(Un)Official Arcanist/Summmoner Feedback Thread

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so please watch your tone

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clarity is threatening isn't it?

especially if it's against your own opinion.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

＠Tertatos


The problem is every ranged DPS class a reliable area attack that hits all targets except summoner.

Black Mage - Blizzard II, Fire II, Flare
Bard - Quick Knock (although its a cone), Rain of Death, Wide Volley
Summoner - .....

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Shadowflare?... Hits all targets plus reliably slows?...

I am currently on Goblin server and play a summoner main. Bane has always had an issue with the tooltip. I can see a cap of five mobs being reasonable. But in comparison to black mages , summoner's aoe is not evenly remotely comparible in end-game equal gear. It was quite strong in mid gear range (and comparable) ie. AK type instance. But with almost full ilvl 90 gear, comparing the aoe dmg of a black mage in similar gear to myself , its not even close; not to mention if I didn't have a bard i'd be out of mana every fight.

As a summoner you actually have to plan your mana conservation throughout the entire phase of every fight in a instance like coil. The BLM's can go willy nilly. Enough about bane though. Though I'd love to have it fixed, as well as pets benefitting from stats and potions. My real issue right now, you have a DoT based class, with a complicated rotation (in comparison to something like blm, dragoon, etc.) and you make it way harder by letting DoT abilities refreshed with sub 5 seconds remaining bug out and not refresh the duration of the dot. I cant tell you how many times I've gone to reload my bio 2 or miasma and it not take effect because of this. It should have been fixed before we even got to launch; let alone still being an issue months later. I was the first lvl 50 on my server (Goblin) and have been dealing with these issues with summoner since day one.
Cheers,

Baliso

I am glad to see that after months someone is finally addressing (one) of the issues; however, guess which set of gear i'm starting to use my myth on now. that's right. BLM. because you're removing my choice of caster class as a end-game maximize.

Traditionally a Summoner weapon is a staff. Is there any plans to accommodate this in Final Fantasy XIV, as currently a Summoner can only equip Arcanist tomes, as far as I can see. I'd really love to have homage paid to the traditional Summoner...

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Originally Posted by Baliso

My real issue right now, you have a DoT based class, with a complicated rotation (in comparison to something like blm, dragoon, etc.) and you make it way harder by letting DoT abilities refreshed with sub 5 seconds remaining bug out and not refresh the duration of the dot. I cant tell you how many times I've gone to reload my bio 2 or miasma and it not take effect because of this. It should have been fixed before we even got to launch; let alone still being an issue months later. I was the first lvl 50 on my server (Goblin) and have been dealing with these issues with summoner since day one.
Cheers,

Baliso

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There is no issue with refreshing DoTs that are close to expiring, the issue you are experiencing is trying to refresh a DoT that was buffed with an unbuffed version. The game is designed so you cannot override buffs or debuffs with less powerful versions of them.

I have a feeling after this we're gonna see less and less SMN. Oh well, that's fine...I'll never stop playing it...:/ Although they should make it hit at least 5 mobs. 3 is too little >.<

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Originally Posted by Eltaire

Traditionally a Summoner weapon is a staff. Is there any plans to accommodate this in Final Fantasy XIV, as currently a Summoner can only equip Arcanist tomes, as far as I can see. I'd really love to have homage paid to the traditional Summoner...

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What no the fact they use books is the coolest thing about them, its why I chose them initially. BLM already have staffs. I love my ACN books, especially the Ifrit one >_>

I do wish I wouldn't magically acquire a wooden staff when I LB though

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Originally Posted by yumeyume

Summoner class needs a better Limit Break.

(1) I don't know where I get the cane that do the Limit Break - The cane has nothing to do with summoner so far.

(2) It would be better if we can summon our pet to do a big Limit Break.

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Astral Flow, yes please!!

The most annoying thing about Summoner is the fact that when Multiple Summoner are around and we all target the same add/boss, sometimes I lose track of my DoT's; a Star, a outline, something that can indicate mine.

Pets - I would like more type of Pet and the ability to Summon more at 1 time at a time.

Summoner's Companion - While the Chocobo is Awesome, I find it odd to the extent that a SMN/ARN should have their very own Companion, This could be were we talk about size, role, and type. I summoner a Clone of my self, LOL, and throw rotation energy at my enemies, BIG LOL.

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Originally Posted by FrionielHope

What no the fact they use books is the coolest thing about them, its why I chose them initially. BLM already have staffs. I love my ACN books, especially the Ifrit one >_>

I do wish I wouldn't magically acquire a wooden staff when I LB though

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Why not accommodate both?

You only need one hand to wield a tome. Why can't the two handed SMN weapon be a staff? :D

Also, I think it would be nice if the interior of the tomes (i.e. the pages) had different designs, as opposed to the same lines and circles in all of them.

This is a damned joke. Summoner does not have reliable AoE past 4 targets, which is damn near everything and everywhere with groups that have gear. Have you seen the mana cost on Tri-Disaster/S.Flare/Misama II??? One and done is the best way to describe those abilities. WITH swiftcast, it takes ~6s just to get the 3 DoT's up to spread. Spreading them eats an Aether charge, which entails timing and all that, yada yada. Taking the full AoE rotation of Shadow Flare, 3 DoT's, Miasma II, Contagion, Bane ...This is the LONGEST ramp up time in the game for AoE across all classes, and now we learn it is PURPOSELY limited because it CAN do more damage if those DoT's actually tick for duration than a BLM/BRD..???? !?!?!?!??!?! Call me old fashioned but I always believed the PURPOSE of ramp up damage was so that once it finally got going it overtook burst damage long term. Casting Tri-Disaster/Miasma II repeatedly is a disaster on anything that is going to survive longer than trash (Bosses).

I'm too lazy to turn back a page, but please, consider the overall efficiency at which we can utilize our so-called reliable AoE. Mana is tight enough that to simply Multi-DoT (Ie Hard casting the 3 DoT's instead of spreading with Bane) as little as ONE extra target requires using elixir level consumables or Energy Drain to offset it, and you want to even CONSIDER using Tri-Disaster in a semi-spam fashion..? Just completely baffling. And no intelligent raid leader is ever going to tell a bard to sing the mana song so a SMN can spam Tri-Disaster, don't even start with that line of drivel.

TL;DR - This target limitation is disappointing and an unwarranted "working as intended". If you want AoE limited to 4 targets (Initial DoT's + 3 spread to), then a universal target limit (maximum) needs to be applied across the board. Otherwise I find that the stringent limitations on what we're ACTUALLY capable of in REAL WORLD scenarios relative to comparable classes put us at a noticeable unwarranted disadvantage in heavy AoE situations. The AoE ramp up time needs to be re-evaluated as well as the many issues facing Tri-Disaster/Miasma II (Exorbitant Mana Cost/HORRIFIC damage to name the front runners) if Bane is to remain as it currently stands.

As an aside, I am totally fine with the way Summoner works with its pet aside from how bad the pet looks (and doesn't scale with food/possibly materia, but that's another story). My reasoning is fairly simple: In every final fantasy game over the years for the console our summons required tremendous amounts of MP to actually utilize. There was literally no way to use them the majority of the time (w/o consumables of course) except on bosses.

Currently, the pet's big attack has a long CD but does damage fitting the above category. If the graphics on it could be improved to something more... non-craptastic I'd be happy as pie in terms of pet vs me balance.

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Originally Posted by RegentP

The most annoying thing about Summoner is the fact that when Multiple Summoner are around and we all target the same add/boss, sometimes I lose track of my DoT's; a Star, a outline, something that can indicate mine.

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They fixed this.

All personal debuffs are always on the left.

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

This is a damned joke. Summoner does not have reliable AoE past 4 targets, which is damn near everything and everywhere with groups that have gear. Have you seen the mana cost on Tri-Disaster/S.Flare/Misama II??? One and done is the best way to describe those abilities.

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Is this a joke?

Because I'm in 7 pieces of iLVL 90 gear, on turn 5, and we have reliable AoE past 4 targets. You won't be using Tri-Disaster in any situation that you won't be having Ballad, anyways. If there's 3, or less, targets it's better to Ruin. 4 or more, and you probably have a BRD(WP speed runs/turn 4), and they will be using Ballad anyways.

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

WITH swiftcast, it takes ~6s just to get the 3 DoT's up to spread. Spreading them eats an Aether charge, which entails timing and all that, yada yada. Taking the full AoE rotation of Shadow Flare, 3 DoT's, Miasma II, Contagion, Bane ...This is the LONGEST ramp up time in the game for AoE across all classes, and now we learn it is PURPOSELY limited because it CAN do more damage if those DoT's actually tick for duration than a BLM/BRD..???? !?!?!?!??!?! Call me old fashioned but I always believed the PURPOSE of ramp up damage was so that once it finally got going it overtook burst damage long term. Casting Tri-Disaster/Miasma II repeatedly is a disaster on anything that is going to survive longer than trash (Bosses).

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So why are you doing that? Have you even done WP speed runs? There's plenty of time to do what you need to do.

Also, it's not that it "can." It's that it "will."

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

I'm too lazy to turn back a page, but please, consider the overall efficiency at which we can utilize our so-called reliable AoE. Mana is tight enough that to simply Multi-DoT (Ie Hard casting the 3 DoT's instead of spreading with Bane) as little as ONE extra target requires using elixir level consumables or Energy Drain to offset it, and you want to even CONSIDER using Tri-Disaster in a semi-spam fashion..? Just completely baffling. And no intelligent raid leader is ever going to tell a bard to sing the mana song so a SMN can spam Tri-Disaster, don't even start with that line of drivel.

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This is wrong on so many levels. Yes, we have to worry about MP. Yes, we do have MP problems.

Not in the scenarios we're talking about.

No, a BRD doesn't sing just for us.

They sing when PLDs/WHMs need mana, and that's always about when I need it--Without popping a potion.

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

TL;DR - This target limitation is disappointing and an unwarranted "working as intended". If you want AoE limited to 4 targets (Initial DoT's + 3 spread to), then a universal target limit (maximum) needs to be applied across the board. Otherwise I find that the stringent limitations on what we're ACTUALLY capable of in REAL WORLD scenarios relative to comparable classes put us at a noticeable unwarranted disadvantage in heavy AoE situations. The AoE ramp up time needs to be re-evaluated as well as the many issues facing Tri-Disaster/Miasma II (Exorbitant Mana Cost/HORRIFIC damage to name the front runners) if Bane is to remain as it currently stands.

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Is this a joke? The target limitation is there so that we aren't the top DPS ST, the absolute kings/queens of 2-4 targets, and top DPS AoE.

We can't be perfect everywhere, and we aren't as far behind on 5+ targets as you think.

Tri-disaster can't have the damage buffed, because, you know, it's also a CC. Miasma II is fine at 70 potency(20 up front), because it also offers disease which has a real-world practical use.

Not to mention you don't even mention the slow on Shadow Flare, which is immensely useful(And, yes, in WP as well).





I'm sorry, Spellbinder, but not all feedback is good. It has to be intelligent, non-kneejerk reaction feedback, and must absolutely not use sensationalism or hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

They fixed this.

All personal debuffs are always on the left.

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And what a joyous day it was. Now if they can just fix the debuff limit for the larger FATE targets...

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Also, from what I have observed, Bane resetting a Contagion DoT has been fixed.
They knew about it from my thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...5-proc-chance.

And I haven't noticed it since that last bigger hotfix patch.

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Also, on a sidenote, despite my previous post, I can confirm the CONTAGION/BANE bug still exists.

I ran a few AKs last night and it definitely can still reset the timer with the 15% chance.

At least it's "Accepted."

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

And what a joyous day it was. Now if they can just fix the debuff limit for the larger FATE targets...

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Which they refused to acknowledged my 2 threads about.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ially-24-mans.
"Moved due to insufficient information."

Riiiiiight.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-mob-can-have.

GM moved it to "Not a bug report" and didn't tell me where to properly post it.

Our only other re-course is this thread that I mentioned earlier:

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Originally Posted by Kevee

It's an old thread they moved due to "insufficient information."

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...less-in-24mans

Post here instead.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Is this a joke? The target limitation is there so that we aren't the top DPS ST, the absolute kings/queens of 2-4 targets, and top DPS AoE.

We can't be perfect everywhere, and we aren't as far behind on 5+ targets as you think.

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Still don't see how this would be unbalanced. 5 yalms is an incredibly small radius and we have to use a stack of aetherflow for it (not to mention it has its own cd), and the main purpose of it is to spread our dots to a group of trash mobs-- whether it's just trash or a boss's adds.

How would it make us king when BLM can still double flare in the time it would take to set-up our dots and bane once? They also have access to infinite mana at the penalty of a much shorter downtime, while we have to wait an entire minute for aetherflow just to refresh our stacks & get ~800 mp back. There's literally no penalty to using flare besides ~10 seconds of downtime (not counting that they can just convert / use a potion / transpose & swiftcast bliz 3, etc, to have even less downtime).

I'm not saying BLM will always do more DPS than summoner, but it's really stupid to make a summoner have skills that are designed for AoE yet are limited to only 3 other targets-- especially in a DoT form of a damage, compared to the BLM's near-instant burst that requires no setup time and only a few seconds of down time if they have to transpose. We already are limited to a 5-yalm radius that it can spread from in the first place, what is so wrong with letting it spread to everything in that small-ass radius? A BLM's fire 2 & flare can do it but bane can't? Where's the logic there?

And Shadow flare doesn't even come close to compare-- you have to make sure the mobs STAY in the circle AND it doesn't deal any kind of "burst" damage whatsoever. If anything it's an extra slow utility along with an additional DoT. With flare or fire 2, you just target whats in the center and bam you automatically get the easy-mode "hit everything around it within 5 yalms" burst for little to no penalty.

I thought blm was supposed to have the advantage on single target dps? now it's aoe too? (i had always thought bane was just bugged initially)

So summoner can't be king of everything, but BLM can?

Right, that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Still don't see how this would be unbalanced. 5 yalms is an incredibly small radius and we have to use a stack of aetherflow for it (not to mention it has its own cd), and the main purpose of it is to spread our dots to a group of trash mobs-- whether it's just trash or a boss's adds.

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5 yalms isn't small enough that it won't spread to what you need to spread it to.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

How would it make us king when BLM can still double flare in the time it would take to set-up our dots and bane once? They also have access to infinite mana at the penalty of a much shorter downtime, while we have to wait an entire minute for aetherflow just to refresh our stacks & get ~800 mp back. There's literally no penalty to using flare besides ~10 seconds of downtime (not counting that they can just convert / use a potion / transpose & swiftcast bliz 3, etc, to have even less downtime).

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Because double flare isn't functionally relevant and uses two CDs? It's a gimmick specifically assosciated with big trash pulls.
Swiftcast bliz 3? What? You do know Flare has a 4 second cast, right? It sounds, to me, like you've never even learned how other classes play, or function. If you swiftcast Bliz 3, you have no Swiftcast for Flare and spent 8 seconds casting it twice. I mean, wat?

Oh, you Flare->Convert->Swiftcast+Flare->transpose+Pot? Well, first, you're only in UI1 right now. Second, you have to cast Bliz3 before you even get UI3, and that means it could take up to 6 seconds before you get enough MP back to go back to AF. Third, that's at least 6.5s~ or so. Not 4. Not "near-instant." Oh, you did Fire III -> Fire II until low, then this? Okay. Convert is a 3 minute CD. Let me pop Raging Strikes on the next pack and still not be as far behind as you think we are, or how about Rouse+Spur+Enkindle+Pet AoE as well? Which, you know, hits pretty hard. Enkindle is 900-1000 non-crit. Pet AoE will be ~500. Rouse is 60 seconds, Spur is 120. Yes, SMN is behind BLM on 5+ targets. It's not as far behind as you think it is. If Bane hit every target, SMN would be the king/queen of everything.

And, the thing is, as a SMN we just continue doing what we do. BLM has a cycle of low/high.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

I'm not saying BLM will always do more DPS than summoner, but it's really stupid to make a summoner have skills that are designed for AoE yet are limited to only 3 other targets-- especially in a DoT form of a damage, compared to the BLM's near-instant burst that requires no setup time and only a few seconds of down time if they have to transpose. We already are limited to a 5-yalm radius that it can spread from in the first place, what is so wrong with letting it spread to everything in that small-ass radius? A BLM's fire 2 & flare can do it but bane can't? Where's the logic there?

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It's not stupid. We would be the quintessential kings/queens of everything. It's not near-instant. It's not a few seconds of downtime.

The logic is that we would be as far ahead for 5+ targets as we are 2-4. In fact, we would be FURTHER ahead because we would be using Tri-Disaster instead of Ruin.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

And Shadow flare doesn't even come close to compare-- you have to make sure the mobs STAY in the circle AND it doesn't deal any kind of "burst" damage whatsoever. If anything it's an extra slow utility along with an additional DoT. With flare or fire 2, you just target whats in the center and bam you automatically get the easy-mode "hit everything around it within 5 yalms" burst for little to no penalty.

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Okay, and when are the mobs not going to stay in the huge circle?

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

I thought blm was supposed to have the advantage on single target dps? now it's aoe too? (i had always thought bane was just bugged initially)

So summoner can't be king of everything, but BLM can?

Right, that makes sense.

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BLM isn't the king/queen of everything.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

5 yalms isn't small enough that it won't spread to what you need to spread it to.

Because double flare isn't functionally relevant and uses two CDs? It's a gimmick specifically assosciated with big trash pulls.
Swiftcast bliz 3? What? You do know Flare has a 4 second cast, right? It sounds, to me, like you've never even learned how other classes play, or function.

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Actually, I have. I have a 50 BLM with relic and I know that when you transpose after 1 flare (because you can't always convert or use an MP potion, I don't know if you're aware of this...) the MP gain is slow and trying to normally cast bliz 3 is slower since you're in umbral ice. Sometimes there might be a situation you want to kill the adds and then quickly focus the boss-- the adds don't always start stacked together in a 5 yalm radius, so you may opt not to swiftcast the flare. Or maybe you have to move sooner than you think after you transpose.

It was just a random example of how you could lower the downtime after flare.

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And, the thing is, as a SMN we just continue doing what we do. BLM has a cycle of low/high.

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I think you mean high/high

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It's not stupid. We would be the quintessential kings of everything. It's not near-instant. It's not a few seconds of downtime.

The logic is that we would be as far ahead for 5+ targets as we are 2-4. In fact, we would be FURTHER ahead because we would be using Tri-Disaster instead of Ruin.

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Not sure what you're talking about here because fire 2 spam + flare will already beat any possible combo we use on 2-4 targets (especially if there's more), and in a shorter time frame. Explain maybe?

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Okay, and when are the mobs not going to stay in the huge circle?

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Easy, whenever one of the 5+ enemies gets hit by one or two aoes. The tank can't hold hate on everything in a large group very easily or very quickly, and often I have to literally run in the middle of my own shadow flare because I know that the second I bane those aggro lines are going to change to me. And many times I play with a BLM or a bard there is pretty much a guarantee that a few of the targets will run out of the circle.

Or, sometimes the tank simply has to move out of the circle because he has to avoid getting hit by something. Or a situation changes where he has to grab a certain target for some reason. Unless your DPS sucks horribly you will be used to the mobs running out of shadow flare the second you hit bane / thunder on a bunch of things. OH, almost forgot the countless times the healer happens to pull aggro on at least some them (it's hard to keep a tank alive in a large group without healing him, you see).

I can think of more situations if you like.

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BLM isn't the king of everything.

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I agree, but right now they are easily beating us in every form of AoE DPS-- which I thought was supposed to be summoner's specialty.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Actually, I have. I have a 50 BLM with relic and I know that when you transpose after 1 flare (because you can't always convert or use an MP potion, I don't know if you're aware of this...) the MP gain is slow and trying to normally cast bliz 3 is slower since you're in umbral ice. Sometimes there might be a situation you want to kill the adds and then quickly focus the boss-- the adds don't always start stacked together in a 5 yalm radius, so you may opt not to swiftcast the flare. Or maybe you have to move sooner than you think after you transpose.

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Having a class at 50 with a relic means nothing.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but if you don't have Convert/MP potion, you shouldn't be using Flare.

Such as? Don't list hypothetical situations. If they're not in a 5-yalm radius, you most likely can't AoE them either.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

It was just a random example of how you could lower the downtime after flare.

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Lowering the downtime means nothing when you spent 4 seconds casting it.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

I think you mean high/high

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No. BLM has a period of high DPS(AF), and a period of low DPS(UI). UI is shorter than AF, so it's not quite even, but you are most certainly not doing anywhere near AF damage in UI.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Not sure what you're talking about here because fire 2 spam + flare will already beat any possible combo we use on 2-4 targets (especially if there's more), and in a shorter time frame. Explain maybe?

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Uh, no? 3 DoTs is 105 Pot + Shadow Flare(37.5), by themselves, is almost equal to what you can do. Then you use Miasma II(20 up front) and 10 DoT and we're equal. Then, while all of our DoTs are going, we're using Thunder/Ruin/Tri-Disaster to make us go even higher. I would say we're higher at Miasma II, but the application time for the DoTs makes up for BLM needing to use Fire III/Blizzard III.

And then you include the pet.

This is only an AoE scenario, too.

Turn 1 no one can match SMN, at all, period. 2 Spread out targets? Okay, let me DoT them both.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Easy, whenever one of the 5+ enemies gets hit by one or two aoes. The tank can't hold hate on everything in a large group very easily or very quickly, and often I have to literally run in the middle of my own shadow flare because I know that the second I bane those aggro lines are going to change to me. And many times I play with a BLM or a bard there is pretty much a guarantee that a few of the targets will run out of the circle.

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Easy? What?

First, yes the tank can.

Second, why aren't you in melee anyways?

If everyone is competent then they will stay in the BRD/SMN circles.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Or, sometimes the tank simply has to move out of the circle because he has to avoid getting hit by something. Or a situation changes where he has to grab a certain target for some reason. Unless your DPS sucks horribly you will be used to the mobs running out of shadow flare the second you hit bane / thunder on a bunch of things. OH, almost forgot the countless times the healer happens to pull aggro on at least some them (it's hard to keep a tank alive in a large group without healing him, you see).

I can think of more situations if you like.

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Avoid getting hit..by what? Grab a certain target..for what reason?
They won't be running out because I stand in melee. You know, you kind of have ot for Miasma II, not to mention mobs running all over the place is bad for everyone.

It's not hard. Healer won't pull aggro if the tank knows what he's doing, and healer will be in melee anyways for holy(WHM) or Miasma II(SCH). Not to mention healers will have an easier time due to the slow on Shadow Flare, and Disease from Miasma II.

Stop "thinking" of things and post real-world scenarios. "B-B-But Kevee! If I queue in the DF, these things happen!"

Yes, that's what happens when you go in an un-coordinated pug with no gear standard.

Good thing 8-~13 minute WP speed runs don't happen in pugs, right?

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

I agree, but right now they are easily beating us in every form of AoE DPS-- which I thought was supposed to be summoner's specialty.

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lolno

Increase the damage output for ruin 2 since it costs more.

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Originally Posted by Hollow_Tears

Increase the damage output for ruin 2 since it costs more.

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What? No >.>

Anyway Kevee though we are the kings of 2-4 the point is at high (I actually don't know how high would be a realistic cap for this) numbers of targets, even with bane spreading to all targets our single target advantage will go to moot.

My point was never that we need bane spreading, but the justification the CM gave on how different classes have different roles and bullcrap about BLM AoE.

BLM already has the huge advantage of being resource independent, and as far as I'm concerned they are on equal footing on 1 target fights.

We do scale extremely well with cleave but

1. either only with manasong up or
2. can bane to multitarget

Because we will oom.

I don't think zero cap bane will completely obliterate other classes, nor do I think not having it will completely cripple our AoE.

Its just depressing it didn't swing the other way.

Thanks, I notice that in titan today. How good is Dex for SMN.

I've only been playing the game for 3.5 weeks now, but have done nothing but play an SMN. I still don't have my +1 (1-2 more days!), but I do have full DL and Relic. I pretty much do nothing but WPSR right now to make money, and in my time, I've run with a lot of BLMs.

My most successful groups are usually WAR+SCH+SMN+BLM, and I routinely parse and share parsing results with those BLMs. We routinely do 3 set pulls (and 4 on the final run) and I am having to AoE 8-10 mobs at once. This means I always have to Bane 2-3 times per pull, in order to hit everything. Even with that limitation, I find that I can keep pace with a slightly better equipped BLM (my Relic + DL vs his +1 + DL/Allagan/AF2), all things considered.

Sometimes I can edge them out, barely in the whole run. It isn't until I run with some dudes who have 4+ pieces of AF2/Allagan that they start to pull ahead of me. (still their +1 vs my Relic)

On bosses, I can out-DPS the BLMs who are notably better geared than me. I've only run into a single BLM who can out-DPS me on Bosses, and he is almost perfectly geared now.

What I do find wrong about a lot of posts in this thread, are the following:

1. Tri-Disaster is way underrated, especially in WPSR.
2. You don't need Ballad to keep DPS going, it is more a factor of having good companion AoE DPS and a tank who won't put you into situations where you need to waste mana.
3. You don't need Energy Drain to keep DPSing in long boss fights.

I'm only on BC Turn 2, atm, just started it a couple days ago, and don't yet have an established group. My results in BC may be vastly differently than what I've seen in WPSRs, but I know this: We are not vastly outgunned by BLMs either in AoE DPS or DPS as a whole. If you are, I'd wager that your rotation needs some work.

Yeah, it sucks that we need multiple sets of DoT+Bane to get everything covered. But, I think if Bane hit more than 3 targets, we would quickly become the absolute kings of AoE damage, and there would be very little that BLMs could do that we could not.

Just one question. Why is whm holy stronger than ours. Don forget. Their holy can stun too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

I just wanted to let you know a bit about "Bane" and that we are planning to make adjustments to the action help text.

“Bane” can spread to up to three enemies. We balanced it in this way due to the fact that the action from the Garuda egi extends effect durations to the point where you can maintain close to a 30 second DoT, arcanists can utilize other magic, and pets deal their own damage.

Compared to black mage’s “Fire II,” it’s somewhat inferior as burst damage, but depending on the situation “Bane” can deal more damage, so consider that fact that different situations lend themselves to different jobs.

We apologize that the number of enemies “Bane” spreads to is not written clearly and we will be adjusting this in patch 2.1.

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Totally not fair ! Bane should hit every target just like everyone elses dps !

I love how Kevee is schooling other people on BLM after having been caught not understanding how Astral Fire actually works before.

Kevee you appear to be arguing like you've got hard numbers to backup your one-man crusade as to why this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Frankly I'd love to have a parser that works, but currently to the best of my knowledge (and anyone else's) this doesn't exist for DoT's. Combat log limitations and all that.

And lol... Are you familiar with a "true" WPSR? It sure as hell doesn't involve a summoner. The party is BLM, WHM, PLD, and BRD. The WHM probably out-damages SMN's in these setups as well, nor could you really bring a SMN as the ramp up time is far too long, etc etc. If you're saying DoT's have enough time to tick and therefore "will" out-damage instead of simply "can," please watch a few video's of people running with that party above. DoT's wouldn't tick for even half duration as the mobs would be 1/2 dead by the time everything was fully rolling. The DoT's might have a chance to fully tick if the SMN is the AoE lol... It's that bad.

Please do not misunderstand my stance on mass AoE: It needs caps. Because I lack experience with any other game that's done so, I'm going to cite WoW's way of doing it where one spell could do so much damage, regardless of how many things it was hitting. CURRENTLY this doesn't exist and we have a HUGE discrepancy between "cleave" DPS vs mass AoE. I'm all about classes maintaining flavor in terms of how they accomplish goals, but I draw the line when particular make-ups dwarf everything else by a tremendous margin. In the instance of those WPSR's, they can clear that place almost 5 minutes faster than any other combination.

Frankly our cleave DPS is probably too high. I'd much rather have that reduced in some fashion than this target limit in the name of "fair is fair."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

I love how Kevee is schooling other people on BLM after having been caught not understanding how Astral Fire actually works before.

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I had made an assumption that I thought I remembered, and that was that AF increased the cast time of Fire, and UI increased the cast time of blizzard, which I corrected less than 2 posts later after I went to test if my memory was correct, or not, after someone said, "No, you're wrong."

That had nothing to do with the rotation, it was under the pps calculations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

Kevee you appear to be arguing like you've got hard numbers to backup your one-man crusade as to why this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Frankly I'd love to have a parser that works, but currently to the best of my knowledge (and anyone else's) this doesn't exist for DoT's. Combat log limitations and all that.

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Just look at potency for 2-4 targets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

And lol... Are you familiar with a "true" WPSR? It sure as hell doesn't involve a summoner. The party is BLM, WHM, PLD, and BRD. The WHM probably out-damages SMN's in these setups as well, nor could you really bring a SMN as the ramp up time is far too long, etc etc. If you're saying DoT's have enough time to tick and therefore "will" out-damage instead of simply "can," please watch a few video's of people running with that party above. DoT's wouldn't tick for even half duration as the mobs would be 1/2 dead by the time everything was fully rolling. The DoT's might have a chance to fully tick if the SMN is the AoE lol... It's that bad.

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Uh, yeah? Not once have I said SMN is better on 5+ targets. I have repeatedly stated that it's not. That would only be the case if Bane hit all targets. What I have said is that we're not as far behind as people think we are, and certainly this non-change(it's just a tooltip fix) to Bane doesn't deserve this kind of uproar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

Please do not misunderstand my stance on mass AoE: It needs caps. Because I lack experience with any other game that's done so, I'm going to cite WoW's way of doing it where one spell could do so much damage, regardless of how many things it was hitting. CURRENTLY this doesn't exist and we have a HUGE discrepancy between "cleave" DPS vs mass AoE. I'm all about classes maintaining flavor in terms of how they accomplish goals, but I draw the line when particular make-ups dwarf everything else by a tremendous margin. In the instance of those WPSR's, they can clear that place almost 5 minutes faster than any other combination.

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More like ~3 minutes for fully optimized/geared groups, not including BLM. I'm fine with this. Classes/Jobs have different mechanics, and small differences leading to them being better in very specific situations is fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

Frankly our cleave DPS is probably too high. I'd much rather have that reduced in some fashion than this target limit in the name of "fair is fair."

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Nah, I'd rather be king/queen of cleave and not that far behind for 5+ AoE, since 5+ AoE doesn't have any real purpose. At least, not right now. Even in the future, I've seen way more "cleave" fight mechanics than "5+ target" mechanics over multiple MMOs. This is opinion v. opinion, though, and anecdotal evidence on my part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trihuuger

And lol... Are you familiar with a "true" WPSR? It sure as hell doesn't involve a summoner. The party is BLM, WHM, PLD, and BRD. The WHM probably out-damages SMN's in these setups as well, nor could you really bring a SMN as the ramp up time is far too long, etc etc. If you're saying DoT's have enough time to tick and therefore "will" out-damage instead of simply "can," please watch a few video's of people running with that party above. DoT's wouldn't tick for even half duration as the mobs would be 1/2 dead by the time everything was fully rolling. The DoT's might have a chance to fully tick if the SMN is the AoE lol... It's that bad.

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This, I think is the only legitimate reason why SMN could get an uncapped target Bane and have it legitimized. Right now, in a PLD+WHM+BRD+BLM group, it takes ~25 seconds to down everything. If you swapped out the BLM for an SMN, the only way you could maintain those times is if you had an uncapped Bane, so you could hit 7-10 targets at once. You have just enough time to get the vast majority of your DoT out by teh time everything is dead, if you have a WHM casting Holy. As is, all you can do is apply 90% dot damage to 4 targets, and maybe 40% dot damage to 4 more. This is just sub-par compared to BLM, which hits everything.

But, if you uncapped Bane to make SMN on par with BLM in short term AoE dps, then you'd end up with a situation where SMN can easily out-damage BLM in situations where everything doesn't die in 25 seconds or less.

Plus, it would give SMN a sizable AoE dps advantage before the end-game, where BLM hasn't ramped up in power yet. (mainly lack of Flare)

In the vast majority of situations (sub-9 min WPSRs are NOT the norm by any means), the average WPSR is more in the 10-11 min range, and AoE encounters last long enough that the line between BLM and SMN in those groups is more easily blurred. But, when you only have a 25 second window to do your damage, and you require 5 seconds of ramp-up time followed by 20-25 seconds of DoT time, SMN is simply outclassed by BLM's ability to have peak DPS practically from the start. (after Fire 3 hits)

Sadly, the most potential in WPSRs comes from BRD/WHM combo, and there is finite group comp potential when you HAVE to build around that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

That rotation was with shadowflare (notice the 25*1.5, since it seems to autocrit).

And SMNs actually run out of mana, period, as opposed to BLM.

With more and more targets SMN are more and more gimped in terms of AoE damage, as tri-disaster and miasmaII are completely laughable.

EDIT: also I didn't include in flare. For something ridiculous like 500 potency as the last attack.

I figure that balances having to use blizzard III once.

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I don't run out of MP o.o. Maybe im not maximizing my dps but if I do bio miasma bio 2 fester miasma 2 shadow flare repeat minus shadow flare and than use drain instead of fester I usually have enough time off my Aetherflow timer to top my MP off and if not I can do 2-3 drains in 1 rotation. There isn't to much reason to run outta mp on SMN or SCH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seiko769

I don't run out of MP o.o. Maybe im not maximizing my dps but if I do bio miasma bio 2 fester miasma 2 shadow flare repeat minus shadow flare and than use drain instead of fester I usually have enough time off my Aetherflow timer to top my MP off and if not I can do 2-3 drains in 1 rotation. There isn't to much reason to run outta mp on SMN or SCH

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If you're multidotting more than 3 targets consistently without Bane you will run out of mana without manasong. You may delay it with energy drain, which you sacrifice Fester for, but it will happen.

It's extremely important that groups with summoners in them have tanks that understand this limitation and work with the summoner to encounter it as little as possible.

Isn't the whole point of different classes in the game that they can do different things?

Anyway, my feedback of SMN:

1. Increase Bane effect distance to 10 yalms, and the newly initiated dots start from their original default timespan (even if contagion is active)
2. Remove the Aetherflow requirement for Bane.
3. Make Garuda-Egis Contagion skill a core SMN ability that requires Aetherflow charges, that boosts duration of all active Miasma, Bio II and Bio.
4. Reskill Ifrit-Egi and Garuda-Egi (Tian-Egi is fine) to make them equally viable. Maybe have Ifrit concentrate on melee AoE damage skills and Garuda as ranged damage single target pet?
5. Add another pet that is a buffer/debuffer. Think a damage orientated Selene fae.
6. Make tri-disaster a 1 second cast and either lower mana cost or boost damage.

Other than that I'm happy with the way SMN plays. Sure I thought I was getting a more pet focused class but it's a lot of fun how it is now too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yumeyume

Summoner class needs a better Limit Break.

(1) I don't know where I get the cane that do the Limit Break - The cane has nothing to do with summoner so far.

(2) It would be better if we can summon our pet to do a big Limit Break.

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summoner in here not looks like summoner
the primal egi should've been more important in dmg terms, because its SUMMONER. (as in YUNA in FF X/X-2)
i choose summoner because i like to have primal as my pet. but what i get is some mini primal wanna be, titan egi looks worst,,, what the hell is with that clump of yellow balloon.

and its sad that the primal-egi are not functioning like what i expected!
but i still love my summoner
i hope SE can made summoner class, more summoner like

I disagree on the WoW comparison.

They put that cap in but then immediately realized everyone hated it.

They relaxed the cap so much that people can still easily pull 5-10x AoE dps vs single target (see surv hunters and their 3 million dps).

This is a GOOD thing.

Mass AoE has proven again and again fun for players. What they should do is make it so AoE isn't an afterthought and make everyone's AoEs awesome.

This thread has make me realized that I made a mistake in making SMN my main class. I should have stuck with BLM or WAR. I have come to realized I can't compete against the damage a BLM puts out and as for WAR, I'm just having a blast with it.

It is true what the OP said, as far as using flare vs enkindle. It's just dissappointing. Specially, in a fight where speed is essential. It takes more time to put all the dots and then Fester, than what it takes a BLM to do Fire III > Fire > possible proc > Fire III, keep in mind a blm can keep doing none stop, while a summoner has to wait for aetherflow to be ready in order to use Fester. Not to mention a BLM can use back to back Flare and still get mp back fast enough to go back to a Fire rotation.

For example: BLM and BRD are sought out to do WP because their aeo dmg output is faster than of a SMN. The reason is mainly for what I mentioned above. SMN can't do a lot of dmg at the same speed that a BLM can, not in a short fight.

Can we get Belial-Egi? Make it a lvl 60 (gear wise) quest.

Everyone is completely missing Kevee's point too, btw.

The point is, there has been no change to bane. It works exactly as it has worked before. This is a tooltip change.

So stop raging everywhere. You're making us look bad. You are just as effective as you were last week.

My argument was there is no reason to cap our bane, because it would just put us on equal footing with BLM (which, admittedly, does have the best sustained aoe bar none).

But obviously the devs think otherwise.

Oh well.

Guess you'll have to put your DL gear on your BLM if you want to speedrun WP faster, until the inevitable WP nerf.