Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Entilper

Exactly. The new AST cooldown reduction proves that something can have synergy with the job without being OP, if it's really well-thought-out. I hope that if they don't fix WHM in 4.0, they at least do something for 4.X, because announcing that Cure 2 has a 100% proc rate on lilies changes nothing. The problem is the system itself.

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Based on the screenshot from PVP :

I don't know guys, but have access to Assize every 30 sec, it's pretty nice and powerful.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Based on the screenshot from PVP :

I don't know guys, but have access to Assize every 30 sec, it's pretty nice and powerful.

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That's from PvP. Not only does lily work differently there, but that content actually rewards cure spamming. PvE doesn't, which is why even with a 100% proc chance, Lily generation being tied exclusively to Cure/II is a bad decision.

In PvP, yeah you'll see extremely good use out of 30 second Assize and Tetragrammaton.
In PvE, most of the time you won't even have lilies to benefit from CD reduction at all.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Based on the screenshot from PVP :

I don't know guys, but have access to Assize every 30 sec, it's pretty nice and powerful.

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If the PvE numbers are anything like the PvP numbers it will be worth tossing a couple of cure 2 to get some garanteed reduction. That is a huge cut to our CDs. I understand wishing the lilies did something else but a plannable 50% reduction to something like Bene is nothing to sneeze at.

Honestly, it just kind of feels like SE has no idea what to do with white mage so they just ripped the guts out and made it cross-class and tacked on this lily system. Esuna and protect are both now taking up one of 5 CC slots instead of being default abilities. There's a lot of lost ground for us to make up, and a drop in cooldown (which we can't even use selectively) isn't really enough to make up for the loss.

I have to say it's a little hard to take any positives out of these changes so far. I really hope we're missing something and that when Stormblood officially arrives things straighten themselves out.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Esuna and protect are both now taking up one of 5 CC slots.

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Same thing happened to BRD and MCH with MP/TP restoration, though, and yet there really isn't much outcry about that. And then PLD also lost both Rampart, Conv, and Provoke, all powerful abilities, and no one bats an eye. It really does feel like people are just whining for special treatment...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It really does feel like people are just whining for special treatment...

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Well, since you want to go there, let's go over what we actually lost to cross-role skills shall we?

Divine Seal - 20% Buff to heals
Shroud of Saints - 50% Enmity drop and MP regen
Protect
Stoneskin I/II
Esuna

No one bats an eye at PLD having Rampart et al in their cross-roles since they were already cross-role skills used by virtually every tank ever! Sure they're pretty darn mandatory, but at least those make sense! We didn't really have much going for us as it is, and what we have left is slowly being offered up as boons to Scholars and Astrologians. In return we get... lillies, which have zero effect other than changing cooldown timers. Um... yay, I guess. Beats a slap in the face, but we already had a ton of those so far.

The only 'special treatment' white mage is getting is the long shaft of a Dragoon's polearm.

To be fair White Mage has always recieved the Shaft. Go back to 2.X Patch Notes, and 3.X patch notes you will see we have been hit the most with Nerfs.
I mean you would think with everything that happened 2.x,3.x and now 4.0... That the other two Healers should give us some "Toys" that they have.
Can we have Balance, Eos, Adlo *300% crit shield*, cool animations ect..?
No? No? Come 5.0 are you going to give them our Holy, Cure III, Bendiction, and Assize as well? Seriously are you going to take that from us as well? You know maybe come 5.0 we will have like 12 abilities left??
Keep your Eye and your bonus Mp Regen give me real toys.

AST and WHM BOTH lost Divine Seal (Synastry no longer buffs healing done). AST and WHM BOTH lost of Shroud of Saints. All healers lost their Esuna. The fact remains that every single healer is going to be taking the same crap, there's really no point any longer about whining that WHM lost all this stuff.

The upgrade from Aero to Aero 2 is ridiculously dumb if current numbers remain the same.

Aero: 50 on application, 25 pot over 18 seconds. Total Potency: 200

Aero 2: 50 on application, 50 pot over 12 seconds. Total Potency: 250.

Losing a spell and only gaining 50 potency is a terrible design choice. Aero 2 needs to be 18 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Aero 2 needs to be 18 seconds.

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IIRC it is 18 seconds, though. And yeah, all healers did lose all the same things, those being MP Regen/cleanse/DoTs/heal buffs.

*Something something 4.0 Balance Something Something no Healer or Tank.*
We didn't even get neat animations.
Edit: DId we get any info on where 10% of our Divine seal is going?

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Originally Posted by Elamys

AST and WHM BOTH lost Divine Seal (Synastry no longer buffs healing done). AST and WHM BOTH lost of Shroud of Saints. All healers lost their Esuna. The fact remains that every single healer is going to be taking the same crap, there's really no point any longer about whining that WHM lost all this stuff.

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With all due respect AST lost the healing buff off of Synastry but retained the usful single target healing boost it provided. They can reclaim the 20% boost with Largess.

WHM lost 30% global healing upgrade but can buy it back 10% weaker. If Divine Seal had a secondary componant to fall back on like Synastry did I don't think it would be as big a deal because we wouldn't have lost an entire ability.

We have less abilities than the other healers. Three less buttons and ten fewer in total. Heck we wouldn't even be upset about RNG lilies if they led us to useful things.

Also don't forget Astro Sects were "Buffed" as well across the board. We only got a buff to Cure and Cure II what a joke..

Every healer lost something. Maybe there is a reason we aren't seeing that got AST those boosts. Maybe they've already been tweaked. In comparison to the other healers they seem to have gotten a bit more love I agree, but maybe they are the baseline square will raise us to? Maybe ASTs build was just done first.

Just try to stay positive. This isn't a 'nerf AST' thread this is a 'fix WHM' thread.

I didn't say Nerf Astro, Just asked if we could get Balance, Pets, Adlos ect.
Its not going to happen but could always dream. You know maybe the other two healers should share the "Really good Toys."

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

I didn't say Nerf Astro, Just asked if we could get Balance, Pets, Adlos ect.
Its not going to happen but could always dream. You know maybe the other two healers should share the "Really good Toys."

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I'd rather we get our own stuff than borrow toys from the other classes. Down that road lies homogenized healers. There have been a ton of awesome suggestions in this thread for uniquely WHM stuff. ReRaise is probably my favorite but Reflect and Dia are also great.

I'll just ask this question again to SE;

Why did we not only lose Stoneskin I/II, but keep Repose? Wasn't the purpose of this pruning for removing lesser used skills and/or overly niche abilities? Repose sees extremely little use in PVE areas. The only place Repose saw good usage was in PVP, but with the separation of PVP and PVE abilities, Repose became even more useless! The only time I remember trying to use Repose is the 1st boss of Brayflox NM, and even then it only helps if people pay attention. Keeping Repose is just added insult to injury to White Mages.

Repose, and Sleep from BLM, should've been removed.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

That's from PvP. Not only does lily work differently there, but that content actually rewards cure spamming. PvE doesn't, which is why even with a 100% proc chance, Lily generation being tied exclusively to Cure/II is a bad decision.

In PvP, yeah you'll see extremely good use out of 30 second Assize and Tetragrammaton.
In PvE, most of the time you won't even have lilies to benefit from CD reduction at all.

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I'm starting to think they designed WHM for PvP first, then copied the mechanics across to PvE and addjusted it in a spreadsheet to meet some overall 'healing power' number; would explain a lot...

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

If the PvE numbers are anything like the PvP numbers it will be worth tossing a couple of cure 2 to get some garanteed reduction. That is a huge cut to our CDs. I understand wishing the lilies did something else but a plannable 50% reduction to something like Bene is nothing to sneeze at.

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While 50% CD reductions in certain situations would be nice, I'm really not looking forward to a rotation of Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Assize > Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Tetra > Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Asylum > Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Bene > Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Assive > ...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Same thing happened to BRD and MCH with MP/TP restoration, though, and yet there really isn't much outcry about that. And then PLD also lost both Rampart, Conv, and Provoke, all powerful abilities, and no one bats an eye. It really does feel like people are just whining for special treatment...

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That's because BRD, MCH and PLD all got interesting, and more importantly, useful new abilities in exchange for what they lost... WHM not only lost more abilities than any other job (and arguably some class defining ones at that) but gained nothing in exchange except RNG stacks and CD reduction (yet somehow still has Repose, and a now next to useless Fluid Aura).

Also, a bit off topic but...

Outside of savage raids TP / MP restore has always been optional, and in 4.0 there is also cross-role Goad and the new BLM mana batteries (patent pending).

Rampart I would agree is a bad choice, as it is basically mandatory (and interacts with one of PLDs new abilities?). Also, to me, it doesn't really fit the theme of WAR, and Shadowskin really could have had something more interesting done with it (combo with Dark Arts anyone?).

Convalescence; perfect choice for cross-role, as while it's certainly nice, it's nowhere near mandatory in most content.

Provoke… is an interesting one, as it's a nice backup (and long-range pull), but outside of tank swaps you really shouldn't need it. And speaking of tank swaps, with the new AoE Provoke and Enmity push (Shirk?) abilities, there are technically other options come 4.0.

I've mained White Mage for 3 years, and I'm personally very disappointed with these changes.

The Secret of the Lily UI element, to me, feels very tacked on. If it was something that had been introduced beyond lv60 through some story connection (perhaps the Primal Lakshmi) I might have been able to swallow it. But with the data we have, it in fact comes at lv52 - so, it has no relationship whatsover with any thematics that were built up during the Conjurer/White Mage story.

I think it's a loss not to have directed this toward being more thematic; perhaps such as separate Elemental & Lifestream gauges that, while full, would increase the spellcasting ability (spell speed, the way Square Enix seemed to want) of the respectively-concerned spells (elemental attacks/healing magic). So, as curative spells are used and strain the connection to the lifestream, the WHM's spellspeed bonus for healing would recede... but then would be an ideal time to switch to elemental combat magic, DPSing while the lifestream gauge would resplenish.

To me this would be an echo of how White Mage were used to playing with Stance-Dancing, but with positive reinforcements rather than restrictions. It'd have been rewarding us with more dynamic play when we were trying to get the most out of our class. High-end actions (Quake, Flood, Tornado, Re-Raise, Curaga, Reflect) could have been cap-stone abilities that could have been empowered by being used while their respective gauge would have been high.

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Losing Aero due to folding it in Aero 2 means that we will no longer be able to cast Aero 1/2/3 and keep up those DoTs on the same target. With the numbers we currently have, it doesn't look like the new Aero 2's potency currently makes up for that (and Aero 2 remains a cruelly shorter 12 seconds compared to the 18 second Aero 1).

Hopefully, this will get corrected, but right now, Aero 2 as shown is currently a worse ability than Aero 1. Shorter duration, same damage, bigger MP cost.

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Thin Air is a very nice ability. I believe this is common consensus for most WHM players; especially in the context of repeated Holy casts combined with Presence of Mind. The recast of 4 minutes, though, means that it'll be only an occasionally used novelty (Due to cooldowns/remaining MP, I holy spam every 2 encounters - this might help me increase the frequency to 3 holy spams per 4 encounters). It is nice, but due to the recast, it's not as amazing at it sounds.

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Divine Benison is a slightly better Stoneskin potency-wise that has an extremely long recast, and - according to our current info - is cruelly gated. Its spontaneity seems to be its only real asset, to gird a target against a damage spike, but that would be much better if it wasn't already gated by Lilies (and inefficiently so at that: useable at 1 lily, but consumes all the lilies you have? Yick).

This hardly feels like an improvement. I guess I could get much more behind it if - at least - it could consume a Lily like a resource, similarily to how Aetherflow works, without being hampered by such a long recast time (no recast would make it an amazing gated ability worth preparing for).

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Plenary Indulgence, the lv70 WHM capstone. The confession stack gating seems offputting, but let's take a step back and take a careful look at it. This ability has no range, it's a 30y point-blank AoE that comes from the White Mage herself - this is twice the radius of Assize, which seems decent. The spell also has an extremely fast recast time of 15 seconds, without any MP cost.

So, the way we could surmise it'd work is that the people we cure would accrue confession stacks. In 15 second, we can do about 3 Cure spells. So, if I cured a tank, a DPS and then the other DPS, triggering Plenary Indulgence would each give them extra healing equal to a Cure spell. 3 confessions on the same character would equate roughly to a Cure 2.

If it just came to that, Plenary Indulgence could come across as a conditional, but potentially very effective and MP-economical source of healings. WHMs could rejoice; it's not exciting, but it is potentially powerful.

BUT - Confession stacks have a 20% chance of happening on every Cure 1/Cure 2 spells.Meaning that it'd take on average 5 Cure spells (roughly 25 seconds) to have a decent chance of getting -something- out of Plenary Indulgence, and up to 75 seconds to garner its full potential.

That measly chance to get a confession stack reduces Plenary Indulgence from 'interesting' to 'downright mediocre'... which is sad for an ability that is supposedly the lv70 capstone. It doesn't even measure up to Tetragramation.

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And on top of that, White Mage loses most of its ability to role actions... meaning that just in the act of recuperating these essentials, there's no way for a WHM to enjoy the few other new abilities without sacrificing something relatively important. If I'd indulge in dramatizing, I'd call that "adding insult to injury".

. . .

My impression thus far? This is disheartening. Most of the abilities we get fail to seem fun, fail to feel truly potent, fail to make playing WHM feel like a rewarding and valued job to pursue. I don't know what the Devs at Square Enix were thinking, but this is not the White Mage I was excited to continue playing. I see what the other jobs have been given, and it often feels like they've been hit on the nail. I look at the arguments that the Devs know better, have the bigger picture; but based on what I've witnessed so far, what I see is the work of people that look extremely disconnected to what FF14 had made of the Conjurer/White Mage before.

I will wait for the patch notes, but it's hard not to feel glum.

Stoneskin's base cast time on WHM is 2.5s (Quick Stoneskin trait).
Well of course Adlo and Noct Asp Benefic are better, but Stoneskin is the only mitigation WHM had. There are mechanics that are IMPOSSIBLE for WHM to handle now if you go into the encounters synced! (eg T10 prey).
Stoneskin was perfect for counteracting the HP reduction from weakness, especially if a high damage raidwide is going to come out.
It's not the best skill, but it absolutely had its uses.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

AST and WHM BOTH lost Divine Seal (Synastry no longer buffs healing done). AST and WHM BOTH lost of Shroud of Saints. All healers lost their Esuna. The fact remains that every single healer is going to be taking the same crap, there's really no point any longer about whining that WHM lost all this stuff.

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Except WHM is losing FIVE abilities.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

I'd rather we get our own stuff than borrow toys from the other classes. Down that road lies homogenized healers.

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If SE really cared about that then AST would be entirely different then what it is now.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

I'm starting to think they designed WHM for PvP first, then copied the mechanics across to PvE and adjusted it in a spreadsheet to meet some overall 'healing power' number; would explain a lot...

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It's almost mind blowing how true this starts to look the more you think about it. Yoshi-P has a real big crush with PvP, Fluid Aura, Sleep, etc.

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Originally Posted by IhzaMhaskova

Stoneskin's base cast time on WHM is 2.5s (Quick Stoneskin trait).
...
It's not the best skill, but it absolutely had its uses.

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The stupid part of Stoneskin when they changed it from 18% for the now (and soon to be gone) Quick Stoneskin trait was they didn't even bother with adjusting the MP values to match the new 10% shield value.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Do they really though? Because I am struggling to find White Mage's niche. They...

- are not the strongest single target healer
- are the worst mitigation healer
- are the worst utility healer
- are debatably better at aoe healing

Therefore, we are left with damage. This could work were it significant enough to offset the aforementioned drawbacks, however that just isn't the case with Balance still existing. All in all, the only niche I see them filling are in casual content. Of course, we'll see what potential changes come in a week.

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I've been trying to do some potency crunches based off the current numbers and here are my results. Please be advised these are with currently known numbers that are subject to change at release and I wouldn't mind other players to proof read my work either since nothing is perfect.

I've tried to simulate total healing potential over a course of three minutes using a 2.5s GCD and with 0s oGCDs just for the sake of easy calculations. In total all three healers get 72 GCDs every 3 minutes to work with the one exception PoM gives WHM two additional GCD (they get 8 GCDs in the same time frame all other healers would get 6 with the 15s duration of PoM). I've also tried to account for Largresse up time and any beneficial procs such as Enhanced Benefic and Freecure. I've made notes on some of my thoughts in the right most column as well. I didn't include Lily's in the calculation though overall this simulation would generate the WHM 21 Lilies and more than enough to fuel Divine Benison.

Please also be advised that in general healer's never have 100% healing uptime and this simulation is only to show absolute potentials. How they'll be applied in practice will be completely up to raid design and any number changes that'll occur with release.

I've split the result into three categories - absolute total potency; total potency using purely oGCDs and HoT (free / passive healing); and total MP consumed and you can find that below:

D.AST
Total Potency: 57,442
HoT / oGCD Potency: 19,868
MP Consumed: 46,560

N.AST
Total Potency: 56,414
HoT / oGCD Potency: 8,500
MP Consumed: 46,560

SCH
Total Potency: 54,270
HoT / oGCD Potency: 20,420
MP Consumed: 54,000

WHM
Total Potency: 53,875
HoT / oGCD Potency: 21,155
MP Consumed: 40,560


So in general WHM has the lowest overall single target potential but has some of the highest, I will say, passive potential in their oGCDs and HoTs. They also consume the lowest MP out of the three healers to reach their potency numbers by a fairly decent margin (at least 10% lower than all other healers). Take into account that the numbers don't account for Thin Air either and I don't account for MP regeneration tools. In general, I'd surmise that WHMs are now the energizer bunnies of the healers and can go on for days up days of healing.

Just like there were advocates of adjusting playstyles to allow for AST/SCH to take hold, raids employing a WHM will need to change from the current optimal strategy of having healer's share responsibilities and double down on the Main Heal/Off Heal strategy employed greatly in the 2.0 era. WHMs will thrive in taking a higher responsibility of healing just by the nature of their way their kit works. It is counter intuitive to how healers are played in general and is also the crux of the main complaints towards the current WHM kit.

I don't think WHM is badly off one would think but the kit is extremely counter-intuitive mess compared to the streamlined nature of AST and SCH and thus harder to simulate compared to their competition.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

So in general WHM has the lowest overall single target potential but has some of the highest, I will say, passive potential in their oGCDs and HoTs. They also consume the lowest MP out of the three healers to reach their potency numbers by a fairly decent margin (at least 10% lower than all other healers). Take into account that the numbers don't account for Thin Air either and I don't account for MP regeneration tools. In general, I'd surmise that WHMs are now the energizer bunnies of the healers and can go on for days up days of healing.

Just like there were advocates of adjusting playstyles to allow for AST/SCH to take hold, raids employing a WHM will need to change from the current optimal strategy of having healer's share responsibilities and double down on the Main Heal/Off Heal strategy employed greatly in the 2.0 era. WHMs will thrive in taking a higher responsibility of healing just by the nature of their way their kit works. It is counter intuitive to how healers are played in general and is also the crux of the main complaints towards the current WHM kit.

I don't think WHM is badly off one would think but the kit is extremely counter-intuitive mess compared to the streamlined nature of AST and SCH and thus harder to simulate compared to their competition.

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A few questions about it.
I get not including Lightspeed/Thin Air to an extent since using it could be considered extra. Lucid Dreaming would cancel out so moot.
Tho Lustrate and Assize are unusable without the MP recovery, so its harder to ignore that part of MP gain in the calculations. On the note of Lustrate, why 6 instead of 9? In a 3 min test it should end just before being able to use your 4th Aetherflow for uses 10-12. I'm running this under the assumption the test begins with the need to use Aetherflow to get 3 charges.
Since its a single target test, how are you calculating confession stacks per use of Plenary Indulgence?
Assuming as such, but anyways, was Dissipation ignored in favor of embrace count? (practically speaking probably a better idea for a SCH, to keep the faerie over the healing boost)

And WHM has always felt like the strongest solo healer, to me at least, this math at least seems to agree with that. Time will tell if another Odin Trial type fight can prove it to be true in the 4.X series.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

3. Job skills

- White Mages have access to the fewest skills of all 3 healers:
WHM: Spells in List: 26....................Spells after consolidation: 22....................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 0.............Total Usable Abilities: 22
SCH: Spells in List: 30......................Spells after consolidation: 28....................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 8 (Faerie).Total Usable Abilities: 36
AST: Spells in List: 29......................Spells after Consolidation: 27...................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 8 (Cards).Total Usable Abilities: 33*
** We understand that AST cards are RNG oriented. This is why they are so powerful. This does not mean the WHM can't have access to weak abilities that are reliable and consistent to make up for situations when you have a WHM/AST or WHM/SCH.

Is it really too much to ask that you look at the list and say, "Hey, WHM has fewer skills than the other two healers, why don't we go back and fill out their lower level abilities and spells to pad out and fill gaps for abilities that we took from them?" How could something like this escape quality assessment especially in an expansion where the balance between us healers was supposed to be a focus?

- Why are Faeries/Cards considered in the above? Simple: Summoners have been begging since 2.X for more egis to summon and every time Square-Enix has replied no citing that ability numbers had to be similar across all jobs. I (yes, I the OP) just want to make sure they are holding themselves accountable to that statement.

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I believe this should be a more accurate count:

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WHM: Spells in List: 25....................Spells after consolidation: 21....................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 0.............Total Usable Abilities: 21
SCH: Spells in List: 26......................Spells after consolidation: 23....................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 8 (Faerie).Total Usable Abilities: 31
AST: Spells in List: 28......................Spells after Consolidation: 24...................Bonus Spells/Abilities: 8 (Cards).Total Usable Abilities: 32*

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Here's the full spell lists:

WHM

1. Stone (Consolidated)
2. Cure
3. Aero (Consolidated)
4. Medica
5. Raise
6. Fluid Aura
7. Stone II (Consolidated)
8. Repose
9. Cure II
10. Cure III
11. Aero II
12. Medica II
13. Pressence of Mind
14. Regen
15. Holy
16. Benediction
17. Asylum
18. Stone III (Consolidated)
19. Assize
20. Aero III
21. Tetragammaton
22. Thin Air
23. Stone IV
24. Divine Benison
25. Plenary Indulgence

AST

1. Malefic (Consolidated)
2. Benefic
3. Combust (Consolidated)
4. Lightspeed
5. Helios
6. Ascend
7. Essential Dignity
8. Benefic II
9. Draw
10. Diurnal Sect
11. Undraw (Consolidated)
12. Aspected Benefic
13. Royal Road
14. Spread
15. Aspeted Helios
16. Redraw
17. Combust II
18. Nocturnal Sect
19. Synastry
20. Gravity
21. Malefic II (Consolidated)
22. Time Dilation
23. Collective Unconciousness
24. Celestial Opposition
25. Earthly Star
26. Malefic III
27. Minor Arcana
28. Sleeve Draw

SCH

1. Ruin (Consolidated)
2. Bio (Consolidated)
3. Summon
4. Physick
5. Aetherflow
6. Energy Drain
7. Miasma
8. Summon II
9. Resurrection
10. Bio II
11. Bane
12. Ruin II
13. Rouse
14. Shadow Flare
15. Adloquium
16. Succor
17. Sacred Soil
18. Lustrate
19. Indomitability
20. Broil (Consolidated)
21. Deployment Tactics
22. Emergency Tactics
23. Dissipation
24. Excogtanion
25. Broil II
26. Chain Strategem
27. Aetherpact (Removed and Included in the Pet Section)
28. Fey Union (Removed and Included in the Pet Section)

I still believe its a misnomer to include the card effects towards the AST ability count but it's up to you how you wish to present it. You can find my argument why in this post.

[edit]

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

A few questions about it.
I get not including Lightspeed/Thin Air to an extent since using it could be considered extra. Lucid Dreaming would cancel out so moot.
Tho Lustrate and Assize are unusable without the MP recovery, so its harder to ignore that part of MP gain in the calculations. On the note of Lustrate, why 6 instead of 9? In a 3 min test it should end just before being able to use your 4th Aetherflow for uses 10-12. I'm running this under the assumption the test begins with the need to use Aetherflow to get 3 charges.

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Excogitation consumes an aetherflow stack and has a 50 potency higher heal on 60s CD so it's better to use for overall healing effectiveness. I will include the extra 3 Lustrates though.

New Values:

D.AST
Total Potency: 57,442
HoT / oGCD Potency: 19,868
MP Consumed: 46,560

N.AST
Total Potency: 56,414
HoT / oGCD Potency: 8,500
MP Consumed: 46,560

SCH
Total Potency: 56,070
HoT / oGCD Potency: 22,220
MP Consumed: 54,000

WHM
Total Potency: 53,875
HoT / oGCD Potency: 21,155
MP Consumed: 40,560

The extra 3 Lustrates does push WHM down for the top contender on the passive healing front.


In terms of MP regen, I chose to ignore that for now since we don't know exactly how much MP they'll be regenerating. I don't believe ther's been any clips on how much MP / tick Lucid Dreaming gives back nor am I sure what the current MP pools are for SCH and WHM to calculate the MP recovery Assize and Aetherflow.

I do like you pointing it out is a good thing as it's difficult to depict exactly what the MP consumption for each healer is like but it remains an important talking point when dealing with each healer's effective MP pool.

[EDIT2]

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

Since its a single target test, how are you calculating confession stacks per use of Plenary Indulgence?

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I just went under the assumption that the tank will always have one confession stack. When you're curing as often as this simulates it's not hard to think that the probability will occur that the tank will get one stack every 20 seconds. It's a bit of a conservative estimate but you'll generally want to spend PI as soon as the opportunity presents itself as each additional stack only gives another 100 potency compared to the 400 initial potency. PI is going to be a hard ability to judge overall because as fights get easier and easier due to gear, the WHM will generate less and less confession stacks as there is just less to heal.

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

Assuming as such, but anyways, was Dissipation ignored in favor of embrace count? (practically speaking probably a better idea for a SCH, to keep the faerie over the healing boost)

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Yes, Dissipation is ignored for Embrace. It's hard to gauge if Dissipation will come into play for SCH in 4.0 until we see how the Fairy Gauge interacts with summons. The lower potency on Embrace will mean a larger reliance on Fey Union to make up the lost potency. Dissipation being able to generate more stacks will affect that. Additionally, if resummong a fairy will precharge the gauge it'll also be in the SCH's interest to re-summon the fairy often for higher spikes heals, though this will generally cost them both MP and Switftcast. Dissipation will also help with this since you're at least making some use of the fairy sacrifice though depending on the fight it might not be worth the loss of the Fairy.

If anything the lower Embrace potency will mean Dissipation is slightly more palatable since 3x Lustrate will definitely out heal the loss of the Fairy for that duration.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Snip

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Sorry looks like the 6 Lustrate math was right, I didnt account for the Aetherflow Charge use on Excogitation. If I would've included those it would account for the 9 expected charges.

And I can see where your coming from on Assize/Aetherflow in regards to the math working as it is right now, wed have to have a relatively good idea where the base lvl 70 gear MP was at for all 3 to work with those.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I believe this should be a more accurate count:

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Updated. Thanks for that and apoligies from the misrepresentation. I updated the original mess with the counts from the google doc, but it apparently counted the 5 from cross-roles as well, and had already consolidated them and I hadn't realized that -_-;; Reading comp fail...

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

I'm starting to think they designed WHM for PvP first, then copied the mechanics across to PvE and addjusted it in a spreadsheet to meet some overall 'healing power' number; would explain a lot...

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It really does feel that way. It would explain why we kept Repose of all things.
Plenary Indulgence and the lily system in general sounds PERFECT in PvP content. Borderline broken for a healer even.
I seriously hope this isn't the case. WHM, one of the most iconic jobs in the series being isolated into PvP play in a PvE heavy game sounds awful and unfair.

@Divine Seal being lost: The only job this hurt is WHM. SCH still has its healing CDs, AST already had a 20% healing buff so they haven't lost anything, but they did retain their synastry effect to double heal, which effectively makes their healing CD completely better. Not to mention they have a permanent 15% healing buff on everything.

The decision to bring Divine Seal into crossrole is mind boggling. It just doesn't make sense no matter which way I look at it.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

It really does feel that way. It would explain why we kept Repose of all things.

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Except not really. Come 4.0 PVE and PVP skills will be completely separate, so Repose as a PVE skill can't be used in PVP. Hell, Repose isn't even a 4.0 PVP Action!

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/002069.html

SO WHY ARE WE KEEPING REPOSE IN 4.0? This isn't even about me being mad about losing Stoneskin anymore. I'm simply dumbfounded that a skill that mainly saw use in PVP is not only being removed from PVP, but being kept in PVE where the # of useful situations are nearly non-existent!

EDIT #1: On the topic of PVP, what will PVP ranks do once 4.0 hits? Will they be purely for achievements or will you still need them to unlock PVP actions/traits?

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Except not really. Come 4.0 PVE and PVP skills will be completely separate, so Repose as a PVE skill can't be used in PVP. Hell, Repose isn't even a 4.0 PVP Action!

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Oh good lord SE, what are you even doing....

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

SO WHY ARE WE KEEPING REPOSE IN 4.0? This isn't even about me being mad about losing Stoneskin anymore. I'm simply dumbfounded that a skill that mainly saw use in PVP is not only being removed from PVP, but being kept in PVE where the # of useful situations are nearly non-existent!

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I question this, too. Unless they are introducing mechanics for which sleep skills are useful, Repose will continue to be worthless in PvE. You'd think this skill would be one of the first to get cut when they're looking to eliminate unnecessary actions.

Well, when I was leveling my WHM way back when, I actually found it quite nice to just Repose everyone but who the tank was focusing(Because he certainly wasn't going to hold threat on more than 1 target) and then DPS them down one by one without the tank taking any damage.

I guess there's not been an use for the skill in PvP in about 3 years, though.

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Originally Posted by Shayuki

Well, when I was leveling my WHM way back when, I actually found it quite nice to just Repose everyone but who the tank was focusing(Because he certainly wasn't going to hold threat on more than 1 target) and then DPS them down one by one without the tank taking any damage.

I guess there's not been an use for the skill in PvP in about 3 years, though.

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In PVE that works occassionally at best. Even in low level dungeons these days I've found as I do leveling roulette from time to time, people don't focus one mob. Bards will DoT things up (and even though repose will sleep it with dots up, they'll keep hitting it anyway for... reasons), tanks will swap targets to keep aggro AoE etc. Most people play as if sleep is totally not a thing since that's how it's treated end game =/

I'm really hoping for mobs that need to be slept or CC'd and focus fired instead of all aoe all the time except for boss.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Except not really. Come 4.0 PVE and PVP skills will be completely separate, so Repose as a PVE skill can't be used in PVP. Hell, Repose isn't even a 4.0 PVP Action!

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/002069.html

SO WHY ARE WE KEEPING REPOSE IN 4.0? This isn't even about me being mad about losing Stoneskin anymore. I'm simply dumbfounded that a skill that mainly saw use in PVP is not only being removed from PVP, but being kept in PVE where the # of useful situations are nearly non-existent!

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Maybe when looking at how often skills are used they didn't separate pvp and pve and saw repose was very frequently used, so they decided to keep it, but then when they redesigned pvp they didn't bother to look at how often skills were used and just tried to design a specific type of pvp and cut repose.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

In PVE that works occassionally at best. Even in low level dungeons these days I've found as I do leveling roulette from time to time, people don't focus one mob. Bards will DoT things up (and even though repose will sleep it with dots up, they'll keep hitting it anyway for... reasons), tanks will swap targets to keep aggro AoE etc. Most people play as if sleep is totally not a thing since that's how it's treated end game =/

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I know that people actually have sleep like that before, but I agree that it is no longer a thing. Most players realize that putting mobs to sleep as an xping tactic is a complete waste of time since AoE skills and DoTs are available even at low levels, and it makes a lot more sense just to let everyone use their skills to maximum efficiency.

But yes, it boggles my mind that Repose is untouched while someone had the bright idea of removing the damage component from Fluid Aura, because apparently one oGCD attack that was a DPS gain on bosses and other immovable critters needed fixing....

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I question this, too. Unless they are introducing mechanics for which sleep skills are useful, Repose will continue to be worthless in PvE. You'd think this skill would be one of the first to get cut when they're looking to eliminate unnecessary actions.

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The only thing I'd argue is that they kept it in for low level dungeons. But then I'd question why they took away out mitigation until level 60+ >_>
Just odd changes all around for WHM.

Also I doubt they'd have anything requiring sleep. BEC you'd then have to bring a WHM/BLM, so that's out of the question.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

The only thing I'd argue is that they kept it in for low level dungeons. But then I'd question why they took away out mitigation until level 60+ >_>
Just odd changes all around for WHM.

Also I doubt they'd have anything requiring sleep. BEC you'd then have to bring a WHM/BLM, so that's out of the question.

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Sleep doesn't even add value to low-level dungeons, though, and SE should probably have realized that by now. Players who come from MMOs where crowd control is powerful usually assume that they are expected to sleep adds while the group focuses down single mobs, but once they realize that it's totally unnecessary and makes things take longer, they drop it and never look back.

Also, it's been a long time since I tried to sleep anything, but aren't most or all of the high-level instanced mobs outright immune to sleep spells? I think players would be complaining more about these skills if we hadn't all mostly forgotten that they even exist....

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Sleep doesn't even add value to low-level dungeons, though, and SE should probably have realized that by now. Players who come from MMOs where crowd control is powerful usually assume that they are expected to sleep adds while the group focuses down single mobs, but once they realize that it's totally unnecessary and makes things take longer, they drop it and never look back.

Also, it's been a long time since I tried to sleep anything, but aren't most or all of the high-level instanced mobs outright immune to sleep spells? I think players would be complaining more about these skills if we hadn't all mostly forgotten that they even exist....

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Not really, actually... well at least in the old level 50 "endgame" stuff. If you had a blm in the party it used to be a speed running tactic to gather mobs, run to the boss wall, sleepga then pull the boss and gate them outside the wall. Then they started adding key drops in some dungeons like Brayflox HM comes to mind, now 60+ you have the walls where you have to kill everything before you proceed so... yeah... sleep's pretty useless. Funny thing is I am pretty sure BLMs still have sleep too. =p