Tank healing is to high

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm going to ask as a reminder to myself on this...were WAR able to completely solo a dungeon boss without a healer within the first 2 weeks of ShB?

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WAR couldn't solo a lot of stuff in 5.0, because Nascent required a target until 5.3. Once 5.3 dropped Nascent no longer required a target and WAR was back to soloing stuff just fine.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Again, the issue is one of degree. When it's doable without particularly skilled dps and while said tank is half asleep, it's no longer merely "possible", but easy.

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And again, the same was possible in ShB. While I linked speedruns, it was certainly possible to get through dungeons in ShB without a healer or particularly skilled dps players. I know from personal experience that it was quite easy to handle single pulls with no healer and only two dps if a healer dropped. Throw in a third dps and most wall to wall pulls in ShB would have been very easy to self-heal through.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

I know from personal experience that it was quite easy to handle single pulls with no healer and only two dps if a healer dropped.

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Single pulls, or even the occasional wall-to-wall pull =/= easily no-healing entire dungeons. Yes, I'd no healed Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep as Warrior before even 2.1. It's always been possible. But that at least required some skill and coordination.

I literally did not need to bring healers on my dungeon spams when leveling my Warrior. This was while sick and tired, playing poorly, with a drunk DPS friend, and whichever two dps joined first from shout chat. There is, again, a difference in degree of that ease. What was previously "possible" has instead become fairly easy.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

WAR couldn't solo a lot of stuff in 5.0, because Nascent required a target until 5.3. Once 5.3 dropped Nascent no longer required a target and WAR was back to soloing stuff just fine.

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That may be the big change here then. When it started happening in 5.3 everybody attributed it to gear, but now that we're in a brand new expansion with actual changes, it's showing up more powerful than ever. Though that may also have to do with Equilibrium suddenly getting a 200 cure potency HoT that lasts 15s...why on earth they thought WAR needed that is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Single pulls, or even the occasional wall-to-wall pull =/= easily no-healing entire dungeons. Yes, I'd no healed Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep as Warrior before even 2.1. It's always been possible. But that at least required some skill and coordination.

I literally did not need to bring healers on my dungeon spams when leveling my Warrior. This was while sick and tired, playing poorly, with a drunk DPS friend, and whichever two dps joined first from shout chat. There is, again, a difference in degree of that ease. What was previously "possible" has instead become fairly easy.

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Please read the entire post. Single pulls with two dps, not three. Having the extra dps from that third dps is a significant boost that makes it much easier to wall to wall without a healer. During Shadowbringers I only had the one chance to test WAR self-healing in dungeons without a healer, and my dps seemed rather nervous about the idea so I limited it to single pulls. I however was left with the impression that it would be quite easy to have done that specific dungeon(Akademia) without a healer, based on how little healing was required for the couple of single pulls we had before a healer filled.

For those wondering why it is now only a problem, do keep in mind there were individuals who expected Nascent to get nerfed hard moving forward. Since this did not happen, they are probably going to voice their disapproval now, especially when the following gets considered.

Here's also some numbers for those interested.

At level 82, the Warrior gains 400 healing potency and 400 shield potency, along with a 10% mitigation boost to Raw Intuition (BTW This makes "Nascent" available in level 70 ultimates) when it upgrades to Bloodwhetting. That's effectively +10% mitigation, +800 effective healing.

At level 82, the Dark Knight gains +10% mitigation. Now, Odin's been pointing out Oblation is better than we credit it for, which I don't doubt, but I also would venture the guess that it doesn't close the gap to Bloodwhetting.

At Level 82, the Gunbreaker gains +15% mitigation and +900 healing.

At level 82, the Paladin gains +15% mitigation and +1000 healing.

So far things are pretty even, no?

No.

Bloodwhetting scales with enemy count. None of the other options do.

Nascent -doubles- the healing (100% to you, 100% to your target) while also scaling with enemy count. None of the other options do.

It also ignores that Raw Intuition starts at a 1200 base healing potency. The other level 82 traits were to merely catch them up with Raw intuition. You know who else has an effective 1200 potency heal on their short CD but only got a paired 10% mitigation to go with it?

Dark Knight.

If we were being generous and realistic, then you overheal on one hit of Raw/Bloodwhetting, because they have mitigation attached and you really should be taking advantage of that when busters are coming, meaning that instead of an effective 1200 / 2000 healing potency, it's only 800 / 1600 healing potency.

What about their level 84 traits?

Warrior gains +1000 healing on Equilbrium. This is +1000 healing / minute.

Gunbreaker gains +1 charge of Aurora. This effectively becomes +1 use / encounter, or +1200 healing potency / encounter. Warrior got nearly the entirety of the Gunbreaker's Aurora skill as a trait. I don't think I can reiterate this any harder - Warrior got Gunbreaker's Aurora skill as a TRAIT.

Dark Knight gets a meme, and while Odin says this might actually add more than we credit it, which I don't doubt, one can perhaps understand why some jimmies are being rustled.

Paladin gets +1600 healing potency / minute baked into its rotation, but because its baked into the rotation, it means that your on demand healing isn't actually 1600 healing potency, because it's divided over GCDs and if you aren't taking damage when you're doing your spell rotation, then it's overhealing.

Out of curiosity, what's the value in Oblation?

10% DR makes sense for non-tanks on raidwides, but if it's a dealbreaker on a tankbuster then you're probably cutting it too close. And even if we're talking about shielding allies on raidwides, it's worth remembering that several of the melee dps have their own personal shields on 30 second recasts that mitigate the same if not more on shorter recasts than this level 82 tank mitigation move. Its use seems fairly niche to me.

I mean, you can stack it with itself for around 18~% I think ? But still that's so niche...

You can't even stack it on the same target, which would have made it about on par with a level 2 Ninja mitigation ability. Applying it a second time just resets the timer.

Again, unless I'm missing something major here, I suspect that this is another case of someone designing actions for tanks who has never played tank in their life.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You can't even stack it on the same target, which would have made it about on par with a level 2 Ninja mitigation ability. Applying it a second time just resets the timer.

Again, unless I'm missing something major here, I suspect that this is another case of someone designing actions for tanks who has never played tank in their life.

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Or at least not DRK because the other tanks feel way more satisfying, DRK has the damage now but is severely lacking with their defensive options SE should really look into that on the savage patch.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Single pulls, or even the occasional wall-to-wall pull =/= easily no-healing entire dungeons. Yes, I'd no healed Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep as Warrior before even 2.1. It's always been possible. But that at least required some skill and coordination.

I literally did not need to bring healers on my dungeon spams when leveling my Warrior. This was while sick and tired, playing poorly, with a drunk DPS friend, and whichever two dps joined first from shout chat. There is, again, a difference in degree of that ease. What was previously "possible" has instead become fairly easy.

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Blood bath was way stronger than Nascent flash.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Blood bath was way stronger than Nascent flash.

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That depend on how immediately one needed healing. It had half the percent damage-to-healing, didn't heal an ally in addition to self, and existed in a context without Enhanced Infuriate, bankable Wrath (now "Beast Gauge") spenders, multiple Infuriate charges, Inner Release, or auto-crit skills. Its only advantage over Nascent was its far longer duration.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Out of curiosity, what's the value in Oblation?

10% DR makes sense for non-tanks on raidwides, but if it's a dealbreaker on a tankbuster then you're probably cutting it too close. And even if we're talking about shielding allies on raidwides, it's worth remembering that several of the melee dps have their own personal shields on 30 second recasts that mitigate the same if not more on shorter recasts than this level 82 tank mitigation move. Its use seems fairly niche to me.

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To meme a little bit on the devs, "value will depend on player skill".

The short version is that TBN + Oblation is about equal to the other Short CDs on busters, and only busters, and only then if we discount the healing put on them.

TBN + Oblation = 125% HP / .9 = ~138% EHP
Bloodwhetting = 100% HP / .81 * 1.072 = ~132% EHP
Heart of Corundrum = 100% HP / .72 = ~ 138% EHP
Shelltron = 100% / .8 / .85 = ~147% EHP

Moving into other scenarios, TBN + Oblation begins to fare worse almost entirely because it's the only one of the combinations that doesn't restore health, in addition to the actual % mitigation being lower. Once the shield is gone, which in a wall to wall pull currently would pop the shield and then all you have is a 10% mitigation.

Comparatively speaking, the other tanks still have 15-25% mitigation running, and their "TBN" worth of health is still coming in. While theoretically this means all the tanks are mostly equal in this regard, the reality is that Dark Knights require more support and awareness in staying alive. It's just a matter of numbers at that point, though experienced Dark Knights with experienced healers will hardly run into any bumps. This in part is also contributed to by Living Dead still being a trashfire. That's 10 seconds worth of cooldown reduction Dark Knights are conditioned to avoid using in most cases.

The short version here is that the enemy scaling Bloodwhetting and Nascent have should probably be removed, and then things stop at least being absurdly ridiculous. Finally fix Living Dead in addition to that and maybe the riot will stave off a few more months.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's an issue in that it allowed me to just grab 2 decent DPS over shout chat to play alongside my RDM friend and literally not bother with a healer during dungeon spams to level as Warrior, and that I could still keep myself and my DPS alive while zombie-ing through said dungeons, sick and tired from my booster. When one role makes another defunct, let alone with no real effort required, that's not great for the overall experience.

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I find it funny that you typed this as an attempt to show that war healing is broken when you were rolling with a DPS/healer (rdm) while "zombie-ing" through dungeons (which are never challenging). You also missed the point that war and pld have been capable of this back in ShB. Wasn't broken then. Not broken now. Also I've done a lv 80 dungeon this expansion with no tank. Just me pseudo tanking on MnK, with a whm and a rdm. So I guess MnK is also op.....

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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We're not really trying to min-max mitigation, though. You're either alive or dead at the end of a tankbuster. I don't see many cases where that extra 10% is specifically going to push you into a safe zone, and even then I probably wouldn't trust it. Otherwise we'd be burning Reprisal on tankbusters.

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Originally Posted by Oextra

I find it funny that you typed this as an attempt to show that war healing is broken when you were rolling with a DPS/healer (rdm)

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:: First, off, no Vercures were used except between fights. I think in Ktisis one DPS mis-aimed their Elusive when maxing uptime of meteors and went into the drink and was Verraised, across Zot -> Aitiascope. An RDM is not remotely relevant when you're running a Warrior. Lacking the 30% trait, a RDM's 350 cure potency is worth only 270 of an actual healer's.

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You also missed the point that war and pld have been capable of this back in ShB. Wasn't broken then. Not broken now. Also I've done a lv 80 dungeon this expansion with no tank. Just me pseudo tanking on MnK, with a whm and a rdm. So I guess MnK is also op.....

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No, I did not miss the point. I argued that there is a matter of degree before which being able to no-heal is fine and after which being to no-heal 00easily, thoughtlessly, and faster-- is not.

Let's take your "OP Monk tank" example. Was it faster to do that dungeon tanking as a Monk than with an actual tank? Twice in the last three days, I've three-manned (Reaper/Monk-tanked) the first two bosses of dungeons during the period where we couldn't kick and replace our d/ced tank. You don't even need RoE/AC to survive the tankbusters. I've done similar in every expansion. Even if we'd had another dps, though, it certainly wouldn't have been faster than taking a tank, unlike replacing the healer with a further DPS now when one's tank is a Warrior.

No-tanking dungeons has been possible since 2.0. No-healing dungeons has been possible since 2.0. Neither, depending on one's comp, has ever stopped being possible. But, apart from the quickly nerfed Titan-Egi-based 4-SMN kite/swap groups, they have never been faster nor as easy to pull off as traditional 1/2/1 groups from the moment Mind gear split from Intelligence. That's the difference.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

:: First, off, no Vercures were used except between fights.[...]

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Why would you cast vercure in between fights when the auto Regen will take care of that? Especially since OP war is face rolling the dungeon..... but whatever I'll take your word for it. Also it doesn't matter if vercure isn't as strong as a normal healer's cure. It still adds a decent enough amount of HP, especially since they can do it twice in a row in essentially the same time a normal cure could be casted (basically making it a 540 potency cure). So don't try to write it off as irrelevant, it's not Physick.

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No, I did not miss the point. I argued that there is a matter of degree before which being able to no-heal is fine and after which being to no-heal 00easily, thoughtlessly, and faster-- is not.

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So speed running trivial content dictates whether something is op or not? As stated before, this has been a thing at least since ShB. People have been able to speed run dungeons with no healer since 5.3 as someone showed multiple videos of. The only dungeons I would say WAR is legit stronger in are lv 56-76 ones since RI is now NF. Everything else is more or less the same in terms of results. WAR been capable of soloing bosses since 5.3 and can still solo now. The only difference is now it can happen starting from 56 instead of 76.

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Let's take your "OP Monk tank" example. [...]

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It wasn't an example. It was sarcasm to point out the ridiculousness of this entire thread. Being able to do "outrageous" things in easy content is not mind blowing. It's entertaining at best and therefore a poor measure of something being op or not.

When you can find a group completing raids and trials faster/easier without any healers and strictly tanks and DPS, then we can discuss what's op. Until then this entire discussion needs to transition from tanks are somehow too powerful (for trivial content), to dungeons should be made to be more difficult or at least have a "Savage/Extreme" option like trials and raids. Because what we have here isn't a tank problem. It's a "bottom end" content isn't challenging enough problem.

So we got from healers heal to healers heal and DPS to healers mainly DPS (with one button) to healers don't even need to be present anymore. Great design. /s

I think it is pretty fair to say that more most of the game War has had to much self sustain. I think this expansion the self sustain is over the top particularly in wars case. I don't think it was really needed and I am not understanding why it was implemented.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

To meme a little bit on the devs, "value will depend on player skill".

The short version is that TBN + Oblation is about equal to the other Short CDs on busters, and only busters, and only then if we discount the healing put on them.

TBN + Oblation = 125% HP / .9 = ~138% EHP
Bloodwhetting = 100% HP / .81 * 1.072 = ~132% EHP
Heart of Corundrum = 100% HP / .72 = ~ 138% EHP
Shelltron = 100% / .8 / .85 = ~147% EHP

Moving into other scenarios, TBN + Oblation begins to fare worse almost entirely because it's the only one of the combinations that doesn't restore health, in addition to the actual % mitigation being lower. Once the shield is gone, which in a wall to wall pull currently would pop the shield and then all you have is a 10% mitigation.

Comparatively speaking, the other tanks still have 15-25% mitigation running, and their "TBN" worth of health is still coming in. While theoretically this means all the tanks are mostly equal in this regard, the reality is that Dark Knights require more support and awareness in staying alive. It's just a matter of numbers at that point, though experienced Dark Knights with experienced healers will hardly run into any bumps. This in part is also contributed to by Living Dead still being a trashfire. That's 10 seconds worth of cooldown reduction Dark Knights are conditioned to avoid using in most cases.

The short version here is that the enemy scaling Bloodwhetting and Nascent have should probably be removed, and then things stop at least being absurdly ridiculous. Finally fix Living Dead in addition to that and maybe the riot will stave off a few more months.

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Cant argue with math...

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I think it is pretty fair to say that more most of the game War has had to much self sustain. I think this expansion the self sustain is over the top particularly in wars case. I don't think it was really needed and I am not understanding why it was implemented.

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SE's not known to balance around dungeons though. In raids WAR sustain is perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Out of curiosity, what's the value in Oblation?

10% DR makes sense for non-tanks on raidwides, but if it's a dealbreaker on a tankbuster then you're probably cutting it too close. And even if we're talking about shielding allies on raidwides, it's worth remembering that several of the melee dps have their own personal shields on 30 second recasts that mitigate the same if not more on shorter recasts than this level 82 tank mitigation move. Its use seems fairly niche to me.

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I figure since I'm being quoted directly as a supporter of Oblation, I should at least offer my perspective on the skill, and my affinity torwards it. Kabooa has taken the time to give some of the stats of Oblation itself, so I'll focus on it from a design standpoint instead.

Going to preface this with: I do not think Oblation is "good". I think it is adequate at best, certainly interesting, and probably deserves buffs.

To start with, I do not view Oblation strictly as a TBN+, although I have no doubt it was initially designed that way. While combined with TBN, it is quite comparable on busters, and falls behind afterwards due to a lack of recovery post hit that the 10% mitigation is not enough for.

But the thing that makes Oblation interesting is that it's not beholden to the same "restrictions" as the other short term cooldowns are. When you are shielding someone with your mitigation on WAR/DRK/GNB, do they REALLY need all of the effects of their respective cooldowns? Or is all of that healing going into overheal? Is that short term mitigation bump really making the difference between life and death? Naturally, the answer varies depending not only on the encounter, but on the situation in that exact moment of activation, both on the person giving the buff and the person receiving it.

Oblation at it's core emphasizes what I truly appreciate about Dark Knight post-Shadowbringers. And that is flexibility in the kit. While Oblation does not do any one thing very well, it does everything adequately. Rather than viewing Oblation as the second part of a decoupled TBN trait, I instead view it as a personal version of HW Reprisal, without the damage, on a stack system. and shorter duration. Let me lay out a few test scenarios in fights we have seen previously where I think Oblation has potential value.

Any fight that features a heavy prey damage on a DPS/Healer (A12S Blazing Scourges, O12S HW, E11S lightning tether)

While I realize many DPS have the ability to self mitigate quite well (MNK, RPR), I still think it is a tank's job to support the team as best as possible with mitigation. I bring up those three fights because all of those fights have prey markers that are subsequently followed up by, or happen at the same time as heavy tank damage through a buster or sustained auto attacks. This is why the 2 stack system is so interesting to me, because it allows the DRK to make choices without having tradeoffs. A GNB who throws their HoC on the DPS will do more than equivalent amounts of mitigation as compared to a TBN+Oblation, but their HoC is no longer usable for their own, or their co-tanks following damage. Oblation leverages this quite well, with giving minor mitigation if needed on the DPS, while still having the TBN and the 2nd stack for personal/co-usage. This is similar to what PLD can do with Holy Sheltron + Intervention, but the caveat is that both those skills are quite heavy investments, while Oblation isn't. It's kinda just there, while TBN remains free as an option for more heavy lifting if required.

Any fight that features either burst or sustained double tank damage. (TEA, E8S, P3?)

I would've killed to have a mitigation like Oblation on Living Liquid, CC/BJ, or Nael+Twin. Those are stressful heal environments in progression, and taking a few thousand damage off each auto attack for both tanks, even for ten seconds, give a bit a breathing room in what are somewhat hectic situations. It doesn't even need to be both tanks either, a GNB in Nael + Twin for example has a competitive edge over DRK's naturally because Dark Mind is only good for Megaflare. But if Oblation was in that fight, it would serve as a great alternative to Camouflage for the DRK personally, and whenever Nael would do quotes and Twin would attack only one tank during a heavy twister movement, DRKs could support whoever the Twin tank would be at the time, WITHOUT compromising their major mitigation in TBN for following tankbusters. On top of just giving both tanks a 10% if cooldowns were more appropriate for said auto attack damage.

It's a verdict weighing all of your eggs in one basket (non-DRK tanks) vs the option to spread out your eggs amongst the same or different targets depending on the scenario (DRK).

Trying to get a DA proc for raid buffs? TBN is enough.
TBN is too much, and won't break? (ie: kitchensinking cotank + helpful heals/DPS, or minor raidwide) Oblation on it's own to assist, assuming it's free and multiple stacks will not be needed in the next 60 seconds.
Heavy damage on a friend? TBN + Oblation.
Heavy damage on a friend AND another target? TBN + Oblation X2.
Heavy damage on a friend, another friend, a 3rd friend AND yourself? Like, split stack markers? Dark Missionary for the team, TBN 1st, Oblation 2nd, Oblation 3rd, and personal mitigations for yourself.
Kitchensinking? Add Oblation on top, it's free, pretty much.
Someone going into a raidwide like Akh Morn with a vuln or low HP? Just Oblation them to negate the vuln entirely, add the TBN on top if death is likely otherwise. (this will be relevant in P3S and P4S, I'm sure.)
Sustained auto attack damage? Light mitigation from your co-tank, and supplement it with 2 Oblations spread out over twenty seconds, try to catch a raidwide if possible.

And more. The argument I have is that ALL of the above can be mixed and matched with DRK's current kit all on ONE skill. In a game where we constantly invuln and dump our entire kits on a single buster, having something that encourages intelligent usage like this is a breath of fresh air, and I want to see the skill have more support.

There's serious potential for such a flexible mitigation. However, it's too weak. The cooldown is simply too long to be just a personal 10%, and it's underwhelming in dungeon content with such a low percentage. Now don't get me wrong, a 10% is good, Reprisal is still a great role action! Imagine all the Morn Afahs or late-phase Akh Morns you would've died to without that -10% damage from the boss? Sometimes, people just need a little extra. I am usually loathe to make suggestions, but to truly have parity with other tanks, and to make it a compelling, meaningful cooldown in all content at a surface level without this amount of theorycrafting about some nebulous "potential" the skill might have, Oblation should either be able to be used more often by reducing the cooldown down to 40/45 seconds for more usages, or it's mitigation straight-up doubled to 20% to be more impactful when it is used, or the duration doubled to 20 seconds to encourage spreading it out.

Hopefully that makes my thoughts on it more clear. I just love having more options, and more ways to help. I love defensive optimization, and Oblation feels like it was made for someone like me.

But it needs just a little bit more to push it over the finish line. At least it looks really cool.

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Originally Posted by Oextra

Why would you cast vercure in between fights when the auto Regen will take care of that

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Because it costs you literally nothing, not even movement time, when you're already further along than the tank by way of stutter-stepping.

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So speed running trivial content dictates whether something is op or not?

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Your frame, not mine. My thinking was that having some 2 to 4x the throughput of the other jobs in one's role, to the point that what is most efficient for content is reshaped around one job's presence, is OP. Simple as that.

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As stated before, this has been a thing at least since ShB.

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This has never been contested. I just gave you examples of having done so since 2.0. There were likewise Warrior solos back then too. That's not the point in contention here.

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Being able to do "outrageous" things in easy content is not mind blowing.

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Warrior's defensive throughput being "outrageous" is not limited to easy content.

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Because what we have here isn't a tank problem.

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I haven't even argued that it is. I've been quite specific in which one, and only one, tank I think is a problematic outlier.

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Until then this entire discussion needs to transition from tanks are somehow too powerful (for trivial content), to dungeons should be made to be more difficult or at least have a "Savage/Extreme" option like trials and raids.

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The two discussions aren't mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

I figure since I'm being quoted directly as a supporter of Oblation.

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Sorry about that, but I do enjoy reading these dissections.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Your frame, not mine. My thinking was that having some 2 to 4x the throughput of the other jobs in one's role, to the point that what is most efficient for content is reshaped around one job's presence, is OP. Simple as that.

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I'm starting to think you only play dungeons. WARs presence in Extremes and raids doesn't reshaped the content. This will more than likely be the case for the savages as well.

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This has never been contested. I just gave you examples of having done so since 2.0. There were likewise Warrior solos back then too. That's not the point in contention here.

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Exactly, no one was contesting it then but are now. It literally makes no sense since the results are more or less the same now as they were then.

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Warrior's defensive throughput being "outrageous" is not limited to easy content.

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Really now. So you see WARs soloing extremes and raids or needing no heals in Extremes and raids? If so I need links.

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I haven't even argued that it is. I've been quite specific in which one, and only one, tank I think is a problematic outlier.

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I know. You specifically have been singling WAR out (even though PLD's survivability is just as good), but the entire thread addresses 3 of the 4 tanks. Either way your argument is only for easy content, dungeons. WARs healing is perfectly fine in actual hard content.

Please, take your WAR into an extreme and/or raid and tell, better yet show me how broken it is. I've already done this and I'm telling you, it's nowhere near broken. Dungeons, are simply not difficult. So to base what is op off of such content is simply not a good idea.

Warrior can solo Shinryu Extreme with 25% echo. I don't even wanna hear it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqSCn624pRQ

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Warrior can solo Shinryu Extreme with 25% echo. I don't even wanna hear it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqSCn624pRQ

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Dang, WAR can solo 2 expansions old content, never heard of that...
I'm pretty sure PLD can do that just as easy. Actually PLD is still the better solo raid job because he does not require a target to heal himself to full if required.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Warrior can solo Shinryu Extreme with 25% echo. I don't even wanna hear it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqSCn624pRQ

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OH NO!

Anyway, what's new?

Just simply reading the Tooltip on Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting shows it isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing.

Additional Effect: Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered
Cure Potency: 400

NOT every enemy hit, Every weapon skill used.

So it should be doing 400 potency every time you press the Weaponskill for a average total of 1200 potency per Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting cycle which isn't over powered at all.

Warrior is broken because a skill is bugged.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Dang, WAR can solo 2 expansions old content, never heard of that...
I'm pretty sure PLD can do that just as easy. Actually PLD is still the better solo raid job because he does not require a target to heal himself to full if required.

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And GNB/DRK can't. Sustain strong on PLD and broken on WAR.

Yeah? Tons of jobs can't solo certain content. Clearly every job should have powerful sustain because that's how the game is balanced, soloing 2 expansion old content.

Guess we should nerf MCH and RDM for being so busted in potd. They have by far the easiest time soloing it, so clearly they're overturned.

Let's nerf rdm since it's the only job that can cheese bozja duels.because it having a niche in certain fringe instances determines the game's balance across the board.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Just simply reading the Tooltip on Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting shows it isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing.

Additional Effect: Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered
Cure Potency: 400

NOT every enemy hit, Every weapon skill used.

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When I AoE I successfully deliver every hit of this weapon skill on all the targets. The wording is weird but it essentially does what the tooltip says.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

And GNB/DRK can't. Sustain strong on PLD and broken on WAR.

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GNB/DRK will be favoured in raid content due to their damage.
GNB is fine as it is, DRK does need some adjustments on their survival especially in dungeons I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Just simply reading the Tooltip on Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting shows it isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing.

Additional Effect: Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered
Cure Potency: 400

NOT every enemy hit, Every weapon skill used.

So it should be doing 400 potency every time you press the Weaponskill for a average total of 1200 potency per Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting cycle which isn't over powered at all.

Warrior is broken because a skill is bugged.

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Keyword, delivered.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Just simply reading the Tooltip on Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting shows it isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing.

Additional Effect: Restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered
Cure Potency: 400

NOT every enemy hit, Every weapon skill used.

So it should be doing 400 potency every time you press the Weaponskill for a average total of 1200 potency per Raw Intuition / Bloodwhetting cycle which isn't over powered at all.

Warrior is broken because a skill is bugged.

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Well I guess it's been bugged for what 1-2 years? I can't believe SE hasn't noticed this yet! Sarcasm aside, it says weapon skills successfully DELIVERED. This is the same as saying on hit. But hey it's bugged.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

And GNB/DRK can't. Sustain strong on PLD and broken on WAR.

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Dark Knight can Solo Shinryu EX if you are good, with 15 or 20% echo I have do 0.8% on my best run and just because Esteem is bug if you summon him on the back of Shinryu, I was timeout after this try and don't wanted to retry for augmented my echoe again, I know i can kill him so it's okay

Of course it's probably more easy for War.

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Originally Posted by Ashua

Not sure if Square/Enix is intending this to go into Savage mode as is but if the last two weeks of the expansion are of any indication the tank healing is way higher than it should be. Seeing all the numbers tanks can put out in self-healing from 10k heals to 30-40k burst heals is a tad silly. They are officially stronger healers than the classes meant to heal. We need a balance patch before the real raiding begins or this might be the most ridiculous game anyone can take seriously that wants to have a progressive raiding core to go with.


The game has a lottof issues right now with balance and cheating and I would not be against delaying the Savage raids to take care of rotation/movement bots and programs that tell you where to go and what mechanics are about to happen. That along with the balance of tanks and healers right now is also a huge consideration to me.

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Don't even want to bother reading this thread, all I can say is asking for a self nerf, because "you are bored" and want to be challenged is the ultimate betrayal to your own team aka tanks. I would never ask for a nerf for what I play, and on another note, no tank healing doesn't need a nerf, it's fine. Have you seen what happens when you have a bad healer? Or a dead healer, tank healing allows for your to carry.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

Don\\'t even want to bother reading this thread, all I can say is asking for a self nerf, because "you are bored" and want to be challenged is the ultimate betrayal to your own team aka tanks. I would never ask for a nerf for what I play, and on another note, no tank healing doesn\\'t need a nerf, it\\'s fine. Have you seen what happens when you have a bad healer? Or a dead healer, tank healing allows for your to carry.

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Aren't you supposed to be trolling the Healer forums? Why are you over here now, we already have enough nonsense on the Tank forums, we don't need another person who doesn't know what they are talking about shout more garbage.

If you don't think something is seriously amiss with two tanks being able to carry six DPS in current, extreme content, you're being disingenuous at best, or outright refusing to see how devastating it is to community sentiment torwards both roles. It doesn't matter if it's a "super optimized static" or whatever, it flat out should not be possible.

If you are bad/someone is your team is bad, and you are part of a lynchpin role such as a tank or a healer and your inadequacy leads to wipes, that team should not clear. Full stop. They're not good enough to clear, so they shouldn't.

If you're unwilling to compromise your own role's VERY OBVIOUS imbalance through justified nerfs, it just means you're selfish, and would rather see yourself at the top of the hierarchy without earning that spot through legitimate effort and skill.

That doesn't make me a traitor to the role, it means I care about game design that makes sense and doesn't invalidate entire portions of the playerbase. Even if it means alienating the outliers.

You know that this isn't "tank versus healers versus dps" right ?

This is a *team* effort, if a single member makes others irrelevant it isn't fair nor fun. Especially if it is easy to do so.
Soloing bosses is fun, when it's a challenge. Not when it's just because other players are optionals.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

If you don't think something is seriously amiss with two tanks being able to carry six DPS in current, extreme content, you're being disingenuous at best, or outright refusing to see how devastating it is to community sentiment torwards both roles. It doesn't matter if it's a "super optimized static" or whatever, it flat out should not be possible.

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Woah I need some links showing teams running 2 tank 6 DPS in Extremes and raids. Even if they somehow are, is it more optimal than running a normal team or just barely doable? Also last I checked most teams aren't even running WAR or PLD. They're mostly running DRK and GNB.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

You know that this isn't "tank versus healers versus dps" right ?

This is a *team* effort, if a single member makes others irrelevant it isn't fair nor fun. Especially if it is easy to do so.
Soloing bosses is fun, when it's a challenge. Not when it's just because other players are optionals.

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That logic goes both ways though, why should the rest suffer because the healer can't keep up? They also feel irrelevant when the healer dies, now there's less scrutiny towards healers which should be a positive.

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Originally Posted by Oextra

Woah I need some links showing teams running 2 tank 6 DPS in Extremes and raids. Even if they somehow are, is it more optimal than running a normal team or just barely doable? Also last I checked most teams aren't even running WAR or PLD. They're mostly running DRK and GNB.

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ithout-Healers

Both were cleared within two weeks of the expansion's official launch. Each run takes about 10 mins (one 9 mins, the other 11). There's just not enough unavoidable damage going out in current content, and what little that is going out is spaced out enough you don't need a healer to survive it.
It's been the talk of the Healer section for a few days now.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

That logic goes both ways though, why should the rest suffer because the healer can't keep up? They also feel irrelevant when the healer dies, now there's less scrutiny towards healers which should be a positive.

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It would be a positive if it wasn't for the fact that healers have almost nothing to do when they're not healing. If you're not healing your only other option is to DPS and your DPS is just spamming one button over and over and refreshing a dot every 30 seconds. It just gets old after a while, especially since your DPS rotation doesn't change at all since you get it at level 1.

I wouldn't mind less scrutiny or the team relying on healers to survive if I had more to do as a healer. As it stands now though, the team relying on me is all I've got left. You take that, you might as well not have any healers.