Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

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Originally Posted by Nishira

I don’t know Jirah, I meant that sincerely when I said I don’t know. Would I like to see some changes in the formula as it has evolved over time? Yes absolutely. Do I think going back to what was is realistic? I think that’s automatically considered ‘niche’ these days. And that’s just not what game devs will put a lot of their resources in. I’m trying to figure out what would work and I come up blank myself (good thing I’m not a game dev :D )

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Evolving and going back don’t mix, we need to adapts and evolve to what’s given not just simply regress to what we moved on from. And contrary to everyone here, also doesn’t mean stagnate and not do anything with it as well or make it more trivial.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Why are we discussing economics? I hope people know we don’t want causal content to go away right? I’m fully aware how everyone overreacts to suggestions but again we just want improvements of the dungeon design as it’s the only explorative content in the game as raids are just trials, this doesn’t mean “ make it Hardcore” nor does it mean “Make it too difficult to comprehend” if you cleared Dancing plague or SoS or Eden 4,8,11 then it shouldn’t be a tall order to ask for some more variables, at the very least have tanks do something else now that aggro is a non issue.

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Because in a subscription model economics will always be important. I agree that dungeons are really easy now but Square have gone in that direction for a reason. I also urge caution on assuming difficulty should be decided by MMO veterans or people invested enough into the game to talk on forums about it.

As an older gamer I know plenty of people irl who have plenty of spare money to spend, but not much time. I'm the only one who has played MMO's though, so to me this game is kinda easy until you get to the harder stuff. My Brother, who recently started playing is a veteran of hardcore RTS games and sim games. He is good at games but MMO's are new to him. As a result, he finds some dungeons challenging. He has done really well at learning the game but he started at 0. He tells me of his experiences and I've watched some of his sprout only runs, where there is no veteran in sight. It's a different world to the one I inhabit let me tell you.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

The actual majority of players are indifferent. They simply play the game as it is not saying anything or making any waves or ripples. They play it as it is as long as they get an amount of enjoyment from it they feel is sufficient to pay a sub for (provided they aren't just playing the free version). They stick around because it's something they can play with their friends either IRL or the ones they made in game. There are also those that stick around simply because they have a completionist mentality and want to see how the game ends. The actual majority will just take any changes that happen and roll with it making any adjustments needed to keep going as they have been.

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This is the truth, really.

People talk as if ARR dungeon or boss design was killing the game active population or something. Guess what? The game was still growing. Slowly, but it was.
Dungeon bosses causing wipes occasionally is being mentioned here as if it was a huge crisis. Yeah I was there when there were always at least 1 person dying in some of those fights basically every run. Yeah I had parties wiping a few times. Didn't make a big deal of it.
There is a massive gap between the level of challenge those old encounters (in their original state, and for their time) and dungeons and something like the infamous Alexander tier that "nearly killed the raid scene" as some like to echo.
Most people would be mildly annoyed about dungeons being less passive than they are now AT WORST. They don't care too much as long as they're still interested in the MSQ, characters, music, setting, activities and there are enough playable jobs they enjoy using.
Both people like me who HATE current non high-end content design AND people who are vocal with the "we must protect the casuals!" speech are a vocal minority. The majority just adapts with it and do not manifest themselves outside their own circle of friends, if even.

I dont see anyone trying to "protect the casuals" I see people trying to explain why they matter.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Because in a subscription model economics will always be important. I agree that dungeons are really easy now but Square have gone in that direction for a reason. I also urge caution on assuming difficulty should be decided by MMO veterans or people invested enough into the game to talk on forums about it.

As an older gamer I know plenty of people irl who have plenty of spare money to spend, but not much time. I'm the only one who has played MMO's though, so to me this game is kinda easy until you get to the harder stuff. My Brother, who recently started playing is a veteran of hardcore RTS games and sim games. He is good at games but MMO's are new to him. As a result, he finds some dungeons challenging. He has done really well at learning the game but he started at 0. He tells me of his experiences and I've watched some of his sprout only runs, where there is no veteran in sight. It's a different world to the one I inhabit let me tell you.

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You can have easy dungeons while still being fun and engaging. Right now, they are neither. Nor do they provide a sense of progression.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

I dont see anyone trying to "protect the casuals" I see people trying to explain why they matter.

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I’ve been dealing with this debate since early SB, and I see every point across. This includes the “protect the casuals” crowd. You have to be incredibly selective on your choice of posts if you can confidently say “I don’t see anyone” in that particular crowd when the major points are for them And them alone. I’m running out of posts for the day so I’ll just say this, dungeon design can use some spice here and there, not to undermine the point of casual content nor to tear it down but to integrate a bit more thought into them. I mean for crying out loud you can go afk in relict and only do snort and win, or better yet don’t do any tank buffs, or even attack outside of 1 or 2 aoes and still can pass it successfully due to how under-tuned and how pointless mechanics are. I want less of that and more of what SB dungeons or HW dungeons brought to the table, hell even a few leveling dungeons in SHB were ok, but fall flat and boring when it comes to 80s

Do not start owning up the "silent majority".
It leads down to even trashier arguments.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Evolving and going back don’t mix, we need to adapts and evolve to what’s given not just simply regress to what we moved on from. And contrary to everyone here, also doesn’t mean stagnate and not do anything with it as well or make it more trivial.

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I think I haven’t seen many advocating in this thread to have it remain where it is.

Some do, they enjoy it as it is and enjoy the fact it doesn’t take too much brainpower to clear. Which is a valid point, whether someone else likes the consequences of it or not. So I think we can safely conclude some are actually happy with it the way it is now. Some don’t want it to be harder because dungeons will take longer, and they’ll get even more frustrated with other players not playing great. Some worry it’ll give reason for a rise in elitism and more people getting kicked, which, all things considered, isn’t farfetched when I think on how that played out in other games I’ve played. Some feel it is sufficiently hard for new(er) players and I have to say as a new player myself it’s a lot to take in every time with all the different boss abilities and mechanics. This obviously changes once you get more familiar with content but it’s something to keep in mind when you design content everyone is funneled through. I’m just giving a few examples of why people may oppose change, I’m sure there are more.

Personally I feel boss fights in this game are fun, with a lot of interesting mechanics. It’s obvious they put a lot of effort into that. I do think the general flow of dungeons could be changed, I get the hallways 3 packs of trash complaints. I’d suggest looking into that if anyone asked for my opinion ;) But what I’d replace it with I’m not sure. Tougher trash? I think many would just find that annoying. More intricate layout? Probably the same. More optional events? People would skip that for maximum efficiency if they can. A lot has been tried to entice players to play differently and I think often it feels like needless and frustrating obstacles to the finish line. That’s why I say I don’t know what would be an amazing alternative.

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Originally Posted by Nishira

I think I haven’t seen many advocating in this thread to have it remain where it is.

Some do, they enjoy it as it is and enjoy the fact it doesn’t take too much brainpower to clear. Which is a valid point, whether someone else likes the consequences of it or not. So I think we can safely conclude some are actually happy with it the way it is now. Some don’t want it to be harder because dungeons will take longer, and they’ll get even more frustrated with other players not playing great. Some worry it’ll give reason for a rise in elitism and more people getting kicked, which, all things considered, isn’t farfetched when I think on how that played out in other games I’ve played. Some feel it is sufficiently hard for new(er) players and I have to say as a new player myself it’s a lot to take in every time with all the different boss abilities and mechanics. This obviously changes once you get more familiar with content but it’s something to keep in mind when you design content everyone is funneled through. I’m just giving a few examples of why people may oppose change, I’m sure there are more.

Personally I feel boss fights in this game are fun, with a lot of interesting mechanics. It’s obvious they put a lot of effort into that. I do think the general flow of dungeons could be changed, I get the hallways 3 packs of trash complaints. I’d suggest looking into that if anyone asked for my opinion ;) But what I’d replace it with I’m not sure. Tougher trash? I think many would just find that annoying. More intricate layout? Probably the same. More optional events? People would skip that for maximum efficiency if they can. A lot has been tried to entice players to play differently and I think often it feels like needless and frustrating obstacles to the finish line. That’s why I say I don’t know what would be an amazing alternative.

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Alot of the issues stem from japanese level design being absolute trash tier.

or maybe the west is just wrong in their mentality and the dungeon design is fine and in the end japan is all that matter anyway if the japanese players think its fine its fine but if you need this challenge you seem to crave I hear there some game called World of Warcraft waiting for you .... their obsession with challenge turned the playerbase into a complete toxic cesspool

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

or maybe the west is just wrong in their mentality and the dungeon design is fine and in the end japan is all that matter anyway if the japanese players think its fine its fine but if you need this challenge you seem to crave I hear there some game called World of Warcraft waiting for you .... their obsession with challenge turned the playerbase into a complete toxic cesspool

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Japanese level design has been trash for awhile now. This isn't exclusive to FF14. From Software is an exception.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Japanese level design has been trash for awhile now. This isn't exclusive to FF14. From Software is an exception.

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According to you but there is a culture difference at work here and the people who matter aka the people this game was made for aka the japanese like the game how it is

in the grand scheme the United States or Europe don't matter the game can live on asia alone

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

According to you but there is a culture difference at work here and the people who matter aka the people this game was made for aka the japanese like the game how it is

in the grand scheme the United States or Europe don't matter the game can live on asia alone

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It's rather bold of you to speak for all of the japanese. It has nothing to do with "culture", and everything to do with objectively bad level design.

Like i said according to you and who are you to judge good level design? lets see your CV about all the games you've work on .. no don't have one? then i guess you are not in a position to judge what is and what is not good design like most of us

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

Like i said according to you and who are you to judge good level design? lets see your CV about all the games you've work on .. no don't have one? then i guess you are not in a position to judge what is and what is not good design like most of us

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Wait, who are YOU to judge what is/is not. Who is "us".

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Wait, who are YOU to judge what is/is not. Who is "us".

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so it becomes a no you huh ... well there nothing to discuss then

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

so it becomes a no you huh ... well there nothing to discuss then

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I'm not the one implying they are qualified to make assessments.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

It's rather bold of you to speak for all of the japanese. It has nothing to do with "culture", and everything to do with objectively bad level design.

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Well that depends on what the design philosophy is, doesn't it. If the design is supposed to give experienced players an immersive, dynamic and challenging environment then yes, it's bad design. On the other hand if the design is for easy going content everyone can complete, even the easiest to challenge players in the game, on a daily basis in 15 minutes or less with very little stress and arguing, then the design makes much more sense.

People really do struggle to argue objectively on topics like this, just because you find them easy and boring, that makes them easy and boring full stop. No, you might not like them but others are having fun with them, Square have all the data, they know how much this content is being played and seem very happy to pitch it at this level of difficulty and devote large resources towards it every patch.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Well that depends on what the design philosophy is, doesn't it. If the design is supposed to give experienced players an immersive, dynamic and challenging environment then yes, it's bad design. On the other hand if the design is for easy going content everyone can complete, even the easiest to challenge players in the game, on a daily basis in 15 minutes or less with very little stress and arguing, then the design makes much more sense.

People really do struggle to argue objectively on topics like this, just because you find them easy and boring, that makes them easy and boring full stop. No, you might not like them but others are having fun with them, Square have all the data, they know how much this content is being played and seem very happy to pitch it at this level of difficulty and devote large resources towards it every patch.

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Not talking about whether they are fun or entertaining. Nor is it difficulty, as difficulty =/=level design. Again, this isn't exclusive to FF14. FF13 was also heavily criticized for this, and again with FF7R.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Not talking about whether they are fun or entertaining. Nor is it difficulty, as difficulty =/=level design.

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But that is the point fun doesn't have to equal difficult entertaining doesn't have to equal hard there is nothing wrong with the design either.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

But that is the point fun doesn't have to equal difficult entertaining doesn't have to equal hard there is nothing wrong with the design either.

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That isn't what I said, at all.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Not talking about whether they are fun or entertaining. Nor is it difficulty, as difficulty =/=level design. Again, this isn't exclusive to FF14. FF13 was also heavily criticized for this, and again with FF7R.

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What exactly is your problem with the current dungeons then? You seem very vocal about how "trash" they are yet apparently you aren't saying they are boring or too easy. What is is you expect from content designed for the entire player base?

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

What exactly is your problem with the current dungeons then? You seem very vocal about how "trash" they are yet apparently you aren't saying they are boring or too easy. What is is you expect from content designed for the entire player base?

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They are glorified hallways. I know they are boring and incredibly easy, but that is an issue separate from level design.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

They are glorified hallways. I know they are boring and incredibly easy, but that is an issue separate from level design.

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Cool, how did it work out when Square gave us options on which path to take then? From my memory everyone quickly memorized the "correct" route and ignored the rest of the dungeon. The closest thing I can imagine to a complex dungeon design that could work would be Delve from FFXI. What people did there was either get lost and killed, moan about having to kill tons of useless trash trying to find the boss or use illegal mods to find the boss they wanted, runs timing out before they could find the boss, or while fighting it were not uncommon. Only with like minded friends could you really expect a successful chilled out exploration type experience, random pugs didn't really provide it, certainly not on a consistent basis.

FFXIV dungeons are designed to be completed quickly, daily, consistently and with a random group of players using random jobs without anyone getting lost or anyone getting picked on. Their design works fine, it's the philosophy you don't like and that's completely understandable, you can please some of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all the time.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Cool, how did it work out when Square gave us options on which path to take then? From my memory everyone quickly memorized the "correct" route and ignored the rest of the dungeon.

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I'm not sure why we're assuming that the only way for dungeons not to feel like mere unvaried hallways is for us to have side-routes that get one no nearer to the core objective...

One (bad) approach does not make for an exhaustive list of possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Cool, how did it work out when Square gave us options on which path to take then? From my memory everyone quickly memorized the "correct" route and ignored the rest of the dungeon.

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actually, in brayflox longstop there is a big room with a few packs. Every time i get brayflox longstop the party seems to take a different path through that big room. We could have more dungeons like that where rather than being a literal tunnel, its more of a big room with mobs.

aurum vale's first room is quite similar to this. the reason pulling big in aurum vale is so dangerous is because classes dont have the means to handle that much damage at that level. we could easily have another aurum vale with our high level kits and it wouldn't be nearly as disastrous, just like brayflox big room isn't.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Square likely has terabytes of metrics data floating around on their servers which is literally the only thing they need to make profitable decisions.

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Ahh, yes, that metrics-driven decision making that has worked so well for Ian Hazzikostas or has offered us the objectively (metrically-proven) 'better' experiences of microtransaction hell, etc.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm not sure why we're assuming that the only way for dungeons not to feel like mere unvaried hallways is for us to have side-routes that get one no nearer to the core objective...

One (bad) approach does not make for an exhaustive list of possibilities.

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True, but I just think that players will very quickly find the fastest route to finishing a dungeon and insist on that. Square could come up with the greatest dungeon layout in history but players are like water, they seek out the line of least resistance.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

actually, in brayflox longstop there is a big room with a few packs. Every time i get brayflox longstop the party seems to take a different path through that big room. We could have more dungeons like that where rather than being a literal tunnel, its more of a big room with mobs.

aurum vale's first room is quite similar to this. the reason pulling big in aurum vale is so dangerous is because classes dont have the means to handle that much damage at that level. we could easily have another aurum vale with our high level kits and it wouldn't be nearly as disastrous, just like brayflox big room isn't.

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I like those area's too, there isn't much decision making going on though, the tank just picks their favourite route. I don't think more area's like that would be a problem though and I'd welcome it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ahh, yes, that metrics-driven decision making that has worked so well for Ian Hazzikostas or has offered us the objectively (metrically-proven) 'better' experiences of microtransaction hell, etc.

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Wow has done a bad job of integrating metrics into their decision making, all game companies use them though. The art of making good decisions is understanding the relationship between metrics and feedback, Square seem to have a good handle on this, Blizzard are obviously terrible at it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ahh, yes, that metrics-driven decision making that has worked so well for Ian Hazzikostas or has offered us the objectively (metrically-proven) 'better' experiences of microtransaction hell, etc.

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I may sound hopelessly naive but personally I have the impression with FF14 that all they want, and want quite passionately, is to give players an experience they genuinely enjoy. With the way they design dungeons, the thing that strikes me most is how they try to protect players from other players. Not just for revenue (tho it no doubt plays a role) but also because they feel responsible for the experience people have in this game. In that sense I feel you can’t compare the two companies I think, their motivations, to me at least, feel very different.

In that sense I trust the decision to make dungeons the way they do.

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Originally Posted by Nishira

I may sound hopelessly naive but personally I have the impression with FF14 that all they want, and want quite passionately, is to give players an experience they genuinely enjoy. With the way they design dungeons, the thing that strikes me most is how they try to protect players from other players. Not just for revenue (tho it no doubt plays a role) but also because they feel responsible for the experience people have in this game. In that sense I feel you can’t compare the two companies I think, their motivations, to me at least, feel very different.

In that sense I trust the decision to make dungeons the way they do.

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I don't think it's a coincidence that both WoW and CoD are both cash cows for Activision and seem to share so many problems. Both player bases are unhappy with their game and the route causes seem to be lack of feedback response, tone deaf decision making and far too much emphasis on profits over enjoyable gaming experiences.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Wow has done a bad job of integrating metrics into their decision making, all game companies use them though. The art of making good decisions is understanding the relationship between metrics and feedback, Square seem to have a good handle on this, Blizzard are obviously terrible at it.

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That's precisely my point, though. Metrics won't supplant the need for long-term planning or vision.

WoW has made its fair number of negative examples, but can we honestly say XIV hasn't been following suit in its own way?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

WoW has made its fair number of negative examples, but can we honestly say XIV hasn't been following suit in its own way?

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Um, I wouldn't agree with that to be honest. I think the player/dev relationship is much healthier in FFXIV. Not everything Square has done has been a roaring success with the players obviously but I do think they at least try to keep us happy. Blizzard try to keep the shareholders happy and the players hooked, seems like a very different approach to me.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's precisely my point, though. Metrics won't supplant the need for long-term planning or vision.

WoW has made its fair number of negative examples, but can we honestly say XIV hasn't been following suit in its own way?

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To be fair, metrics are far from the issue when it comes to WoW's many problems.

Blizzard is effectively the hostage of Activision, arguably the most profit hungry company in the entire gaming industry. I doubt Activision cares one bit about WoW's internal metrics or long-term planning or vision; they only see the immediate profits and how to create systems that force players to play for longer to squeeze sub money from them in the short term. Ion is just a yes-man for Activision at this point. Speaking from my own time working in the game industry, publishers alone can be the most annoying force to deal with when it comes to creative decisions. Let alone a publisher like EA/Activision that is insanely profit hungry to the point of sticking the metaphorical middle finger to the gamer's face because they know the playerbase will still eat up the big franchises they put out.

Compared to Yoshi-P who isn't beholden to some higher up publisher, and was even promoted to the lead of creative business unit III, showing that his fellow leads on the board have much respect for him. That being said, FF14 already has its long-term plan and vision. 6-7 years of consistent design in how certain types of content are tuned is a really hard statistic to ignore; FF14 has been advertising the demographics each form of content they create is aimed at for a long time now. Every piece of content in the game has its purpose and will not be deviating from said purpose this late into the life cycle of the game.

Rather than wasting time asking Yoshi-P for harder 4 man dungeons which have been so rock solidly integrated into the design of this game as the easy, spammable daily task, people should be asking him for more unique 4 man content like PoTD. I think asking for more unique 4 man content will go much further in their feedback than asking for harder dungeons, which I can pretty much guarantee any feedback of such is likely just auto-deleted by their sorting AI program.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Compared to Yoshi-P who isn't beholden to some higher up publisher, and was even promoted to the lead of creative business unit III, showing that his fellow leads on the board have much respect for him.

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Yoshida absolutely is beholden to a higher up publisher. It's not as an invasive a publisher as Activision, but he's not suddenly freed from commitments. We have seen this many times already, such in trends to focus design around sale points (see the many abilities that had no reason to be abilities outside of the fact that actions demo and sell better than traits) and iconizing grinds like those of our relics.

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Rather than wasting time asking Yoshi-P for harder 4 man dungeons which have been so rock solidly integrated into the design of this game as the easy, spammable daily task, people should be asking him for more unique 4 man content like PoTD. I think asking for more unique 4 man content will go much further in their feedback than asking for harder dungeons, which I can pretty much guarantee any feedback of such is likely just thrown out the window immediately.

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And it's funny that you're passing something as broad as asking for more than a barebone, grinded experience in a content genre as staple as dungeons as somehow "waste[ful]" or, unless your grouping here was coincidental, negatively profits-minded.

Most of those asking for interesting dungeons are the same people who asked for unique and polished 4-man content previously. What did they get instead? The barebone grindfest that is PotD and HoH... and even further dumbed down dungeon grinds. And here's the thing: giving the option for dungeons to hold difficulty sufficient for their mechanics to act as actual mechanics, rather than ignorable suggestions, not only allows for more engaging experiences but reduces the development costs otherwise wasted in building those dungeons. It takes virtually zero time to simply slap a HP and damage modifier onto a dungeon. And for that you get greatly increased engagement. Virtually no cost. Large, centralized gains, especially for those who have already enjoyed your game, but wish there was something more that wasn't shuffling them off to the side again.

But, alas, what's the one thing a mob stat scaler doesn't do, despite its efficiency? It doesn't sound sexy. It doesn't sell. Because gods forbid it's something that makes sense to those who actually play the given content and enjoy its genre and possibilities, rather than merely attracts people to it (historically, to then quickly become nonsensical, like our dungeons' present scaling).

...Which is why we instead build altogether new content genres from scratch, badly fail to flesh them out, and treat the playerbase as unappeasable if they're not thereby satisfied, I suppose...

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I can pretty much guarantee any feedback of such is likely just thrown out the window immediately.

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And yet metrics will save us all, even as any reason for a drop in related playtime, or even subs, can be spun any which way since specific feedback is irrelevant?