People who can't do AOE rotations in 70+ Content

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

Also just to add on your point; how is that fair to the healer as an example?
If the Tank uses no CD's the Healer has to work 5 times as hard.. What if he is tired?
Nobody excuses a healer that had a long day, only uses cure and wipes the party on every boss, well I guess some ppl on this forum would...

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Exactly. Honestly, it's overall unfair on everyone, because I've had tanks who not only used no CD's, but also didn't use AoE's. A tank who doesn't use AoE's is a burden on the party.
If people are defending DPS (and healers) for not using AoE's, then they must also defend tanks who also do not use AoE's.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Exactly. Honestly, it's overall unfair on everyone, because I've had tanks who not only used no CD's, but also didn't use AoE's. A tank who doesn't use AoE's is a burden on the party.
If people are defending DPS for not using AoE's, then they must also defend tanks who also do not use AoE's.

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I watched a GNB tank in Void Ark yesterday (I was running as BRD) use their CDs before pulling, and they usually wore off before they could be used effectively, if at all.

https://media.giphy.com/media/pYI1hSqUdcBiw/giphy.gif

It's one thing to not use CDs. It's another to use them and not make good (or any) use of them, which achieves the same result, at least for the most part. Been a while since I've seen something like this, thankfully. I'm usually the tank or off tank so I usually solve my own problems just by being one. Poor play/lazy play is a thing, but I don't usually see anything of any real significance. That makes it stick out like a sore thumb when it does happen though. If anyone can really feel the strain, it's tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I watched a GNB tank in Void Ark yesterday (I was running as BRD) use their CDs before pulling, and they usually wore off before they could be used effectively, if at all.

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I blame Radovan, please stop giving Gunblades to the undeserving, preserving the legacy of Bozja is not worth this.

And how much you want to bet the people who defend DPS not AoEing mob pulls will also be the same ones who say it's totally valid for a healer to spam Physick/Cure 1/Benefic at later levels? Especially the ones who insist that it procs a free heal/free crit, and thus it's justified? Or the ones who refuse to use Holy and Gravity "because it gets in the way of them healing".

I understand if they're new and need to be taught that not only does it not get in the way of them healing, they have instant healing spells and safety nets that they can apply. It's part of being an effective healer... but I concede that "expecting people to be effective" is a bit much, so I'm sticking to low expectations. But at later levels when you should know better by now? Come on, dude... There comes a point where we stop catering to bad mindsets just because "player is new". Question is where do we draw the line?

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

And yet there is no consequences to someone single target killing.

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They get removed, how is that not a consequence?

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Kicking someone for single targeting mobs is liable to be treated as abuse of the kick function by SE. It's happened to people before.

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Yeah, no. Differences in playstyle. It's allowed

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

This seems like Stockholm syndrome, but it’s also quintessentially FFXIV in the current year. Yoshida pretends that we’re not allowed to do this, but as we can all see in this thread, many people deeply love and appreciate online toxicity. His vision doesn’t matter, yours does. And that’s fine! You can chase everyone else out. Let’s make this into WoW or EQ or the rest.

A problem, though: I (and others) subscribed to Final Fantasy XIV because of Yoshida’s vision. We bought into a lie, because that vision is dead if no one cares about it. FFXIV is not a “friendly community”, it’s not “less toxic than WoW”, and the people do not “welcome new players with open arms”. And only difference between FFXIV and lesser MMOs is that we have a sock puppet (Yoshida) that pretends that things are okay when they really aren’t. It’s good for revenue, but it’s also a complete lie. More scrupulous consumers should avoid giving money to hucksters and liars, but you all clearly enjoy it, so the circus of lies and deceit will continue much to your amusement.

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Imagine thinking that any of what you replied to was toxic. Yikes

And this is what happens when you drop the the skill ceiling, make leveling content ezpz, and focus on the burst window meme at the top of the "ceiling".

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

And this is what happens when you drop the the skill ceiling, make leveling content ezpz, and focus on the burst window meme at the top of the "ceiling".

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Even so, Black Mage still spamming Fire 1 despite they have Fire 4...

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

Even so, Black Mage still spamming Fire 1 despite they have Fire 4...

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Boss is dead, so who cares. Don't be such a try-hard~ :^)

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Boss is dead, so who cares.

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People with standards and principles?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

People with standards and principles?

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It's sarcasm, FireMage... He's saying that's the answer given by the Fire 1 Mages out there. And the issue is, they're right: boss is dead, who cares? Job done, who cares? Zero consequence for them, who cares?

People with standards and principles, yes. But what do they matter? Worst they can do is kick you, they can't force you to play any different or any better, and to kick you they need a majority to agree.

Never posted on the forum before, but here's this

https://i.imgur.com/Gs9NV3F.jpg

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

This seems like Stockholm syndrome, but it’s also quintessentially FFXIV in the current year. Yoshida pretends that we’re not allowed to do this, but as we can all see in this thread, many people deeply love and appreciate online toxicity. His vision doesn’t matter, yours does. And that’s fine! You can chase everyone else out. Let’s make this into WoW or EQ or the rest.

A problem, though: I (and others) subscribed to Final Fantasy XIV because of Yoshida’s vision. We bought into a lie, because that vision is dead if no one cares about it. FFXIV is not a “friendly community”, it’s not “less toxic than WoW”, and the people do not “welcome new players with open arms”. And only difference between FFXIV and lesser MMOs is that we have a sock puppet (Yoshida) that pretends that things are okay when they really aren’t. It’s good for revenue, but it’s also a complete lie. More scrupulous consumers should avoid giving money to hucksters and liars, but you all clearly enjoy it, so the circus of lies and deceit will continue much to your amusement.

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Asking people to do a freaking AoE on repeat prompts this response? jesus christ. Sorry I even said anything, bob.

This type of energy is why I don't bother even trying to correct people most of the time and hit myself with that self flagellation 30 min penalty, dhc into character switch.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

This seems like Stockholm syndrome, but it’s also quintessentially FFXIV in the current year. Yoshida pretends that we’re not allowed to do this, but as we can all see in this thread, many people deeply love and appreciate online toxicity. His vision doesn’t matter, yours does. And that’s fine! You can chase everyone else out. Let’s make this into WoW or EQ or the rest.

A problem, though: I (and others) subscribed to Final Fantasy XIV because of Yoshida’s vision. We bought into a lie, because that vision is dead if no one cares about it. FFXIV is not a “friendly community”, it’s not “less toxic than WoW”, and the people do not “welcome new players with open arms”. And only difference between FFXIV and lesser MMOs is that we have a sock puppet (Yoshida) that pretends that things are okay when they really aren’t. It’s good for revenue, but it’s also a complete lie. More scrupulous consumers should avoid giving money to hucksters and liars, but you all clearly enjoy it, so the circus of lies and deceit will continue much to your amusement.

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It is a friendly community. You just have to read your skills thats basically all, they tell you exactly which combinations to do, what to press after each key and in which situation.

Not wanting to read up, not caring in the slightest clearly, yet going in GROUP contents to waste people’s times is what’s unfriendly to me.

I believe Square-Enix should put in a solo AOE practice mode and then incentivize using it. Battle Square at the Gold Saucer or something similar. Square-Enix doesn't want its players correcting the bad habits of other players in game, so Square-Enix should put some development budget into teaching players to hit their buttons in the right order.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

I believe Square-Enix should put in a solo AOE practice mode and then incentivize using it. Battle Square at the Gold Saucer or something similar. Square-Enix doesn't want its players correcting the bad habits of other players in game, so Square-Enix should put some development budget into teaching players to hit their buttons in the right order.

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You literally just press 2 or 3 buttons in sequence for an AoE combo. There's no need to go overboard with trying to teach players something that's so simple and inherently common knowledge. From my experience, running into players that don't do the bare minimum in late game content is extremely rare and not enough to warrant attention to pour in resources to combat it. It is what it is, either you call them out on it or you don't.

They've also already implemented a compact view of your skills where you can easily see what skills chain to which one in your actions and traits menu.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

It is a friendly community. You just have to read your skills thats basically all, they tell you exactly which combinations to do, what to press after each key and in which situation.

Not wanting to read up, not caring in the slightest clearly, yet going in GROUP contents to waste people’s times is what’s unfriendly to me.

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Tbf there is a certain community or two in the game that still acts like they're in high school most of the time but otherwise it's a chill place yes.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Asking people to do a freaking AoE on repeat prompts this response?

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You did not ask players to please use their AOE rotation. You told them to stop playing the game. That is the difference.

People here know how to use their AOE rotations. The people who need help aren't reading this. This is virtual jousting aimed at fostering a braggadocios gameplay environment. We do not need to lambast new or less-experienced players for our own pleasure. They have enough difficulty with the game as it is. Putting an ambiguous, unsizable conglomerate of players down behind their backs is a low-effort, passive-aggressive self-esteem booster and has no constructive purpose.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

You did not ask players to please use their AOE rotation. You told them to stop playing the game. That is the difference.

People here know how to use their AOE rotations. The people who need help aren't reading this. This is virtual jousting aimed at fostering a braggadocios gameplay environment. We do not need to lambast new or less-experienced players for our own pleasure. They have enough difficulty with the game as it is. Putting an ambiguous, unsizable conglomerate of players down behind their backs is a low-effort, passive-aggressive self-esteem booster and has no constructive purpose.

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Apologism for bads is never a good look

While XIV's community doesnt poop unicorns and rainbows, it isnt toxic like certain other games either.

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Originally Posted by Majatok

I'm going off-topic here, but this thread makes me think of the time when i tried to learn how to play healer. I struggled really bad in dungeons to the point where it just wasn't fun, and i noticed that some tanks didn't use their mitigation at all, so i asked them to do so.

Most responses i got boiled down to this: "this isn't WoW", "you don't pay me sub", "it doesn't matter"
I stopped asking people to use abilities and developed an "only 1 gcd heal per pull" policy because it felt like that people were leeching off me/ expecting me to carry, which reduced my fun a lot.

You would think that playing this way would make me struggle even more, but instead people were using their self-heal and mitigation more frequently without saying anything, which made my experience as a whole way more relaxed and fun. It also made me learn how to be a better healer all around, since i relied more on my ogcd kit.

What's interesting however is that to this day i still get tanks that insist on pulling everything and not use mitigation at all. I often can heal them through, and it's fine, but there were times when i wasn't able to do so and they became extremely passive-aggressive, essentially blaming me for the death.
And every time this happened it left me dumbfounded because i do not understand why someone would play a game that is essentially about cooperation and then NOT be cooperative.

It's the same with this thread, doing aoe instead of single target is a matter of pressing a different button, if you can press one you can press the other. Why would you NOT want to do more dmg? Doing more dmg would help healers and tanks in dungeons tremendously. Why would you be against that?

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Dont forget, healing is too easy... if you're in a static or semi-static at end game with people who know what they're doing, and know most of the games content inside and out. Ive never really had a problem giving advice though. Only a few times have I had someone throw a tantrum and they were pretty horrific players. Most people give and recieve advice well. Oftentimes I think it can be how we put our advice across though. Text isnt always the best for tone.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Apologism for bads is never a good look

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Slagging off people who are still learning isnt a great look either. Due to how job levelling and the speed you can level jobs works, its more than possible to be lv70 in a job and not fully understand how it works. Switching from SMN to SCH was an experience, despite maining WHM. Switching to a shield healer took some practice to get down, often in lv60 content.

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Originally Posted by Majatok

I'm going off-topic here, but this thread makes me think of the time when i tried to learn how to play healer. I struggled really bad in dungeons to the point where it just wasn't fun, and i noticed that some tanks didn't use their mitigation at all, so i asked them to do so.

Most responses i got boiled down to this: "this isn't WoW", "you don't pay me sub", "it doesn't matter"
I stopped asking people to use abilities and developed an "only 1 gcd heal per pull" policy because it felt like that people were leeching off me/ expecting me to carry, which reduced my fun a lot.

You would think that playing this way would make me struggle even more, but instead people were using their self-heal and mitigation more frequently without saying anything, which made my experience as a whole way more relaxed and fun. It also made me learn how to be a better healer all around, since i relied more on my ogcd kit.

What's interesting however is that to this day i still get tanks that insist on pulling everything and not use mitigation at all. I often can heal them through, and it's fine, but there were times when i wasn't able to do so and they became extremely passive-aggressive, essentially blaming me for the death.
And every time this happened it left me dumbfounded because i do not understand why someone would play a game that is essentially about cooperation and then NOT be cooperative.

It's the same with this thread, doing aoe instead of single target is a matter of pressing a different button, if you can press one you can press the other. Why would you NOT want to do more dmg? Doing more dmg would help healers and tanks in dungeons tremendously. Why would you be against that?

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I'm so confused. One of the easiest mmorpgs in terms of dungeons, and you refuse to use more than a single GCD heal per pack, because you're struggling to keep tanks up and that makes you mad? But you're pretending that "Oh no, it's not me, it's the tanks that suck".

You're never going to see these people ever again after 15 minutes, why make yourself angry over nothing? Heal, move on. With how uncommon REALLY bad players are, it's just not worth getting so upset about. It sounds like you're expecting bad behavior, and anything will reinforce that in your mind to the point that you start acting as poorly as the bad players you're imagining do.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

Slagging off people who are still learning isnt a great look either. Due to how job levelling and the speed you can level jobs works, its more than possible to be lv70 in a job and not fully understand how it works. Switching from SMN to SCH was an experience, despite maining WHM. Switching to a shield healer took some practice to get down, often in lv60 content.

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Yikes. Someone didn't read their tooltips

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

You did not ask players to please use their AOE rotation. You told them to stop playing the game. That is the difference.

People here know how to use their AOE rotations. The people who need help aren't reading this. This is virtual jousting aimed at fostering a braggadocios gameplay environment. We do not need to lambast new or less-experienced players for our own pleasure. They have enough difficulty with the game as it is. Putting an ambiguous, unsizable conglomerate of players down behind their backs is a low-effort, passive-aggressive self-esteem booster and has no constructive purpose.

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if you read the very first post in this thread you'll see that they didn't tell people to stop playing the game, they told players to use the singleplayer features instead of sandbagging 3 other people in every dungeon, and yeah you're right people here already know to use them, but it's not like anyone in this thread has actually been arguing about that part, it's been almost entirely about DF randoms not using them

and I don't see how this is supposed to be fostering a "braggadocios gameplay environment" (or "toxicity" in normal person speak) or "lambasting" new players for "pleasure", literally all anyone on this side of the argument wants is for players to have the basic competency required to realize that pressing their multi-target attacks in a multi-target situation may be a good idea

also if anything we should be telling new players specifically about these things, someone in Sastasha <10 hours in is much more likely to improve their playstyle than someone in The Dead Ends 300 hours in.
if someone doesn't tell them, they'll never know, and if you wait too long then they'll never change

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Yikes. Someone didn't read their tooltips

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What??? Why do you need to be like this? like every post I've seen you make has been hostile or belittling to someone. I've been on here for a couple of weeks and youre the only name I know, and thats from wondering what this guys problem is. I gotta say one thing, you're a master of first impressions.

Anyway, I do read my tooltips. My point was that levelling to lv60 on one job that simulaneously levels another job in a completely different role isnt smart design and doesnt help players learn how the co-levelled job works, it actively hinders it. Regen to shield healers is a transition in itself because they use completely different methodologies, so if you switch from one to the other, it takes time for your mind to adapt.

There are various design decisions in XIV that easily lead to players finding themselves on jobs at a higher level that they just havent had the time to master.

Reading tooltips tells you what stuff does, but it doesnt teach you how to play a role, especially rolling into lv60 content. But of course, I'm sure you pick up new jobs and are awesome off the bat, just from reading your tooltips.

Wait, since when do healers need to be able to heal in 60+ dungeons?

People like that are why I won't take dungeons as anything but WAR anymore.
Pull everything with a group that should be able to easily handle it, only to see like, the MCH doing his 123 flips from alaska, and the blm spamming fireIV. And then the ToS is so vague that nobody even wants to say anything because they're afraid of being reported for fOrCinG a pLayStYLe, and lord knows some toxic positivity champ in the group will chime in to be like "it's fiiiiine that the caster isn't aoeing, don't worrryyy about it haha!"
These people made leveling my other tanks such a miserable experience. Would burn through every mitigation on the first pack and it'd still all be alive except for the couple of mobs the dps were single targeting. You don't even have to be amazing or minmaxing, just if you see 3 or more mobs press any aoe at all please.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

What??? Why do you need to be like this? like every post I've seen you make has been hostile or belittling to someone. I've been on here for a couple of weeks and youre the only name I know, and thats from wondering what this guys problem is. I gotta say one thing, you're a master of first impressions.

Anyway, I do read my tooltips. My point was that levelling to lv60 on one job that simulaneously levels another job in a completely different role isnt smart design and doesnt help players learn how the co-levelled job works, it actively hinders it. Regen to shield healers is a transition in itself because they use completely different methodologies, so if you switch from one to the other, it takes time for your mind to adapt.

There are various design decisions in XIV that easily lead to players finding themselves on jobs at a higher level that they just havent had the time to master.

Reading tooltips tells you what stuff does, but it doesnt teach you how to play a role, especially rolling into lv60 content. But of course, I'm sure you pick up new jobs and are awesome off the bat, just from reading your tooltips.

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If you don't have an inkling of how healers work at 60 through multiple instances of passively observing them in content that's a YOU problem

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Wait, since when do healers need to be able to heal in 60+ dungeons?

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You know I've tried that, just forgo healing all together during those dungeons and DPS during mob pulls and my group just kept wiping and called me out for not healing and I said "Oh I'm sorry, I thought healers weren't supposed to heal" and they kicked me out.


Needless to say that little experiment of mine kinda proved how disingenuous and bs that mentality can be that you don't need to heal at all in dungeons. Or probably that the group just sucked in general, can't be my fault now can it? Noo...

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

You know I've tried that, just forgo healing all together during those dungeons and DPS during mob pulls and my group just kept wiping and called me out for not healing and I said "Oh I'm sorry, I thought healers weren't supposed to heal" and they kicked me out.


Needless to say that little experiment of mine kinda proved how disingenuous and bs that mentality can be that you don't need to heal at all in dungeons. Or probably that the group just sucked in general, can't be my fault now can it? Noo...

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The disconnect here is that you shouldn't need to GCD heal in dungeons generally. You have the power to weave healing between DPS spells, so rather than stopping to cast Physick on the tank, you should be using Excogitation, Lustrate, Sacred Soil, Indomitability, Fey Blessing, Summon Seraph, Aetherpact, Whispering Dawn... You don't have all of these right after level 60, but you should at most need an Adlo or 2 if you're struggling.

WHM has less OGCD healing to rely on, so they're a bit of an outlier, but Holy's stun followed by a Regen, followed by another Holy stun will give you a lot of time of no damage. You'll also have Divine Benison, Tetragrammaton, Asylum, and Benediction if you need it. You still shouldn't be standing there spamming Cure or Cure II.

If you do feel like you can't survive without that, you're either not using your cooldowns, or the tank isn't.

That said, some of the leveling dungeons at higher levels have abnormally nasty trash packs. Bardam's Mettle is pretty notorious for having some really painful trash waves before the first boss. The last packs of trash before the final boss of both the Tower of Zot and the Tower of Babil are pretty rough. It's ironic how these dungeons have much nastier trash enemies, and then you fast forward to The Fell Court of Troia and it feels like the trash is actually healing the tank with how little damage they deal (which is kinda true actually if your tank is a WAR).

I remember farming Antitower for one step of the Bozja relic as SCH for the fast queues, a level 60 dungeon, and I quite literally never had to even touch a single healing button. Eos did 100% of the healing that I needed for the trash and the bosses.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The disconnect here is that you shouldn't need to GCD heal in dungeons generally. You have the power to weave healing between DPS spells, so rather than stopping to cast Physick on the tank, you should be using Excogitation, Lustrate, Sacred Soil, Indomitability, Fey Blessing, Summon Seraph, Aetherpact, Whispering Dawn... You don't have all of these right after level 60, but you should at most need an Adlo or 2 if you're struggling.

WHM has less OGCD healing to rely on, so they're a bit of an outlier, but Holy's stun followed by a Regen, followed by another Holy stun will give you a lot of time of no damage. You'll also have Divine Benison, Tetragrammaton, Asylum, and Benediction if you need it. You still shouldn't be standing there spamming Cure or Cure II.

If you do feel like you can't survive without that, you're either not using your cooldowns, or the tank isn't.

That said, some of the leveling dungeons at higher levels have abnormally nasty trash packs. Bardam's Mettle is pretty notorious for having some really painful trash waves before the first boss. The last packs of trash before the final boss of both the Tower of Zot and the Tower of Babil are pretty rough. It's ironic how these dungeons have much nastier trash enemies, and then you fast forward to The Fell Court of Troia and it feels like the trash is actually healing the tank with how little damage they deal (which is kinda true actually if your tank is a WAR).

I remember farming Antitower for one step of the Bozja relic as SCH for the fast queues, a level 60 dungeon, and I quite literally never had to even touch a single healing button. Eos did 100% of the healing that I needed for the trash and the bosses.

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Ohhhh no we are getting a little bit more into this argument now. See this is what Ive been wanting to hear. Not any of these stupid "lol dont need to heal" comments. So case in point, you do need to heal.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Wait, since when do healers need to be able to heal in 60+ dungeons?

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Well, a healer needs to be able to heal about as much as a tank needs to be able to tank in most groups.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

That said, some of the leveling dungeons at higher levels have abnormally nasty trash packs. Bardam's Mettle is pretty notorious for having some really painful trash waves before the first boss. The last packs of trash before the final boss of both the Tower of Zot and the Tower of Babil are pretty rough. It's ironic how these dungeons have much nastier trash enemies, and then you fast forward to The Fell Court of Troia and it feels like the trash is actually healing the tank with how little damage they deal (which is kinda true actually if your tank is a WAR).

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This is literally just to do with the range of ilevel the dungeons are made to accommodate. The ilevel range for a levelling dungeon is much smaller than a max level dungeon, so you effectively are running it close to minimum ilevel, even at the max sync.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

If you don't have an inkling of how healers work at 60 through multiple instances of passively observing them in content that's a YOU problem

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In much the same way as sitting in the passenger seat doesnt teach you how to drive, encountering other healers doesnt teach you how to heal... especially when levelling players are also learning their own jobs, about mechanics etc.

Once again though, like our first exchange on here where you invented some weird narrative about us hating each other on my 2nd post on this forum where I said I'd prefer parses to be kept private... you've invented a weird narrative here too, making a whole bunch of assumptions.

Yeah, I struggled with Scholar after switching from SMN, having my first few groups in Bardams Mettle was rough. But, while I struggled we also didnt wipe and got told I was doing great in my first trials. Although, I think they were just being kind.

Whether I'm personally good or bad at any particular job is besides the point though. I dont think having jobs start at a high level, or multi-level across roles is a particularly helpful design choice when learning jobs.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

In much the same way as sitting in the passenger seat doesnt teach you how to drive, encountering other healers doesnt teach you how to heal... especially when levelling players are also learning their own jobs, about mechanics etc.

Once again though, like our first exchange on here where you invented some weird narrative about us hating each other on my 2nd post on this forum where I said I'd prefer parses to be kept private... you've invented a weird narrative here too, making a whole bunch of assumptions.

Yeah, I struggled with Scholar after switching from SMN, having my first group in Bardams Mettle was rough. But, while I struggled we also didnt wipe and got told I was doing great in my first trials. Although, I think they were just being kind.

Whether I'm personally good or bad at any particular job is besides the point though. I dont think having jobs start at a high level, or multi-level across roles is a particularly helpful design choice when learning jobs.

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Healing in dungeons is several magnitudes easier than driving a car. It is one of those things where you can easily pick up the underlying ideas of what's good and what's not by looking at a healer and using your brain for a few seconds. It's just a numbers game and yet we still have people making their gameplay harder for no reason by only using the worst spells they have. Like cure 1.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Ohhhh no we are getting a little bit more into this argument now. See this is what Ive been wanting to hear. Not any of these stupid "lol dont need to heal" comments. So case in point, you do need to heal.

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I mean, when people say "you don't need to heal," it's moreso exaggerating that all the healing you need to do is done through OGCDs, and not very many of them. It's done to address how little healing is actually required--that good healing means not touching your GCD heals and just spamming your DPS.

I listed off all the tools you have to work with on SCH, but you shouldn't actually need all of them. I don't play SCH at all after ShB, but I'd pre-place Recitation-boosted Excog on the tank then hit them with Aetherpact and I imagine that would be enough in most scenarios. I have more experience wth SGE, so I can give a more detailed example of what I've done to heal dungeons:

Kardia on the tank, pre-pull cast E. Diagnosis on them, and everyone else if time allowed before we engage with the trash wave, then weave Kerachole after some DPS. After 15 seconds passes, I'll heal the tank with Taurochole. That's it. That's usually more than enough for almost every dungeon pull I've ever gone through. If things actually do get messier, I'll use Soteria and/or Haima as needed. If the dungeon level is lower than when Kerachole gets its HoT, I can just use Drocholes instead.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

In much the same way as sitting in the passenger seat doesnt teach you how to drive, encountering other healers doesnt teach you how to heal... especially when levelling players are also learning their own jobs, about mechanics etc.

Once again though, like our first exchange on here where you invented some weird narrative about us hating each other on my 2nd post on this forum where I said I'd prefer parses to be kept private... you've invented a weird narrative here too, making a whole bunch of assumptions.

Yeah, I struggled with Scholar after switching from SMN, having my first few groups in Bardams Mettle was rough. But, while I struggled we also didnt wipe and got told I was doing great in my first trials. Although, I think they were just being kind.

Whether I'm personally good or bad at any particular job is besides the point though. I dont think having jobs start at a high level, or multi-level across roles is a particularly helpful design choice when learning jobs.

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You gave all the information needed, I invented nothing. How does one hit 60 and not pick up some of what other people are doing? Like y'all (royal you) have eyes, right?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You gave all the information needed, I invented nothing. How does one hit 60 and not pick up some of what other people are doing? Like y'all (royal you) have eyes, right?

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And, for the vast majority of people levelling a job for the first time, they are more focused on themselves and the boss rather than random healer/tank/dps.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

And, for the vast majority of people levelling a job for the first time, they are more focused on themselves and the boss rather than random healer/tank/dps.

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I mean walk and chew bubblegum?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

This is literally just to do with the range of ilevel the dungeons are made to accommodate. The ilevel range for a levelling dungeon is much smaller than a max level dungeon, so you effectively are running it close to minimum ilevel, even at the max sync.

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I know why it happens, but that doesn't make it good. Max level dungeons shouldn't have these wide ilvl ranges when leveling dungeons don't. It's bizarre and feels backwards if anything. How is something called "Expert Roulette" the roulette that chooses between what are essentially two of the easiest dungeons in the game? Other than just familiarity due to repetition, why are they some of the most gentle-hitting dungeons in the game? That isn't good design.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I know why it happens, but that doesn't make it good. Max level dungeons shouldn't have these wide ilvl ranges when leveling dungeons don't. It's bizarre and feels backwards if anything. How is something called "Expert Roulette" the roulette that chooses between what are essentially two of the easiest dungeons in the game? Other than just familiarity due to repetition, why are they some of the most gentle-hitting dungeons in the game? That isn't good design.

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Oh, I do fully agree. Dungeons where you don't vastly out-gear them are much more fun. The best time to do max level dungeons are at the start of an expansion where you cannot out-gear them and they are actually threatening.

I also hate the fact expert only has the 2 most recent dungeons, I would prefer it kept everything in it but treat it like other roulettes, you need to have at least 2 dungeons unlocked to use it and it picks from what you have unlocked. At least there would be more variety that way, even if the gear gets synced down.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Oh, I do fully agree. Dungeons where you don't vastly out-gear them are much more fun. The best time to do max level dungeons are at the start of an expansion where you cannot out-gear them and they are actually threatening.

I also hate the fact expert only has the 2 most recent dungeons, I would prefer it kept everything in it but treat it like other roulettes, you need to have at least 2 dungeons unlocked to use it and it picks from what you have unlocked. At least there would be more variety that way, even if the gear gets synced down.

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I'd argue the concept of Expert Roulette vs Level 90 Roulette is no longer necessary. Back when each patch added 2 dungeons, it made sense because you'd end up with a fairly long list of max level dungeons, but since we've gone down to 1 dungeon per patch, I think just having Expert Roulette be the level 90 Roulette makes more sense. What we could do by the time the .3 patch roles around (e.g. 6.3) is split it up then to have 3/3 between Expert and level 90, and then 4/3 respectively by 6.4 and 4/4 by 6.5. It's a little wonky but would feel better in my opinion.

On a separate topic, I'd also like to see 50/60/70/80 split up into 50/60 Roulette and 70/80 Roulette. A big part of the roulettes is trying to ensure that there's a healthy population of players available to help others clear those dungeons for the first time, but each expansion is going to continue pulling on that. The same could be argued for leveling dungeons, trials, alliances, and normal raids. What we might eventually see is a big addition of more roulettes, but daily roulette allowances with some time of added incentive for certain roulettes. Like who's going to do Guildheist roulettes if that consumes 1 allowance? So there'd need to be some more detailed organization of how that plays out.