Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

Because there is nothing particularly engaging about it, you spend most of your time DPSing with the singular spell you have for it without ever really working towards something. DPS and even tanks I believe have some kind of burst phase that you are using your rotation to build towards, even if it's all on a 2 minute timer now. As a healer you have none of this, just DPS spam while using your oGCD kit to heal whatever there is.

---

That’s true but then what’s the reason for why we had that, then it got removed, we saw that the healer population collapsed then square decided to double and triple down with that design

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s true but then what’s the reason for why we had that, then it got removed, we saw that the healer population collapsed then square decided to double and triple down with that design

---

it got removed because of the tasks that a healer has to deal with. While fights do have a flow to them at end game, the one thing people can't control is the people they are partied with and this aspect hits healers the hardest, with having to hit the floor rezzing someone before a mechanic goes off, then potentially having to fully heal the group afterwards. Albeit, with the eight man jump rope we got now maybe it matters less but I still see a lot of panic rezzing happening in PF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colt47

it got removed because of the tasks that a healer has to deal with. While fights do have a flow to them at end game, the one thing people can't control is the people they are partied with and this aspect hits healers the hardest, with having to hit the floor rezzing someone before a mechanic goes off, then potentially having to fully heal the group afterwards. Albeit, with the eight man jump rope we got now maybe it matters less but I still see a lot of panic rezzing happening in PF.

---

I fail to see how that’s really relevant, DPS wipe the raid all the time because they “forgot” to press addle (ie were in their burst phase and couldn’t be bothered to press it) why should healers be the only ones punished with a crap rotation because certain people don’t want to press their buttons

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colt47

it got removed because of the tasks that a healer has to deal with. While fights do have a flow to them at end game, the one thing people can't control is the people they are partied with and this aspect hits healers the hardest, with having to hit the floor rezzing someone before a mechanic goes off, then potentially having to fully heal the group afterwards. Albeit, with the eight man jump rope we got now maybe it matters less but I still see a lot of panic rezzing happening in PF.

---

I don't understand this "healer pressure" argument. DPS and Tanks still have to continue doing their job, press the same amount of buttons, and stay alive. DPS and Tanks are also expected to upkeep a more complicated rotation while using their mits and heals. Some DPS are also expected to raise in sketchy situations. DPS and Tanks can also be matched with bad healers who constantly hit the floor and need to be scraped up. Why then are healers singled out for babying?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colt47

it got removed because of the tasks that a healer has to deal with. While fights do have a flow to them at end game, the one thing people can't control is the people they are partied with and this aspect hits healers the hardest, with having to hit the floor rezzing someone before a mechanic goes off, then potentially having to fully heal the group afterwards. Albeit, with the eight man jump rope we got now maybe it matters less but I still see a lot of panic rezzing happening in PF.

---

The problem is that CBU3 has decided that "difficulty" is nothing more than body checks. You fail, you die.

You can't fix stupid, you can only raise it and then those people do 25/50% less damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s true but then what’s the reason for why we had that, then it got removed, we saw that the healer population collapsed then square decided to double and triple down with that design

---

Some things I was perfectly happy to see go, such as cleric stance, while others like Shadow Flare I really wish would make a return. It seems they are of the mind that healers are spending all of their time and energy figuring out how to heal party members while the reality is we have way too many tools to do so without enough reason to use them, and so much down time which can only be spent using your very few DPS options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsumdere

I don't understand this "healer pressure" argument. DPS and Tanks still have to continue doing their job, press the same amount of buttons, and stay alive. DPS and Tanks are also expected to upkeep a more complicated rotation while using their mits and heals. Some DPS are also expected to raise in sketchy situations. DPS and Tanks can also be matched with bad healers who constantly hit the floor and need to be scraped up. Why then are healers singled out for babying?

---

I'm not even saying it does make sense. The one designing the jobs can choose how someone stores up energy or whatever for a burst type of window. This is just a guess since healers that are generally newer to the task tend to have trouble managing cast times, which is one of the features of both caster dps and healers.

The question becomes how are the healer designers so disconnected from the game they can’t see what’s happening, this isn’t a “OHMYGOD WE NEED TO BUFF GNB BECAUSE IT DOES 4 LESS RDPS THAN DRK IN THIS ONE SPECIFIC FIGHT” kinda discussion this is something that can be seen by anyone on any role in any content

The healers simply have too many heals, too much MP and nothing to do with them, you don’t need to be a healer main to see what’s wrong with healers, especially when these heals have become less and less relevant recently because the game is getting filled to the brim with body checks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The question becomes how are the healer designers so disconnected from the game they can’t see what’s happening, this isn’t a “OHMYGOD WE NEED TO BUFF GNB BECAUSE IT DOES 4 LESS RDPS THAN DRK IN THIS ONE SPECIFIC FIGHT” kinda discussion this is something that can be seen by anyone on any role in any content

The healers simply have too many heals, too much MP and nothing to do with them, you don’t need to be a healer main to see what’s wrong with healers, especially when these heals have become less and less relevant recently because the game is getting filled to the brim with body checks

---

There are still a number of players who think healing is fine and play them regularly in content, and even players who still struggle with healing and keeping party members alive. It appears that the dev team is looking at the people who might still have some trouble keeping people alive in regular content and adjusting the role to accommodate them, and honestly it's not like the community is going to reach out to these struggling healers and kindly show them better ways to play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

There are still a number of players who think healing is fine and play them regularly in content, and even players who still struggle with healing and keeping party members alive. It appears that the dev team is looking at the people who might still have some trouble keeping people alive in regular content and adjusting the role to accommodate them, and honestly it's not like the community is going to reach out to these struggling healers and kindly show them better ways to play.

---

I'm pretty sure that people would probably be more willing to teach struggling healers if it mattered in the slightest. If your healer dies at 90% boss HP in a dungeon? The tank can solo that. If your healer plays badly in full party content? The other healer can soloheal. There's just no reason to teach healers who play badly and risk getting told off or reported.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I'm pretty sure that people would probably be more willing to teach struggling healers if it mattered in the slightest. If your healer dies at 90% boss HP in a dungeon? The tank can solo that. If your healer plays badly in full party content? The other healer can soloheal. There's just no reason to teach healers who play badly and risk getting told off or reported.

---

It's been my experience that when people say they "offered friendly advice" what they actually did was insult the player then told them to unsub or go watch a guide. Then they wonder why they got reported.

Exactly, if I’m running a WAR and my healer dies why do I care in the slightest, they are just a worse caster in my eyes, if we are in 8 man and the other healer is remotely competent half the time its better to leave them on the floor

Regardless the game is so easy at the casual level you can get by literally with the mantra of “I see cast bar I press medica 2” and this has always been possible, I don’t know how much more you can gut the experience of the role to cater to people who can’t even get as far as realising that the above mindset works in 99.9% of casual content

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

It's been my experience that when people say they "offered friendly advice" what they actually did was insult the player then told them to unsub or go watch a guide. Then they wonder why they got reported.

---

I don't need to rely on anecdotes, I've seen friendly advice get turned down with vitriol. It does happen, whether you believe it or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't need to rely on anecdotes, I've seen friendly advice get turned down with vitriol. It does happen, whether you believe it or not.

---

But that's an anecdote, the only difference is that it is your own experience as opposed to mine. I have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me.

Curious how many people say the game is unengaging or too easy but are also using a 3rd party app to tell them what to do, Ultimates included.

Warrior should be nerfed in 7.0 and I'll be surprised if it isn't. It's got no business being the All-in-one Class with competent DPS, decent Tanking, and busted burst healing on command that makes Healing classes doubt their own existence.

Regardless of whether the average advice given and the reply is in good faith or not it doesn’t change aravell’s point that right now healers are so useless in content they are required for that half the time it’s not even worth bothering to try to correct bad play on the healers part

I lean more towards the side that vitriol on both ends is overstated but ignoring advice is extremely common which is why I rarely bother to give it, especially when even if the healer takes my advice it rarely does much because again healers are completely useless

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensui

Curious how many people say the game is unengaging or too easy but are also using a 3rd party app to tell them what to do, Ultimates included.

---

I don’t need Cactbot to tell me not to press medica 2 on every mechanic and stay out of the orange, the game isn’t that hard

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Regardless of whether the average advice given and the reply is in good faith or not it doesn’t change aravell’s point that right now healers are so useless in content they are required for that half the time it’s not even worth bothering to try to correct bad play on the healers part

I lean more towards the side that vitriol on both ends is overstated but ignoring advice is extremely common which is why I rarely bother to give it, especially when even if the healer takes my advice it rarely does much because again healers are completely useless

---

DPS can also play incredibly poorly and in the end aren't needed to complete most things, it just takes quite a bit longer without them but they are hardly called useless. The point here being that most of the times healers do facilitate faster and more consistent clears of things and shouldn't be considered dead weight because it really gives the devs more excuses not to bother with them. Why care about improving healers if people are just going to run content without them anyway and don't care to worry how they play?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

DPS can also play incredibly poorly and in the end aren't needed to complete most things, it just takes quite a bit longer without them but they are hardly called useless. The point here being that most of the times healers do facilitate faster and more consistent clears of things and shouldn't be considered dead weight because it really gives the devs more excuses not to bother with them. Why care about improving healers if people are just going to run content without them anyway and don't care to worry how they play?

---

On the flip side isn’t the fact that healers are just there and people would run without them if the game allowed it indicative that healers are a mess and should be fixed

You don’t need a healer in 4 man content, 8 and 24 man only need 1 healer and even that one healer has far more tools than they need, why is it okay a role is being this neglected

Maybe the real problem aren't the jobs but the script of the fights. I would rather more random mechanics where you have to read, react and recover, over doing a game of memory

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

On the flip side isn’t the fact that healers are just there and people would run without them if the game allowed it indicative that healers are a mess and should be fixed

You don’t need a healer in 4 man content, 8 and 24 man only need 1 healer and even that one healer has far more tools than they need, why is it okay a role is being this neglected

---

Again the argument is also made that you don't need DPS either, it just takes longer without them. People only attempt and are successful with non-healer runs because it can be much faster as long as everyone is at peak performance, it's hardly consistent enough to do so regularly with random groups of people put together through something like the duty finder. The healer role certainly does need something to improve it's play, and simply adding more DPS options to the role isn't going to change anything about the fact that these things can be done without a healer. In order to change that encounter design itself has to be changed a great deal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensui

Maybe the real problem aren't the jobs but the script of the fights. I would rather more random mechanics where you have to read, react and recover, over doing a game of memory

---

ShB had plenty of that (basically the entire first half of E12S; widely regarded as one of the best savages we have ever gotten; it had no debuff vomit, it was just see the mechanic then react to said mechanic) and healers were still in the toilet in ShB

Party members being hit by random autos at random times if that’s what you mean won’t really work with how slow and unresponsive 14 is

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

Again the argument is also made that you don't need DPS either, it just takes longer without them. People only attempt and are successful with non-healer runs because it can be much faster as long as everyone is at peak performance, it's hardly consistent enough to do so regularly with random groups of people put together through something like the duty finder. The healer role certainly does need something to improve it's play, and simply adding more DPS options to the role isn't going to change anything about the fact that these things can be done without a healer. In order to change that encounter design itself has to be changed a great deal.

---

Yes but the point I’m making is people want to play the DPS classes so there isn’t a problem, people don’t want to play healers so there is a problem

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

But that's an anecdote, the only difference is that it is your own experience as opposed to mine. I have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me.

---

I'm not asking you to believe me? You made a statement and I made a counter-point, that's it.

Regardless, this is derailing from my original point. Which is that healers are so vestigial to combat at this point that it's not worth risking getting vitriol thrown in your face for giving advice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensui

Curious how many people say the game is unengaging or too easy but are also using a 3rd party app to tell them what to do, Ultimates included.

---

It's so easy to dismiss arguments with "You're probably using 3rd party tools", right? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yes but the point I’m making is people want to play the DPS classes so there isn’t a problem, people don’t want to play healers so there is a problem

---

Never played a MMO where that's not a thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensui

Never played a MMO where that's not a thing.

---

I’ve certainly played MMO’s that have a better healer to DPS ratio than what 14 has and also has a better satisfaction rating of people who do play healers

14 is failing on both fronts

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

It's so easy to dismiss arguments with "You're probably using 3rd party tools", right? :)

---

Not dismissing, just curious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’ve certainly played MMO’s that have a better healer to DPS ratio than what 14 has and also has a better satisfaction rating of people who do play healers

14 is failing on both fronts

---

You want healers that can tank, be top dps and heal everything with an aura of awesome. I get it. But roles also have roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

ShB had plenty of that (basically the entire first half of E12S; widely regarded as one of the best savages we have ever gotten; it had no debuff vomit, it was just see the mechanic then react to said mechanic) and healers were still in the toilet in ShB

Party members being hit by random autos at random times if that’s what you mean won’t really work with how slow and unresponsive 14 is



Yes but the point I’m making is people want to play the DPS classes so there isn’t a problem, people don’t want to play healers so there is a problem

---

There are players that still do want to play healers, even now. They are rather few and are dwarfed by the DPS population, but there are also way more DPS jobs than any other type. The healer role isn't completely abandoned by the players. SE has exact metrics on how many hours people are playing as healers and I doubt it's so low that they are panicking about healer participation in duties, although we will probably never know the exact number ourselves. I feel that for SE to seriously consider changing things drastically to accommodate healers it would have to become impossible to use the duty finder because so few healers play to fulfill requiremnts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensui

Never played a MMO where that's not a thing.

---

I remember playing Everquest and the community greatly appreciated Clerics and they were an incredible addition not only to the party but just for the tools they had outside of combat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

I remember playing Everquest and the community greatly appreciated Clerics and they were an incredible addition not only to the party but just for the tools they had outside of combat.

---

Yeah, other games have actual support / buffer /debuffer classes. 11 for example, skill chain and magic bursting. Could you imagine?

I actually really want to try out XI but not enough to pay another subscription for it, especially since I would have to figure out how to run the levelling experience solo with trusts and from what I have seen that game offers little guidance to new players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

It's been my experience that when people say they "offered friendly advice" what they actually did was insult the player then told them to unsub or go watch a guide. Then they wonder why they got reported.

---

Being reported for insulting is well deserved. But suggested to watch a guide? Is that even an offense?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Being reported for insulting is well deserved. But suggested to watch a guide? Is that even an offense?

---

I've unironically seen someone say that asking someone to go watch a guide is you disrespecting their time. I wish it was a joke.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensui

Yeah, other games have actual support / buffer /debuffer classes. 11 for example, skill chain and magic bursting. Could you imagine?

---

Don't have to imagine how it worked there, but it was also far from great, and would more than likely work far worse here. Having to stick to just certain actions (and certain GCD speeds; Monk presumably gets told to get lost and SAM to equal NIN speed precisely) out of your whole kit per comp so that you could loop a multi-player-combo repeatedly is not an improvement to the gameplay, yeah that's the core of Skill Chains and Magic Bursts. Anything more productive would hardly be related to the original mechanics. Arguably, the fact that anyone using a weaponskill/spell out of combined party order and rhythm ruining the SC / MB... is core to those SC / MB mechanics.

Both mechanics were, in a nutshell, means of reduction (with other job/comp A, your viable choices become limited to X) for actual gameplay, replacing individual choice with pattern-matching and effectively making button bloat / narrowed and wasteful kits. It added an element of "party play", but in a particularly bloated/invasive/reductive manner. We can do better without it. Arguably even what we do now is still better.

(Neither had much to do with support/buffer/debuffer classes, either. Supports/buffers/debuffers didn't uniquely have access to the elements or attack types necessary to burst prior magics or chain off prior skills.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

snip

---

First and foremost, I think we need to look at Savage, Criterion and Ultimate all separately as they're asking very different things from their target demographic.

Nothing in Savage is all that demanding once you get in there and go through the typical trial and error one might expect. Ultimate, in my opinion, peeked with Dragonsong while Omega veered into "these mechanics simply aren't fun" territory. Naturally, that's subjective. I know several people who do enjoy TOP and plenty more who never want to see it again. I'm partially on the fence myself.

So what went wrong? Debuff vomit. You see a little bit of this in Savage and even Dragonsong but Omega constantly demands you keep looking at the party list, looking at other players, remembering symbols and etc. At some point you're so bogged down by the sheer amount of stuff you're tasked to remember and do, you're not engaging with the fight itself.

Criterion is where... it gets a bit odd. Ultimate is sort of intended to be the masochistic pursuit. At least if you're attempting it on content, or even in the expansion it released in. You kind of expect it even if some argue TOP went overboard. I have no clue who Criterion was designed for. While you might think the hardcore player. It's lack of rewards meant many of them where never going to look at it. While the difficulty is far high for more casual raiders.

Having never set foot in Criterion, I can't really comment on how I'd feel about Statice. At a glance, she looked like a complete cluster. Even the first boss is asking a lot from players. Despite that, I know several players who have killed and love the fight design for its sheer creativity, melee downtime notwithstanding.

I think the bigger issue isn't so much mechanics becoming too complicated but the near constant easing of every other aspect of the game has made it much harder for newer players to get their feet wet. The high end scene is an enormous step up from basically everything else. Granted, Extremes have arguably become more forgiving than they ever were.

Way I see it, why can't we have both? There's no reason some jobs can't be more complex than others provided they're rewarding to play. Black Mage isn't popular but ask any who main it and they're praise it up and down. Likewise, having some very mechanically dense fights, be they in Savage, Ultimate or Criterion isn't a bad thing. Just maybe lower the body checks a little or make visual cues more apparent? On the casual side, maybe bring things up just a notch. Especially if you're sale's pitch for the expansion is going to be yet another flashy healy spell they'll never actually press.

"Just maybe lower the body checks a little or make visual cues more apparent? On the casual side, maybe bring things up just a notch. Especially if you're sale's pitch for the expansion is going to be yet another flashy healy spell they'll never actually press."
The body checks have become a bit crazy tbh. We saw it already in shiva with Light rampant being the worst offender but then again with lions and so on. It never ended. I have raided since ARR and Ive never had to switch statics so many time as during the last 2-3 years due to the bodychecks making it impossible to get through a fight if not everyone knows exatly what to do. It is supposed to be fun, be recoverable. Yesterday my group went into P8S to get a clear for a friend for TOP and it was actually fun. Granted, we had echo and people were rusty as hell but things were recoverable, I got to use all my skills when shit went south and get the group up and the only real bad bodychecks were high concepts. We were actually laughing and joking. I havent laughed and joked during savage for a long long time. I think your sentenced summed it up pretty nicely. Casual contest is a snoozefest and savage is now a bodycheck and ultimate can be done without healers. Something went wrong somewhere.

One thing I’ve never understood about more and more healing spells is the fact that unlike DPS and tanks which build on each other every healing skill you get is functionally a current healing skill you are going to press less to compensate

Like is getting pnuema equivalent 2.0 at level 100 really that exciting when it means you are going to be pressing actual pnuema less often than you do now

When was the last time any healer got a skill that felt like it was actively building off something else to give a coherent playstyle where you both enjoy pressing the new skill and also pressing older skills in order to get to said new skill (like how paradox makes the entire astral fire phase better or the spellblade combo made confitier better)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

So what went wrong? Debuff vomit. You see a little bit of this in Savage and even Dragonsong but Omega constantly demands you keep looking at the party list, looking at other players, remembering symbols and etc. At some point you're so bogged down by the sheer amount of stuff you tasked to remember and do, you're not engaging with the fight itself.

---

Not only that but we had quite the few instances in TOP where groups had reached the max buff/debuff limit that they weren't getting their buffs during certain burst phases and this was causing them to miss the dps check on p4 and the like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Not only that but we had quite the few instances in TOP where groups had reached the max buff/debuff limit that they weren't getting their buffs during certain burst phases and this was causing them to miss the dps check on p4 and the like.

---

They have to realize their mistake here finally right? Running into the buff/debuff cap happened with delubrum savage already but this time it happened in content jobs should be designed for.