Real Money to Get In-Game Currency: Eternal Bond Edition

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

There is no illegal RMT or legal RMT. The strong arm of the law does NOT apply here, only SE's TOS, unless there is some serious money laundering scheme going on thru in game currency.

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The word illegal does not apply only to law. Sports, for example, have illegal actions. It simply means forbidden.

Darn maybe I got your game wrong. But yeah the game I played was also filled with bots and spam bots too but I was still able to overcome all of that and buy cash shop items with in game currency so I never had to spend any real money on anything it was great :)

Excuses heard in the last couple months:
"2 retainers are not pay to win, they are just convenience, not P2W"
"Minions don't affect gameplay or gives you any advantage combat wise, not P2W"
"Mounts don't affect gameplay or gives you any advantage combat wise, not P2W"
"Selling dyes or bracelets for gil can't get you the BiS set or give you the skill to clear Final coil, so it's not P2W"

Amazing how the previous excuse of "don't affect gameplay or gives you any advantage combat wise, not P2W" dissapears....
The mental gymnastics some people do just blows my mind...

Being able to exchange real world money for in game currency that can speed up the development of your character puts this in a similar category of GW2 or hearthstone in terms of income model (everything is achievable without money but paying money can significantly speed up the process). Neither of those games have a subscription due to this. The market for the bracelets may have a cap on them in terms of demand but the willingness to support or facilitate this activity shows a cross over of financial models. I completely do not support this. If a game is a subscription model, my rate of advancement should be based on time and effort spent in the game not what addition money I am willing to throw at the company.

Personally I would love more than anything to spend gil to buy another retainer if I can be totally honest. My inventory is always full and my retainers are always full.

If someone is going to pay real money for an Odin Mount and I want it but I don't want to spend real life money on it I would like to buy it with my gil from the guy that did. He can trade his hard earned real money for my hard earned in game gil. I really don't see these huge problems that everyone seems to be seeing. I hate to even go here cause I don't want to offend anyone but probably the people that are so against this maybe just don't have much real life money? And they're mad because someone that does can speed up in game processes and they can't afford to =/

Someone said earlier time = money. Which one is worth more? Everyone gets to decide for themselves what is more important to them. Some people pay less money and take way longer driving to California from New York rather than flying because they want to save money. Some people pay more money and take way shorter flying to California from New York because they want to save time. Some people pay even more money than that to fly first class than to fly economy class because they want to "save" their knees (i.e. more comfort :)). I think that's reasonable, don't you? So if the guy wants to not beat his head against the wall grinding for gil in a video game and he can afford to pay the amount to just buy the gil, why not let him? I don't know about you but I would much rather that guy go spend his time benefiting someone somewhere with whatever he does for a living than spending time grinding gil in a game.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Umm.. that is broken logic. I am not sure you should be so proud of that. Millions of people die from car crashes and millions of people die nuclear weapons, so lets ban both because the effect is the same... right on.

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Logic needs to take variables into consideration, you can't do that, that's why you used this atrocious example, and that's why your logic is the broken one, try to leave personal attacks out, because that's the fast way to make your point false.

Anyway, the damage is done, no matter how you name it, people just use what they have, the thing is this kind of transaction is known as legal RMT in other games, but it's usually justified because, well, you don't pay a monthly fee to play those

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Originally Posted by CrimsonOrion

Would that game you're referring to have outrageously priced atlas which has to be bought via a Cash shop then sold for equally outrageous price on the MB? Because that game was great until then. And this one could face that same fate.

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Well the game I refer to is called Granado Espada or Sword of the New World (old NA version). It's an old game from 2007?I think. Anyways I played this game's open beta and I fell in love (except for the freaking bots o well). I created my character in a Singaporean server because at the time I don't think they had a NA one yet. At first they had announced it was going to be pay to play, which made me happy. They stayed like that for a bit. Apparently that didn't turn out well... and they decided to go F2P. When it was pay to play it was more balanced and there were less bots. Once it went to F2P all hell broke loose. lol Ofc, they make more money now I bet, "milking the whales" (it's a saying in that community that means getting all the money they can from people who spend lots of cash in that game) but the community is kind of dead, same as servers.The game has no life anymore. The only ones who keep it barely afloat are the "whales", funny term. lol I'm only awaiting sadly, the game's death, anytime soon. :/

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Originally Posted by ManweSulimo

Darn maybe I got your game wrong. But yeah the game I played was also filled with bots and spam bots too but I was still able to overcome all of that and buy cash shop items with in game currency so I never had to spend any real money on anything it was great :)

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Haha, well aren't most F2P Korean games like that anyways? XD I think it could've applied to any.

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Originally Posted by Renik

Logic needs to take variables into consideration, ...

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Correct, but you did NOT that, that is why you make false statements like the "The effect is the same, so it's RMT", because failed to take into account the variables. That is logically false, and to top it all off you can not prove the that effect is same either to start with.

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Originally Posted by BigPapaSmurf

....The REAL ISSUE with this is it is HORRIBLY INEQUITABLE TO PLAYERS...

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In simpler terms, "it is not fair", that is the cash shop can potentially provide unfair in-game advantage. But how do you define fair. Should players with more game time have an advantage over those that do NOT? Why is that fair or equitable? Is it fair that players that have more RL friends who join them in game have a natural advantage over all the other players, or the solo player? What is so unfair about a player that can use RL funds to buy vanity items? BTW I think they are really silly wasting their money, but I am glad SE can get their donations and we are better for it if it pays for better server and more content. I am not so certain this all that cut and dry.

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Originally Posted by BigPapaSmurf

... but the IRL wealthy can become wealthy in-game without having to do any in-game work besides trading the item.

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It should be a game for fun and not work, yes? Are you upset at flippers who are good at playing the market and buy low and sell high on the MB? RL wealth can come in many forms, for some it could be that they can get all the time to play because they have dividends and interests income that pay for everything, or their parents do and they can live the basement without problems. The exchange of time and money flows both ways.

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Originally Posted by ManweSulimo

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It's all well and good that you think that.

The thing is. Games that follow this Pay to Win model are Free to Play games.

FFXIV operates on a paid subscription. It is not an F2P game.

And on another note, Yoshida and the devs have promised that the game will not go P2W. We expect them to keep their word.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

Well the game I refer to is called Granado Espada or Sword of the New World (old NA version).

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I loved that game too! The family idea was genius. I like the type of "Gambit" system they had (you set your chars to do certain things when an enemy is close, blah blah), but yeah, the bots ruined it when it became F2P. Here's to hoping this game doesn't follow that same line.

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Originally Posted by TurnBased

It's all well and good that you think that.
FFXIV operates on a paid subscription. It is not an F2P game.

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I guess I am hoping that this game won't fit into the box of either one if the two things are the antithesis of each other. Maybe this game can balance and have the best of both worlds? Dunno. I know that not everyone will like everything and there's nothing anyone can do to make everyone happy but personally I think this game is freaking awesome and this stuff doesn't affect me in a negative way and I'm sure there are tons of people that this is also the case for.

to be quite honest, I'd pay 3-4 million for the full dyeable wedding package and mount. I however will not spend 20-40$ for it. I can find a dozen RL things I'd rather spend that 20-40$ on.

I dont understand why they didn't just give us the option in game to either buy the weeding package with Gil or go to the mogstation.

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Originally Posted by KagatoAC

to be quite honest, I'd pay 3-4 million for the full dyeable wedding package and mount. I however will not spend 20-40$ for it. I can find a dozen RL things I'd rather spend that 20-40$ on.

I dont understand why they didn't just give us the option in game to either buy the weeding package with Gil or go to the mogstation.

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Because they know, unlike you personally, there are plenty of people who would be willing to drop $10-$40 on an MMO's cash shop they like just like there's millions who will spend $1-$10+ on FB/Mobile in-app purchases.

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Originally Posted by KagatoAC

I dont understand why they didn't just give us the option in game to either buy the weeding package with Gil or go to the mogstation.

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At least players would have both choices while following their own judgements about the whole ethical question, that's what Arenanet actually do with gw2, you can either bank with real money or trade ingame golds for cash-shop currencies, where it start to not be ok with GW2 is the fact that you can directly convert real money into ingame golds :x which is pay to win.......... does it sound like something familar to anyone? :p Meanwhile GW2 is a F2P game, FFXIV isn't.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Because they know, unlike you personally, there are plenty of people who would be willing to drop $10-$40 on an MMO's cash shop they like just like there's millions who will spend $1-$10+ on FB/Mobile in-app purchases.

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Her point wasn't don't offer it for irl cash, just additionally offer it for in-game purchase.

Nothing about her post assumed there aren't people who are willing to drop money into a cash shop, yet your reply acts as if she implied that.

Please check for context when replying in the future. I notice you ignore context a lot.

at least we dont have lockboxes...

Yet.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

at least we dont have lockboxes...

Yet.

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I think this will be the defacto cash shop thread? At least now it'll all be consolidated instead in tons of different threads.

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Originally Posted by BigPapaSmurf

Her point wasn't don't offer it for irl cash, just additionally offer it for in-game purchase.

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If they offered it from in game means it would devalue their cash shop. It would be a bad business decision to do what KogatoAC suggested and reduce potential cash shop sales by offering an equivalent in game option while not offering any additional monetary benefit to SE.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

If they offered it from in game means it would devalue their cash shop. It would be a bad business decision to do what KogatoAC suggested and reduce potential cash shop sales by offering an equivalent in game option while not offering any additional monetary benefit to SE.

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while ostensibly true, many games offer a free option for a lot of things that can be purchased out of the cash shop. Making it a time saved vs money saved choice for the player.


though i have often seen this used to justify really outrageous cash shop prices while the developers tout that "you can get it for free anyway so we're going to keep charging these prices nobody will pay" in a strange tacit admission that they are exclusively whaling with their cash shop..

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

If they offered it from in game means it would devalue their cash shop. It would be a bad business decision to do what KogatoAC suggested and reduce potential cash shop sales by offering an equivalent in game option while not offering any additional monetary benefit to SE.

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This. SE knows people would buy it (just like they bought the other items), therefore if you personally don't want to buy it in the cash shop (as I stated) SE knows there's plenty more that will and that drove their decision. If you offer an in-game version, there's no purpose to the cash shop version. It's like offering a 90k gil/month sub with the same benefits as the standard $14 sub option and expect people to go with the $14 one.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

while ostensibly true, many games offer a free option for a lot of things that can be purchased out of the cash shop. Making it a time saved vs money saved choice for the player.

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While true, the free version is usually severely gimped, not as pretty or flatout lacking features/benefits. Much like in XIV's cash shop you can get a Free Eternal Bond option vs Paid options.

I... honestly don't see what the big deal is? It's not a i130+ weapon or armor set, it's not a key to unlock a dungeon or trial, it's not anything that will actually affect the core mechanics of the game. It's a bracelet that lets you see some fancy cutscenes w/ friends and get some vanity armor. Who cares if people can sell it for in-game currency? If SE didn't want this to happen or if it was some big no-no... they're not stupid. The option to trade it simply would've never been there. That or they would've changed it shortly after the patch went live.

Not to mention that the bracelets are actually going for less than what a RMT site could offer somebody for those prices, anyway. (On Balmung, that is. Not sure about other servers.) So... /shrug

I don't see what the big deal is either, gil isn't gonna get you anything that will break the game. Maybe help people finish of novus or something but nothing game breaking.

Shoot i bought 2 for 6mil gil. I had lots and I rather do that then spend 40 dollars for me and my girlfriend.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

While true, the free version is usually severely gimped, not as pretty or flatout lacking features/benefits. Much like in XIV's cash shop you can get a Free Eternal Bond option vs Paid options.

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Actually I've played games with cash shops where the same (non-gimped) items were available in game and people would still buy from the cash shop. Sometimes it's because they could get more (ex: if the item drops from dungeons, one can buy more than one can farm in X hours). Other times it's because the way to get it in game required doing a long quest or some other long experience and impatient/busy people preferred to just buy it.

Like if the dyes were untradable and required a 4 * craft, a lot of people would still buy from cash shop, while people who really want to not pay would try to make it (Not that I'm saying that's what it should be, just giving a quick example)

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Originally Posted by greekgeek

I don't see what the big deal is either, gil isn't gonna get you anything that will break the game. Maybe help people finish of novus or something but nothing game breaking.

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It completely breaks the market dynamic, which is a huge portion of the game for a lot of players.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It completely breaks the market dynamic, which is a huge portion of the game for a lot of players.

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Right now alot of prices are higher then ever, stuff is moving more regularly so as someone that crafts alot I have no complaints.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

while ostensibly true, many games offer a free option for a lot of things that can be purchased out of the cash shop. Making it a time saved vs money saved choice for the player.

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Yes but those games are typically in my experience F2P games (or at least non sub based). This is how they fill up their player base by getting both people willing to pay for content and those not willing to pay in the same game. It's basically a marketing tactic to get people to play their game. Where as FFXIV doesn't have to do this because you are already here paying to play their game. Your motivation for playing isn't trying to find a free game to play. So they don't need to offer multiple options to this content they have decided is optional.

If SE offered it through in game means they would lose out on a percentage of potential cash shop customers who are equally willing to grind it out in game. F2P games accept this loss in potential income to up numbers of total players even more since the larger the player base the more likely cash shop players will continue to play. SE doesn't need to do this.

Btw this is just me attempting to look through the eyes of a company on the subject and not my personal opinion on whether or not I agree with a cash shop in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

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No.
Let's say person A bought a wedding bracelet and wants to sell it, because he wants to make some gil. Person B gives him whatever amount of gil that person B already has. This amount of gil didn't just suddenly appear out of thin air, it is simply changing hands.
Now let's say that person A crafted an expensive glowy primal weapon and wants to sell it, again because he wants to make some gil. Person B buys his weapon, and once again there is no amount of gil being added to the economy out of nowhere. It's the same scenario except for the fact that in the first example, person A is selling what is basically an ingame service. Neither of these things can be resold after being used, so person B won't be able to "get them for free" as he obviously can't resell them to another person after using them.
So tell me, how does this break the market dynamic any more than the ingame items that are already being sold on the market ?

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Originally Posted by ZanaAmariyo

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It's demand for items with real world value, a currency that doesn't even exist within the game. That breaks the game's market. What makes them valuable is nowhere to be found in the game.

EDIT: Rather, I should say a currency that didn't (or wasn't supposed to; there was already RMT) exist within the game. It does now. This is a complete change to the market, ignoring RMT activity.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It completely breaks the market dynamic, which is a huge portion of the game for a lot of players.

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Actually, it ties the in-game currency to a real world currency, which, like a gold standard, actually strengthens the market dynamic. it can lead to deflation, making what gil SE gives us worth more.

Times where the economy has been tied to the gold standard have been some of the most stable periods in history. maybe this will stabilize the in game markets as well.

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Originally Posted by greekgeek

I don't see what the big deal is either, gil isn't gonna get you anything that will break the game. Maybe help people finish of novus or something but nothing game breaking.

Shoot i bought 2 for 6mil gil. I had lots and I rather do that then spend 40 dollars for me and my girlfriend.

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People can buy fcob wins and gear.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

Actually, it ties the in-game currency to a real world currency, which, like a gold standard, actually strengthens the market dynamic. it can lead to deflation, making what gil SE gives us worth more.

Times where the economy has been tied to the gold standard have been some of the most stable periods in history. maybe this will stabilize the in game markets as well.

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Which is why many countries' currencies are still tied to the gold standar ... oh wait.

Ezorea is a separate world, we play it because it's a separate world.

What next? You got to send $€ a video of you benching 400lbs to be a good WAR?

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Originally Posted by Tsukotaku

Still, we need an official stance from the GMs or the Devs. We don't know for sure what they will think about this. Just after 5 minutes of PF I got around 10 messages on the line of "Me and my FC will report you for RMT", "You're going to get banned for RMT", Ecc...

Edit: I'm trying to get contact with one of the active GMs on Ragnarok, if I get something out of this topic I will bring it here.

Edit #2: Support confirms that it's NOT a violation of the TOS.

http://i.imgur.com/uhvD11O.jpg

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The GM clearly says TRADING, there is nothing about selling it for gils.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Therefore we would like players to stop selling and trading the bracelets for gil so that they can continue to be used for their intended purpose.

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Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Asking RMTs to stop! That always works! That's why the team hasn't had to ban a single 'bot this month!

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Originally Posted by Meier

People can buy fcob wins and gear.

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The people who already had the gil before can spend the money the exact same way as the person who trades a bracelet for that same gil.

Or, like me, can take their gil and remove it from circulation by buying a house with it. Which is my plan, and takes gil off of the market that was just going to either 1) trade hands between players, or 2) sit on someone's retainer until they had something to spend it on. Sheesh.

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Originally Posted by Dotsusama

The people who already had the gil before can spend the money the exact same way as the person who trades a bracelet for that same gil.

Or, like me, can take their gil and remove it from circulation by buying a house with it. Which is my plan, and takes gil off of the market that was just going to either 1) trade hands between players, or 2) sit on someone's retainer until they had something to spend it on. Sheesh.

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While your statement is true, it does nothing to disprove pay to win.

On Sargatanas I have yet to see anyone buying or selling a bracelet in the PF. Ask anyone on Sargatanas they will tell you the same thing. I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion the actual amount of people trying to make gil by selling bracelets.

I check PF a lot never seen anyone selling one. Personally I would love to pay gil for a wedding and not real money but it doesn't happen on my server.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

On Sargatanas I have yet to see anyone buying or selling a bracelet in the PF. Ask anyone on Sargatanas they will tell you the same thing. I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion the actual amount of people trying to make gil by selling bracelets.

I check PF a lot never seen anyone selling one. Personally I would love to pay gil for a wedding and not real money but it doesn't happen on my server.

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It's normal. These cash-shop haters/subscription-entitlement players making a non-issue into an exaggerated issue. It is as though the game is dying and they're trying their best to resuscitate it. It's laughable because the game is very much alive and kicking. All the multiple cash-shop hate threads are just a waste of space and without a doubt, pointless.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Which is why many countries' currencies are still tied to the gold standar ... oh wait.

Ezorea is a separate world, we play it because it's a separate world.

What next? You got to send $€ a video of you benching 400lbs to be a good WAR?

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I actually play it because its fun. I'm not sure why you do though.

and the reasoning why current countries are not tied to the gold standard is because the rise of debt in world economies has led to countries having to print money to cover their own costs. this inflated money, and the elimination of the gold standard allowed for countries to print more money without requiring it be backed by anything.

bad politics aside, SE doesnt have in game dbts, so a gold standard can work in game. EVE online does it, and has one of the strongest economies of any game out there. We arent the size or quality of EVE, as FFXIV is an inferior game in terms of economic quality and server density, however the method still applies.

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Originally Posted by tocsin

I actually play it because its fun. I'm not sure why you do though.

and the reasoning why current countries are not tied to the gold standard is because the rise of debt in world economies has led to countries having to print money to cover their own costs. this inflated money, and the elimination of the gold standard allowed for countries to print more money without requiring it be backed by anything.

bad politics aside, SE doesnt have in game dbts, so a gold standard can work in game. EVE online does it, and has one of the strongest economies of any game out there. We arent the size or quality of EVE, as FFXIV is an inferior game in terms of economic quality and server density, however the method still applies.

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I play it for fun too.

But what fun is there if the playing field isn't somewhat level. Do you think a scrawny 14 year old who is just learning the ropes will have fun fighting against Mike Tyson in his prime?

RL rich people will be the Mike Tysons of this game's economy.

You also forgot to mention gold backed money isn't 100% stable either, discovery of gold deposits will upset the value.

Technically all money is fiat money, even gold ... which is way over valued given it's utility to man. Money has no intrinsic value. Money is just a promise to pay in goods and services. The US dollar is backed by the capacity of the USA to produce goods and services of value.

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Originally Posted by chrillix

I believe this is the first step down a terribly slippery slope that pushes this game into full blown P2W.

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The first step was the original introduction of the extra retainers or the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by BigPapaSmurf

The REAL ISSUE with this is it is HORRIBLY INEQUITABLE TO PLAYERS.

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That issue arose with the extra retainers and cash shop in the first place. Were you one of the ones speaking up against it? This is a mmoRPg, and not all of us play to try and be the best, some of us just enjoy the novelty and the characterization. Not being able to access vanity gear, which is the largest factor for my enjoyment, due to limited funds was already unfair to myself and others like me. This update has just given people who enjoy the aesthetics of the game a chance to obtain things they otherwise could not, and that sounds to me to be very similar to what you're describing so emphatically.