Take it easy on the Nerfing :/

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Serious version of the above post:

If you want challenge, do content when it's new.

The longer something sticks around, it's made easier by equal parts people becoming accustomed to it, gear outclassing it, and SE cutting the numbers a bit because they believe extremely correctly that those looking for a challenge have gotten it from it already.

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There you go, you got it, yeah..if I wanna play the game as a brand new player 6 months after content came out, I want to play it how it originally came out, not nerfed stuff.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Savage being released was an afterthought, and one that people did not care for in the end, as the argument of wanting to do something for a challenge falls short there.

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This is important. People whine up a storm whenever content gets nerfed because "OMG THE CHALLENGE," but what they REALLY mean is that they want rewards gated behind inaccessible content so they can cement their superiority in numbers: not only can they claim to be more skilled, but they can BE numerically superior. Which in itself is telling, because I bet you these players don't divest all their i130's to do FCoB at the minimum ilvl for the challenge. That'd be inefficient for farming up all the loot, which is what they're actually there for: to get exclusive rewards and lord them over the peasants. All this challenge talk is code for wanting to keep the gap between them and those they view as their lessers as wide as possible.

If Savage was done RIGHT, it'd normalize item level, so that gear is not a factor and thus unnecessary as a reward. You succeed, or fail, by virtue of your skills, not your gear. You get rewards that show your success, but don't give power. But you just know, given what we've seen, that such a model would be a massive flop, because what these people want isn't challenge. It's the smug satisfaction of being demonstrably better than other players.

The flaw in the design (and this doesn't just apply to Savage) is that players have grown accustomed to being rewarded with the most power when they need it the least (once they've cleared the content). Sure, the hardcore players "earned" their loot, but do they NEED it? All they're doing once they've cleared a tier is farming it, and they've shown by virtue of clearing that they don't NEED the extra power, they just want it for efficiency. You know who NEEDS that power? The casual static still struggling at First or Second Turn, because maybe they're not as coordinated, or don't have as much time, and could clear with that little extra oomph. All you're doing by depriving them of power is widening the gap between them and the hardcore, and fostering a community of sociopaths, posers and social Darwinists, which describes the raiding population pretty accurately (and I speak as someone who was part of this crowd in college and knows better now).

You can't pander to these people, because what these people want requires excluding the majority of the playerbase from content that, at least in this game, is story-relevant. I don't expect Yoshi-P and crew to be particularly brave with this, but I do welcome incremental content nerfs and player buffs to at least allow players to get a clear that won't be entirely irrelevant for a few weeks.

No one does Savage because the reward is nothing worth the trouble. A title? Really? :x Not worth the effort ^^;

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There you go, you got it, yeah..if I wanna play the game as a brand new player 6 months after content came out, I want to play it how it originally came out, not nerfed stuff.

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Wow (not the game). This is rich. It's practically saying: "Square Enix, cater to MY needs NOW because I could start playing your game six months from now!"

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Originally Posted by Iromi

There you go, you got it, yeah..if I wanna play the game as a brand new player 6 months after content came out, I want to play it how it originally came out, not nerfed stuff.

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Honestly if it's been 6 months, it's going to be relatively easy compared to on release anyway either due to familiarity (HM primals for example), overgearing, or both.

Increased familiarity doesn't apply as much to SoF because realistically, your typical player would not do it again because there's nothing to farm out of it or being required for a constant objective (such as the original trio HMs for either light farming or base relic quests).

I can't really vouch for "overgearing" either, me and two other dps who were Ilvl120+ would attack vishap throughout the fight (and I mean these are people that can meet the dps check for T13... not someone off the mill) and we'd still get vishap down sometime after the barrel explodes, with full uptime on the cannons and DKs.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

No one does Savage because the reward is nothing worth the trouble. A title? Really? :x Not worth the effort ^^;

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So a challenge without superior gear rewards is a challenge not worth taking, despite the desire for a challenge?

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

The guys who have been blessed with young age, fast reflexes, unlimited time to play and people who pay their bills.

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Oh I know right?, personally I think SE tries to cover the content difficulty spectrum, Heavensward may expand content well enough to suit everybody, we'll see.

Sometimes I think there's some kind of unspoken retirement age from MMO's, say in the 40-50 area somewhere, lol, I just dinged "53".^^

XI was pretty much a scroll and click ability game, while XIV is much more button mash/dodge intensive, couple this with all the flash bang graphics and my participation in any challenging content comes in shorter sessions now so I don't Achilles heel my own FC mates.

My son laughs at me because I logged for several years, ran jackhammers for several more, and swing a 4 pound anvil hammer as a farrier on regular occasions, this causes me to murder four $30 Logitech controllers with my grip, to his one about every 12 months, lol.

Anyway my MMO days are probably numbered.^^

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Originally Posted by Ablongman

This is important. People whine up a storm whenever content gets nerfed because "OMG THE CHALLENGE," but what they REALLY mean is that they want rewards gated behind inaccessible content so they can cement their superiority in numbers: not only can they claim to be more skilled, but they can BE numerically superior.

If Savage was done RIGHT, it'd normalize item level, so that gear is not a factor and thus unnecessary as a reward. You succeed, or fail, by virtue of your skills, not your gear. You get rewards that show your success, but don't give power.

But that's not what these people want. It's not even about street cred, it's about keeping success (and its rewards) as exclusive as possible.

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Right. That's another reason I can never feel any sympathy for "these people".

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Originally Posted by Ablongman

This is important. People whine up a storm whenever content gets nerfed because "OMG THE CHALLENGE," but what they REALLY mean is that they want rewards gated behind inaccessible content so they can cement their superiority in numbers: not only can they claim to be more skilled, but they can BE numerically superior.

-snip-

It's not even about street cred, it's about keeping success (and its rewards) as exclusive as possible.

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This is pretty much it.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

So a challenge without superior gear rewards is challenge not worth taking, despite the desire for a challenge?

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Not sure what world you live in...but people are not going to do something like that that offers no reward at all, because guess what? No one is going to waste their time for something that is not beneficial to their time.

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

Wow (not the game). This is rich. It's practically saying: "Square Enix, cater to MY needs NOW because I could start playing your game six months from now!"

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Um..no. That is what the other person was saying. I am basically saying that the content should stay the same. LOL It goes both ways. I don't think you quite understand what is going on...are you sure you are still in this conversation? That is way in left field. You are basically describing yourself.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Not sure what world you live in...but people are not going to do something like that that offers no reward at all, because guess what? No one is going to waste their time for something that is not beneficial to their time.

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And who are you to say that the challenge/titles itself isn't worth someone's time? Welcome to the real world.

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

...
My son laughs at me because I logged for several years, ran jackhammers for several more, and swing a 4 pound anvil hammer as a farrier on regular occasions, this causes me to murder four $30 Logitech controllers with my grip, to his one about every 12 months, lol.

Anyway my MMO days are probably numbered.^^

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Don't despair. I am several years older than you. I have stopped raiding some years ago (I raided in WoW), but can still speed clear the Expert Dungeons even when the other DPS is subpar. Never kept my groups from winning Trials, either. The secret is continuing to have fun, and never relent to elitists. :)

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

"Casual" and "Hardcore" are hard to define.

The generally accepted definition is the following:

Casuals don't raid endgame content in a static. As a consequence they rely on nerfs and/or carries to clear what otherwise it would be impossible for them.

If your bf is in a static raiding at specific times tackling the endgame of each given content update, he is not a casual - no matter how much he plays in terms of number of hours.

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Nope, he does not have a static.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

And who are you to say that the challenge/titles itself isn't worth someone's time? Welcome to the real world.

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The fact that SE themselves said that no one is doing savage like they expected should speak for itself. As for me, personally, I will play anything regardless of its reward at least once, because its fun. To me, a game is about having fun. I am speaking about what SE said when they brought it up in the live letter. I'll believe them over anyone else , as they have access to data, clears, and how many times people attempt something. So that, is who I am to say that. :)

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Originally Posted by Iromi

...Um..no. That is what the other person was saying. I am basically saying that the content should stay the same. LOL It goes both ways. I don't think you quite understand what is going on...are you sure you are still in this conversation? That is way in left field. You are basically describing yourself.

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Don't worry. I understand what is going on, am still in this conversation, and am not describing myself.
AND I had got your point that "content should stay the same". It's exactly what I am arguing against. In a MMO game, content should change in time.

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

Don't worry. I understand what is going on, am still in this conversation, and am not describing myself.
AND I had got your point that "content should stay the same". It's exactly what I am arguing against. In a MMO game, content should change in time.

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That is your opinion and you are very much entitled to it. That it should stay the same is mine. That's all really :) In the end SE will decide how it is done anyway, but all we can do is just voice our opinion on here, and hope they take it into consideration.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

That is your opinion and you are very much entitled to it. That it should stay the same is mine. That's all really :) In the end SE will decide how it is done anyway, but all we can do is just voice our opinion on here, and hope they take it into consideration.

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Well, fair enough. By the way, I like your cosplays. :)

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

Well, fair enough. By the way, I like your cosplays. :)

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Oh thank you so much :) *bow* You are too kind haha :o

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

So a challenge without superior gear rewards is a challenge not worth taking, despite the desire for a challenge?

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Actually I tried very hard to get people to do savage coil but the amount of people who will bother with it are very slim due to there being no gear reward at least on my server. I really want to clear the savage coils but meh. If someone cries for a challenge but won't touch challenging content if there's no superior gear rewards then I question why they are crying for a challenge in the first place? Do they merely want to run around with their gear for the sake of epeen and public bragging and enjoy the challenge simply because it locks other players out from having what they have? Then that is rather sad. It makes me wonder how many people are really like me and, while loot is cool to have, I get my personal satisfaction just beating the challenging content which is why I mentioned earlier that not being able to beat T13 before echo nerf was devastating to me.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Do they merely want to run around with their gear for the sake of epeen and public bragging and enjoy the challenge simply because it locks other players out from having what they have?

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Yep.

In the vast majority of cases, people that complain about content being made easier are just mad that the "casual scum" will now have access to the stuff that they have.

Probably the real reason that SE nerfed FCoB was because the time between the last big patch and the expansion was pretty big. Most non-raiding players already had all their Poetics gear so they made Coil easier so they could draw these players to it. That and they probably want more people to get access to the storyline in Coil. It's very telling that the next endgame raid will have a "normal" and "hard" versions.

Gear motivates the majority of the playerbase to do content that is just the way it is. Personally I would like to do savage mode because I like to do the hardest content but finding 7 other people that will want to do savage mode is very hard. Unlike FCoB where it is very easy to find players to do the content because it drops gear.

Which is why in Havensward the savage modes will drop the best gear so many more people will want to do it.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

The fact that SE themselves said that no one is doing savage like they expected should speak for itself. As for me, personally, I will play anything regardless of its reward at least once, because its fun. To me, a game is about having fun. I am speaking about what SE said when they brought it up in the live letter. I'll believe them over anyone else , as they have access to data, clears, and how many times people attempt something. So that, is who I am to say that. :)

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Speaks for itself? Hardly. If no one at all, like you claim, enjoyed a challenge for the sake of a challenge/titles then no one would have cleared Savage Coil. Players have done Savage Coil, that can't be denied. That right there throws your statement out the window.

How many players do is another matter, but this: "Not sure what world you live in...but people are not going to do something like that that offers no reward at all, because guess what? No one is going to waste their time for something that is not beneficial to their time." is hogwash.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Gear motivates the majority of the playerbase to do content that is just the way it is. Personally I would like to do savage mode because I like to do the hardest content but finding 7 other people that will want to do savage mode is very hard. Unlike FCoB where it is very easy to find players to do the content because it drops gear.

Which is why in Havensward the savage modes will drop the best gear so many more people will want to do it.

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That's very facile logic though, isn't it? "It is that way because it is that way, so it will continue to be that way."

People are herded into FCoB to get gear because they can't get that gear, which is often BiS, any other way. That's the expectation that's been created, but it doesn't mean it HAS to be that way.

Look at it from this perspective: If power (gear) was all players wanted, F2P games would directly sell power in their shops. A few do, yes, but not all do. Yet their shops sell. What do they sell? Things people want. Put those things in raids, and suddenly you have player motivation!

If FCoB dropped unique glamour items, if the achievements unlocked alternative animations and spell effects, if it dropped unique mounts, wouldn't people do them?

Heck, we don't need to go that far. EX Primals are being farmed to oblivion to this day, and have been for months and months. Would you struggle to find an EX farm party? Not at all. Why not? It's not because they award power. It's because they award something people want that ISN'T power. They've been desirable for longer than FCoB.

Just food for thought! I don't disagree that Savage is not very popular outside of statics because of its reward scheme. I don't think that means gear is the only solution, because we've seen that's not true.

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Originally Posted by Ablongman

I don't disagree that Savage is not very popular outside of statics because of its reward scheme. I don't think that means gear is the only solution, because we've seen that's not true.

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Savage mode was created for a specific reason and that was to offer extra challenge to those who want it. It's not very popular because in fact most players don't want challenge. But it's there for the few who do. There's a limit to how much you should try to herd people into doing what they don't like to do in a game. If it's designed to be highly challenging, then it shouldn't have exclusive rewards, because exclusive rewards would force everyone who wants those rewards into having to do Savage Mode whether they want to or not. That in turn forces nerfing "savage" mode to be accessible to everyone, at which point it no longer serves its purpose for the people it was originally designed for. This holds true regardless of whether those exclusive rewards are powerful gear, cosmetic gear, mounts, or whatever. So long as they're both desirable and exclusive, Savage mode won't stay savage.

What it can offer, however, is a faster way to get some of the rewards that would be a long grind or rarer drop elsewhere. That can provide some real reward for the people who do the harder version without forcing it on those who don't want to.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

If it's designed to be highly challenging, then it shouldn't have exclusive rewards, because exclusive rewards would force everyone who wants those rewards into having to do Savage Mode whether they want to or not. That in turn forces nerfing "savage" mode to be accessible to everyone, at which point it no longer serves its purpose for the people it was originally designed for. This holds true regardless of whether those exclusive rewards are powerful gear, cosmetic gear, mounts, or whatever. So long as they're both desirable and exclusive, Savage mode won't stay savage.

What it can offer, however, is a faster way to get some of the rewards that would be a long grind or rarer drop elsewhere. That can provide some real reward for the people who do the harder version without forcing it on those who don't want to.

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Well, I don't think exclusive rewards would be an issue, provided those exclusive rewards do not provide a numerical advantage that widens the gap between those who are capable of pulling off gear-adjusted Savage versus those who cannot in areas where gear numbers would matter (i.e. FCoB).

But I do think having an alternative that checks persistence rather than skill to obtain those items would be reasonable. What is key, in my opinion, is that the power-as-reward method is problematic and should be abolished entirely from progression content.

One possibility would be to replace the stuff in FCoB-equivalent content with other desirable items for players who clear it (including glamours so they can distinguish themselves), keep power rewards as tomestone gear that trickles equally across all who do "endgame" content (and incrementally ease the cap to allow people who are late to a tier to meet gear requirements to join endgame raiding), and suddenly you have a playing field where the skillfull can set themselves apart without an unnecessary power gap. A skilled player can already maximize a character's potential and do far more than an average or subpar player, so to stack a huge power differential on top of that, like what we had prior to the WoD weekly, is just unnecessary.

Why can't a juicy reward be behind a challenge barrier or somehow it's unfair and unreasonable?

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Why can't a juicy reward be behind a challenge barrier or somehow it's unfair and unreasonable?

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Because unskilled players are hell bent on taking down skilled players a peg.

Then they'd get confused when the skilled players doesn't want to have anything to do with them after all that "you don't matter, we're more than you" garbage they keep spouting.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Because unskilled players are hell bent on taking down skilled players a peg.

Then they'd get confused when the skilled players doesn't want to have anything to do with them after all that "you don't matter, we're more than you" garbage they keep spouting.

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lol, what a load of rubbish. Do you people even read what you write anymore?

is it safe to assume that people are only talking about this still because they are waiting for the expansion pack to come out?

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

lol, what a load of rubbish. Do you people even read what you write anymore?

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You can prove what he says as rubbish by offering a counter-argument instead of simply calling it "rubbish" which would make you look a lot more mature rather than an angry kid who didn't like something someone said on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

You can prove what he says as rubbish by offering a counter-argument instead of simply calling it "rubbish" which would make you look a lot more mature rather than an angry kid who didn't like something someone said on the internet.

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So a guy accuses a bunch of people of being "unskilled", and then goes on to spout out some conspiracy that said "unskilled persons" are out to drag others down "to their level". This, by the way - an accusation that is completely baseless and founded on absolutely nothing. I'll let you decide on whether or not that might also be seen as immature and angry.

Square Enix deploys and develops patches based on their Hard Data, which they collect from their players and servers. They make changes based on actual numbers, and has nothing to do with the emotions of people, and judging by the vitriol just within this one thread - Thank the Twelve for that.

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Originally Posted by Darkshaunz

angry.

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Just because you don't like something someone said and something someone said hits a 'nerve' doesn't automatically make it an immature and angry post nor does it automatically discredit the person. If you feel something someone said is complete "bullshit" you can simply counter it with why it is "bullshit". Also his reply was in reference to my comment just before that making your reply just now irrelevant to what that person was saying because my comment was about why we can't have nice rewards locked behind a challenge barrier.

The moral of the story is that people will bitch and whine no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Also his reply was in reference to my comment just before that making your reply just now irrelevant to what that person was saying because my comment was about why we can't have nice rewards locked behind a challenge barrier.

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But your post wasn't the one called rubbish. Your comment regarding rewards locked behind a challenge was perfectly valid and on-topic, (regardless of who agrees with you or not). It was Gardes post that started spewing vitriolic conspiracy theory that everyone is out to get you which was called a load of rubbish. There's no "countering" it because there's no argument there to counter, just meaningless insults.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

is it safe to assume that people are only talking about this still because they are waiting for the expansion pack to come out?

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Pretty much. Next Thursday they will give us more details about the expansion, and this will subside for about 3 days.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Because unskilled players are hell bent on taking down skilled players a peg.

Then they'd get confused when the skilled players doesn't want to have anything to do with them after all that "you don't matter, we're more than you" garbage they keep spouting.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

lol, what a load of rubbish. Do you people even read what you write anymore?

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

You can prove what he says as rubbish by offering a counter-argument instead of simply calling it "rubbish" which would make you look a lot more mature rather than an angry kid who didn't like something someone said on the internet.

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Elusana, Telling Skivvy that he sounds like an angry kid on the internet is hypocritical. There was nothing in the first post for him to "debate" as you offered he should have done, because Gardes' post was conjecture. Last time I checked, it is pretty impossible to debate conjecture.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Pretty much. Next Thursday they will give us more details about the expansion, and this will subside for about 3 days.

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A whole three days? I give it a day and a half at the most.....

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Originally Posted by SummerSkye

Elusana, Telling Skivvy that he sounds like an angry kid on the internet is hypocritical. There was nothing in the first post for him to "debate" as you offered he should have done, because Gardes' post was conjecture. Last time I checked, it is pretty impossible to debate conjecture.

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Yet the conjecture is the only person to reply to me with any kind of answer the rest were comments of people angry at the conjecture. So what am I supposed to feel now? I haven't been given one 'serious' reply to my comment except that conjecture. Am I to believe that the reason we can't have any rewards being locked behind a challenge barrier because, in fact, unskilled players will bitch about it until things change and they are allowed to have the rewards too?

OR, am I going to get a serious reply to my comment instead of calling the only reply I get "rubbish"? I've heard NO counter argument at all. It's clear that people considered that conjecture to be vitriol and otherwise cancerous yet has anyone offered an opposing viewpoint? Nope. Therefore that cancerous reply is the only one that looks like a 'serious' reply because the rest of the people are just calling it cancer without giving their own "non-cancerous" ideas.

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Originally Posted by TAS

I understand the desire to help newer and struggling players complete content but is Nerfing truly necessary for all content presented to us that was (Reasonably) challenging?

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http://blog.binweevils.com/wp-conten...blogimage1.png

But seriously the fight wasn't hard, as is the case with most nerfed content outside of coil raids. The problem was that it was poorly explained. Maybe some highlights like DB marks on the cannons and snares to indicate when to use them might be helpful. Its a pretty busy fight and with the awful camera control underneath vishap it makes things more complicated for new tanks. Personally I feel like they should have just used V.O. for the guards as people seem to understand instructions more easily then just reading text splashed out on the screen (think Dragon Age, Elder Scroll or even CoD).

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

am I going to get a serious reply to my comment instead of calling the only reply I get "rubbish"?

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To be honest, I believe that skilled players SHOULD have access to juicy rewards locked behind difficult content. Rewards that the more casual players either have to a) get better to attain or b) forget about attaining. I agree with you on that point.

Here is the reality of the situation, sadly: As much as we love this game, and enjoy all the things that it has to offer, this game (like most MMOs) is a business. So what happens is that they are economically forced to cater to the "lowest common denominator" of player in the player base. They do not want Billy the Paladin giving up on a MSQ duty and going back to WoW or Wildstar. I boils down to money, sadly.

I agree with you. To put a juicy reward behind a challenge barrier is not disallowing a paying player to have access to "all" the content in the game. It is right there for them. It merely requires them to socialize and get better to attain it.

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Originally Posted by SummerSkye

To be honest, I believe that skilled players SHOULD have access to juicy rewards locked behind difficult content. Rewards that the more casual players either have to a) get better to attain or b) forget about attaining. I agree with you on that point.
...
To put a juicy reward behind a challenge barrier is not disallowing a paying player to have access to "all" the content in the game. It is right there for them. It merely requires them to socialize and get better to attain it.

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I would agree with this if the hardest content in the game were solo content. But like most (likely all) MMOs, the hardest content requires not just a skilled player, but a whole team of skilled players who are familiar with each other's gameplay.

Many players have real lives that don't allow for their gaming to follow the sort of regular predictable schedule that would make it possible to join a static group. No matter how skilled they are at the game, their job, and the specific content they're trying to complete, they can still only complete content that can be done by one skilled player and 7 other random unknown people that joined their PUG. The only content that's available to all paying players is content that's PUGable.

That leaves the only options as:

1) Make the hardest content in the game easy enough to do in a pick up group. Of course, this is going to anger any statics who want challenging group content.

2) Exclude most of their paying customers from any access to the content they're paying for.

3) Make sure all the rewards are available through easier content, and that the most challenging content simply provides somewhat faster access to them, along with the pride and enjoyment that comes from the challenge itself.

Since #1 and #2 both have some pretty major drawbacks, #3 is really the most viable pattern.