AOE Toggle Needs to GO

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Originally Posted by Joeking

What J word?

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Sorry for the late response, but J Word = Jumping

Bah, The aoe toggle is good. Now my experiance with dom's is limited to r30 thm. but the aoe toggle is really handy.

Moving the widget from only showing up while casting to a top level, on screen one would be optimal. the toggle is already available at the top level with the /aoe command. that way you could just hit z or how ever its mapped to the controller and that's that.

I Really fail to understand the logic of lets avoid the toggle and get to casting quicker by adding More spells and action bars. the end result would be the same or even more user actions to reach the same result.

Now could aoe mode come at the cost of a slight bump to mp cost, casting time, or per target efficiency? Yea it probably could. Might even add a layer of tactics on top of battle.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

If you need 3 steps to cast a spell, that's not fine

because in other MMOs they only need 1 button

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And if you're not incompetent these 3 steps can be done in one to two seconds!

If this system were streamlined anymore then everyone would just bitch about the fact that it's too easy to cast spells.

Masochism at its finest.

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Originally Posted by Griss

Bah, The aoe toggle is good. Now my experiance with dom's is limited to r30 thm. but the aoe toggle is really handy.

Moving the widget from only showing up while casting to a top level, on screen one would be optimal. the toggle is already available at the top level with the /aoe command. that way you could just hit z or how ever its mapped to the controller and that's that.

I Really fail to understand the logic of lets avoid the toggle and get to casting quicker by adding More spells and action bars. the end result would be the same or even more user actions to reach the same result.

Now could aoe mode come at the cost of a slight bump to mp cost, casting time, or per target efficiency? Yea it probably could. Might even add a layer of tactics on top of battle.

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I agree entirely.

I would have no problem with hate/MP cost/casting time all being increased by use of AoE, but that has NOTHING to do with the toggle itself, and having additional AoE spells is not necessary for these adjustments to be made.

Intuitive controls do not need to be sacrificed to make the game/classes challenging.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

First of all I don't care about how controllers function, I imagine alot of players that want improved KB/M support are the same way. Outside of controllers there isn't much need for target locking in the first place.

The issue that alot don't understand is that it's not intuitive or optimal to ever need to take your hand off the mouse to cast a spell let alone anything else. It's called Keyboard and Mouse for a reason. Trying clicking on your target to confirm a target to see how much of a pain in the rear it is.

Blizzard doesn't want the interface getting in the way of actually playing the game, something alot of developers downright fail at. I miss my 3 stack of bars with all of the buttons having ctrl/alt/shift bindings rather than clunky page switching. Every ability I could want 1 button press away.

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QFT.

Being a raid healer in WoW is, sadly, way more complicated than any of the trivial party play in this game, and getting a heal off takes two actions (select target, and one button push for the spell) and all of 1 second total. It's this way in Aion, and Warhammer, and most likely Rift (though I haven't played it) and any number of other MMOs you can name, I'm sure.

The setup in FFXIV is horribly inefficient. And to be quite honest, I don't care about catering to controller users at this point. It is the PC market that will make or break an MMO. And because SE ignored the keyboard and mouse players, this contributed to the reason it's on life support.

Sorry to sound so frustrated, but I'm tired of my gameplay being affected by controller limitations. >.<

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

There really should be two separate UIs.

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I couldn't agree more. This one-size-fits-all crap is just making both sides unhappy.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

If you need 3 steps to cast a spell, that's not fine

because in other MMOs they only need 1 button

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^ This.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

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Originally Posted by Evangela

If you need 3 steps to cast a spell, that's not fine

because in other MMOs they only need 1 button

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^ This.

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I can agree with everything but this...

Select target, press spell macro.

Did I miss something?

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Originally Posted by normalforce

I can agree with everything but this...

Select target, press spell macro.

Did I miss something?

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Yes, you're missing the fact that you had to set up a macro ahead of time to get the game to do something it should just do correctly. Otherwise, what's the point of having an action bar?

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Yes, you're missing the fact that you had to set up a macro ahead of time to get the game to do something it should just do correctly. Otherwise, what's the point of having an action bar?

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So, the argument against macros is one made out of laziness?

I like the AoE toggle, it's useful to me. So, I believe the game is working correctly as is.

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Originally Posted by normalforce

So, the argument against macros is one made out of laziness?

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It's not laziness, it's pick-up-and-play quality, which SE has never understood. One reason this game got bad reviews was clunky UI.

The dev team has been addressing the UI and unnecessary confirmations with the synthesis process. We can all agree that was full of redundancies. This is the same concept. Work smarter, not harder.

Can we all agree that we want a world full of people to play with? New players do not feel it's acceptable to be required to write books of macros to be able to perform simple functions. A lot of us only put up with it because it's just what we had to do in FFXI. But if you can stand back and look at it objectively, you can see that it's archaic and due to bad UI design.

Many people won't get that far. They'll laugh and say 'eff this'. Most people already did.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

It's not laziness, it's pick-up-and-play quality, which SE has never understood. One reason this game got bad reviews was clunky UI.

The dev team has been addressing the UI and unnecessary confirmations with the synthesis process. We can all agree that was full of redundancies. This is the same concept. Work smarter, not harder.

Can we all agree that we want a world full of people to play with? New players do not feel it's acceptable to be required to write books of macros to be able to perform simple functions. A lot of us only put up with it because it's just what we had to do in FFXI. But I can stand back and see that it's archaic and due to bad UI design.

Many people won't get that far. They'll laugh and say 'eff this'. Most people already did.

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I still don't see how pressing a button to toggle AoE is anymore redundant than having two spells that do the same exact thing. The only difference between the two is that you're pressing enter before your spell goes off, and one extra button if you're toggling AoE on and off. It takes me less than a second to do all of this. Unless you're playing with your keyboard upside down I don't see how this is an issue.

A bigger issue would be re-balancing spells, and the entire action bar to accommodate the fact that we're going to have two different versions of EVERY SINGLE one of our spells, just to save you two extra button presses. This isn't even taking into consideration the fact that if the bar were changed, all of the other classes would have to go through re-balancing, due to the extra skill space.

If there's a better way to do toggle, or an option to bind it to a certain key, I'm a-okay with that. Completely removing it however is a step backwards.

It also bears mentioning that you don't have to select AoE on or off each time you cast. If you're nuking for an NM that doesn't have a group, leave it off and never touch it. If you're only healing then you probably just want to leave it on.

It's not 1 step in every other MMO, it's at least 2 which means FFXIV only has the added (occasional) extra button press.

Select target, use skill.

Select skill, toggle AoE, confirm target.

One step that is a whole single button press. Again this community continues to disgust me with the constant whining over a single button press.

Could it be explained better? Of course. Could they make the keybind re-mappable? Of course. Could they fiddle with hate/MP cost for AoE? You bet they could! But are those what this topic is about? Absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

Sorry for the late response, but J Word = Jumping

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Aww.. Thought it was something else more exciting...

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Originally Posted by Arcell

It also bears mentioning that you don't have to select AoE on or off each time you cast. If you're nuking for an NM that doesn't have a group, leave it off and never touch it. If you're only healing then you probably just want to leave it on.

It's not 1 step in every other MMO, it's at least 2 which means FFXIV only has the added (occasional) extra button press.

Select target, use skill.

Select skill, toggle AoE, confirm target.

One step that is a whole single button press. Again this community continues to disgust me with the constant whining over a single button press.

Could it be explained better? Of course. Could they make the keybind re-mappable? Of course. Could they fiddle with hate/MP cost for AoE? You bet they could! But are those what this topic is about? Absolutely not.

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People get it in their heads that a) if something is inconvenient for THEM, or b) if they suck at doing something, then it's the game's fault.

Sorry, but it sounds to me like a lot of the people complaining about this subject (and not the subject of MP/Hate balancing on AoE) simply suck at their job. They're not paying attention to the toggle, and are using AoE unintentionally. If you're doing this all the time, sorry, but YOU'RE doing it wrong.

I have seen no real valid argument for why the AoE toggle itself is inferior to having separate spells, but several people have pointed out a dozen reasons for why separate AoE spells would be cumbersome, and a step backwards.

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

If there's a better way to do toggle, or an option to bind it to a certain key, I'm a-okay with that. Completely removing it however is a step backwards.

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toggle is already bound to a key. select the spell and press z only if you need to change. that is easier than searching through twice the amount of spells.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

no as long as this game is on easy mode there will never be room for a dedicated healer in a high level party. most people in the higer groups would just prefer to add another mage hybrid that can do multiple things instead of wasting space with one. get over the fact that the game is easy and this system is easy, but you can't figure out how to use it.

as far as the hitting enter anytime you cast a spell you will have to hit a button whether it is the 1 key or enter button so it is the same amount of key presses. sub targets are necessary if you want to actually be a good mage. you need to have the mob targeted to do your job and see what status effects it has on it so you know what you need to do on it.



no the system is fine. it is the quality of some of the people that cannot figure out the system and do their jobs that is the issue. i've been sitting here reading all day of how people cannot do their job and aoe mobs when they meant to single hit them. that is because they messed up not because the system messed up. if it were you select aoe off and it casts on or if you used subtarget and it hit something else that would be an issue with the system. to say you meant single but forgot you had aoe on is user error not the game design.

can you explain how you plan to hit the number corresponding to a spell on a game that is being built for a controller? remember this game is being built with the ps3 core audience as it's main target. it may be a good idea to go out and spend 10$ to get a usb controller as it is much much easier to use than the keyboard and mouse. they are not going to change the system that will make things more inconvenient on the ps3 players. they are the only thing that will keep this game going so everything is being put into making it a success.

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touche, you got me there. it is being made for a console as its main audience, its also targeting crafters and fielders as a large part of its audience.
unfortunately using a controller for an MMORPG is less efficient since i constantly have to press left, right, up and down as if im going through menues.
well im sorry but menues are out of date and a massive turn off, which is why having a thousand keys at the tips of your fingers is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

toggle is already bound to a key. select the spell and press z only if you need to change. that is easier than searching through twice the amount of spells.

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Oh, I'm aware of this. I use z all of the time to toggle, which is why this system makes perfect sense to me.

I'm just saying that if we had the option to bind it to other keys that it would eliminate one of the drawbacks that all of the whiners in this thread are complaining about. For whatever reason some people seem to think that it's difficult to press z when they're casting.

Trust me, I'm arguing FOR toggle. I feel like it's one of the major things that SE got right with this game vs. every other MMO ever.

It has hardly any risk and does not encourage more thoughtful play.


(unless renewing basic mundane buffs on a party is to be considered an action requiring of daring strategy......)

Way to start a duplicate thread in a different area..

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ove-AOE-Toggle

this one may have more replies now.... but still

I think one of the problems is that with FFXI they took their standard FF UI which was made for consoles and made it work with a FF MMO. For the most part that worked pretty well for me and with the combo of macro's too I could get to anything I needed quickly.

In FFXIV though they have done it the other way around and have taken a MMO UI and tried to make it work on consoles. While it does work I don't think it flows as nicely with a controller as the traditional FF system does.

^ Definitely... and RPGs definitely play a bit more differently on a console than on a PC (from my experience). I think that on a PC the gameplay innately takes on a more 'tactical' feel, while on a console the same game may feel more like an 'action game', simply because of how each platform's respective input devices are organized.

I think that if they really hammered out the gameplay in a way that made it feel somewhat like an action game on a PC, it would achieve a nice medium across both platform genres. Unless you actually go out and buy a keyboard and mouse for your respective console, it is really difficult to replicate how a keyboard plays (except with shooters, which rely heavily on mouse/joystick movement).

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Originally Posted by Verecund

^ Definitely... and RPGs definitely play a bit more differently on a console than on a PC (from my experience). I think that on a PC the gameplay innately takes on a more 'tactical' feel, while on a console the same game may feel more like an 'action game', simply because of how each platform's respective input devices are organized.

I think that if they really hammered out the gameplay in a way that made it feel somewhat like an action game on a PC, it would achieve a nice medium across both platform genres. Unless you actually go out and buy a keyboard and mouse for your respective console, it is really difficult to replicate how a keyboard plays (except with shooters, which rely heavily on mouse/joystick movement).

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But isn't that a personal stigma you placed via personal view and experience? The controller is home to more action based games then tactical games. And the tactical games on consoles historically come in two fashions have a action fast pace with integrated tactical element or turn based menu oriented. But you may have a point on making an action game for pc but if the complaints of DCUO about UI or imposed limitations are an indication of how it will be received I wouldn't consider a transition but a ground up build.

Current system
Choose skill > press Z to toggle > Enter to fire

What I think it should be
Press Z to toggle at ANY time. Have an icon similar to the red BR orb (green orb?) on the action bar. You can toggle with mouse in the same way that you toggle the BR orb with mouse.
Choose skill > Enter to fire

This gave me another idea. Have aoe toggles separate for each bar 1-3 , so that all skills on that bar become aoe/non aoe. (And have some setting to lock those aoe toggles into place in the menu if you want to)

But getting rid of it? No thanks.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before. Can't read so many pages.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

AOE Toggle needs to be removed. Terrible terrible terrible concept.

Is this being addressed in the battle update?

SE needs to make individual AOE spells or somehow remake the AOE mechanics. The toggle is too much of a hassle to deal with, especially when aggro'd groups don't even yield SP until they turn red.

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I think your real frustration is with that, not the aoe toggle. There is definitely something wrong with always explaining why not to use shock spikes sometimes , but thats off topic.





The post below me just cancelled out everything?

I confirmed with the dev. team that in the future they are planning to remove the AoE magic toggle.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I confirmed with the dev. team that in the future they are planning to remove the AoE magic toggle.

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Awsome! Thank you Bayohne

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I confirmed with the dev. team that in the future they are planning to remove the AoE magic toggle.

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YESSSSSSS!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I confirmed with the dev. team that in the future they are planning to remove the AoE magic toggle.

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That's disappointing. Does this mean that they are removing the big button, or removing toggling all together?

I think that there could be ways to make the system more streamlined, but I like being able to toggle with a button over having a cluttered skill list (assuming you guys are going with the OP's proposal to add AoE specific spells).

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

I confirmed with the dev. team that in the future they are planning to remove the AoE magic toggle.

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Well if we are getting an "-aga" version of every spell, I hope we are going to get an appropriate amount of action points to set spells and abilities, more rows on our action bars and a lot more macros!

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Originally Posted by Shika

Well if we are getting an "-aga" version of every spell, I hope we are going to get an appropriate amount of action points to set spells and abilities, more rows on our action bars and a lot more macros!

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And I hope they're ready to re-balance very single class and skill in the game if this is their "fix".

Pretty sure that they can come up with a better solution than bogging down our skill lists/action bars, though.

Well this is an interesting development.

This opens up the possiblity of Disciples Of War being able to cast AoE spells in the near future. Not sure how that's going to fly.

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Originally Posted by Shika

Well if we are getting an "-aga" version of every spell, I hope we are going to get an appropriate amount of action points to set spells and abilities, more rows on our action bars and a lot more macros!

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That would cause balancing issues.

Perhaps and extra (optional) key press during the targeting? Kind of like now, but not sticky. And since you always have to explicitly hit it, you're not likely to accidenlty AOE things.

This will be interested to see in game, I'm so used to it now, but I am hoping we do have AOE versions of spells.

Did not read the whole thread.

I think what they were trying to do was make it old school Final Fantasy style, where pushing right (or the R button) would target all enemies, while pushing left (or the left shoulder button) would target all allies.

In a 3D rendered environment, that doesn't always work, so they decided to do a single button to switch between the two.

Perhaps if they included an option to tell it to default to AoE on or off, rather than forcing you to switch back and forth. Know what I'm sayin'?

EDIT: Yeah, the post right above mine says about the same thing. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Tsuga

And I hope they're ready to re-balance very single class and skill in the game if this is their "fix".

Pretty sure that they can come up with a better solution than bogging down our skill lists/action bars, though.

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Re-balancing in this case means an -aga version of spells without the AoE toggle there, 'bout it.

As far as I'm concerned SE, bog that shit down with every -aga spell you can find...

Also, yes, it could be that other toggle option which is to cycle to an "all targets" option.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

AOE Toggle needs to be removed. Terrible terrible terrible concept.

Is this being addressed in the battle update?

SE needs to make individual AOE spells or somehow remake the AOE mechanics. The toggle is too much of a hassle to deal with, especially when aggro'd groups don't even yield SP until they turn red.

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I kinda agree with OP, and yet i do kind like the current system.
Sometimes you just wish some spells were auto-matic AoE, such as mainly the Buff spells should always be active AoE spells.
Since the dont seem to enrage any hate atm anyway.

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Originally Posted by Calandra

That would cause balancing issues.

Perhaps and extra (optional) key press during the targeting? Kind of like now, but not sticky. And since you always have to explicitly hit it, you're not likely to accidenlty AOE things.

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By giving mages only AoE version of spells does not really cause balancing issues that I can see? If they are removing the toggle, which people were complaining about as another step in casting a spell, then another "optional" key press during targeting is just putting us back to square one. I use macro's pretty much exclusively on my mages so I don't accidently AoE things- with no toggle I want to know that they are going to give us more macro functionality and action points to set appropriate AoE version of spells that will be required.

The only balancing issue I see is perhaps the emnity generation for AoE versions (which should of course be higher than non AoE), but they are overhauling the algorithms for hate as part of the job and battle system reworking anyway.

I would just make it so you press extra key while targeting like in regular FF RPG style, highlight one mob for single target, and do like circle area, or mobs in range to highlight for AOE.

I don't agree with this at all. Every mage would end up with half the number of spells on their action bar, and that would be wicked lame.

Either learn to use macros or deal with the extra button press, it's not hard. The 'z' key works well.

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Originally Posted by Shika

Well if we are getting an "-aga" version of every spell, I hope we are going to get an appropriate amount of action points to set spells and abilities, more rows on our action bars and a lot more macros!

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Chances are they will have it so when you set the normal spell the -aga is free to place or vice-versa with only one version of the spell costing points.

I haven't posted in some time, bidding my time. I can tell my time is now:

WHAT THE FLYING F--!!?

Was hitting ONE button that mindblowingly taxating? No, REALLY, haven't played since New Year's and I remember it was a shoulder button, R1 or something. I can't WAIT to feel the motherhumping rush of nostalgia as I run through Icons and Icons because now I need to pass AoE's too! Because that is SO Final Fantasy!

How is that sad argument about "But then I could use White Wind for less healing power, makes it more tactical, more difficult!" even valid? You people don't even look for a fix before scrapping anything! Can't the toggle simply weaken magic potency AND extend casting? You know, how many skills normally made it go? Or just limit give this new balanced toggle to specific, evaluated magics, rather than all of them? Same effect and it's improving rather than going backwards because you are afraid of change.

And don't anyone dare tell me it's "Too much algorithm adjustment" for just a toggle, because I can't see how in a burning moogle's pompom this could ever be impossible, it already makes magic AoE, which was normally tied to a skill! Multiply potency, multiply cast speed, VOALA!

I like that Bayohne's doing his job, but I am not pleased at all with the message-- I can't tell if I am supposed to "like" or not.

Welp, back into the shadows.

I'm just curious what they're going to replace the toggle with. Probably would have been good to come with that info too, as this doesn't give us much. I mean I've got faith that the dev team wouldn't just remove it without a good plan, I just can't think of what that is.

And the clusterf*ck of spells begins.