Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Play AST, then you can play with cards during those moments

---

I do play AST. I still find time to DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Albinosmurfs

I'm just surprised how mad people get that they play with players of varying skill and attentiveness in a random queue... Not everyone is going to try hard especially for farm content in a random queue. If you want everyone you play with to try hard like you do then join a free company with that mentality and run things with them.

---

There is a fundamental difference between a bad player playing sub-optimally and someone intentionally being hot garbage. If I lldr into a dungeon where the healer has a sprout and they just spam cure I'm not going to give them grief about it. But if I get a sch who just /follows the tank and maybe rezzes someone who died because it was real obvious they aren't really paying attention, they can get bent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

I am going to quote a person from youtube named Sotrubaby when he stated "When you EXPECT a healer to dps, you EXPECT a dps to heal you". That is all that needs to be said!

---

That's exactly what I did many times as a BLM. PotD "Hey Kitty, stay back and heal". And I did :)
Of course me and my group died many times because the Heal was in DPS mode and didn't know how to handle Stance Dance.
On the other hand, me and my group died many times because the DPS was way too low, even when the heal was top. In that case I was sorry for the heal because of all his unrewarded effort till we made it to the boss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deviru

Man, this thread is moving fast. Anyway, here's my useless two cents, since I'm sure someone totally cares--

I agree with Yoshi-P for saying that healers shouldn't be expected to DPS. That said, the changes make it easier than ever to DPS, and you very much will be idling for half of the fights if not longer if you don't DPS. Either way, I'm not going to kick someone for not DPSing in a dungeon. It's not worth causing a ruckus, nor do I think I have the right to kick someone just because they're making me spend an extra five, maybe ten minutes in dungeon. Your 12.99, your choice (provided you aren't being an asshole to other party members.)

However. With that said. Healers that only heal really do have to accept that their playstyle IS inferior. If you get mad when people tell you you're a bad healer or that you're lazy when you make the choice to not DPS when you already understand the encounter and know when the proper time for DPSing would be, you are, in fact, a worse healer than one that manages to keep the party alive AND squeezes in their DoTs and a couple Broils/Malefics/Stones. That's just a fact, no real debate to be had there. If you're cool with that, then cool. Just don't get mad at people for stating facts (I'm seeing a lot of that in this thread.)

Honestly, though, for me, healing without DPSing is so mind-numbingly boring, I don't really get people that choose not to do it. But I don't have to understand them to choose not to kick them from a party when finding a new healer queue'ing in progression would probably take longer than simply keeping your mouth shut and trudging through the dungeon would.

Edit: Consider, for example, a Dragoon that never uses Heavy Thrust. Maybe they're doing everything else perfectly, following their rotation to a T, and doing decent damage. But they're missing out on a 15% damage increase that would be exceedingly easy for them to utilize. Is it worth kicking them from the party for not using it? Probably not. Hell, maybe they're even doing decent damage if they keep all of their other buffs up. Are they still inferior to a Dragoon that does all of those things AND includes Heavy Thrust upkeep? Yep, sure are.

---

I agree. Yoshi-P has said on multiple occasions that they tune battles in a way that Healers are not taken into account when it comes to DPS and that the Tanks contribute minimal damage towards the total DPS count. As you progress through each tier, you will get gear which will help you progress further. You should be able to clear the top tier raiding content with that in mind.

But, Raiders will always strive to be better and get the most out of their classes. It’s those people who will look for more efficient ways to heal, in order to make room for additional DPS. Or tank switching stances from tank stance to dps stance so that they contribute as much DPS as possible. It’s those people who will be able to clear Raid content faster than others and i applaud them for that, since it’s not an easy feat.

However, that same mentality doesn’t work for all players within the game and it should not be “forced” upon them. Performing their primary function comes first. For Healers that means healing and for tanks that means maintaining hate. Everything else is an added bonus.

You could say that this is the basis for FFXIV that Yoshi-P intended for their game. It’s up to the players to devise strategies to clear the content that is given to them.

In general it depends on the situation the party is in, if you can ask/expect a Healer to DPS in. There are plenty of situations where practically no Healing is required, so they can DPS to their hearts content. However, there are plenty of situations that even a more experienced Healer will not be able to DPS, even if they want to.

One of the main factors is the damage the party is taking. I’ve been in way too many Dun Scaith runs, where the party kept getting hit by avoidable damage and the healers run out of mana due to amount of people they needed to raise and heal only. Being aware of your surroundings and act upon them accordingly plays a very big part in the overall performance of an individual, whether or not they are a Healer, Tank or DPS.

Now, if there is no healing required and you are simply standing there twiddling your thumbs, you should have ample time to insert at least some attack spells in there. In situations like that, the average group will ask the healer to contribute at least some DPS to the encounter. That’s fine.

As a member of a group, you should keep the following rule of thumb at heart, which is “knowing your ABC’s”. The “ABC” stands for “Always Be Casting”.

Not every Healer is as experienced or confident as the other, so they might feel hesitant to cast attack spells because they feel that the group make take (critical) damage at any second and they want to be prepared for that. I know i’ve been one of those Healers at the start of 2.0. As you run more and more content, while gearing up your healer, you will start to feel more confident in your healing abilities. So, if you find yourself standing there, doing nothing, start with placing DoT’s on the target. Every little bit helps. After that, slowly work your way up to the “ABC” i mentioned earlier, until you feel comfortable with it.

A few people used the word “Downtime” when it comes to healers standing around, do nothing because there is nothing to heal. That’s not what i call “Downtime”. “Downtime” for me means that you are running out of MP and you do not have the resources to cast spells, forcing you to wait while you regain MP. For instance, when you had to sit down in FFXI, on order to regain your MP faster, or eating food in WoW.

If a healer still have most of it’s MP left, you still have resources to spend on your spells, so there is no real reason to consider that as actual “Downtime”.

But, like i said earlier, not every Healer is as experienced or confident as the other. You can’t simply judge a player based on not dpsing during a duty if the healer is lazy or bad. You can only say that with certainty if you know the actual person behind the player. So, because if that, i don’t judge people based on the DPS they put out as a healer. However, i will “judge” based on the skills they do use during the duty. I wrote “judge” between quotes, because i don’t kick people from my party unless they go out of their way to try and get us killed or they are intentionally locking themselves out of the boss encounter.

As long as they can keep the party healthy and we can finish the duty smoothly, i don’t really care.

If you want to make sure that you run with like minded people, the best way to do that is to run content with people you can trust and know what their capabilities are. Just don’t “force” the “Raider”-mentality on the healers or the “I’m only here to heal”-mentality within the game. Aim for smooth runs instead and find a way to work together in clearing the duty.

And most importantly! Have fun while doing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Healers are both dead and no summoner in the party. "Rez us RDM!"

"Can't I'm not a healer I'm a dps."

---

RDM: "Can't. MP Potion on cooldown. And BLM don't want to share his MP with me"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arkdra

There is a fundamental difference between a bad player playing sub-optimally and someone intentionally being hot garbage. If I lldr into a dungeon where the healer has a sprout and they just spam cure I'm not going to give them grief about it. But if I get a sch who just /follows the tank and maybe rezzes someone who died because it was real obvious they aren't really paying attention, they can get bent.

---

Why are you so salty about healers in farm content. With content that easy how do you get so mad about people not taking it very seriously....

It's not mandatory to be a good player. But to be a good player, it is mandatory to DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

RDM: "Can't. MP Potion on cooldown. And BLM don't want to share his MP with me"

---

BLM: Sorry guys I'm not using my mp sharing ability because that would lower my dps and dps is my only responsibility.

The reason healer DPS is not included in calculations is because wiggle room needs to be left for shit going south. If healer DPS was included, if you happened to get a group that liked to bathe in the bad you may as well abandon the dungeon because you wouldn't be able to complete it. This is NO WAY means you shouldn't be expected, by your group, to fully contribute if things aren't going south.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deviru

Anyone remember the Conjurer class quests? Boy, I sure do.

---

This all-so-popular image doesn't show what is actually going on and why she says that line in the cutscene, and instead is just being used out of context for spite and memes.
Y'all need to go back and give those quests a careful watch/read again.

I won't rely too much on Yoshida's words since they don't know how to balance correctly healer and don't know how healing works in their own game.

We'll talk about it again the day they'll design battle with so many damages that we'll need to save mana for healing only.
That's all I have to say.

He can't say there's no expectation for it, because the expectation for it is imposed by the community, not them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

BLM: Sorry guys I'm not using my mp sharing ability because that would lower my dps and dps is my only responsibility.

---

SMN: I haven't taken any role ability that does not increase my dps.
PLD: *Ignores chat as replying would detract me from building upon my already excessive enmity lead*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Averax

He can't say there's no expectation for it, because the expectation for it is imposed by the community, not them.

---

Over and over again players will end up doing things the devs didn't intend because players will try anything to squeeze out the most numbers possible. The FFXIV devs may have never intended healer stance dancing in instances to be a thing at all, but it happened because players saw an easier way to meet dps checks or just do content faster.

Very often the players decide the expectations of roles. The most devs can do is change things to discourage what doesn't align with their vision.

Yoshi P may state that but that will not change the mentality of the community.
People will always complain if healers do not dps

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aramina

The reason healer DPS is not included in calculations is because wiggle room needs to be left for shit going south. If healer DPS was included, if you happened to get a group that liked to bathe in the bad you may as well abandon the dungeon because you wouldn't be able to complete it. This is NO WAY means you shouldn't be expected, by your group, to fully contribute if things aren't going south.

---

Exactly.

Gordias is an example of necessitating healer DPS. It was quite literally impossible for even World First caliber players if their healers didn't DPS, which completely undermines dedicated DPS roles whose whole purpose is to kill things. That doesn't mean healers shouldn't contribute damage, just that their damage shouldn't be a requirement to meet DPS checks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maero

Yoshi P may state that but that will not change the mentality of the community.
People will always complain if healers do not dps

---

*will always complain if other people do not play the game in the most efficient way they think is correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Natsuno

SMN: I haven't taken any role ability that does not increase my dps.
PLD: *Ignores chat as replying would detract me from building upon my already excessive enmity lead*

---

WAR: *riding pld for aggro because be never left tank stance because he is a tank*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Exactly.

Gordias is an example of necessitating healer DPS. It was quite literally impossible for even World First caliber players if their healers didn't DPS, which completely undermines dedicated DPS roles whose whole purpose is to kill things. That doesn't mean healers shouldn't contribute damage, just that their damage shouldn't be a requirement to meet DPS checks.

---

Except that is high end raid content and people are complaining about healers in random dungeons. Good try to change the whole point of the thread though :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penthea

The most devs can do is change things to discourage what doesn't align with their vision.

---

And the most amusing part of all is they removed stance dancing thus making it easier to dps and increasing the expectation that people would. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rasylia

*will always complain if other people do not play the game in the most efficient way they think is correct.

---

Shock horror. People don't respond well to lazy players looking to skimp by content by having them do all the work. Hate to break it to you, but if I have 300 casts in a fight and you have 100. I've done three times the work and may be a little salty about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Albinosmurfs

Except that is high end raid content and people are complaining about healers in random dungeons. Good try to change the whole point of the thread though :D

---

It's an example of how necessitating healer DPS in any content wouldn't be good design. It leaves no wiggle room. That doesn't mean healers should get to be lazy because dungeons are easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

Why is it ok for healers to get easy mode and DPS have to work so hard? This is by the so called game design you are advertising. How is that fair? I am at the border line of saying Yoshi-P does not understand what goes on if he cannot see why people dislike seeing DPS needing these split second tight rotations while healer gets easy mode.

---

This is purely subjective. I find healing classes and dps classes easy and tanking harder and stresses me out. You are giving an opinion and stating it as fact. Furthermore, it is a bit whiny on top of it's subjective nature. If you don't like what the "difficulty or perceived busy nature of a class/role change classes. Play what you call easy mode. Don't complain someone else is "doing less than you".

Furthermore the level of hubris displayed by players telling the head of a game that he has no clue what HIS design intentions are is simply astonishing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feidam

Furthermore the level hubris of players to tell the head of a game that he has no clue what his design intentions are is simply astonishing.

---

No one is saying he doesn't know what his design intentions are, but he has a very bizarre way to implement those intentions. If that is hubris, then so be it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Shock horror. People don't respond well to lazy players looking to skimp by content by having them do all the work. Hate to break it to you, but if I have 300 casts in a fight and you have 100. I've done three times the work and may be a little salty about it.

---

Shock Horror, stop acting like i am your target. I always play to my very best, be it as stupidly easy content like sastasha or anything else.

The only thing i am against is the mindest that people think they have to force this playstyle onto random people they meet in DF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aramina

And the most amusing part of all is they removed stance dancing thus making it easier to dps and increasing the expectation that people would. :)

---

A side effect of SE removing/simplifying stats, I'd wager. Not sure if they realized the can of worms they opened with that, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Shock horror. People don't respond well to lazy players looking to skimp by content by having them do all the work. Hate to break it to you, but if I have 300 casts in a fight and you have 100. I've done three times the work and may be a little salty about it.



It's an example of how necessitating healer DPS in any content wouldn't be good design. It leaves no wiggle room. That doesn't mean healers should get to be lazy because dungeons are easy.

---

Did you even watch the video the post is about. Yoshi said that healers need to dps for high end raiding content.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aramina

And the most amusing part of all is they removed stance dancing thus making it easier to dps and increasing the expectation that people would. :)

---

That's exactly how I feel. Unless the mana efficiency of healing and/or dps is significantly reduced, we're going to see even more demand for healers to dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Albinosmurfs

Did you even watch the video the post is about. Yoshi said that healers need to dps for high end raiding content.....

---

They need to dps, yes, but the content is purposely not tuned for it because if it was we get Gordias again. Extreme dps checks with almost no wiggle room.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feidam

Furthermore the level of hubris displayed by players telling the head of a game that he has no clue what HIS design intentions are is simply astonishing.

---

Intentions are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what is on your hotbar and how it works.

Does this mean I can stop using aoe attacks as a melee dps? It stresses me out. As long as I single target I'm doing my job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aramina

No one is saying he doesn't know what his design intentions are, but he has a very bizarre way to implement those intentions. If that is hubris, then so be it.

---

Actually few people did go back and reread. Also, giving healers dps skills so they can solo and level themselves without being beholden to other players is not bizarre design. Seems kind of basic in a game where everyone can solo.

My personal play style of healer is I like to throw dps when able while playing a healer. I like the hybridesque feel of the game play. Yoshi statment is pretty much trying to let people know to quit forcing a certain play style on others imo. He gave us the intended role of a healer. He didn't say dpsing on a healer was bad, but he did say the class wasn't designed for you to be required to do so.

After reading thru this thread the only conclusion I can draw is that the way healers are treated by this community is disgusting. Healing in MMOs was always a thankless job but now it's gone from a thankless job to a job that's looked down upon and in some cases treated with open hostility. I'm not sure how any healer can read this thread and not consider re-rolling to a different role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khaidal

Does this mean I can stop using aoe attacks as a melee dps? It stresses me out. As long as I single target I'm doing my job.

---

Your role is to do damage, do your best to get out the most numbers, single target and in groups.
So, no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feidam

Also, giving healers dps skills so they can solo and level themselves without being beholden to other players is not bizarre design. Seems kind of basic in a game where everyone can solo.

---

If it were only meant to be able to dps in the world then CS would have been disabled withing dungeons/raids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanston

After reading thru this thread the only conclusion I can draw is that the way healers are treated by this community is disgusting. Healing in MMOs was always a thankless job but now it's gone from a thankless job to a job that's looked down upon and in some cases treated with open hostility. I'm not sure how any healer can read this thread and not consider re-rolling to a different role.

---

Because I *am* a healer and the only thing I find disgusting is people thinking it is ok for ANY role to sit there and look cute for over half of a dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanston

After reading thru this thread the only conclusion I can draw is that the way healers are treated by this community is disgusting. Healing in MMOs was always a thankless job but now it's gone from a thankless job to a job that's looked down upon and in some cases treated with open hostility. I'm not sure how any healer can read this thread and not consider re-rolling to a different role.

---

I would not blame them if they did re-roll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arrius

Your role is to do damage, so do your best to get out the most numbers, single target and in groups.
So, no.

---

Right. It just means don't ever expect goad, vercure, verraise, any mana refresh or any skill from a dps that does not improve their own dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rasylia

Shock Horror, stop acting like i am your target. I always play to my very best, be it as stupidly easy content like sastasha or anything else.

The only thing i am against is the mindest that people think they have to force this playstyle onto random people they meet in DF.

---

I wasn't. I was responding to the notion people get upset when they're carrying someone.

They are, likewise, forcing you to accept their unwillingness to contribute. Just because it's DF doesn't mean people have to like it. Your decisions on how to play doesn't exempt you from the scorn of others, especially if you're being lazy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khaidal

Does this mean I can stop using aoe attacks as a melee dps? It stresses me out. As long as I single target I'm doing my job.

---

Yes and you have to stop using your buffs as well. Really big stress. Also tanks should also stop using their shields. Too much stress to handle. Let's all play by pressing our basic 3 button rotation only.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Right. It just means don't ever expect goad, vercure, verraise, any mana refresh or any skill from a dps that does not improve their own dps.

---

I never expect them to be used. Setting the bar of expectations on DF DPS really low on this. Always a bonus if they get used in a smart way though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I wasn't. I was responding to the notion people get upset when they're carrying someone.

They are, likewise, forcing you to accept their unwillingness to contribute. Just because it's DF doesn't mean people have to like it. Your decisions on how to play doesn't exempt you from the scorn of others, especially if you're being lazy.

---

English Language, "You" is used for everything. My bad then for feeling attacked.

Fun fact though, the way you describe it makes it look like none of the people here complaining are any better than the actual people they complain about.