Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

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Envoyé par Anvaire

I think in terms of Design and identity it does feel to me like being a summoner, because you do Summon simalcrums of the primals.

In terms of old summoner, i understand why people liked the dots, but that identity shrank over time, and eventually was divorced from the rest of the class. Every attempt that was made to make the dots synergize with the rest fo the kit ultimatly failed and was reworked. There is nothing wrong with a dot class, but being Heavy on dots + heavy on pets / summons didnt really work.

The current summoner identity resolves around evoking the primals and using their essence to fight. Im not sure what you mean by less meaningful in the sense that the entire rotation is a rotation of summons. The only thing i can think you mean is that the arcanum summons appear do stuff then vanish again. While demis sit and pew pew. Having Garuda, ifrit and titan remain would be ideal, but i think the reason they didnt is due to the carbuncle spells.

But if its you want the pets to be more like oG egis, then id rather take this rendition and the demi stystem. Yes they are, merely animations, but id take that and the possibility of a wider reptoire of summons in the future over the old system where we sat on a choice of one or the other.

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed. There is only one case of SQEX ever going back on a rework, and that was Caster bard - and in reality they only removed cast times.

I dont agree that the Summoner lacks identity, its about summoning Simalcrums of primals and infusing their aether into the summoners own spells - I will concede that the summons are mostly animations and people who wanted an actual "pet" would find it unrewarding. But then the alternative is the janky pet ui and a limitation on what summons we can get.

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This is a good explanation of issues with old Summoner.

Every other job has, more or less, a very clear evolution of class identity as it levels.
I have played SMN since 2.0, and even though I enjoyed playing it, there was always that feeling of disconnect between its two kits, DoTs and summoning. Most of this is how it branches off of Arcanist, then has to form it's own identity. As the SMN grew, however, the DoTs felt more and more like something that was just there.

This current identity of SMN feels like it is going in the right direction. Separate buttons were paired down into buttons that change contextually. The kit doesn't feel like two separate jobs fighting for supremacy.
The only real issue that keeps it from feeling complete is a lack of low-level skill progression and a lack of meaningful OGCDs. If they were to change Energy Drain back to a 30 sec cast, make Ruin IV an OGCD, and give us a low-level equivalent of Astral Flow (specifically the 86 trait), then I believe SMN would feel more fulfilling as it progresses.

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Envoyé par mathias-merodach

I'm sorry but... I really do not understand the point you're trying to make with that comparison. Please forgive me if my response is incorrect but I'm going to try: you're bringing up summon usage and when one's were used, ST or AoE, depending on the situation as well as Fester/Painflare interactions. What I would then ask is how is that any different from any other class? I'll use DRG as an example. In an AoE situation, my basic rotation is 3 buttons over the 8 buttons I have for single target. So, to the best of my current understanding of your point, there are two entire combo lines made up of 5 buttons I don't press when I'm in an AoE situation and 3 I do not press when I'm in a ST situation. You use what is most applicable to the situation at hand for the maximum benefit. So, say for example, you have a mob of enemies. You had the single target of Aetherflow or the AoE of Energy Drain. You then used Painflare for the AoE. However, if most of the mobs were wiped, you could then use Fester (which did more damaged with your dots, which was only 2). You were not locked into using one or the other. Another example, lets say there was a particular enemy that needed to be burned down. You used Energy Drain and Fester. It died and you still had a charge and a bunch of enemies alive. Well, now you can use Painflare. You had options and interplay with your abilities. And, you only had -TWO- dots. That is the same number as Paladin. There was just one ability, Tri-disaster, that assisted by applying them both and once and one specifically, Bane, that spread them. I fully acknowledge that's how it felt to you, as well, but for me it made complete sense. You are an Arcanist that, along with Y'mitra, a Conjurer, are reconstructing a lost art with bits and pieces that you are slowly putting together with the only starting position you have being that which you already know: Arcanist magic. Then you go off to try and do a thing without a full understanding of the potential outcomes. That's why both WoL and Y'mitra don't first understand why you fail to attune to Ramuh. Neither of you have a clue that you can cap out your aetheric reserves. It is looking for a way to find a work around that limitation that leads to Trance being discovered.

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It was mainly in response to your statement "you pressed every button during a summoner's rotation" which no you did not, you used whichever rotation was needed be it ST or AOE.

I would like to think that the majority of people who are dissatisfied with new summoner aren't concerned so much with the theme and the "Is it a Summoner?" question, but the actual gameplay aspects that you have to work with every day in game. For myself, I think the new animations and all that are fantastic, I just really wish there were a couple more oGCD skills, or something with the summons where the order you summoned them had an impact in the rotation, anything to add some depth to the puddle we have now.

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Envoyé par SieyaM

It was mainly in response to your statement "you pressed every button during a summoner's rotation" which no you did not, you used whichever rotation was needed be it ST or AOE.

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I will completely admit, upon re-reading, my point was not clear. The meaning I failed to make was that every button had a purpose and was pressed at one point or another -- not that every single one tied into a singular rotation used at all times (Personally, I have had to use Titan's shield a handful of times to save my life in a dungeon. Mistakes were made. XD). I failed to make that distinction. It was also more to facilitate the comparison of ability usage vs Gemshine and Precious Brilliance being taken away by having them function like Astral Flare / Brand of Purgatory while still changing nothing with how it is currently played.

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Envoyé par Anvaire

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed.

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Sunk and failed? Oh boy, what a way to be extremely disrespectful towards people who liked the old SMN.

No, the old SMN didn't "fail", that's just a snarky way to celebrate that which you didn't like is no longer there.

In their own words, the development team reached a wall in further improving the Old SMN which was a class with already lots of aspects and variations to its gameplay. It's easy to understand how in order to further expand upon its current (old) arsenal you'd have to either add more buttons, and god forbid more complexity, or remove traits and skills in order to make room for new ones. Given SE's current stance of catering to the absolute lowest denominator, they not only chose the latter but also went with a complete rework since the problem of adding new abilities would eventually re-emerge with every new expansion, so what better way to solve this by wiping everything clean and starting over? It does make sense.

And by doing so they also had plenty of room to be as creative as possible with the new animations, so much so that they apparently forgot about the gameplay entirely. The end result was the new SMN existing at its most beautiful and horrible state at the same time. Heck, can you even call it a caster anymore when Samurai casts more often than it?

So yeah, they didn't suddently all gather up into a room and said "fuck old SMN I never liked it". There's a lot more layers to it.

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Envoyé par Lilyth

Sunk and failed? Oh boy, what a way to be extremely disrespectful towards people who liked the old SMN.

No, the old SMN didn't "fail", that's just a snarky way to celebrate that which you didn't like is no longer there.

Given SE's current stance of catering to the absolute lowest denominator, they not only chose the latter

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Hypocrite.

Perhaps fans of old SMN would more readily gain support for their cause if they stopped referring to fans of new and true SMN with those sort of phrases.

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Envoyé par WlyemR

there was always that feeling of disconnect between its two kits, DoTs and summoning.

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Not always, no. I would say that was true in 2.x and 5.x, because Aetherflow and by extension Fester (linked to dots) were just oGCDs disconnected from the whole rotation.
In 3.x and 4.x, however, by using Fester, you got Aethertrail Attunement to channel Bahamut's Aether and then to summon him, perfectly linking the importance of dots to summoning. The problem was that in 6.x they decided again to throw away that form of catching Aether to call forth the Primals. If the dots were disconnected before, Aetherflow is in its place now, which ironically goes against the core of the job: gathering Aether to summon.

I like how people here think there is only overcomplicated and braindead. Only two possible variations of job design...

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Envoyé par mathias-merodach

I will completely admit, upon re-reading, my point was not clear. The meaning I failed to make was that every button had a purpose and was pressed at one point or another -- not that every single one tied into a singular rotation used at all times (Personally, I have had to use Titan's shield a handful of times to save my life in a dungeon. Mistakes were made. XD). I failed to make that distinction. It was also more to facilitate the comparison of ability usage vs Gemshine and Precious Brilliance being taken away by having them function like Astral Flare / Brand of Purgatory while still changing nothing with how it is currently played.

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The only reason I can see them remaining as they are, although a player would never really want to do this, is that you can still use Ruin III while having ifrit, titan, or garuda attunement and it will not cancel out your attunement. I cannot imagine a situation where you would want to use Ruin over Gemshine/Brilliance but as of right now it is a possibility. Maybe something about Ifrits cast time being so long and Ruin III being the standard 1.5s or something. Hard to say really.

As someone who's played HW, ShB, and now the EW SMN, I just wish there was a little more to the current iteration. As it stands, Fester is just a generic dps oGCD that I've been cramming 4 of into my DWT while under Searing light and other 60s/120s raid buffs (2 from the FBT energy drain and another 2 from the DWT energy drain). I would like it if it were somehow more tied to the rest of the kit and required more responsibility from the player. It could be a short dot, a personal buff for the next few spells, just something where we aren't mindlessly blowing them all at once. I'd be more in favor of this since the high usage of this skill in DWT phase makes FBT feel lackluster and empty (yeah I know it got potency buffs but I'm not talking about potency here). I'm also disappointed about the removal of the combo mechanic for FBT since it killed the little difference these two Trances once had.

And if they don't want to push SMN too far ahead of RDM, then I think it'd be nice if we could leave RDM as the aoe defensive caster (Magick Barrier) and allow SMN to use their Radiant Aegis to shield individual players. Either for tank busters or mechanics like in P2S where a dps will have to soak damage. We certainly have enough instant casts to make use of it.

I'm also really sad that I can't even leave my OWN spell effects on because Ifrit and Titan summonings are way too bright and hide aoes. Was really hoping for a fix or at least a mention along the lines of "We plan to make adjustments to the primal animations" in the patch notes. If you can magically have your sight unhindered by them then I'm glad you're able to enjoy the smn aesthetic more than a lot of others and I atm. :/

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Envoyé par Anvaire

I think in terms of Design and identity it does feel to me like being a summoner, because you do Summon simalcrums of the primals.

In terms of old summoner, i understand why people liked the dots, but that identity shrank over time, and eventually was divorced from the rest of the class. Every attempt that was made to make the dots synergize with the rest fo the kit ultimatly failed and was reworked. There is nothing wrong with a dot class, but being Heavy on dots + heavy on pets / summons didnt really work.

The current summoner identity resolves around evoking the primals and using their essence to fight. Im not sure what you mean by less meaningful in the sense that the entire rotation is a rotation of summons. The only thing i can think you mean is that the arcanum summons appear do stuff then vanish again. While demis sit and pew pew. Having Garuda, ifrit and titan remain would be ideal, but i think the reason they didnt is due to the carbuncle spells.

But if its you want the pets to be more like oG egis, then id rather take this rendition and the demi stystem. Yes they are, merely animations, but id take that and the possibility of a wider reptoire of summons in the future over the old system where we sat on a choice of one or the other.

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed. There is only one case of SQEX ever going back on a rework, and that was Caster bard - and in reality they only removed cast times.

I dont agree that the Summoner lacks identity, its about summoning Simalcrums of primals and infusing their aether into the summoners own spells - I will concede that the summons are mostly animations and people who wanted an actual "pet" would find it unrewarding. But then the alternative is the janky pet ui and a limitation on what summons we can get.

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No, flinging around spells with a primal image isn't a summoner. That's just a mage.
I'm legitimately tired of trying to explain my argument while people are just going like; But this is a "real summoner!".
I want my Summons to have an actual impact, not go away after having summoned them. Like it feels hollow to see what they've become now, my eyes roll up in my head. It loses it's "charm" (if it had any) real fast. I miss the non-spaced out Carbuncle, though I am grateful it's still around.

It isn't even about wanting the old one back, at all. I just want to feel like I'm not going to fall asleep out of boredom and play my favourite Final Fantasy job in general, thematically and lorewise. But this hollow shell of a job legitimately isn't it, this rework is not a success and it's not even complete to begin with.
Give me my janky pet back because at least it showed some signs of life, give me my Phoenix combo back and give one to Bahamut. Let me feel like I'm an actual summoner and not a generic mage pretending to be one! I want to fight together with my summons and the current state of Demis doesn't even make me feel like I am, should I not have fallen asleep by then. The spells of BLM and RDM feel like they actually make an impact upon usage, none of the current "spells" on ""Summoner"" do right now. I get annoyed by my primals showing up and I hate seeing Garuda even more now. Wish I could legit get rid of her through non-third party means. Which was what the old system allowed me to do.

They could've done an after image or something to solve the "NO EGI!!!!!!!" feature and keep the Carbuncle around, make use of it's headgemstone but they didn't. There's so many ways they could've taken it, but this is legitimately the least amount of effort being put into a job upon it's rework.

The rework shouldn't drive away it's old fans, it should have never happened and they should've looked into meeting both sides equally. Not favour the one side that is now going around harassing the people that liked the older iteration for several reasons, even if it was it having DoTs. Some of us just want to let our voices be heard and not be muffled out because we're apparently in the wrong for wanting what was our favourite or preferred job to be playable again to us.

Can you blame me? I always wanted more people to play the class and teach them, now I'm actively roasting it because it's legit no longer a job nor a class as it practically plays itself or playing with duplo bricks. I can't call them legos because they're way too advanced for what the current state actually is.

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Envoyé par Riusvell

If that's all that you can take away, sure bud. Whatever you believe.
This is what I meant with harassment. People like you who make assumptions about the people that don't like the "job".
There's nothing in my post stating I want complexity, so nice reading comprehension you have there.

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Then please summarize your post, really it seems like you want the terrible pet that you had next to no interaction with back and that had terrible AI to the point that if you didn't try and game the system a little bit you lost out on a huge portion of your DPS. But by all means explain exactly what you want to me. Also don't come here talking about harassment when you're over there talking about lego bricks being too advanced for this and generally talking down about a job and by extension anyone who might be enjoying it.

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Envoyé par Riusvell

No, flinging around spells with a primal image isn't a summoner. That's just a mage.

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That's...literally what a summoner does. "Mage" is a generic, catch all term for magic user, so it can be applied to anyone that uses magic.

The super dramatic naysaying aside, the argument to whether or not this SMN is a "real summoner" isn't super productive. In any one persons eyes, it has always been a "real summoner," whether you are talking about 2.0 all the way to 6.0.
The main issue is job identity as it moved more and more of its systems away from DoT interaction towards pet interaction. The two systems felt more like they were mashed together and less like a cohesive whole.
The perceived complexity of the 5.0 version was mostly due to unaligned job mechanics and instances of pet unresponsiveness, which I feel like the 6.0 version solved.
Is it perfect? No. Is it a better base? Yes. The most talked about issue is lack of actions outside of the main rotation. Bringing Energy Drain back to 30 Sec , making Ruin IV an OGCD, and giving us a low level version of Astral Flow are a few of the ways I believe some of that kinetic flow can be brought back.

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Envoyé par WlyemR

That's...literally what a summoner does. "Mage" is a generic, catch all term for magic user, so it can be applied to anyone that uses magic.

The super dramatic naysaying aside, the argument to whether or not this SMN is a "real summoner" isn't super productive. In any one persons eyes, it has always been a "real summoner," whether you are talking about 2.0 all the way to 6.0.
The main issue is job identity as it moved more and more of its systems away from DoT interaction towards pet interaction. The two systems felt more like they were mashed together and less like a cohesive whole.
The perceived complexity of the 5.0 version was mostly due to unaligned job mechanics and instances of pet unresponsiveness, which I feel like the 6.0 version solved.
Is it perfect? No. Is it a better base? Yes. The most talked about issue is lack of actions outside of the main rotation. Bringing Energy Drain back to 30 Sec , making Ruin IV an OGCD, and giving us a low level version of Astral Flow are a few of the ways I believe some of that kinetic flow can be brought back.

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These are things I am perfectly happy to talk about too. There sure can be more involved in the rotation, and making ruin IV oGCD would be a tremendous help. That is the general issue with this current design, it is a fine base to build on but at this point we should be beyond the base of job and into the finer details.

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Envoyé par WlyemR

That's...literally what a summoner does. "Mage" is a generic, catch all term for magic user, so it can be applied to anyone that uses magic.

The super dramatic naysaying aside, the argument to whether or not this SMN is a "real summoner" isn't super productive. In any one persons eyes, it has always been a "real summoner," whether you are talking about 2.0 all the way to 6.0.
The main issue is job identity as it moved more and more of its systems away from DoT interaction towards pet interaction. The two systems felt more like they were mashed together and less like a cohesive whole.
The perceived complexity of the 5.0 version was mostly due to unaligned job mechanics and instances of pet unresponsiveness, which I feel like the 6.0 version solved.
Is it perfect? No. Is it a better base? Yes. The most talked about issue is lack of actions outside of the main rotation. Bringing Energy Drain back to 30 Sec , making Ruin IV an OGCD, and giving us a low level version of Astral Flow are a few of the ways I believe some of that kinetic flow can be brought back.

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Well with "mage" I meant well, the absolute generic. Not really having outstanding qualities which what would happen if you took away the primals appearing for more than a few seconds.

As I've stated before, it legitimately isn't about the DoTs for me right now. I want to interact more with my summons and have my summons actually make an impact barring messing up me and my party member's vision. Energy drain has to go, together with Fester. If we want to move away from this "NO DOTS!!!!!!!1!!!!" stuff, then get rid of the last remnants of what tied into it or return one to have it make sense at least. And I'm saying that purely because FESTER of all things is still called Fester. It makes absolutely no sense for it to remain lest the job gets a DoT back. (I am talking design/name issues now, not about wanting it to come back. Big distinction here.)

I would make the Demi's OGCDs instead of Ruin IV, so Ruin IV can line up with them, at the very least. Another thing I want to see changed is Phoenix gaining it's combo back and it extending to Bahamut. At least that felt good to use in ShB, ignoring everything else.

Just make it more engaging in general, please. Not any complexity is needed for something to be engaging.
Currently having more enjoyment from playing my most hated role archetype, which people claimed had less gameplay than the job we are currently discussing.
I at least have more to do now, and mind you. I have something that basically boils down to a deficiency that messes up my attention and makes me get bored from things that don't give me any feedback from playing nor give me a feeling of having any form of engagement from what I am playing.

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Envoyé par Riusvell

No, flinging around spells with a primal image isn't a summoner. That's just a mage.
I'm legitimately tired of trying to explain my argument while people are just going like; But this is a "real summoner!".
I want my Summons to have an actual impact, not go away after having summoned them. Like it feels hollow to see what they've become now, my eyes roll up in my head. It loses it's "charm" (if it had any) real fast. I miss the non-spaced out Carbuncle, though I am grateful it's still around.

It isn't even about wanting the old one back, at all. I just want to feel like I'm not going to fall asleep out of boredom and play my favourite Final Fantasy job in general, thematically and lorewise. But this hollow shell of a job legitimately isn't it, this rework is not a success and it's not even complete to begin with.
Give me my janky pet back because at least it showed some signs of life, give me my Phoenix combo back and give one to Bahamut. Let me feel like I'm an actual summoner and not a generic mage pretending to be one! I want to fight together with my summons and the current state of Demis doesn't even make me feel like I am, should I not have fallen asleep by then. The spells of BLM and RDM feel like they actually make an impact upon usage, none of the current "spells" on ""Summoner"" do right now. I get annoyed by my primals showing up and I hate seeing Garuda even more now. Wish I could legit get rid of her through non-third party means. Which was what the old system allowed me to do.

They could've done an after image or something to solve the "NO EGI!!!!!!!" feature and keep the Carbuncle around, make use of it's headgemstone but they didn't. There's so many ways they could've taken it, but this is legitimately the least amount of effort being put into a job upon it's rework.

The rework shouldn't drive away it's old fans, it should have never happened and they should've looked into meeting both sides equally. Not favour the one side that is now going around harassing the people that liked the older iteration for several reasons, even if it was it having DoTs. Some of us just want to let our voices be heard and not be muffled out because we're apparently in the wrong for wanting what was our favourite or preferred job to be playable again to us.

Can you blame me? I always wanted more people to play the class and teach them, now I'm actively roasting it because it's legit no longer a job nor a class as it practically plays itself or playing with duplo bricks. I can't call them legos because they're way too advanced for what the current state actually is.

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So if i understand this correctly. You want summoner's summons to stay on field and operate like pre EW Endwalker, in that you have to maximise imputs to ensure you get enough WW's rather than it be autos and carbuncle, to actually do something other than just quirk at your feet?

SO rather than channel the essence of the Summoner you want the summons to be summons and the summoner to augment said abilities of the summon.

At the moment, putting aside gameplay actuals in leui of lore, summoner acts as both a "summoner" in terms of summoning and an evoker because they are effecitvly using the summons to temper their arsenals with the summons aether.

While what you would rather is the summons manifest, and rather then the interaction being the tempering of the Summoner spells, it is instead synergising between the two so they both feel like a joint endevour?

I can get behind the fantasy that you want, and understand why you wouldnt like this rendition. I do think Phoenix's rotation was given to Titan, so if they made titan stay on the field as a summon and do some sort of demi like rinteraction, with titan countering each spell used? while retaining the 1- combo?

I could see the appeal of that.

I can understand why you are upset, I came with the same worry but ultimately, while not perfect deciced i was ok with the new Design, its by no means perfect but it has grown on me. I really hope that those like you who liked the old summoner can get a class that offers what is now missing, either a dot mage, or an adjustment to the current smn that still retains the core of the rework but ultimately makes the summons feel more like summons. But i really think the dots never really suited smn, it and to an extent Aetherflow slowly were reduced from center of the class to a wierd thing retained from 2.0's rendition. They were just... there. Thats not to say a dot class cannot be well designed and thought out to work. With smn the conflict was always between being dot based and summon based.

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Envoyé par Anvaire

So if i understand this correctly. You want summoner's summons to stay on field and operate like pre EW Endwalker, in that you have to maximise imputs to ensure you get enough WW's rather than it be autos and carbuncle, to actually do something other than just quirk at your feet?

SO rather than channel the essence of the Summoner you want the summons to be summons and the summoner to augment said abilities of the summon.

At the moment, putting aside gameplay actuals in leui of theory, summoner acts as both a "summoner" in terms of summoning and an evoker because they are effecitvly using the summons to temper their arsenals with the summons aether.

While what you would rather is the summons manifest, and rather then the interaction being the tempering of the Summoner spells, it is instead synergising between the two so they both feel like a joint endevour?

I can get behind the fantasy that you want, and understand why you wouldnt like this rendition. I do think Phoenix's rotation was given to Titan, so if they made titan stay on the field as a summon and do some sort of demi like rinteraction, with titan countering each spell used? while retaining the 1- combo?

I could see the appeal of that.

I can understand why you are upset, I came with the same worry but ultimately, while not perfect deciced i was ok with the new Design, its by no means perfect but it has grown on me. I really hope that those like you who liked the old summoner can get a class that offers what is now missing, either a dot mage, or an adjustment to the current smn that still retains the core of the rework but ultimately makes the summons feel more like summons. But i really think the dots never really suited smn, it and to an extent Aetherflow slowly were reduced from center of the class to a wierd thing retained from 2.0's rendition. They were just... there. Thats not to say a dot class cannot be well designed and thought out to work. With smn the conflict was always between being dot based and summon based.

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You're one of the first that actually responds with some understanding. Thank you.
Though my post above shows a reason why I have difficulty with the design as it is right now barring some thematic issues. There is no engagement and it was honestly never about the DoTs (Barring the problem of Aetherflow still being there together with Fester).

I'm praying that they will listen to some of the woes the old playerbase has and meet half way so it has a more solid design and people don't have to feel extremely alienated. So the job becomes more solidified and not unfinished as it is right now.

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Envoyé par Anvaire

So if i understand this correctly. You want summoner's summons to stay on field and operate like pre EW Endwalker, in that you have to maximise imputs to ensure you get enough WW's rather than it be autos and carbuncle, to actually do something other than just quirk at your feet?

SO rather than channel the essence of the Summoner you want the summons to be summons and the summoner to augment said abilities of the summon.

At the moment, putting aside gameplay actuals in leui of lore, summoner acts as both a "summoner" in terms of summoning and an evoker because they are effecitvly using the summons to temper their arsenals with the summons aether.

While what you would rather is the summons manifest, and rather then the interaction being the tempering of the Summoner spells, it is instead synergising between the two so they both feel like a joint endevour?

I can get behind the fantasy that you want, and understand why you wouldnt like this rendition. I do think Phoenix's rotation was given to Titan, so if they made titan stay on the field as a summon and do some sort of demi like rinteraction, with titan countering each spell used? while retaining the 1- combo?

I could see the appeal of that.

I can understand why you are upset, I came with the same worry but ultimately, while not perfect deciced i was ok with the new Design, its by no means perfect but it has grown on me. I really hope that those like you who liked the old summoner can get a class that offers what is now missing, either a dot mage, or an adjustment to the current smn that still retains the core of the rework but ultimately makes the summons feel more like summons. But i really think the dots never really suited smn, it and to an extent Aetherflow slowly were reduced from center of the class to a wierd thing retained from 2.0's rendition. They were just... there. Thats not to say a dot class cannot be well designed and thought out to work. With smn the conflict was always between being dot based and summon based.

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I genuinely applaud this response. While I personally have only grown to dislike SMN more as I have progressed and will, likely, be hitting 90 and never touching it again unless a revert (beyond unlikely I know) or hefty changes, I'm glad that you've been able to take to it. For me, it wasn't about one aspect or another. The dots piqued my interest in the class (because in a strange way I don't understand I hate playing casting classes but love dots), it was the package that kept me playing. The kit, lore, and fantasy, in this instance, were enjoyable where I'm bored to the point of falling asleep while playing casting classes. I've played both RDM and BLM (on an alt), to 70+ and neither have much in the way of appeal. The loss of the one caster dps that got me to even attempt the other two is an incredible blow that's resulted in the same state that I'm in when playing either of the other two.

I hate it. I wish I hadn't wasted the time and effort to level the job now because they went way overboard with oversimplifying everything.

Idk but I like new summoner, but I’m only level 81 or so. Seems better not having so much button bloat.

The way I see it, this is how the dev wanted SMN to be, more in line with summon flash and go like in the tactics games seeing as they're a huge fan of tactics in general.

Also summoner in FF history doesn't have dots as well as a "main" summon like carbuncle, they just casted and summoned whatever they needed for the situation.

Ofc MMO combat is gonna have to treat it differently. But I think the current iteration of SMN feels like a go stepping stone. The dev team has had so much trouble with balancing SMN and fighting their class fantasy. This is way more focused even if it's not as rewarding.

Those who reminisce pre-EW SMN are allowed to feel like they're missing that complexity because it had choice and doing things right felt good. But tbh, the job was hectic, had split focus between managing dots, summons, and the pet AI. From developer's POV, it's disaster and they definitely wanted to change it. To someone trying it out, it was daunting and didn't have a natural way of "hey, this goes into this and that works because of that," because it was disjointed.

Depending on the reception, I think they will prune Aetherflow entirely come 7.0 in line of quick summons that range as filler dps (lesser summons) and support skills (moonstone carbuncle).

I don't think the dev team is ever going back because they're slowly but surely deleting every part of HW design in favor of easier ones to design around. They even said we aren't getting back that ambitious jump they had. It's not worth the experimental that can cause more harm to the current balance. I think they want to do more gradual changes over time to find a concept they stick with.

Unrelated to how the thread started, but I don't want to make yet another thread to ask this, but for anybody who has leveled SMN up from ARR levels now, did they change the job quest storyline and fights at all? There was a problem after 5.0 of quests expecting you to have titan-egi tank several monsters, or bosses with heavy hitting attacks that you had to deal with yourself since the quest didn't give a tank npc. Then there was the whole lore thing of Tristan absorbing belial which was supposed to be a big no-no or something and now we just kinda do that before 50 anyway.

I just started playing SMN recently. (Got up to lvl 60) and it just feels like something is... Missing. I'm a tank main, and my first DPS was RDM. It was a TON of fun. I decided to give SMN a shot and it just doesn't feel as engaging. You have 1 single target and 1 aoe attack, plus the primal summons which are sort of "meh". Does SMN get better after level 70, or is this about as good as it gets?

Citation:

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Envoyé par Xrison

I just started playing SMN recently. (Got up to lvl 60) and it just feels like something is... Missing. I'm a tank main, and my first DPS was RDM. It was a TON of fun. I decided to give SMN a shot and it just doesn't feel as engaging. You have 1 single target and 1 aoe attack, plus the primal summons which are sort of "meh". Does SMN get better after level 70, or is this about as good as it gets?

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The only thing that seems to change as you level is that your summons get more flashy, that's about it really. So I'd say this is as good as it gets.

New summoner, more like fifth healer without actual healing.

I really like the idea of phase-based job, but they just went for bare minimum of what that design needs. Your choice doesnt matter as much as advertised because 2 of 3 primals are free movement. Ifrit's gapcloser is more of advantage rather than something you have to work around. Garuda's dot damage from slipstream is barely noticeable on single target unless you are aiming for every last potency point for your parse.

Both demis got downgraded in design, going from something you've built up to, to "press 1 for 15 seconds 4head". Yeah, you throw festers around.... in bahamut. Holding them from phoenix for 2m burst phases means that phoenix, while being "1 minute burst phase", plays like old "ruin mage" that people like to hate. Nothing is different between them, which is just nothing but wasted potential, they could give every demi its own identity. Like give bahamut short cast times and add some more bahamut-themed things to it, so its "thicc damage demi", and give phoenix ogcds so it would be "swift ogcd demi". Already something that separates these two and makes hitting lvl 80 at least somewhat exciting.

"At least its real summoner now"? Is it tho? Just because its similar to rydia and yuna doesnt mean its THE summoner of the series. FF3, FF5 (and FFT with FF11 from what ive seen), in those games summoners do not cast spells by themselves, always casting summons, unless you crossjob something that can. So where is true summoner? Nowhere! Both old and new summoners are just another iteration of it, one is "Give your summons orders and do NOTHING related to summoning" and other is "Summon for some potency with no other effects and then do NOTHING related to summoning".

"But summoner shouldn't have dots!"? But Rydia had both Bio and Poison, are people just conveniently forgetting about it for the sake of saying that "new smn is similar to rydia = its good"?
I'd imagine current smn was just extremely rushed due to the fact that they've had 4 iterations prior to it in development and current has barebones execution.

"It's a good foundation though, they will add new things later!": Look at machinist. People said same thing. Nothing got added. And why is foundation released in major expansion instead of full job?

I do enjoy the skill replacement system, i think this is really good way to avoid button bloat. But they could've done so much more with it. Why are gemshine and brilliance unused in bahamut and phoenix? Or r3 and tri-disaster in gems?

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Envoyé par MyakotApelsia

New summoner, more like fifth healer without actual healing.

I really like the idea of phase-based job, but they just went for bare minimum of what that design needs. Your choice doesnt matter as much as advertised because 2 of 3 primals are free movement. Ifrit's gapcloser is more of advantage rather than something you have to work around. Garuda's dot damage from slipstream is barely noticeable on single target unless you are aiming for every last potency point for your parse.

Both demis got downgraded in design, going from something you've built up to, to "press 1 for 15 seconds 4head". Yeah, you throw festers around.... in bahamut. Holding them from phoenix for 2m burst phases means that phoenix, while being "1 minute burst phase", plays like old "ruin mage" that people like to hate. Nothing is different between them, which is just nothing but wasted potential, they could give every demi its own identity. Like give bahamut short cast times and add some more bahamut-themed things to it, so its "thicc damage demi", and give phoenix ogcds so it would be "swift ogcd demi". Already something that separates these two and makes hitting lvl 80 at least somewhat exciting.

"At least its real summoner now"? Is it tho? Just because its similar to rydia and yuna doesnt mean its THE summoner of the series. FF3, FF5 (and FFT with FF11 from what ive seen), in those games summoners do not cast spells by themselves, always casting summons, unless you crossjob something that can. So where is true summoner? Nowhere! Both old and new summoners are just another iteration of it, one is "Give your summons orders and do NOTHING related to summoning" and other is "Summon for some potency with no other effects and then do NOTHING related to summoning".

"But summoner shouldn't have dots!"? But Rydia had both Bio and Poison, are people just conveniently forgetting about it for the sake of saying that "new smn is similar to rydia = its good"?
I'd imagine current smn was just extremely rushed due to the fact that they've had 4 iterations prior to it in development and current has barebones execution.

"It's a good foundation though, they will add new things later!": Look at machinist. People said same thing. Nothing got added. And why is foundation released in major expansion instead of full job?

I do enjoy the skill replacement system, i think this is really good way to avoid button bloat. But they could've done so much more with it. Why are gemshine and brilliance unused in bahamut and phoenix? Or r3 and tri-disaster in gems?

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Nice post, well articulated complaints. Look forward to one of aveyond's 3 copy-pasted worthless replies

Rydia was also an archer, to some degree. She could equip a handful of bows, certainly more than she had poison spells. If we follow that train of logic, Summoners should also be archers! The full list of her abilities can be found here. Most of the time you were casting elemental magic or summons. That's basically it. If you would like to see a return of poison magic, please voice your support in one of the many threads dedicated to a new caster for 7.0.

Even if new summons were only added as glamour options (and I sincerely hope that is not the case) I'll take a simple job that's actually playable without the kind of punishment that Shb SMN had or the convoluted mechanics competing for attention that have plagued the job since it was added in ARR.

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Envoyé par aveyond-dreams

Rydia was also an archer, to some degree. She could equip a handful of bows, certainly more than she had poison spells. If we follow that train of logic, Summoners should also be archers! The full list of her abilities can be found here. Most of the time you were casting elemental magic or summons. That's basically it. If you would like to see a return of poison magic, please voice your support in one of the many threads dedicated to a new caster for 7.0.

Even if new summons were only added as glamour options (and I sincerely hope that is not the case) I'll take a simple job that's actually playable without the kind of punishment that Shb SMN had or the convoluted mechanics competing for attention that have plagued the job since it was added in ARR.

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My point was that if you are going to use one specific iteration as an example of "why this is good and this is bad", then do it well, and do not take out specific parts of said iteration to prove your point. She casted actual blm spells, maybe we should remove summoner as a job and add summoning to black mage?

I personally didnt like dots. However, SHB SMN barely had any interaction when it came to them. For all intents and purposes, it was "pressing tri disaster 3 times and hardcasting them once".
If we take the logic of "it had dots, therefore it was dot job", why not apply it to other jobs? Paladin is dot job, pre-ew ninja was dot job, gunbreaker, healers, monk, hw drk. "Having dots" is not the same as "Working around dots", like how it was with pre-ew bard.

I enjoyed old summoner because it had buildup to your burst phases, those burst phases were very satisfying to pull off. We had to cast but we had resources to move around, not the other way around. Both bahamut and phoenix were different in what they did. Demi movement was clunky but they have fixed it in endwalker by fixing them in place, however at same time they removed what they were from gameplay perspective.

SHB SMN was also anything but hard or punishing. It was actually very simple, and i really feel like the only people that actually thought it was hard were the ones that looked at that one "2 minute opener" picture and thought "oh wow thats hard i wont play it". The only actual reason job would be punishing for you if you couldn't use at least one braincell when playing the game.

Say, they will bring new primals in. Without changing what primals do at its source, the only thing they will bring every such update is different animations on your gemshine without anything actually being different.

I personally don't mind them going this direction, as in "use primal, then your gamestyle changes", but as ive said, current smn fails at it. But you do you, the fact that other people dont enjoy it shouldn't affect what you enjoy.

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Envoyé par tearagion

Nice post, well articulated complaints. Look forward to one of aveyond's 3 copy-pasted worthless replies

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Didn't take long. Anytime the word DoTs. It's tiresome really. Clearly the new SMN is so boring people would rather play the forums over the game.

Despite the amount of posts they make in SMN threads, aveyond does not even have arcanist unlocked. And apparently hasn't played since 5.1 despite paying a sub to post, since they have two jobs at 80 and about ilvl 510. They really are only here to shitpost. Maybe even paying a sub just to do so.

Honestly, the calling of old SMN being hectic and having a split focus is entirely subjective and only opinion. I was once someone that was new had tried to it out. For me everything fell into place. I'm someone who felt that BLM was a hectic and painful mess to play while being pretty unfulfilling and boring on top of it. And, having BLM at 70 on an alt prior to EW, (I'm now trying it on my main to replace SMN), I never had anywhere near the fulfillment, comfort of play, and enjoyment compared to SMN.

And bringing up SMN history, it's always been whatever the game has required it to be. Sometimes to do nothing but summon, ala 3, sometimes to be a BLM, 4, a white mage, 9 and 10... There is nowhere near enough consistency to say it should't have DoT abilities. It's correct that summoners call whatever they need. That's in addition to what other skills they have depending on the game. Most of these are agmes where elements actually came into play; games where calling Ifrit and or a BLM using Fire actually -healed- enemies like Bombs not killed them. To bring up historical SMN is to invite the abilities their summons have in 11: Carbuncle could poison, Fenrir Paralyze, Titan could bind... it goes on. In FF3, Leviathan did EARTH damage when used by an Evoker. Rydia could poison in 4, or take 7 or 8 where anyone can be a summoner and through the use of Hades and Doomtrain inflict all sorts of status effects which include the DoT poison. To argue summoner history and then approve of how it is now in 14 is to ignore one of the biggest drawbacks: the MP cost. It was one of the differences between them and BLM's; the latter able to cast more for less damage with the former able to cause more damage (and a wide variety of effects as the games went on) at the price of more MP cost. That very cost is why, in games like Tactics, Tactics Advanced 1/2 they learn supports to halve the MP cost. The very nature that proponents for the change turn to is arguably against some of the very games they bring up: anti-spam. Adding to lack of consistency with the class, in Tactics Advanced 1 and 2, it was a -Viera- LOCKED job that came from the Status Ailment class Elementalist; requiring a Fencer ability and a WHM in the 1st game and 2 WHM in the 2nd The Viera who are spiritual, forest dwelling people that I'd say are decided different than Allag.

The point: there's almost no consistency to it. It is potentially one of the most inconsistent in background, getting it, uses, what summons can/can't do, in all of Final Fantasy. Compared to 11 alone, the summon's here are not even shadows of what they can do in that game. Just like Tactics, 7, 5, TA, and 11 are all their own games with their own takes on summoner (again, with some games allowing EVERY character to be summoner, even 'monks' like Tifa and Zell), old summoner was 14's summoner.

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Envoyé par MyakotApelsia

New summoner, more like fifth healer without actual healing.

I really like the idea of phase-based job, but they just went for bare minimum of what that design needs. Your choice doesnt matter as much as advertised because 2 of 3 primals are free movement. Ifrit's gapcloser is more of advantage rather than something you have to work around. Garuda's dot damage from slipstream is barely noticeable on single target unless you are aiming for every last potency point for your parse.

Both demis got downgraded in design, going from something you've built up to, to "press 1 for 15 seconds 4head". Yeah, you throw festers around.... in bahamut. Holding them from phoenix for 2m burst phases means that phoenix, while being "1 minute burst phase", plays like old "ruin mage" that people like to hate. Nothing is different between them, which is just nothing but wasted potential, they could give every demi its own identity. Like give bahamut short cast times and add some more bahamut-themed things to it, so its "thicc damage demi", and give phoenix ogcds so it would be "swift ogcd demi". Already something that separates these two and makes hitting lvl 80 at least somewhat exciting.

"At least its real summoner now"? Is it tho? Just because its similar to rydia and yuna doesnt mean its THE summoner of the series. FF3, FF5 (and FFT with FF11 from what ive seen), in those games summoners do not cast spells by themselves, always casting summons, unless you crossjob something that can. So where is true summoner? Nowhere! Both old and new summoners are just another iteration of it, one is "Give your summons orders and do NOTHING related to summoning" and other is "Summon for some potency with no other effects and then do NOTHING related to summoning".

"But summoner shouldn't have dots!"? But Rydia had both Bio and Poison, are people just conveniently forgetting about it for the sake of saying that "new smn is similar to rydia = its good"?
I'd imagine current smn was just extremely rushed due to the fact that they've had 4 iterations prior to it in development and current has barebones execution.

"It's a good foundation though, they will add new things later!": Look at machinist. People said same thing. Nothing got added. And why is foundation released in major expansion instead of full job?

I do enjoy the skill replacement system, i think this is really good way to avoid button bloat. But they could've done so much more with it. Why are gemshine and brilliance unused in bahamut and phoenix? Or r3 and tri-disaster in gems?

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Nicely put though where are my girls Eiko and Garnet? If we're bringing Iconic summoners in, at least include all of them!

It's fascinating how those that pride themselves about being masters of old SMN cannot grasp the concept of posting from an alt. In any case come 6.1 this and another handful of alts that have fallen behind will get a SMN boost-assuming this crowd doesn't succeed in their plot to twist Summoner back into the poison mage/"Complex!" class they loved dearly that the rest of the world was veering away from all the while.

You have to have an active subscription to post on the forums, why would you have an alt account you don't play but pay to keep active?

After a week of progging with new-SMN I absolutely love it even though it does feel on the simple side. Really I just want a second set of slightly different primals post-Phoenix, with different movement requirements and options. Let me call down the lightning with Ramuh and I'll never play another class again.

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Envoyé par Madoka

You have to have an active subscription to post on the forums, why would you have an alt account you don't play but pay to keep active?

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Since when do we pay to keep our alts active? This is not FFXI where you have to pay per character.

I think it is you that is obsessed with things; obsessed with the chance that maybe the change you say you enjoy so much might -actually- be undone. So you seek to do nothing but poke and prod at individuals expressing their honest opinions with nothing more than series of repetitive statements. You do this, I can only assume, out of a desire to get a volatile reaction because you either enjoy upsetting people or so you can claim the victim of being attacked. I would say this is further evidenced by, when all else has failed, you fall back on to shouts of "poison mage", "complex" and "Warlock" while using anecdotal evidence and unverifiable statements like "rest of the world" "all other's" "everyone else." But, for the sake of argument, let us say that your passion for this current summoner is real, and even I'm starting to doubt that it is, that still does not give you the moral high ground to attack and deride people because they have an opposing viewpoint. And what is this about a plot? You think that some group of players have managed to get together started to systematically post negativity about the rework with a deliberate and aimed goal amongst them? Or that maybe, just maybe, the rework is much more of a failure than you are comfortable admitting and that's why you attack others? And I can tell you this, after hitting 90 with the class last night, getting a fancier egi glam (because that's -all- your lvl 90 trait is) was not with the complete gutting of the class. And if -this- is what their intent was, then they should have introduced all of this class as Evoker and left summoner alone.

Say "DoTs" to scare and upset the Summoner Historians™. It works like a charm!

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Envoyé par mathias-merodach

I think it is you that is obsessed with things; obsessed with the chance that maybe the change you say you enjoy so much might -actually- be undone. So you seek to do nothing but poke and prod at individuals expressing their honest opinions with nothing more than series of repetitive statements. You do this, I can only assume, out of a desire to get a volatile reaction because you either enjoy upsetting people or so you can claim the victim of being attacked. I would say this is further evidenced by, when all else has failed, you fall back on to shouts of "poison mage", "complex" and "Warlock" while using anecdotal evidence and unverifiable statements like "rest of the world" "all other's" "everyone else." But, for the sake of argument, let us say that your passion for this current summoner is real, and even I'm starting to doubt that it is, that still does not give you the moral high ground to attack and deride people because they have an opposing viewpoint. And what is this about a plot? You think that some group of players have managed to get together started to systematically post negativity about the rework with a deliberate and aimed goal amongst them? Or that maybe, just maybe, the rework is much more of a failure than you are comfortable admitting and that's why you attack others? And I can tell you this, after hitting 90 with the class last night, getting a fancier egi glam (because that's -all- your lvl 90 trait is) was not with the complete gutting of the class. And if -this- is what their intent was, then they should have introduced all of this class as Evoker and left summoner alone.

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That's a whole lot of words to say that you still cannot get over the fact that the job changed and you just didn't like it. That's quite alright, because I'm under no impression that a reversion or reintroduction of the themes and mechanics of pre-6.0 SMN would go down smoothly with the overwhelming majority of people.

What this really is reminds me of when you had people saying "omg no one would play bunny boys!" Only for them to become one of the most popular race/gender combinations much in the same way that SMN is now the most popular caster outside of JP, whose favourite caster is presently Red Mage, another straightforward class that is by no means "complex!"

Though if that is the case, unlike the bulk of people here I do have other jobs to fall back on. In the time after I dropped 5.X SMN I did manage to get a taste of so many of the other wonderful classes in this game that don't suffer from a permanent state of identity crisis (except Bard, but that's a battle for another day) and I was able to have a really great time.