently impossible. Even if the composition is NIN/SAM/BLM/MCH, all 3 non-NIN have to make an effort to configure resources around trick attack for a faster kill.

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What he is trying to say is that NIN amd DRH jave no other utilities besides dps increasing ones.

He is also saying that in order for a NIN to reach maximum potential of rdps, a sam, blm, and mch should be present. Trick Attack scales higher the higher the pdps value. BLM will provide more rdps for NIN thsn SMN EVER will.

At max value, trick is showimg to give around 1000 rdps to the NIN as its contribution. If NIN even after accounting for this is still the lowest, why bring it? And im talking max value meaning with top pdps on the party, and it only gave around 1k. NIN is normally around 2k behind the next melee in pdps, which means trick is nullified.

the difference atm seem a bit big, but those are bit due to player skill and fight build up too

blm can have issues too, trying maintain uptime, or are forced to do more mechanics as ranged class

.. unless you look at the very highest parsers ( 90-100), sam and blm should be equal.., just sam can get more buffs (besides if a drg has to chose between a sam and blm eith equal dps, chain will go to the sam)

if there is no movemet / like on a dummy, blm should be top dps, even if only by a (very) small margin compared to sam (still Shoha can use a rework too)

l dont see why mnk (with utility, mantra) should have the same or higher rdps than drg and nin..

though mnk's dps buff is limited to physical buffs.., while nin and drg buff all

... so mnks rdps should only be slightly lower than that of drg / nin

though drg and nin were in the "meta" for so many expansions, they should still have less rdps than sam,.. but have a tick more than mnk

(overall the melee should all be very close, but sam top and mnk lowest;.. atm mnk beeing top of all dps is a bit wierd.., though since blm are learning the fight more and more, seems blm might be pulling ahead again,.. blm optimization is also learning the fight more and more.. and getting proc lucky on a run too)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

... so mnks rdps should only be slightly lower than that of drg / nin

though drg and nin were in the "meta" for so many expansions, they should still have less rdps than sam,.. but have a tick more than mnk

(overall the melee should all be very close, but sam top and mnk lowest;.. atm mnk beeing top of all dps is a bit wierd.., though since blm are learning the fight more and more, seems blm might be pulling ahead again,.. blm optimization is also learning the fight more and more.. and getting proc lucky on a run too)

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Im not sure if you are a bit confused about what rdps is. If you are not confused and know it, then you are asking SAM to be the meta melee that you double stack.

Buffed dps is now added to the total of the ones that provide the buff creating rdps. A ninja does a pdps of 10.5 plus 1k from trick (IF they have high pdps classes in the party synergizing with them) puts them at 11.5 rdps. If the next melee does a pdps of 12.5, a ninja is worthless by comparison. Note that 1k is a higher end value, when on average its more like 800 rdps.

SAM should be the highest PDPS of melee, because they are meant to synergize with dps buffs. Just the type of class brining the buff should change according to comp. If you are saying DRG and NIN should be lower than SAM on rdps, you are saying that drg and nin should be a penalty for a party taking them.

If you take a 2k dps loss for a utility that provides 1k, you see a raid wide dps loss of 1k.

I disagree heavily with the majority of "top" rdps lists here.

I think the top 3/4 jobs (BLM, DRG, MNK and SAM) are too far ahead in rdps contributions relative to the other jobs which are somewhat balanced. BLM stands out in particular as it is the only job in its role that fires ahead of both other casters. NIN is the weak link with regards to melee (and in my view the should be higher than DRG, MNK, SAM in terms of rdps slightly at the highest level) with SAM a bit further behind when compared to DRG and MNK. Ranged dps seem balanced, but I personally think DNC should be higher than BRD and then MCH last in RDPS at high levels (but notably similar at lower levels or pdps being better at low levels in general) of play whilst the reverse is true in adps order due to the reasons listed in the following quote:

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

I just wanted to touch upon the DPS capability of SMN in general as I don't think I talk about this too much.

Right now, both RDM and SMN are too low with respect to BLM. In fact, a lot of classes seem to be very close to each other but there are stand out jobs like DRG, MNK and BLM and SAM lagging slightly behind where as the others are a bit more closely matched. I'm certain SMN needs changes and with those changes, hopefully its DPS is brought up. But at the same time, the gap the top 3 (with SAM joining them if buffed) have over the other jobs is pretty mindboggling even when BLM is considered to be a purely DPS class, its ADPS should be higher but not its RDPS. RDPS ideally should be equal with a slight preferrence to utility classes. This is because they require good execution from everyone in the party to utilize their kit in these buff windows. Furthermore, the jobs with these utilities are always weaker in content that is solo or 4 man or anything less than 8 man content where as the "pure dps" jobs are always stronger in these areas. When these tools are not utilized optimally, their rdps would be lower and as such, when used at their maximum benefit, they should eclipse those "pure dps" jobs in terms of raid dps contribution via their own personal dps + the dps their utility has provided.

I would also note that ressurection does not provide ANY dps utility at a high level. However, their benefit is clear in pug groups when deaths are more common. The current state of balance is significantly worse than patch 4.5. If both RDM and SMN are being taxed for ressurection, then its better off removed entirely from both jobs as it creates an unequal balancing environment - I would personally already prefer this.

An example of patch 4.5 with the fastest speedkill in Final Omega:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/x6ajk...pe=damage-done

SMN had contagion here (10% Magic Debuff every 60s for 15s). However it hits only 4 people: BLM, AST, SCH and PLD (If holy spirits are aligned) in this group (discounting the SMN as its contribution to their DPS is part of their personal DPS). Further, devotion was 2% as opposed to 5% so its contribution was a lot lower.

Evyerthing considered, the gap was certainly not made up by these buffs alone (almost 1.6k dps) and I very much think they would be very close but I cannot see that anymore as the website I used has been discontinued. Discounting the buffs from BRD, DRG, AST (BLM got 2 extra balances), SCH from both jobs personal dps and adding contagion and devotion to SMN would certainly mean their raid dps contribution was a lot closer.

Monk provided both mantra and brotherhood which is an incredibly strong buff on a low cooldown and physical only for whatever reason when there no longer exists magical buffs. Dragoon provides both crazy personal dps and battle litany and dragon sight.

Where I'm going with this is that SMN should have a similar placing to Monk if not higher when everything is balanced. Previously, the rankings in 4.5 would go BLM, SAM, MNK/SMN interchangeable and I think this was a good spot. Right now, it should go BLM, SAM, MCH, MNK/SMN, DRG/RDM/BRD, NIN/DNC in terms of personal dps contribution. However, I don't think this is close to being true at the moment - DRG's placement is the only one I'm actually unsure about.

RDPS lists should be much closer but it goes without saying that the jobs closer to the bottom in terms of personal dps should be higher on this list due to my reasons above. It is also worth noting that I only believe these difference should be evident at the very highest levels of play. The lower the level of play, the worse utility jobs should arguably be and the stronger pure dps jobs should be. I.e. NIN/DNC, DRG/BRD/RDM, MNK/SMN etc The problem then arrises in the dps discrepency between MCH, BLM and SAM where MCH would be lower in rdps purely because it is mobile. Its worth acknowledging that hard casting is harder than being mobile. As a result, the top percentiles should see this difference and hopefully its more balanced when player skill is a bit worse. We should ideally only see these rankings at the top level. To those that think that pure dps jobs should be at the top of both lists - what would be the point of bringing jobs that provide dps utility on top of their personal dps in that case? If DPS utility cannot provide adequate enough of a dps gain to reach similar dps levels of RDPS of pure dps classes at low levels of play and higher at higher level of play, why should they suffer penalties in any content that is less than 8 man where they do MUCH less dps and their utility counts for less? Further, this is a team game and its my personal belief that well-used buff windows over a range of classes should generate the "fastest" speed kills. That is why there needs to be this difference in raid dps contribution where the jobs with dps utility are stronger than the pure dps jobs at the highest level.

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I think the top RDPS lists at the highest percentiles should always be the jobs that buff the most as they require good execution from party play under buffs.

Breaking the DPS down into tiers aka pure dps all in one tier etc with regards to personal dps, rankings for ADPS should be like this (They currently aren't):
1. BLM/SAM/MCH
2. MNK/SMN (I think SMN should be here)
3. BRD/DRG/RDM
4. NIN/DNC

Then the reverse of this should be true at the highest level for RDPS.

In this way the rankings should be:
1. NIN/DNC
2. RDM/DRG/BRD
3. MNK/SMN
4. BLM/MCH/SAM.

However, at lower percentiles play, say 70th percentile and below, the pdps classes and rdps jobs should be on par. The exact level of play required to achieve higher rdps on these dps "utility" jobs should be high so as to keep say a good blm/mch/sam/sam/mnk competitive and not as big of a difference when played well when compared to, say, the current situation of BLM vs. RDM/SMN in the list. Its true that the community DID tend to gravitate towards buffing comps. However, with the change to a certain external website, the focus is now on good "RDPS" who's comps are a lot more varied if any attempts to "pad" their own damage was to occur.

I really dont think top PDPS jobs should be top for rdps as they perform the best regardless of comp and in all content that isn't 8 man where as those that provide said "utility" are weaker in these areas. The idea that PDPS shouldn't be top RDPS isn't doom and gloom for them under the structure I have laid out and they would still be top dps even when party buffs are taken into consideration.

The current situation is not good. Ranged DPS collectively sit in an awkward spot where the possibility of another Melee DPS instead of a Ranged being optimal isn't so far fetched at the highest level.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Forgive me if I sound elitist, but...

You're playing Red Mage in a very suboptimal way if you're "constantly watching the party to make sure no one is going down." You're not a healer, it's not your job. Vercure isn't an off-global cooldown that otherwise costs nothing to cast; casting vercure costs anywhere between 305.44 to 421.64 potency because in the moments you're casting Vercure, you're not casting a damage spell. By stretching to try to handle the healer's job for them, you're actively working against your own job of doing damage. Vercure's best use right now is to get a dualcast ready for when the boss returns from downtime.

For the sake of argument though, let's say we do count it as utility. Well, RDM still shouldn't be taxed for having it, simply because using it comes with a tax. A tax of 306 to 422 potency. It's a stretch to say RDM should be double taxed for Verraise, but it's absolutely beyond the pale to suggest they should be double taxed for Vercure.

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Sure, I will be happy to reply. I get where you are coming from. I'm not a rdm main, but I do have it leveled to 80. Given no red mage should have to be watching the party in savage, everyone is expected to do their job at any given time. Savage and casual are different animals entirely. I main smn, my husband rdm. We play casual content. People die a lot in casual raids. A LOT. Often if you don't pick up the slack for healers it will be a wipe. I know this maining smn because ideally I should only have to raise every 60 seconds with swiftcast and often people are dying more often than every 60 sec. The only time I step outside of that on smn is if 2 healers go down or a dps is down and a dps check is about to come up.

Overall, my numbers were very respectable before Shadowbringers did what they did to smn. My method of constantly keeping an eye on party hasn't hurt me so far, at least for my playstyle. I keep the party window in the same field of vision as the screen so I can see both at the same time.

I don't think rdm or smn should be taxed at all for rez honestly. It's a dps loss. I think they should count it as a wash and go on. Any smn or rdm mains who think it should count against us? I doubt it. We all know how annoying it is. I'm not for removing it, it's too useful in casual content. I do think they should balance the numbers based on embolden and devotion. Vercure and phx regen are so situationally useful, but more often not. However, our numbers definitely feel too low. Low enough that many of us who'd faithfully played a certain class for years feel like we might seek out greener pastures.

Honestly, it feels like SE put more emphasis on Shadowbringers and less on the rotations and dps. Maybe they figured they'd rebalance after? Whoever did NIN and SMN rotations didn't do a good job. They definitely dropped the ball on balance and a couple jobs rotations.

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

@Vendalwind

DPS who don't have raid buffs are very capable of teamwork: it's teamwork for them to take advantage of buff windows. I'm struggling to understand where your argument is coming from. An ideal meta would have some mixture of buff and non-buff DPS, and the various compositions would be so close that it would be a different meta for each fight. I might just not understand, but from how I'm reading your post, you want a meta constructed of entirely buff-giving DPS because it takes more teamwork (it doesn't) for them to synergize. The only exception to this would be a team created entirely from selfish DPS, which is currently impossible. Even if the composition is NIN/SAM/BLM/MCH, all 3 non-NIN have to make an effort to configure resources around trick attack for a faster kill.

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Sphere of influence love. Yeah the whole team has to work around trick, but they wouldnt have to if it wasnt there. The nin brings yhe trick and thus brings inherent difficulty. What i posed is how you make the ideal meta.

When you break things down quite simply what i propose is how you get that ideal meta where numbers are close and different classes will excell at slightly different fights, but otherwise be similar in output.

If pure dps are ahead always in rdps there will always be a no utility manner. The state of the game right now is not that because of mnk and drg who are crazy strong. But caster slot is definately given to the pure dps right now blm. Sam is too weak right now compared to mnk drg, but still strong compared to the current cast.

So when i talk about ideal, its not with respect to current balancing, its with respect to just optimal play regardless. Rdps utility classes make other people play harder as you said. Therefore by that metric alone they need to be capable of exceeding a pure dps situation or they are nothing but extra baggage.

And you should re-read my post. The meta in my theoretical hopes could never be all buff giving classes, the meta situation i tried to describe is where you want effectivly: 2 raid buff 2 pure dps: or 1 raid buff 2 pure 1 special utility, or 2 raid 1 pure 1 special utility and all three comp styles are capable of cleaeing all content.

The big point is if pure dps have best potential rdps (remember rdps subtracts what they are given from buffers) then there is no reason to being any buffer classes at all and the game would degenerate 2 sams 1 blm 1 mch with no alternative comp at all.

Thing is rdps classes having the best potential contribution, well thats cause their contribution that makes them excell is team coordination. Blm and sam effectly own part of that big number on the NIN rdps log cause without them it wouldnt be obtainable.