Hissatsu: Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Ransu

It honestly doesn't and they'd have to lower potency significantly if those skills didn't have a cast time.

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Having played all the other melee jobs, yes...

The cast-bar very much destroy the flow of a melee job.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Having played all the other melee jobs, yes...

The cast-bar very much destroy the flow of a melee job.

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So you want one of the things that makes SAM interesting to go away so it can play exactly like all the other melees? I thought we didn't want jobs to all be the same?

It absolutely does not destroy the flow of the rotation. You build 3 sen and then charge for a big swing. It makes complete sense in the same way you would plant your foot and sort of "wind up" to swing a baseball bat. You're sheathing your sword and winding up for a powerful and fast draw to do big damage.

Saying SAM cast ability destroys the flow is like saying jump for dragoon or mudras for ninja interrupt their flows. It makes no sense.

With dragoon and most other movement abilities, once you use jump, you are stuck with it until you are given control back and you can continue on with your rotation. With sam you can very easily interrupt yourself, especially with a controller, turning what should have been a 1,2,buff,3 rotation into 3,3,...,3.

And given enough times, yeeh, no it's not a satisfying feeling.

That's a player problem not a flow problem. Why are you moving when you know you're about to do a cast? That's like saying BLM should just instant cast everything because you might accidentally interrupt a cast because you can't figure out to keep your thumb off the joystick.

The random cast-bar is a two pronged problem. For 8 buttons the job plays exactly like the other melee jobs and then you are thrown a stutter... A stutter that can be extended by something no other melee roles have to deal with.

Just because it's been a part of SAM since it's release doesn't make it a good design.

Random? What? The entire concept of the job is to build up resources and then dump it into midare...There's nothing random about it and your reasoning is beyond stupid. Should we take mudras away from Ninja's too? Heaven forbid we interrupt your combos for something that differentiates the job from others. We don't want to confuse you after all.

SAM cast is a good design and one that keeps it balanced. Without the cast their potency would have to drop significantly.

Only issue with Mudras for ninja is how you lose out on the cooldown if you fail it, otherwise once you got the ninja rotation down it flows quite nicely. Same could be said for the Dancers step.

The SAM cast bar stands out like a sore thumb.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

The random cast-bar is a two pronged problem. For 8 buttons the job plays exactly like the other melee jobs and then you are thrown a stutter... A stutter that can be extended by something no other melee roles have to deal with.

Just because it's been a part of SAM since it's release doesn't make it a good design.

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Just because you can't grasp something, doesn't make it poor design, especially when the entire class's mechanic revolves around it. You honestly come off as someone that would complain that Dark Souls is poorly designed because it's hard, it's kind of sad honestly.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Only issue with Mudras for ninja is how you lose out on the cooldown if you fail it, otherwise once you got the ninja rotation down it flows quite nicely. Same could be said for the Dancers step.

The SAM cast bar stands out like a sore thumb.

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Ten Chi Jen. That is all.

With slidecasting I can cast midares while doing lightwaves in EW EX 2. No excuse if you can't handle the cast bar

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Only issue with Mudras for ninja is how you lose out on the cooldown if you fail it, otherwise once you got the ninja rotation down it flows quite nicely. Same could be said for the Dancers step.

The SAM cast bar stands out like a sore thumb.

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But by your complaints with SAM, the NIN mudras literally fall into the same situation. You have to stop attacking and cast your mudras which is effectively the same as a cast bar just you're doing mudra combos instead of looking at a cast bar. If anything, messing up mudras due to random server lag not registering a global is more interruptive than a cast bar.

Both mechanics are fine obviously, but your complaint about SAM cast bars make no sense.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Just because you can't grasp something, doesn't make it poor design, especially when the entire class's mechanic revolves around it. You honestly come off as someone that would complain that Dark Souls is poorly designed because it's hard, it's kind of sad honestly.

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While I'm not going to lie that i haven't finished any of the souls games. I have still very much loved them even with some fault they got like DS2 hitboxes being a bit messy and that casting in DS3 wasn't tweaked to deal with the faster combat from bloodborne.

And then there is Demon Souls which was a beacon off a game among the disappointingly easy and linear games that were released during that period, and we almost never got it in the west cause of it's poor reviews in japan...

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Ten Chi Jen. That is all.

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Right... Ten Chi Jen, Suiton into cooldowns.

At no point does it feel like the job stutters because of a randomly placed cast-bar.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

But by your complaints with SAM, the NIN mudras literally fall into the same situation. You have to stop attacking and cast your mudras which is effectively the same as a cast bar just you're doing mudra combos instead of looking at a cast bar. If anything, messing up mudras due to random server lag not registering a global is more interruptive than a cast bar.

Both mechanics are fine obviously, but your complaint about SAM cast bars make no sense.

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You can move while casting mudras.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

But by your complaints with SAM, the NIN mudras literally fall into the same situation. You have to stop attacking and cast your mudras which is effectively the same as a cast bar just you're doing mudra combos instead of looking at a cast bar. If anything, messing up mudras due to random server lag not registering a global is more interruptive than a cast bar.

Both mechanics are fine obviously, but your complaint about SAM cast bars make no sense.

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I agree with this sentiment. The cast bar is ludoconceptually very appropriate for SAM, both with the idea of Samurai centering themselves and attacking with a delay, and with the idea of SAM being a successor to the Mystic Knight job.

I can't really comment on mudras because despite being made integral to the job I think they are also the reason why NIN is a horrible expression of the ninja job fantasy. Whatever shadow-assassin-acrobat flavor the job used to or might have had seems to have been abandoned for a lot of Naruto BS and an excess of elemental magic on a *mid-rage melee* job. Inasmuch as I think that SAM is one of the most creative and elegant implementations of a classic job fantasy in XIV, I think NIN is one of, if not the worst (alongside poor schizoid SCH).

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

You can move while casting mudras.

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And? So what?

Also,

Ability: Ten Chi Jin;
Temporarily converts each of the three mudra into a ninjutsu action. Executing one of these actions will convert the remaining mudra into different ninjutsu actions until all three have been executed or the Ten Chi Jin effect expires.
Duration: 6s
Only ninjutsu available while active. The same ninjutsu cannot be executed twice.
Cannot be executed while under the effect of Kassatsu. Effect ends upon moving.

The cast bars are not randomly placed. Nowhere does it "stutters" and you are lovely proof that just because someone is able to level everything to 90 it doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I agree with this sentiment. The cast bar is ludoconceptually very appropriate for SAM, both with the idea of Samurai centering themselves and attacking with a delay, and with the idea of SAM being a successor to the Mystic Knight job.

I can't really comment on mudras because despite being made integral to the job I think they are also the reason why NIN is a horrible expression of the ninja job fantasy. Whatever shadow-assassin-acrobat flavor the job used to or might have had seems to have been abandoned for a lot of Naruto BS and an excess of elemental magic on a *mid-rage melee* job. Inasmuch as I think that SAM is one of the most creative and elegant implementations of a classic job fantasy in XIV, I think NIN is one of, if not the worst (alongside poor schizoid SCH).

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Ninjutsu is a core part of the ninja fantasy and the hand signs are based off of real hand signs called kuji kiri. Granted in real ninjutsu the nine syllables are used for meditation, but that is generally where it is derived from. In FFXI ninjutsu was a spell cast, but clearly the FFXIV team took a different approach to go for a more recognizable play design with the mudras.

120sec cooldown too, sam is stuck with the stutter in their core rotation.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

120sec cooldown too, sam is stuck with the stutter in their core rotation.

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*sigh* There is no "stutter", but whatever buddy. I'm done dealing with your stupid takes.

I would much rather they would upgrade some of the skills like Shoha into Shoha II instead of being separate buttons.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Ninjutsu is a core part of the ninja fantasy and the hand signs are based off of real hand signs called kuji kiri. Granted in real ninjutsu the nine syllables are used for meditation, but that is generally where it is derived from. In FFXI ninjutsu was a spell cast, but clearly the FFXIV team took a different approach to go for a more recognizable play design with the mudras.

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Kuji Kiri is fine. The mudras are basically spells, and I don't see why of all the jobs Ninja was the one that needed to carry over XI's "suite of elemental magic spells." Ninjutsu could have been refashioned into literally anything--see SAM's focus on wind/ice or MNK's focus on earth/wind/fire. Personally I think NIN should cut Katon, Raiton, and Dota Mekkyaku (and maybe Doton) and lean into water/ice attacks.

What in the actual. SAM's cast bars being a problem? What.... I...

If you wanted to complain about Ten Chi Jin, I'd be right there with you. I feel like that's messy. But SAM is a melee caster and the wind up cast of Midare feels really good.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Having played all the other melee jobs, yes...

The cast-bar very much destroy the flow of a melee job.

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This kind of mentality is why we can't have nice unique jobs anymore. Sigh..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=502gpaH-zNE

Lucy Pyre has made a video about it ^^


Cheers

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Right... Ten Chi Jen, Suiton into cooldowns.

At no point does it feel like the job stutters because of a randomly placed cast-bar.

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I have to stop moving for Ten Chi Jen and if I do move, the rotation is thrown off because I miss the Sulton at the end. It's way more punishing than Midare and has the exact same stipulation of being unable to move but at least all I do with Midare is delay the skill a second or two. You're argument that Midare is some sort of stutter is asinine. I don't even play SAM or NIN and I can tell you, I much prefer SAM's "stutter" to NIN's Ten Chi Jen any day of the week.

https://i.imgflip.com/6bj7aa.jpg

I don't like the removal of Kaiten as much as anyone else. But the writing has been on the wall for a long time. People should have been sticking up for healer and tank mains when their classes were getting simplified into the dirt, but not enough people did and now we're here, with DPS classes getting simplified too. I know some people in here did share in those complaints at the time, but I am willing to bet a good chunk of players were just apathetic if not in agreement with the healer simplification as well as the simplification of other roles like tanks, ranged DPS, and casters. Only for the simplification of everything to finally hit the Melee DPS and NOW suddenly a ton of people care.

Even going by the argument of class flavor. ASTs cards were gutted in the name of balance, and so were the twin sects, both taking lore and job flavor with it. Same goes for DRK with the whole "leaning too far into your arts will hurt you" being neglected with the removal of dark arts and MP not really being a replacement mechanic. Same for SCH losing its Arcanist roots and WHM losing its elemental roots in favor of becoming a bishop. And now people are trying to use class favor as an argument here too when in the devs eyes class flavor doesn't matter over raw balance.

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Originally Posted by KokaSokaLoka

I do think class flavor is an important discussion, lest we just play a game where we tpose and attack an image of a boss. But thank you for putting into hard numbers what I've been thinking. None of the cited reasons from the devs actually solve what they're trying to fix. If CPM is an issue MCH, DRK, GNB, and AST are all sweating. Every person I've talked to who thinks they'll press less buttons has completely forgotten that you'll go from pressing Kaiten to pressing Shinten. The class will be just as busy but without the kenki management because there's no punishment for using it all. It also tells us that they don't plan on adding anything back because that would add more actions, so this is a plain over-simplification of the class.

Same with the crits - if the difference between the highest direct critical hit and the regular hit is so large then the answer was to reduce the potency of midare/ogi namikiri and spread the potency around the kit. Instead they just indirectly nerfed SCH/DRG/DNC and sorta kinda BRD. It feels like they looked at SAM in a vacuum and made changes without thinking about party composition. To be honest, from what I've seen from top logs is that the difference isn't that large. When you see a difference in the amounts of 300-500 dps it's because the higher dps crit an ungodly high amount, like of course the person who crits 70% of their midares and kaeshi setsugekkas is going to do a boatload more damage than the person who crit 20%. That 70% is nigh unattainable, an outlier, and should barely be considered when balancing the class.

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I agree that class flavour is important, but it can also be quite a subjective matter. I am a kaiten enthusiast myself, but I consider it a futile attempt to convince another who happens to be in the oppsing camp. So I opt to go for another angle with a more objective metric to support my argument. Not to mention the action bloat issue was the main cited reason in the liveletter, so I thought to address that as well.

YOU WILL ALL UNGA BUNGA BURST AT TWO MINUTES EVERY FIGHT AND YOU WILL ENJOY IT

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

https://i.imgflip.com/6bj7aa.jpg

I don't like the removal of Kaiten as much as anyone else. But the writing has been on the wall for a long time. People should have been sticking up for healer and tank mains when their classes were getting simplified into the dirt, but nobody did and now we're here, with DPS classes getting simplified too. I know some people in here did share in those complaints at the time, but I am willing to bet a good chunk of players were just apathetic if not in agreement with the healer simplification as well as the simplification of other roles like tanks, ranged DPS, and casters. Only for the simplification of everything to finally hit the Melee DPS and NOW suddenly a ton of people care.

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Consider me somewhat optimistic, but hear this out.
If this display of public upsetness over Kaiten removal is effective, it would give the community some renewed confidence that the job balancing team does indeed listen, and more DPS players would be inclined in joining their voices to the dissatisfied tanks and healers.
I'm not a frequent on the forums, but I don't think the tanks/healers have made this level of noise before? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I have to stop moving for Ten Chi Jen and if I do move, the rotation is thrown off because I miss the Sulton at the end. It's way more punishing than Midare and has the exact same stipulation of being unable to move but at least all I do with Midare is delay the skill a second or two. You're argument that Midare is some sort of stutter is asinine. I don't even play SAM or NIN and I can tell you, I much prefer SAM's "stutter" to NIN's Ten Chi Jen any day of the week.

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Worst part is when the suiton animatiin comes out but you move before the buff is applied, it just feels bad.
Tenchijin effect ending with movement is just not nesessary at this point since they practically force you to do suiton and eat it with meisui (which is actual button bloat as a result of removing flexibility from gameplay). In no scenario you want to do less than 3 mudras in TCJ and preventing movement is just a feel bad restriction. Why not make it so that the TCJ buffs ends upon executing 3 mudras, or by pressing TCJ again (with a 1 sec CD to prevent misfire from spamming) like how you turn off tank stance?

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Originally Posted by Xenon_S

Consider me somewhat optimistic, but hear this out.
If this display of public upsetness over Kaiten removal is effective, it would give the community some renewed confidence that the job balancing team does indeed listen, and more DPS players would be inclined in joining their voices to the dissatisfied tanks and healers.
I'm not a frequent on the forums, but I don't think the tanks/healers have made this level of noise before? Do correct me if I'm wrong.

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-healer-issues
Thread that ran through the entirety of ShB and some of EW. Nothing done.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-quit-healing
Started in ShB, still going, nothing done.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-play-Ultimate
Started in response to very rude and tone-deaf response from director. No apology or any kind of response from dev team.

Constant complaints in-game and out, nothing done. From everything on class design to even outfit design. Devs even said shit like "We hear your feedback and we don't care" (liveletter before EW launch), "If you don't like it just go play Ultimate" (Response to healer question during most recent Q&A), "We're nerfing energy drain because we want healers to focus on healing" (very tone-deaf justification for the ED nerf in patch 5.4 that shows a lack of understanding of healer gameplay), "Scholar does most of the DPS and leaves WHM to do all the healing" (factually incorrect quote from a SB liveletter, the opposite is what actually happened during that expac), and many other examples. Nothing done. The only difference in this case is a role more people care about actually got hit instead of the green babysitter role that only a few fools like myself still care about.
And as for your main point. People are very passive as a whole, and don't usually care about things until they themselves are affected by such. At such times though its often too late to start pushing back, and this is one such case. And even if by some miracle the devs listen most people will be content with just that and won't keep on pushing or realize that other people have complaints... best it will do is break some of the more jaded healer mains out of their depression and get them to start complaining again.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

YOU WILL ALL UNGA BUNGA BURST AT TWO MINUTES EVERY FIGHT AND YOU WILL ENJOY IT

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This bothers me more than the change to SAM specifically. And part of it is due to hardcore players insisting on set rotations and syncing up burst windows, and the devs responding by making fights even more scripted to a timer and moving even more jobs toward 1 or 2 minute burst rotations.

That bores me. I want reactionary gameplay, not a piece of music I have to memorize. I want to actually feel good for making immediate choices, not feel bad for not being perfectly in sync with a bunch of drones. But people treated the game that way and it has become the dominant paradigm.

i must truly give out my deepest condolences to all who are now experiencing a fraction of what playing a healer feels like every expac.
honestly.
nobody deserves such treatment.

Seeing the shoe on the other foot for once does give me a sense of... What's that word again?

Ah yes, schadenfreude.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...15/905/4d6.jpg

When you switch from healer to samurai in endwalker and yoshi p dumbs down samurai

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Originally Posted by Acece

When you switch from healer to samurai in endwalker and yoshi p dumbs down samurai

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Just play Black Mage.

It won't get dumbed down/mutilated unless Yoshi-P develops a sudden case of arthritis in his fingers or something.

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Originally Posted by Acece

When you switch from healer to samurai in endwalker and yoshi p dumbs down samurai

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I'm gonna need you to switch mains, I'm sure you understand :) Thanks!

Next thing you know, they’ll remove MNK’s Form Shift. SAM can function without Hissatsu: Kaiten just as MNK can function without Form Shift, but both are core components of their respective job’s identity. If they're going to blame button bloat, condense actions instead of removing non-issues.

Yoshi P: "We butchered another class. Please look forward to it."

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Originally Posted by SpiralMask

i must truly give out my deepest condolences to all who are now experiencing a fraction of what playing a healer feels like every expac.
honestly.
nobody deserves such treatment.

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And what exactly do you mean by this statement? Even if I am to take it at just face value, I see no benefit to shifting the problematic square back over to healers. We can look at job design changes in general, but I am currently under the impression that this topic pertains to Kaiten; the decision to remove it; possible alternatives, etc. If I am to zoom out, and look at the issue from a bird's eye perspective, the victimhood of the game's healers is not something that should be encouraged to bleed over to the DPS role, and any that already has is too much.

Fact of the matter is that if you continue to play a healer, SAM, or anything else for an entire expansion despite the job/role not meeting your approval, you send the exact opposite message. That is on no one but the players themselves.

If you want to vent, by all means vent; but SE didn't run over anyone's dog trying to chase down a squirrel.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

And what exactly do you mean by this statement? Even if I am to take it at just face value, I see no benefit to shifting the problematic square back over to healers. We can look at job design changes in general, but I am currently under the impression that this topic pertains to Kaiten; the decision to remove it; possible alternatives, etc. If I am to zoom out, and look at the issue from a bird's eye perspective, the victimhood of the game's healers is not something that should be encouraged to bleed over to the DPS role, and any that already has is too much.

Fact of the matter is that if you continue to play a healer, SAM, or anything else for an entire expansion despite the job/role not meeting your approval, you send the exact opposite message. That is on no one but the players themselves.

If you want to vent, by all means vent; but SE didn't run over anyone's dog trying to chase down a squirrel.

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And what happens when no one wants to play healer then? Oh wait...

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Fact of the matter is that if you continue to play a healer, SAM, or anything else for an entire expansion despite the job/role not meeting your approval, you send the exact opposite message. That is on no one but the players themselves.

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Dropping the job because you don't like how it plays doesn't mean anything and doesn't change anything.

My problem is that they said they did it for action bloat. The problem is that there are many others ways they could reduce button bloat without removing Kaiten. Combine Shoha 1 and 2 or Guren and Senei.