The toxicity starting to happen.

Because pre 5pm Asians play and post 5pm, Americans play :P

j/k *runs away*

And already I see 'other sides' to my post.

The bottom line is though, not everyone is going to be up to playing as fast or skilled as you expect them to be.
Not everyone has a great computer or a setup that lets them be efficient. And some seem to forget that.

I play on a couch, desktop monitor on a tv tray, mouse on the couch itself next to me, no mousepad. PS4 controller hooked to the computer, with keyboard because I hate keyboard movement, but need it for typing, and mouse for clicking skills. A completely no desk setup. Before now, it was a crappy laptop.

The ones that expect greatness every dungeon seem to think everyone has a desk and a high-end non-lagging machine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

People don't expect a level 45 Warrior in Stone Vigil to necessarily big pull. They do, however, expect it from a level 77 Malikah's Well, and absolutely so in Expert dungeons as a whole. You're no longer new by that point. And no, unlocking Gunbreaker or jump potions doesn't absolve you. The onus still remains on you to study and practice beforehand.

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And how are new players supposed to magically know that they have to mass pull when nothing ig tell you to do so when using a jump potion then the trust system for a while until 77 ? There is ig no practice to teach you that, and you can totally reach 77, even 80, without being aware that a part of the community you didn't met yet did decide that mass pulling is the norm.

Yes, i did say a part, because new players can very well in their first encounter with others stumble on "it is fine to single pull if you don't feel at ease" ones. Despite what "but tanking is super easy !" people are saying, not everybody is equally skilled at gaming. I sure whished in a crappy run i did lately have that this tank/heal duo would have stop mass pulling when they obviously weren't capable of handling that. We did lose so much time and energy wiping and running all the way back to the mobs multiple times, that we did end up disbanding without clearing the dungeon.

Also i find it quite contradictory that for a certain QTE event there is so much people saying that we have to think of players with disabilities, while for when it comes for mass pulling there is apparently nobody to wonder if single pulling tanks don't have some medical condition that prevent them to play properly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

And already I see 'other sides' to my post.

The bottom line is though, not everyone is going to be up to playing as fast or skilled as you expect them to be.
Not everyone has a great computer or a setup that lets them be efficient. And some seem to forget that.

I play on a couch, desktop monitor on a tv tray, mouse on the couch itself next to me, no mousepad. PS4 controller hooked to the computer, with keyboard because I hate keyboard movement, but need it for typing, and mouse for clicking skills. A completely no desk setup. Before now, it was a crappy laptop.

The ones that expect greatness every dungeon seem to think everyone has a desk and a high-end non-lagging machine.

---

Or physical capability.

I have small hands with limited range of motion due to slight nerve damage. It doesn't hold me back in any MMORPG but this one where I feel like I'm fighting my hot bars instead of the bosses.

So to anyone who's ever done stuff with me...sorry. I don't like that I did whatever I did either. Sure wish I could stop.

I just keep myself out of EX and up content until I massively outlevel it since I just feel like the rotations in this game are more than I will ever be able to comfortably handle (unless they do a prune but a check on forums and reddit kinda confirms nobody else has this issue, more people wish there were MORE buttons so I can't ask for this).

MMO mouse could help maybe. People shouldn't be expected to just have those, though. And so far I haven't met one small enough for my dumb mouse hands.

Sorry, bit of a rant.

My point is whether due to physical ability or setup not everyone is on equal footing. So I agree with your sentiment, yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

Summary: Whats with the drama?

Any one else notice this or am I on drugs?

---

No you are not, my friend-- indeed, you are not and there are many of us who have noticed this toxicity madness eons ago.

More importantly, I absolutely agree with your edits regarding the "learn to tank" rantings. Unfortunately-- quite often-- a great many people on the forums love to latch onto a single example and maintain a fixated tunnel vision onto that example without understanding the greater context.

Before I go any further, I'm going to disclose two more things to you:

• I actually remember reading your post within a few hours of it populating onto the forums about ten days ago-- at the time I read it, I nodded in agreement, smirked at some of the responses then had to go offline. Today, it populated again and I thought it was time I chimed in on your remarks.
  
• Two, the toxicity has been permeating this game exponentially for almost eight years now-- I saw the seed beginnings of that toxicity as far back December 2012 on the 2.0 Alpha test forums.

Now that we got that out of the way, bear with me a little longer-- and allow me to paint a picture of an ancient history of the FFXIV community from 1.0 which will help you grasp how one aspect of this dangerous toxicity has evolved. This will be a long post and many will not agree with my rant so grab some tea and biscuits beforehand. I'll mention a lot of history here-- some might be out of context, some might be disagreeable, some might be slightly skewed due to fuzzy memory-- but I assure you that all of it will be based on a foundation of truth and facts as best as I remember it.

When FFXIV 1.0 began, a large amount of its initial player base were FFXI players; in fact, the core theme for FFXIV-- with its three main starter cities and original five races-- were all loosely based upon the FFXI universe. In a nutshell, this was an intentional move by SE so as to provide various incentives for FFXI players to make the switch over to FFXIV-- and after almost seven years of playing FFXI, this is what made me start playing FFXIV during the beta of 1.0 in September 2010. That, and the incredibly well-woven FFXII tones that the Devs incorporated within the game from the start-- I've always been a massive fan of Ivalice.

FFXI was and continues to remain a beautiful game that brought Japanese and western players together across two platforms (PC and PS2)-- it was the first cross-platform MMORPG ever created. The Japanese players had a year-plus start on everyone else but their receptive attitude towards the new western players-- despite the language barrier-- helped set the tone for a mostly warm-hearted global community.

This warm hearted community could be felt when people actually used the bow and hug emote when greeting each other-- it could be seen when higher level players would do "Zone protection" for new players in Dunes, Qufim and Khazam. It could be seen when people would help random players in their subjob quests or in helping new players make it to Jeuno and so on and so on. And believe it or not, that feeling of unity is still felt (for the most part) in FFXI till this very day.

Bear with me here-- I know some of these places might sound weird or strange but FFXI players who read this will know exactly what I'm talking about. Don't get me wrong, everything wasn't completely rosey-- there were end game linkshell fights (internal and external) that evolved into into seasonal dramas, there were stories of thefts, dishonorable PK killings here and there-- but for an MMORPG game, FFXI definitely still had one of the best global communities in gaming.

Naturally, when FFXI players began transferring over to FFXIV in 1.0, that sense of unified camaraderie carried over and was maintained (for the most part). People were cordial to one another, helped one another-- and it's that same sense of togetherness that made us all put up the Gobbue wall and fight side by side till the very end when Dalamud came crashing down.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...55bc12826.webp

Which leads me to my next point: 1.0 eventually shut down in November 2012 and Alpha testing for 2.0 commenced in mid-December 2012, to which I again had the humble honor of being invited to play. When I first logged into New Gridania on the Alpha build, I was totally stunned by the game's transformation and knew then and there that Yoshi had delivered a winner.

This was exactly the point where things began to get sour with the first hints of toxicity. During the alpha test, there were many 1.0 players invited together with an influx of new players who came from a bevy of other MMORPG games. Right off the bat, several of these "new" trolls players complained and whinged about EVERYTHING.

It was beyond ridiculous.

So ridiculous and so irritating-- there was so much whinging on certain threads of the Alpha test forums that several 1.0 players decided to create separate threads -- away from all the negativity -- so that we could exchange our 1.0 player identities, discuss solid ideas for future expansions, and provide clear concise honest feedback to the Dev team. While we were busy providing suggestions for quest lines, game mechanics and cheering on the SE marketing team to push for this game into China, South Korea and Hong Kong, these negative buffoons were constantly tossing toxic comments onto the forums-- it wasn't rampant, it wasn't distracting from the positives, but it was there.

The toxicity continued to rear it's head more often as we moved into the beta stage and we began to confirm this perpetual pattern from several of the influx of new testers who came from WoW, Guild Wars 2 and a few other MMOs. Don't even get me started about how they actually dissed Soken's music, complained about not being able to progress past level 20, complained about not being able to get around the new Limsa, and even complained with their stupid arguments over the pixilation of the grass.

Yes indeed, these wretches didn't know what to complain about anymore, so they complained about the grass. The freaking grass-- I mean... seriously?

Thus, as we moved towards launch day in August 2013, a large amount of hardcore 1.0 FFXIV players -- exasperated and fed up with the whinging-- decided that they would isolate themselves from the new players once early access commenced and just focused on enjoying the game with mainly their FC mates. There are a lot of intricate nuances involved when establishing the approaches of veteran casual players with veteran hardcore players at the time, but I have no need to delve into that here. What is important to note is that there was another contingent of veterans who truly wanted to play with newer players and coach them on how to maximize their efforts on high end gameplay but were met with the usual clichéd entitled, arrogant yet ignorant responses:

• I don't need to watch a video
• Shut up, I know what I'm doing
• You don't pay my sub

Hence, at some point many of these veterans who wanted to help just shrugged and said-- "Screw this, I don't need to interact with this trash. I'll only hang out with my own mates, with other veterans, and develop a cold wall."

Several new players might have viewed this behaviour as elitism but if one examined this whole situation through another facet of reasoning, could anyone blame the veteran players? Many of the new players also mocked the legacy status of the veteran players out of spite and jealousy, they mocked veterans when they proffered a lending hand or gave advice on game dynamics.

Heck, I've been mocked a couple times by new players for giving him/her 300k gil-- here's the context: Back when ARR started, I was already quite wealthy even after the Devs took 90% of the wealth we had amassed from 1.0. As such, I would sometimes stand in Limsa giving out words of encouragement and money to new players while I waited for our Coil raids to start.

And yet I got mocked for it by entitled little snots.

Best believe that I stopped donating money to new players till this day. That's not all-- since 4.0 launched, I very very rarely help new players when they shout for help-- I only respond back to the polite quiet singular tells asking for guidance and then I go all out, helping them. But in general, I just maintain a very distant stance with new players-- and if they act up, I calmly put them in their place and also remind them that players like us have played long enough to have our names in the freaking credits for the game.

Sheesh, I even stopped greeting or responding to greetings whenever I go into Duty Finder -- I almost never even say anything in chat. If the party is bad, I simply disband and take the 30-minute penalty-- I have nor the time nor patience to banter back and forth with these insignificant jokers-- besides, I can always craft, chat to friends or log onto my other characters on the European or Japanese servers. Most of the time, I rather prefer to get my weekly tomes through hunts and as one of my old friends once said on discord (he's a hardcore style player):

"I'm a Legacy, I'm true FFXIV royalty, I'm on the lists of some world firsts, I've been endorsed by Yoshida himself, I have no need to run the filthy dungeons with these entitled stupid plebs"

And truth be told, we all laughed at the time after he said it but I can totally emphasize with his thinking. I also AFK at my secluded spots in Crystarium so I don't have to be near the toxicity-- yes indeed, I waited 14 years to access that place, so that's where my main character always hangs out. At some point, toxicity reaches a level whereby one just develops an impressive immunity towards it-- and veterans have now developed all sorts of brilliant strategies to cope with it. What is indeed fascinating though is that the toxicity is extremely much lower on the Japanese servers-- I have another charcater on Aegis server that I sometimes play when I need to hang out with my Japanese and New Zealand friends and a lot of the toxic crap is almost nonexistent there. Yet it blatantly persists on several of the Western servers.

Here's another minor example of toxicity -- Earlier today, I joined a Duty Finder on my main tank job (on Primal) for Deltascape so I could farm runs for the mount. When I joined, I noticed that a lot of them were new players and this got me weary but I maintained a calm silence. After just one run, the leader and his/her mates suddenly kicked me because they apparently assumed I was wearing level 50 gear-- I literally smirked while reading the chat and kept silent-- I don't banter words with fools and knew it was just trolls being toxic. I however did find it funny that I had glammed my level 50 Warrior of Light gear over my lvl 500 gear only because I wanted to honour a certain character from the 5.3 MSQ and because of this-- and I kid you not-- a group of toxic snots thought it would be acceptable to use that as an excuse to kick me. All because I glammed my Paladin from this:

https://i.imgur.com/Vns0WtH.jpg

... to this.

https://i.imgur.com/ibw5L4g.jpg

And thus, the toxic party leader and his mates decided to substantiate the stupid toxic excuse that I was "undergeared". Yes indeed, that was their flimsy excuse for trolling. The ignorant idiots -- drunk on the illusion of power -- decided to abuse the vote kick function once they got their clear. Mind you, the leader's behaviour was already sketchy from the onset-- were they a new FC group just trolling on DF? Don't know, don't care-- heck, perhaps these idiots wanted to invite one of their mates to join the party and their toxic solution was to simply kick me with an outrageous excuse. A few minutes later, one of the party members actually messaged me to say he/she thought that was unnecessary, they had loved my tanking and had subsequently disbanded after seeing what the leader did. I ignored the message and shrugged -- not my problem. Sod off mate.

An hour later, this same party leader who kicked me had the audacity to send me a message, begging for a tank for an Alphascape run. Alright you muppet, you're playing with fire now. I simply raised an amused eyebrow, /blisted all the idiots and then sent in a GM report. Job done.

This example and subsequent reaction here is one of the many catalysts for the chain reactions that have emerged from this toxic environment-- ultimately, vets will simply continue to dissociate themselves even more from helping newer players. It's their loss after all-- after this happened, I was already logged onto my secondary charcater on Diabolos, chugging along.

Furthermore, like hundreds of other veterans, I rarely come to the forums anymore because its just filled with so much ridiculous toxicity and whinging... emphasis on the word "whinging". To whine is one thing but to whinge is to complain to an unreasonable extent. Sadly, that's what most of the forums have now succumbed to... disillusioned entitlement, complaints, rants, insults, racial slurs, negativity and yet barely any real posts with solid critical suggestions.

So no my friend-- you are not tripping on drugs at all-- this is the sad reality of the game environment as it were in this day and age. I find it hilariously ironic that many of these toxic players are beginning to wonder why their progression has began to stall.

The freaking irony of it all will eventually become apparent.

I think you're going a bit far, Ramesses.

Yes people are being toxic, but that has nothing to do with Legacy/Non-legacy. The only difference is some of us started post-2.0.

I was one of the people who didn't appreciate Limsa in the 2.0 Beta. So I started this character in Gridania and deleted the other character.

Disliking Limsa has absolutely 0 in common with toxicity. In fact I'd argue your post is extremely toxic against non-Legacy players. I've been around many many players who aren't Legacy and are extremely friendly, I talk to these people nearly every day and have become good friends of mine.

And about that person who messaged you apologizing for their party leader, that was a polite move, especially saying they loved your tanking. You not replying to them and ignoring them because of the party leader is toxic.

When players (all of us) have an issue with the game, we have a right to demand answers on the forums.
Vieras having some fascinator style hats but not others is an issue and people are right to complain.
Healers losing half their kits are right to complain.
Monks having extremely niche situational skills are right to complain.
Players trying to get housing having to go to unhealthy lengths clicking on a placard for 16h are right to complain.

Don't lump these other people into the toxic crowd. They are trying to better the game. Them being legacy or not has nothing to do with it.

That's all I have to say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

Snip

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All the new people destroying your game, eh.

I guess... on behalf of all the new people playing FFXIV, I am sorry that you feel that way towards us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

Hence, at some point many of these veterans who wanted to help just shrugged and said-- "Screw this, I don't need to interact with this trash. I'll only hang out with my own mates, with other veterans, and develop a cold wall."

Several new players might have viewed this behaviour as elitism but if one examined this whole situation through another facet of reasoning, could anyone blame the veteran players?

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Yes, sensible people can. You're basically saying 'vets have an excuse for treating people like trash, so treating them like trash is not treating them like trash'. Having a 'good reason' to be elitist towards others does not change that you're being elitist towards them. That's almost textbook elitism right there 'I consider myself better, so I will consider everyone else to be trash'.

Do you think there's not a reason casual players get testy when useless 'constructive criticism' is leveled at them by people they've spent all of ten minutes playing with, who make it clear as you have they consider said players to be trash? That years of people calling them trash, going on rants and then abusing votekick functions hasn't similarly worn out their tolerance for self styled elitists who nonetheless need to pug their runs?

For every good top end player with actual good advice willing to help others, there's a hundred 'elitists' who just want to abuse their power/knowledge and bash other players, who do things like -

Quote:

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And thus, the toxic party leader and his mates decided to substantiate the stupid toxic excuse that I was "undergeared". Yes indeed, that was their flimsy excuse for trolling. The ignorant idiots -- drunk on the illusion of power -- decided to abuse the vote kick function once they got their clear. Mind you, the leader's behaviour was already sketchy from the onset-- were they a new FC group just trolling on DF? Don't know, don't care-- heck, perhaps these idiots wanted to invite one of their mates to join the party and their toxic solution was to simply kick me with an outrageous excuse. A few minutes later, one of the party members actually messaged me to say he/she thought that was unnecessary, they had loved my tanking and had subsequently disbanded after seeing what the leader did. I ignored the message and shrugged -- not my problem. Sod off mate.

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- and you're even using that as an excuse, that you ran into a bunch of elitists looking to deliberately ruin someone's day using one of those typical elitist excuses 'undergeared' 'poor parses' 'does not have the achievement', etc... and you wonder why people who encounter that from elitists constantly are no less annoyed by elitists than you are?

Quote:

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"I'm a Legacy, I'm true FFXIV royalty, I'm on the lists of some world firsts, I've been endorsed by Yoshida himself, I have no need to run the filthy dungeons with these entitled stupid plebs"

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Quote:

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Furthermore, like hundreds of other veterans, I rarely come to the forums anymore because its just filled with so much ridiculous toxicity and whinging.

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Which is why when vets do post it's to be toxic and whinge about casuals, a group that basically doesn't frequent these forums in the first place.

Quote:

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Sadly, that's what most of the forums have now succumbed to... disillusioned entitlement, complaints, rants, insults, negativity and yet barely any real posts with solid critical suggestions.

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Did you intentionally describe your own post there for some sort of ironic effect?

I have no doubt you have experienced plenty of toxic players- because all the casual players you're calling trash have too. But people are not as dumb as you think- and if vets are really approaching novices and casuals with the attitude that they are trash, it's abundantly clear, and of course if you treat someone like trash they're going to react like they've just been treated like trash.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

Summary: Whats with the drama?

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Not much but we all need to realize that this is a 7 year old game and the player base has grown since ARR so with a higher player numbers expect higher chances of meeting 'other' types of people. What I have been noticing is the rise of ERP in PF but I guess this is expected since the devs focus shifted from gear progression to glamour and RP. Also this game has gotten progressively easier, thus resulting in less engagement which leads to monotony. I remember standing outside the demon wall in AK to formulate a plan to deal with the bees and how to use the LB. That experience has not been replicated since. I already know where this game is going if they continue down superfluous glamours and savage gear that gets outdated in the next tier after spending so much time to get it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Hate to break it to you, but you have to hit under 30 FPS for inputs to be taken so seldom that it impacts performance. As someone that also clicks everything, your setup has 0 real impact on your ability to play the game. It's just an excuse that you should stop using.

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Dude, are you for real or just trolling? Because you can't be serious. I literally just said the mouse is on the couch next to me. You know what happens when you put a mouse on a couch cushion? It slips, it runs into things, it gets stuck under things, a cat decides to jump up, it loses signal, [insert a million things that can go wrong].

So yes it does have impact. And with lag, yes it can have impact if you're running out of the way of an aoe and your controller decides to disconnect (as PS4 ones do on comptuers frequently) or the laptop decides to lock up and lag.

Things happen. Unforeseen occurrences. It's JUST A GAME. Just because a healer has to resurrect a player who had bad luck, or omg doesn't get through the dungeon in under 5 minutes, or has a wipe, is not the end of the world. It's not like you're keeping a record of kills, and wipes, or something and if you are, .... don't use duty finder where people grinding the MSQ are going to be joining dungeons just because they have to get through it to progress.

If people can't be patient with others or stop and think that not everyone has the same things you do, skill wise, setup, or physical. Then those people really need a break from the internet.

... And this is why people tend to call and hate on 'elitests' because they just make the game not fun to play with others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Yes, sensible people can. You're basically saying 'vets have an excuse for treating people like trash, so treating them like trash is not treating them like trash'. Having a 'good reason' to be elitist towards others does not change that you're being elitist towards them. That's almost textbook elitism right there 'I consider myself better, so I will consider everyone else to be trash'.

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This typically isnt the mindset of a lot of raiders. There is a fundamental difference in understanding you are better or more skilled at something and that those who dont meet your standard are trash. This doesnt mean that there arent high end players who have the view that anyone beneath them in skill is trash, but rather that this typically isn't the default mind set of most high end players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Do you think there's not a reason casual players get testy when useless 'constructive criticism' is leveled at them by people they've spent all of ten minutes playing with, who make it clear as you have they consider said players to be trash? That years of people calling them trash, going on rants and then abusing votekick functions hasn't similarly worn out their tolerance for self styled elitists who nonetheless need to pug their runs?

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You can spin your point in the other direction too. Is there not a reason expert players get testy and call less skilled players trash? I dont know how much of EX or Savage you do, but it is frustrating to go into a duty complete and have people continuously wipe to mechanics in first phase that they should be more than familiar with. Even outside of high end content, seeing someone whos llv 80 wearing 490 gear fail to keep a tank alive on a standard pull, or who eats every single aoe a dungeon boss puts out. Even fights that are pretty damn old with basic mechanics I see people struggle with when they have multiple 80s, and are decently geared. It is frustrating, and double so when asked to step up their level of play to a basic level of competency to get it thrown back in their faces.

Now to be fair, this isnt most interactions, but it happens a bit frequently especially in PF for learing EX and Savage content. I understand not knowing a fight if youve maybe cleared it a few times or are joining a learning party. But weekly reclears where people struggle to do Ramuh and are wearing iLvL 500 gear...come on.

And some of this isnt the players fault. Its been my belief for a little while that the devs are partially to blame. They keep dropping the skill floor instead of holding players feet to the fire a little bit and forcing htem to build up the necessary basic skills to function in end game content without causing a lot of issues. Though if Im going to be even more blunt, if youve been called trash by random people in DF and PF for years, maybe its not other people. Maybe its you and you should step up your game a bit. It's strange that people think that learning to optimize your class and play somehow makes you an elitist. Very rarely are people telling people in casual content to be raid strats max uptime dps hardcore mode. It's a lot more of "Hey, can you use AoEs?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

For every good top end player with actual good advice willing to help others, there's a hundred 'elitists' who just want to abuse their power/knowledge and bash other players, who do things like -

[anecdote here]

- and you're even using that as an excuse, that you ran into a bunch of elitists looking to deliberately ruin someone's day using one of those typical elitist excuses 'undergeared' 'poor parses' 'does not have the achievement', etc... and you wonder why people who encounter that from elitists constantly are no less annoyed by elitists than you are?

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Ive had dungeons runs where someone tried to vote kick me because I had the to suggest people do the boss mechanics properly so we could get through the fight. Ive had FC mates who had hit enrage on bismarck. Not EX, regular. This wasnt just a bunch of sprouts who didnt know the fight. This was people in Ilvl 390 gear (as this was in SB at the time) gear. Ive had trial runs where that literal "you dont pay my sub" nonsense was thrown at fellow players because someone kept messing up and making it harder to get things done.

Behaving that toxicity is just a one way street, that it's just coming from 'elitists' is disingenuous. There are a ton of entitled new players who feel they dont have to play by the rules, play nice, or try to put in effort but expect the same rewards as those who do. And bear in mind, Im still saying that among both veterans and sprouts, the occurrence of elitism or just plain being a jerk is a fairly rare occurrence. But it does occur, and it occurs from both directions at about the same rates. I happen to disagree with your implied perspective, that it is predominately a 'elite' point of view.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Which is why when vets do post it's to be toxic and whinge about casuals, a group that basically doesn't frequent these forums in the first place.

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Most of the vets I tend to see voice their frustrations but with nuance. They want a better class of casuals so that they have a bigger base to play with and more interesting fights to have. Most people have not and will not suggest that "Everyone should be able to do Ultimates by Level 80." Most people have nuanced view and fully understand there will be different levels of play. Which is fine. On occassion you might get the ass who says "If you dont do good on Shiva EX, youre trashtier and should quit the game", but that isnt the majority of opinions. It's been broadly "Look, improve your abilities and reap the benefit of that, but dont demand to make the game easier cause you cant be bothered to invest in improving yourself."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

I have no doubt you have experienced plenty of toxic players- because all the casual players you're calling trash have too. But people are not as dumb as you think- and if vets are really approaching novices and casuals with the attitude that they are trash, it's abundantly clear, and of course if you treat someone like trash they're going to react like they've just been treated like trash.

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Again, flip the position - have a casual go into content and put low effort and expect to be carried and yell at a vet when they offer up well meaning advice. Toxicity cuts both ways. You cant sit here claiming the vets are all elites and Casuals be innocent of any wrong doing. There are plenty of instances where a casual player explodes on a vet for simply suggesting basic things, like using AOE on a pack mob. Hell asking if a player used a jump potion so you can adjust how tanking is handled is toxic and wrong.

People on both sides have been wrong. It's not an elite vs casual issue, its an issue of jerk vs jerk, and trying to quantify which sides has more so the other side can be free to be belligerent is foolish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darsien

-snip-

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What different view? The widespread hatred of casual players is not the different view on these forums it is the norm, with thread after thread giving excuses for why it is acceptable to treat a portion of the playerbase like trash, and why it is not toxic to do so. I read his entire post; referring to players as trash, entitled snots, buffoons, etc... is not something I am going to pretend is not a toxic, elitist point of view. I notice you completely ignored that part in your own post, because you want to act like I called someone out on a toxic mindset with absolutely nothing to back it up, and that becomes easier for you to do if there was nothing to back it up.

'Manipulate' his words? I believe you are the one doing some selective reading here.

I am not the one that made him refer to players as buffoons, trash on numerous occasions, entitled snots, idiots and whingers, there is no manipulation on my part those are the sorts of things he uses to describe human beings playing the game- that is how he, a vet, says vets look at other players- if you want to talk about belittling and talking down to others. You might think that is an acceptable attitude to take towards casual players, as many vets indeed do take it and it shows in abundance, but the way you just brushed that off in your attempt to minimize what I posted is pretty much the crux of the issue.

Players genuinely seem to think that everything casuals do is toxic, while finding so many excuses to brush off toxic behaviour on the elitist end as perfectly fine. I think no better example of it was with the latest streamer to be suspended, with multiple examples of video evidence of him swearing, using slurs and directing his followers by name to harass specific players. Instead of discussing his toxic behaviour and why it was not right, people went to bat for him- explaining how it was 'constructive criticism' to call someone a r#$$$% and then tell his followers to target the guy. And that sort of thing becomes acceptable- because when he was suspended, his followers did just that, taking to harass people who they thought reported him because he had blasted these people by name on his stream, to the point where on reddit multiple people were harassed so much they started posting there to let people know they weren't the ones who reported the guy in the hopes that his followers, who he'd asked to harass people in the past, would stop harassing them.


Casual players are so used to this treatment, of this harassment- whether misplaced or not casual players have come to expect elitists to treat them like trash, because as Ramesses said many vets consider them to be trash. I get exactly what he is saying, that he has encountered a lot of toxic behaviour from a part of the playerbase so vets tend to shut off to them. But that's the same with casuals- they're so used to being attacked by elitists while playing the game that they'll shut off to their advice, with stuff like 'you don't pay my sub'. It's like vets don't consider casuals human, that they understand the reasons for vets shutting off from casuals, but can't possibly understand that casuals have actually very similar reasons for shutting off from elitists.

Now, nobody is stopping Ramesses from having his discussion despite you thinking somehow that I've stopped it, I hardly have the power to stop people from posting about how negatively they view the bulk of the playerbase if I did this forum would lose a lot of its own bulk, and I have never used the reporting function on these forums as I don't believe in silencing people. I also have not pointed out anything unfair despite what you're saying- if someone is going to complain that the people here are entitled, idiotic trash making posts on the forums that are negative, complaining rants without solid critical suggestions, while doing so in a negative, complaining rant without a solid critical suggestion for how to improve things- I am not going to pretend that is not a negative, complaining rant full of insults.

There is nothing wrong with him, or yourself, being critical of casuals, forums posters, or whomever else- but there seems to be this lack of realization from a lot of players here that if you are critical of something you needed to be prepared for others to turn their critical eye in your direction too. If you are going to say that other players are toxic, while also calling them trash among other toxic things- then I don't think it is unfair to be called out for doing so.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that I am the problem he is talking about. Because I have pointed out what he said, and criticized it? If being critical of what others say on these forums is a 'problem', then sure, I guess I am a problem because I will be critical, and worse I will be critical of vets and elitists, players who seem to believe themselves to be exempt from any form of criticism.

Now, if you have something specific you disagree with in my post that you would like to discuss, perhaps start there. I was specific when I responded to him and I have no issues with discussing it further, but without being specific with what you consider to be unfair in what I said I cannot really discuss what you think the problem to be.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

You can spin your point in the other direction too. Is there not a reason expert players get testy and call less skilled players trash? I dont know how much of EX or Savage you do, but it is frustrating to go into a duty complete and have people continuously wipe to mechanics in first phase that they should be more than familiar with. Even outside of high end content, seeing someone whos llv 80 wearing 490 gear fail to keep a tank alive on a standard pull, or who eats every single aoe a dungeon boss puts out. Even fights that are pretty damn old with basic mechanics I see people struggle with when they have multiple 80s, and are decently geared. It is frustrating, and double so when asked to step up their level of play to a basic level of competency to get it thrown back in their faces.

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I do not do EX or Savage at this point, I've been raiding for years in WoW and am burnt out on the systemic toxicity that seems unavoidable in the upper echelons, and I'm so used to hearing it being excused because 'we are better at the game', as if that's a genuine reason for mistreating other people.

Now, I do understand the frustration full well of entering content with players who are messing things up, whether in mythic raiding or LFR, I have been on the high skill end in WoW looking down, and am now on the new end (despite what my profile says I basically didn't play until ShB was announced and only recently hit 80) in FFXIV. There's a fair number of fights I've seen once or twice and don't know inside and out, and with no add ons or in game guides to read up on a boss fight right before like in WoW I can admit I've called my phoenix many times only for the boss to enter an immune stage, and I'm quite aware of how much that'll tank my damage.

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And some of this isnt the players fault. Its been my belief for a little while that the devs are partially to blame. They keep dropping the skill floor instead of holding players feet to the fire a little bit and forcing htem to build up the necessary basic skills to function in end game content without causing a lot of issues. Though if Im going to be even more blunt, if youve been called trash by random people in DF and PF for years, maybe its not other people. Maybe its you and you should step up your game a bit. It's strange that people think that learning to optimize your class and play somehow makes you an elitist. Very rarely are people telling people in casual content to be raid strats max uptime dps hardcore mode. It's a lot more of "Hey, can you use AoEs?"

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Personally, in this game no, I have experienced only a few examples of toxicity from either end, and not towards me but between other party members, though I am not keen on entering the savage/EX group with how the forums seem to accept toxicity towards novice players. I find the guides on SMN a bit daunting when people give it a two minute rotation when it is mixed with mechanic/movement heavy fights that seem designed to make such a rotation guaranteed to break up. And both mechanics and the rotation are things that I've found difficult to practice while just leveling up, since outside of mandatory dungeons there's really no possible way to even get a normal rotation going.

Learning to optimize your play is not really the topic that is concerning- I don't consider a player being the best they possibly can be toxic the same way I don't consider someone lacking skills, not following a guide or just having a low skill ceiling to be toxic. Skill and attitude are different things. And I can realize that there are players who will spit on good advice- but I also realize that many casual players are defensive about advice because most of the advice they've received from elitists has been hostile and very little of it tends to be good. From what I've seen in WoW, there's an abundance of players willing to call everyone else trash, that wait for the first snag in a dungeon and target the third player on the dps meter for humiliation.

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Ive had dungeons runs where someone tried to vote kick me because I had the to suggest people do the boss mechanics properly so we could get through the fight. Ive had FC mates who had hit enrage on bismarck. Not EX, regular. This wasnt just a bunch of sprouts who didnt know the fight. This was people in Ilvl 390 gear (as this was in SB at the time) gear. Ive had trial runs where that literal "you dont pay my sub" nonsense was thrown at fellow players because someone kept messing up and making it harder to get things done.

Behaving that toxicity is just a one way street, that it's just coming from 'elitists' is disingenuous. There are a ton of entitled new players who feel they dont have to play by the rules, play nice, or try to put in effort but expect the same rewards as those who do. And bear in mind, Im still saying that among both veterans and sprouts, the occurrence of elitism or just plain being a jerk is a fairly rare occurrence. But it does occur, and it occurs from both directions at about the same rates. I happen to disagree with your implied perspective, that it is predominately a 'elite' point of view.

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I've seen plenty of wipes in raids while leveling, on stuff as easy as WoD to more mechanically heavy Alexander or Ivalice bosses- I've seen plenty of people list what the raid is supposed to do, whether with a macro or just line by line. I have not yet seen anyone get blasted for explaining how to do the mechanics of a fight though- I am not saying that it never happens, I am fully aware of how toxic some players can be. I also do not think that it is just elitists that are toxic, I've sat through enough LFR to know that's absolutely not the case- just that on these forums where casuals are sparse the consensus seems to be not so much that casuals are toxic and elitists are not- but that casuals even who aren't toxic should be treated as such if they're simply not great at the game, and elitists should get a pass on toxicity because being good at the game is a good reason for being toxic.

There's toxicity on both ends- but I seem to be criticized every time I point out that being a vet is not a free pass for toxicity.

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Most of the vets I tend to see voice their frustrations but with nuance. They want a better class of casuals so that they have a bigger base to play with and more interesting fights to have. Most people have not and will not suggest that "Everyone should be able to do Ultimates by Level 80." Most people have nuanced view and fully understand there will be different levels of play. Which is fine. On occassion you might get the ass who says "If you dont do good on Shiva EX, youre trashtier and should quit the game", but that isnt the majority of opinions. It's been broadly "Look, improve your abilities and reap the benefit of that, but dont demand to make the game easier cause you cant be bothered to invest in improving yourself."

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And a better class of talented casuals would be great for everyone, but it is a hard thing to do with casuals being... well, casual, disorganized, goalless and really just a random cluster of players. And I want to never be stuck in a game where toxicity is normalized like it is in WoW, so I can admit I'm very sensitive to when people try to excuse looking at other players as trash, because that mindset is the best way to ensure a game where toxicity is normal- and that is not going to have the positive effect that players seem to think. WoW, which is almost nothing but toxicity from casuals and elitists alike, has not gained better players out of it- LFR will have frequent wipes despite almost every fight being mechanically far more simple (not to mention having DBM tell you what to do and when to do it) than low tier dungeon bosses here.

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Again, flip the position - have a casual go into content and put low effort and expect to be carried and yell at a vet when they offer up well meaning advice. Toxicity cuts both ways. You cant sit here claiming the vets are all elites and Casuals be innocent of any wrong doing. There are plenty of instances where a casual player explodes on a vet for simply suggesting basic things, like using AOE on a pack mob. Hell asking if a player used a jump potion so you can adjust how tanking is handled is toxic and wrong.

People on both sides have been wrong. It's not an elite vs casual issue, its an issue of jerk vs jerk, and trying to quantify which sides has more so the other side can be free to be belligerent is foolish.

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I don't, and I won't- someone treating someone else like trash is toxic behaviour. Someone viewing other players as trash is a toxic mindset. Regardless of being elitist, casual, or whatever else. I definitely think that if you're a raiding FC, or making high end premades you're going to have expectations and there's a difference between someone making mistakes and someone not trying at all. But I also think an FC or recurring premade group also has a lot more connection and similar goals that welcomes meaningful feedback compared to a random normal pug, and tearing into a new tank because they haven't pulled wall to wall adds their first time in- something that there's an entire thread talking about how a tank that does not do mass pulls is 'toxic'.

I won't claim that vets are all elitist, but I have yet to hear a good reason as to why I would view a vet who considers non-vets to be trash, as not a toxic player. I think if you're asking someone to use their aoe abilities for aoe packs and they are toxic towards you, they are being toxic. But, if someone is going to make a post where they express that they and many other vets view a large chunk of the playerbase as idiots, trash, entitled snots, etc... I don't believe I am incorrect in saying that they are being toxic and displaying a toxic mindset.

Anyone can of course disagree- but it seems that is a case of a vet saying that there's so many casuals who are toxic it gives vets an excuse to be free to be belligerent.

A lot of this is role stereotyping. Especially in the case of Tank shenanigans, where the general consensus is 'go big or go home.' I think there's actually a lot less direct toxicity due to the new rules in place but a huge surge in passive toxicity, like rage quitting, kicking, afk, and emote/macro spamming. There was even one story in the Duty Finder thread where a healer was just sitting down during a dungeon instance because the tank would not play to their satisfaction. They still healed but its that kind of crap I see more than actual spoken toxicity nowadays.

The short of it is, people are selfish. They take what they want from the game, whatever aspect that does it for them, and care little about anything outside of that. And since we hide behind our sprites and play with a large group of others, a lot of times we use that as a shield for shitty behavior. Its the same in pretty much all MMO games, including this one.

I guess the moral of the post is to just...chill out? Terrible play is not going away and certainly not by being toxic about it. Either give advice or flex that veteran muscle and get through it anyway because you're just that good. Because lets face it, if everyone played optimized this would be the most boring game ever lol.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

I do not do EX or Savage at this point, I've been raiding for years in WoW and am burnt out on the systemic toxicity that seems unavoidable in the upper echelons, and I'm so used to hearing it being excused because 'we are better at the game', as if that's a genuine reason for mistreating other people.

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So you have little to no experience in the raid scene but deem if fit to declare that a majority of that scene are elitist because of your experience in another game? What? Maybe Im misunderstanding you but thats how Im understanding what you just said.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Now, I do understand the frustration full well of entering content with players who are messing things up, whether in mythic raiding or LFR, I have been on the high skill end in WoW looking down, and am now on the new end (despite what my profile says I basically didn't play until ShB was announced and only recently hit 80) in FFXIV. There's a fair number of fights I've seen once or twice and don't know inside and out, and with no add ons or in game guides to read up on a boss fight right before like in WoW I can admit I've called my phoenix many times only for the boss to enter an immune stage, and I'm quite aware of how much that'll tank my damage.

Personally, in this game no, I have experienced only a few examples of toxicity from either end, and not towards me but between other party members, though I am not keen on entering the savage/EX group with how the forums seem to accept toxicity towards novice players. I find the guides on SMN a bit daunting when people give it a two minute rotation when it is mixed with mechanic/movement heavy fights that seem designed to make such a rotation guaranteed to break up. And both mechanics and the rotation are things that I've found difficult to practice while just leveling up, since outside of mandatory dungeons there's really no possible way to even get a normal rotation going.

Learning to optimize your play is not really the topic that is concerning- I don't consider a player being the best they possibly can be toxic the same way I don't consider someone lacking skills, not following a guide or just having a low skill ceiling to be toxic. Skill and attitude are different things. And I can realize that there are players who will spit on good advice- but I also realize that many casual players are defensive about advice because most of the advice they've received from elitists has been hostile and very little of it tends to be good. From what I've seen in WoW, there's an abundance of players willing to call everyone else trash, that wait for the first snag in a dungeon and target the third player on the dps meter for humiliation.

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Again, it seems you are making judgement calls based on your experience in other games. And I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be the best, or people playing at the their best and it isnt 'raid' material. However, it is worth noting that there is a severe distinction with trying to improve and struggling to do so, and refusing to improve cause "you dont pay my sub" mentality. Look at some of the arguments put forward by some casual players in this thread and others like it. Arguments that "Oh the dungeon allows for 90 minutes, therefore its ok to take 90 minutes." or "Im a healer, my job is to heal, not dps." or "I only should pull one pack at a time (despite being level 80 in good gear) cause more than one pack is excessive and toxic." These mindsets are just as bad as the "I cleared e8s, so I know whats up and you dont, you PoS noob. Lol gtfo pleb".

There will always be elitists who like talking down to others when they complete content cause its a power trip. Much like there will be casual players who will make and find excuses to invest as little as possible and demand others cater to their lack of ability. But if the point youre trying to make is "Well, these casuals are 'you dont pay my sub' cause of elitists" then the same argument can be inverted where elitist players call casuals trash cause theyve encountered so many casuals that make excuses for crap play. This kind of toxicity inst a one way street - it happens on both ends equally. And frankly the solution to the problem isnt dropping the skill floor more, its actually pushing it up a bit and expecting players to rise to the challenge. But I digress, as thats another topic entirely.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

I've seen plenty of wipes in raids while leveling, on stuff as easy as WoD to more mechanically heavy Alexander or Ivalice bosses- I've seen plenty of people list what the raid is supposed to do, whether with a macro or just line by line. I have not yet seen anyone get blasted for explaining how to do the mechanics of a fight though- I am not saying that it never happens, I am fully aware of how toxic some players can be. I also do not think that it is just elitists that are toxic, I've sat through enough LFR to know that's absolutely not the case- just that on these forums where casuals are sparse the consensus seems to be not so much that casuals are toxic and elitists are not- but that casuals even who aren't toxic should be treated as such if they're simply not great at the game, and elitists should get a pass on toxicity because being good at the game is a good reason for being toxic.

There's toxicity on both ends- but I seem to be criticized every time I point out that being a vet is not a free pass for toxicity.

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We seem to more or less agree it seems, but I think its an issue of defining terms. If were talking about elitist meaning people who raid savage and EX, and said elitists are ok to be toxic, I disagree. That attitude is generally not accepted nor given a pass. Sure some people agree, but thats true of any opinion youll see here. If your using elitist to refer to high tier raiders who are toxic, and not most or all high end raiders, then elitist becomes the equivalent of 'trash casuals'. Most people understand when they say casual, they mean players who arent interested in Savage or EX, per se. Players who have other objectives and likely do not have much interest in BiS, or optimal rotations, or etc. That's fine to have those interests and what not, but it should still be expected that they meet a decent standard of play. Thankfully, most casual players do (though I feel it could be better). Casuals who dont even meet basic play ability and give stink eye to being given tips by more veteran players are just as toxic (and prevalent - or maybe lack of prevalence) as the 'elitist' raider who talks smack about anyone who hasn't seen enrage in TEA or something.

Mind you, it is not like I havent seen end raiders refer to others as trash before. However, there is typically some context to their use. As an example, Ive had people I play with refer to a specific player as being 'trash tier', but not because said player was a casual or didnt know the game or was struggling to get better. It was because said player was being an ass, demeaning the group, demanding better performance, when they were the one wiping the group by screwing up mechanics. If youre in a learning party and figuring stuff out, thats one thing, but Ive seen on occasion players in weekly reclears who, again, continuously mess up mechanics they should be familiar with. What makes it next level frustrating is when those players berate others and tell others to 'step up their game'. Those are your toxic elitists typically. Theyre also usually the people who throw up a PF and say some nonsense like "2 deaths = kick from party, dont waste my time.". From my personal experience, people who put that in their PF are typically people die a ton and blame it on others.

The reason people push back on the "pull one at a time" is the reasoning given by some is bull. "Oh Im super concerned with my party and its rude to pull more than one!" Did you check your parties gear, or ask their experience, or anything? No? Then thats on you. Or the "Im new to tank" as theyre level 80 with 490 gear. New? Right, no. Or as mentioned above "Well SE gives you 90 minutes so theres no need to pull wall to wall. All you do is kill everyone for sure!" All these reasons are BS. If your party is capable of healing you and doing appropriate DPS, and you have the level and gear, there is no reason for you to pull one at a time. If youre a sprout, or new to tanking, or lacking gear cause whatever reasons, or the party may struggle a bit to pull, etc, sure. I get that. Pull what you can, but you discuss that with your party and figure that out. But the reasons aforementioned are treated as hardline reasons. That "the appropriate way to tank a dungeon is one pack at a time, and if you wall to wall, youre the toxic elitist."

honestly the wall to wall issue is solved so easily, just macro the line "Want wall to wall or play safe? No respond in 5 means w2w" and run that when the dung loads in and see if anyone respond.

I do that when I queue as tank and never had any issue regarding to any pull style the party op for.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

So you have little to no experience in the raid scene but deem if fit to declare that a majority of that scene are elitist because of your experience in another game? What? Maybe Im misunderstanding you but thats how Im understanding what you just said.

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In game, on these forums, through what I've seen of streamers- as well as taking from experience with a far more toxic community where I've pushed servers firsts and speed runs- and a desire to not see this game become anything like WoW. When I see a post where someone is referring to most of the community as trash and people are just fine with that I consider it a red flag- one does not need to raid to see the multiple examples of elitist toxicity in this game since people are happy to make such toxicity public domain, which is another red flag- when open toxicity is acceptable. I'll point again to the streamer who was suspended while there's vids of him calling people r#%%%@ and telling his followers to harass someone by name. Not concerning if he gets slammed by the community for it, but when the community not only rallies around him but goes so far as to stalk and harass people who 'might' have reported him, I don't feel like it's an unusual conclusion to consider it to be a widespread thing. It's a good thing that the toxicity that is seemingly embraced in some areas is not a common factor in game- but it easily could be, and the more acceptable it becomes the more likely it will be.

And it's kind of offputting for casuals or novices who DO want to improve and get better when they see that the high end community supports what really just looks like mean spirited hazing on public forums/streams of anyone who dares to try to join their ranks.

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There will always be elitists who like talking down to others when they complete content cause its a power trip. Much like there will be casual players who will make and find excuses to invest as little as possible and demand others cater to their lack of ability. But if the point youre trying to make is "Well, these casuals are 'you dont pay my sub' cause of elitists" then the same argument can be inverted where elitist players call casuals trash cause theyve encountered so many casuals that make excuses for crap play. This kind of toxicity inst a one way street - it happens on both ends equally. And frankly the solution to the problem isnt dropping the skill floor more, its actually pushing it up a bit and expecting players to rise to the challenge. But I digress, as thats another topic entirely.

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While I agree that raising the skill floor is always going to be the best option especially for high end content, but not all content in the game is high end content- and I've seen far more groups wipe because the tank pulled everything up to a boss and either they or the healer couldn't handle it, than I have the world end because it took twenty minutes to do a pug instead of fifteen. I don't think there's actually many players who want a dungeon run to go slower- but there are definitely some who think if they pull five packs of mobs they'll cause a wipe, and knowing your limitations is part of being a good player. And maybe that player will realize they can do more and next time will try, emboldened by what they managed last time- but the player who does pull the entire first part of a dungeon, wipes, and then gets chewed out because the same person who was waiting to trash them for not pulling everything is just as eager to trash them for pulling everything- is going to be less inclined to cause a wipe by pulling too much again.

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We seem to more or less agree it seems, but I think its an issue of defining terms. If were talking about elitist meaning people who raid savage and EX, and said elitists are ok to be toxic, I disagree. That attitude is generally not accepted nor given a pass. Sure some people agree, but thats true of any opinion youll see here. If your using elitist to refer to high tier raiders who are toxic, and not most or all high end raiders, then elitist becomes the equivalent of 'trash casuals'. Most people understand when they say casual, they mean players who arent interested in Savage or EX, per se. Players who have other objectives and likely do not have much interest in BiS, or optimal rotations, or etc. That's fine to have those interests and what not, but it should still be expected that they meet a decent standard of play. Thankfully, most casual players do (though I feel it could be better). Casuals who dont even meet basic play ability and give stink eye to being given tips by more veteran players are just as toxic (and prevalent - or maybe lack of prevalence) as the 'elitist' raider who talks smack about anyone who hasn't seen enrage in TEA or something.

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I don't consider someone who raids the top end stuff to be an elitist- what I view as elitism at least also includes a mindset of looking down on others, of viewing them like trash and often treating them the same way. So no, someone who clears savage is not an elitist- someone who dumps on people who make mistakes, don't 90+ parse and mocks randoms who can't play at their level however is an elitist. Someone who helps their FC mates to improve and learn mechanics/their job isn't elitist, someone who tells someone they suck at the game during a random pug where they've known the person all of ten minutes and don't care at all whether that person improves because they'll never meet again is probably an elitist. Elitists also tend to forget their own period of being new, making mistakes, not knowing the mechanics of a fight- a fight that you've done fifty times is still new to someone who has done it 0 times.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Your response to them expressing their views on the history and development of toxicity, from their perspective, was:

Assume meaning and intention to passages in which we, as the readers, cannot fully confirm in order to fit a (very clear) narrative.
Call him an elitist throughout, with a clear negative connotation.
Selectively read certain passages in order to fit your narrative.
Take passages out of context in order to further push your narrative.
Assigned a certain personality and mindset to him when it's clear that it isn't present.

Never have I seen someone so completely prove the general statement of a post they are against. Bravo on being the problem that Ramesses was referencing throughout. When criticism and a different view came to pass, you attacked him. You just reinforced his entire post. Established that his view is entirely valid and with merit.

Outstanding work. I'm going to leave this specific post up. You see, I regularly delete my posts because some individuals on this forum found my in game house and left some choice words in my guest book. Thus the alt as well. But this one? It's staying because maybe you'll gain a bit of self-awareness out of it.

Edit: I re-read the post, your post, and the posts in between to make sure that take was accurate. It was, but further, I want to point something out to you: Sabrenn had a very good counterpoint. Had you done NOTHING, that would of been a good discussion chain to go off of that would of supported your "view." But no. You decided to attack someone with a different view. Not only did that kill any discussion merit that the chain was going to have, you actively proved the entire point of the post Ramesses made.

All because you could not help but try to talk down to, belittle, and manipulate the words of someone whos take on a situation, based on their personal experiences, was different than your own. Sound familiar? Rhetorical question.

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His mindset is clear when he said it himself that when a player was apologizing to what happened to him because of another player--a very thoughtful and humane thing to do--his thoughts were for that player to sod off. It is as if he rejected the notion that amidst all this group of players he dislike, there is actually people that can act like a decent human being, and instead of acknowledging that, he'd rather continue to think them all as toxic trash trying to destroy what he loves. Confirmation bias and all that jazz.

For me, it is something that is obvious and crystal clear, and I wonder myself how you could have possibly missed that.

Since I last posted, the conversation seems to have evolved into elitism around disability, laziness, casual players and the dislike of.

Lots of people agree by now that there is a level of toxicity happening in this game, THIS IS NOT NEW, and I don’t want anyone to think, that I think, this is new. I know this game is growing and will continue too. I am afraid of the forums and the community going from helpful and caring and kind to WOW,

I mean no Offence to you wow players but have you seen your forums? Your own community? Christ it’s toxic and I fear that this community, this game will go that route, the GW2 community elitism route.

People seem less interested in either helping because they are afraid of being yelled at and bullied, or to ask for help because they might get attacked. I run roulettes these days with nothing but sprigs and maybe 1/10 will either ask for help or accept help where as before it was 6/10 and every one wanted to help.

Things change, times change and communities evolve. I found a guy in my FC who spent hours with me the other day, helping me understand how to do rotations to get HQ collectables for crafting. He bought me gear, we voice chatted and he walked me through not just what the skills do, BUT WHAT ORDER IS BEST OPTIMIZED TO PRESS THEM IN given the circumstances.

HE SPENT HOURS and GIL to help me. On two of my classes.


NO ONE DOES THIS ANY MORE. No one helps each other. No one takes time to help people. You want a damn Gil sink, help a newbie level to eighty in a class.

Christ what’s wrong with this community. I learned so much and more and feel more accomplished as a crafter and gatherer.

The toxic player left the group, I see no problem here. Run enough dungeons you will run into divas.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

Since I last posted, the conversation seems to have evolved into elitism around disability, laziness, casual players and the dislike of.

Lots of people agree by now that there is a level of toxicity happening in this game, THIS IS NOT NEW, and I don’t want anyone to think, that I think, this is new. I know this game is growing and will continue too. I am afraid of the forums and the community going from helpful and caring and kind to WOW,

I mean no Offence to you wow players but have you seen your forums? Your own community? Christ it’s toxic and I fear that this community, this game will go that route, the GW2 community elitism route.

People seem less interested in either helping because they are afraid of being yelled at and bullied, or to ask for help because they might get attacked. I run roulettes these days with nothing but sprigs and maybe 1/10 will either ask for help or accept help where as before it was 6/10 and every one wanted to help.

Things change, times change and communities evolve. I found a guy in my FC who spent hours with me the other day, helping me understand how to do rotations to get HQ collectables for crafting. He bought me gear, we voice chatted and he walked me through not just what the skills do, BUT WHAT ORDER IS BEST OPTIMIZED TO PRESS THEM IN given the circumstances.

HE SPENT HOURS and GIL to help me. On two of my classes.


NO ONE DOES THIS ANY MORE. No one helps each other. No one takes time to help people. You want a damn Gil sink, help a newbie level to eighty in a class.

Christ what’s wrong with this community. I learned so much and more and feel more accomplished as a crafter and gatherer.

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And everyone generalizes everyone else to make a point. Just because you don't run into helpful people doesn't mean they don't exist. I help when I can with mechanics, but even I will have an off night.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

Since I last posted, the conversation seems to have evolved into elitism around disability, laziness, casual players and the dislike of.

Lots of people agree by now that there is a level of toxicity happening in this game, THIS IS NOT NEW, and I don’t want anyone to think, that I think, this is new. I know this game is growing and will continue too. I am afraid of the forums and the community going from helpful and caring and kind to WOW,

I mean no Offence to you wow players but have you seen your forums? Your own community? Christ it’s toxic and I fear that this community, this game will go that route, the GW2 community elitism route.

People seem less interested in either helping because they are afraid of being yelled at and bullied, or to ask for help because they might get attacked. I run roulettes these days with nothing but sprigs and maybe 1/10 will either ask for help or accept help where as before it was 6/10 and every one wanted to help.

Things change, times change and communities evolve. I found a guy in my FC who spent hours with me the other day, helping me understand how to do rotations to get HQ collectables for crafting. He bought me gear, we voice chatted and he walked me through not just what the skills do, BUT WHAT ORDER IS BEST OPTIMIZED TO PRESS THEM IN given the circumstances.

HE SPENT HOURS and GIL to help me. On two of my classes.


NO ONE DOES THIS ANY MORE. No one helps each other. No one takes time to help people. You want a damn Gil sink, help a newbie level to eighty in a class.

Christ what’s wrong with this community. I learned so much and more and feel more accomplished as a crafter and gatherer.

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I've actually been running into more helpful people lately. They seem to keep to FCs that run around "adopting" newbies and showing them the ropes. Helpful folks are still out there.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

I stand by what I said and my perspective. Didn't miss anything.

It was pretty awesome seeing the user I responded to just continue to reaffirm my statement, though. Not going to lie: Having my own personal beliefs about the "toxic casual" side of the community affirmed is vindicating. Those of us on the other side of the fence self-policed and removed the toxic people from our "clique," for lack of a better term. Be a toxic person? Good luck with raiding.

When will your side do the same?

No need to answer. The likes on their post tell me what it is. When you all learn that you shouldn't support people like Elcia, let me know. THAT is classic toxicity and you all certainly don't call it out. Can't wait to see a few select people jump through hoops to justify it.

Peace <3

Edit: Oh, and before someone tries the "well not everyone is like that" shtick: If all you hear is the vocal minority of your group, then they are your voice. They are your views. They represent you. And I gotta say, that voice comes out as ignorant and toxic to a lot of people, in game and out. Might wanna get to changing that.

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Can we not just do, you know, "Your side" and "Us on the other side of the fence" thing? Because it saddens me to read that. It doesn't do anything other to inflame the flammable and widen the schism between all of us.

I responded the way I responded because I felt Ramesses' post was being unfair because how he seemingly characterized the entire new players group as this one big collective of toxic culture thing. And I think I am not being unfair to criticize how he unfairly treated the player that apologized towards him because of what happened when he played with their group.

This is the problem with this whole thing, everyone is so quick to generalize and unwilling to admit that bad apples (and good people) do exist in both veterans and new players alike, and are so quick to use judge a whole lot group of people just to appease their confirmation bias. I am a relatively new member of this community (relatively speaking, compared to the years and years many of you have been) and yet I already feel tired seeing this seemingly happening again and again and again and again.

Also: don't take this the wrong way: but maybe you aught to do what you advice at the last part of your post; try to hear more voices and not the ones agreeing and supporting your opinion only. And be more open minded and not let yourself be offended by something as trivial as likes on a post that you disagree with.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Edit: Oh, and before someone tries the "well not everyone is like that" shtick: If all you hear is the vocal minority of your group, then they are your voice. They are your views. They represent you. And I gotta say, that voice comes out as ignorant and toxic to a lot of people, in game and out. Might wanna get to changing that.

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That seems like a odd angel to push as the vocal minority of the raid community paints raiders is a very poor light and if they represent you then the raid scene has big issues

Me thinks Darsien is either an elaborate troll or just has SJW mindset.

I don't see what's so hard about having patience for other users, and not looking down on them like you own the game.. =/

To be honest the biggest amount of toxicity I've seen in this game comes from the casual community, players refusing to learn, rejecting advice/leaving instance when advice is given and being disrespectful to those who give it, players who do not take into consideration the rest of the party and treat this game as a single player game, all of them are far more common than the "You're trash l2p idiot" kind of player.

Also I've noticed a huge amount of those players are healers (curebots) or single pulling no mitigation tanks

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

To be honest the biggest amount of toxicity I've seen in this game comes from the casual community, players refusing to learn, rejecting advice/leaving instance when advice is given and being disrespectful to those who give it, players who do not take into consideration the rest of the party and treat this game as a single player game, all of them are far more common than the "You're trash l2p idiot" kind of player.

Also I've noticed a huge amount of those players are healers (curebots) or single pulling no mitigation tanks

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And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

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It's toxic because people apply that same attitude about how they don't have to play optimally to even the basic functions of their class.
Curebotting healers
Non-mitigating tanks
BLMs not using Enochian
Ice/Thunder Mages
Freestyle Sam
Non-positional Monks

The list goes on. And if you try to call it out people will rush to their defense and shout, "It's just a game! Let them play how they want to play! Don't try to tell them to do the most basic, simple rotation their class is expected to do!" Even if you try to be courteous and respectful in your request for better play people will still snap and hound you for it.

But for some reason, that's not viewed as being toxic, even though it's having a detrimental effect on the players grouped up with them.

Frankly it's insulting to those players as well. Imagine someone telling you that it's okay that you're playing worse than the trusts/NPCs in the game play. That their expectations of you are so low.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

It's toxic because people apply that same attitude about how they don't have to play optimally to even the basic functions of their class.
Curebotting healers
Non-mitigating tanks
BLMs not using Enochian
Ice/Thunder Mages
Freestyle Sam
Non-positional Monks

The list goes on. And if you try to call it out people will rush to their defense and shout, "It's just a game! Let them play how they want to play! Don't try to tell them to do the most basic, simple rotation their class is expected to do!" Even if you try to be courteous and respectful in your request for better play people will still snap and hound you for it.

But for some reason, that's not viewed as being toxic, even though it's having a detrimental effect on the players grouped up with them.

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Look at it this way. Before wiki's were a thing and people made articles when the game was new no one knew what to do for their class, no one knew all the secrets, and the efficiency. Some people want to figure that out on their own, to play it without 'cheating'. I know I do. It feels totally cheap to look something up on a guide just because there's struggle. It's like in the Playstation days with strategy guides and walkthroughs. They're tools, and it's fine for people to use them. But not everyone wants to. Some want the mystery of discovery on their own.

Sure, a class may be played best one way with all its rotations. Yeah, some on here may have the class explained down to the literal quantum formulas. ... However, that takes the fun out of it. It's just cheating, by copying what someone else already figured out.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

It's toxic because people apply that same attitude about how they don't have to play optimally to even the basic functions of their class.
Curebotting healers
Non-mitigating tanks
BLMs not using Enochian
Ice/Thunder Mages
Freestyle Sam
Non-positional Monks

The list goes on. And if you try to call it out people will rush to their defense and shout, "It's just a game! Let them play how they want to play! Don't try to tell them to do the most basic, simple rotation their class is expected to do!" Even if you try to be courteous and respectful in your request for better play people will still snap and hound you for it.

But for some reason, that's not viewed as being toxic, even though it's having a detrimental effect on the players grouped up with them.

Frankly it's insulting to those players as well. Imagine someone telling you that it's okay that you're playing worse than the trusts/NPCs in the game play. That their expectations of you are so low.

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To be fair the game doesn’t exactly explain how to play ones job at all, other than reading tool tips(which some don’t even bother with). It would be nice if novice extended to level 50 for jobs and how they function. Though I agree that it’s more bothersome that the other players have to stop and teach someone at 70+ content about how popping defensive cooldowns on a tank is beneficial for the team.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Look at it this way. Before wiki's were a thing and people made articles when the game was new no one knew what to do for their class, no one knew all the secrets, and the efficiency. Some people want to figure that out on their own, to play it without 'cheating'. I know I do. It feels totally cheap to look something up on a guide just because there's struggle. It's like in the Playstation days with strategy guides and walkthroughs. They're tools, and it's fine for people to use them. But not everyone wants to. Some want the mystery of discovery on their own.

Sure, a class may be played best one way with all its rotations. Yeah, some on here may have the class explained down to the literal quantum formulas. ... However, that takes the fun out of it. It's just cheating, by copying what someone else already figured out.

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So looking to better yourself is considered cheating, learn something new everyday.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Look at it this way. Before wiki's were a thing and people made articles when the game was new no one knew what to do for their class, no one knew all the secrets, and the efficiency. Some people want to figure that out on their own, to play it without 'cheating'. I know I do. It feels totally cheap to look something up on a guide just because there's struggle. It's like in the Playstation days with strategy guides and walkthroughs. Their tools, and it's fine for people to use them. But not everyone wants to. Some want the mystery of discovery on their own.

Sure, a class may be played best one way with all its rotations. Yeah, some on here may have the class explained down to the literal quantum formulas. ... However, that takes the fun out of it. It's just cheating, by copying what someone else already figured out.

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I can understand that view point, but you're excluding and ignoring things like quest text, the novice hall, that combos cause certain abilities to light up, and your tooltips. These are in game put in by the developers to help you understand how to play at a basic level. NPCs dropping healers hints that they need to DPS some and not just spam cure, abilities comboing into others not just on the tool tips but the next ability in the chain gaining a flashing outline, positional noted in the tooltip, the list goes on.

And yet, time after time, players ignore even those resources and hints, instead choosing to do their own thing to the detriment of others. Trying to suggest that basic gameplay is something that players have to go out of their way and out of the game to find is a complete cop out, and frankly insulting.

I'll reiterate.

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Frankly it's insulting to those players as well. Imagine someone telling you that it's okay that you're playing worse than the trusts/NPCs in the game play. That their expectations of you are so low.

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Originally Posted by Hugowulf

So looking to better yourself is considered cheating, learn something new everyday.

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Apparently you didn't read. I said if people want to use it it's fine.
But I consider it cheating if I USE it. And others may think that too.
I DO NOT want to do something that I see as cheating personally.

If you want to better yourself, have at it.

I want the discovery. I want to take on that WoL role and make mistakes and learn from them, start out a novice and improve by dying tons, wiping several, and learning what works and what doesn't on my own. Not just read someone elses work who already did that and took the fun out of it.

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Originally Posted by Hugowulf

To be fair the game doesn’t exactly explain how to play ones job at all, other than reading tool tips(which some don’t even bother with). It would be nice if y’all of novice extended to level 50 for jobs and how they function. Though I agree that it’s more bothersome that the other players have to stop and teach someone at 70+ content about how popping defensive cooldowns on a tank is beneficial for the team.

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I can most definitely agree with that. However my issue and point was with players not even doing the most basic functions their class has, and others defending this lack of action.
I don't expect players to optimize or completely understand their classes (god knows I don't), I'm just utterly sick of seeing no damage healers, free style DPS, etc. cropping up and people acting as if requesting some basic gameplay is a sin.

https://i.redd.it/ibvy4ncm5va51.png

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

To be honest the biggest amount of toxicity I've seen in this game comes from the casual community, players refusing to learn, rejecting advice/leaving instance when advice is given and being disrespectful to those who give it, players who do not take into consideration the rest of the party and treat this game as a single player game, all of them are far more common than the "You're trash l2p idiot" kind of player.

Also I've noticed a huge amount of those players are healers (curebots) or single pulling no mitigation tanks

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You tell me how to play ? Jail.
You try to give me unsolicited advice ? Jail.
You kick me ? Jail.
You infringe upon my personal abilities ? Also, believe it or not, jail to be in future. Over infringe, under infringe, jail.

Best way to stay out of jail is be quiet and protect your soul with memes.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

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When you raid, it's not YOUR call to make. You become a liability and drag to the group and is a common mindset of being kicked. In casual gameplay, do what you want, but expect consequences. Don't expect to not be called out or advised.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

I stand by what I said and my perspective. Didn't miss anything.

It was pretty awesome seeing the user I responded to just continue to reaffirm my statement, though. Not going to lie: Having my own personal beliefs about the "toxic casual" side of the community affirmed is vindicating. Those of us on the other side of the fence self-policed and removed the toxic people from our "clique," for lack of a better term. Be a toxic person? Good luck with raiding.

When will your side do the same?

No need to answer. The likes on their post tell me what it is. When you all learn that you shouldn't support people like Elcia, let me know. THAT is classic toxicity and you all certainly don't call it out. Can't wait to see a few select people jump through hoops to justify it.

Peace <3

Edit: Oh, and before someone tries the "well not everyone is like that" shtick: If all you hear is the vocal minority of your group, then they are your voice. They are your views. They represent you. And I gotta say, that voice comes out as ignorant and toxic to a lot of people, in game and out. Might wanna get to changing that.

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So I have called out someone for referring to a large chunk of the community openly as trash, among other things- pointing out that is a toxic mindset. I've noted I understand that he has a reason for being hostile to casuals, much like there's reasoning why casuals who are so used to being treated like trash erect barriers towards criticism. There is a difference between understanding where something comes from, and condoning it.


I've pointed out numerous times now that being a novice or a vet is not an excuse for being toxic, that this is not something excusable for either 'sides'. And if you want to talk about the 'vocal minority' perhaps you'd like to explain why the raiding community allows streamers who tell their viewers to harass people by name while calling them slurs to be treated like they're immune to criticism? Or why someone who constantly refers to casuals as trash is not displaying a toxic mindset- since that seems to be what you are arguing in favour of, or perhaps more accurately ignoring that part of his post so you can argue around it.

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No need to answer. The likes on their post tell me what it is. When you all learn that you shouldn't support people like Elcia, let me know. THAT is classic toxicity and you all certainly don't call it out. Can't wait to see a few select people jump through hoops to justify it.

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By all means, let me hear it. I asked for you to be specific the last time you posted, and you're still not doing so. I did not simply state that his post displayed a toxic mindset, I was specific about why and the sort of insults he was using to describe other people. But if you want to call me out go ahead, because at the moment it seems like your main issue is that I called someone else out for calling other people trash while making it clear that even if someone goes out of their way to apologize to him in a decent manner for another person's toxic behaviour he will view them all the same way.

On the other hand, both your responses so far have been non specific dismissals without attempting to actually discuss anything- I really have no issue with discussing something with someone who disagrees with me on certain things, as I have been with Melichoir. But you leave me with little to discuss by simply trying to dismiss me.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

...
Edit: Oh, and before someone tries the "well not everyone is like that" shtick: If all you hear is the vocal minority of your group, then they are your voice. They are your views. They represent you. And I gotta say, that voice comes out as ignorant and toxic to a lot of people, in game and out. Might wanna get to changing that.

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No. This is "If you dont decry them, then your guilty with them" argument. It's stupid on its face when given any level of thought or consideration. For example, if you dont even visit the forums and are a raider, if some jerk comes on the forum and claims to speak for all raiders and says something to the effect of "If you dont raid, youre trash", youre suggesting they speak for you when youre not even aware of what theyre saying or that there is even a discussion happening that youre not present?

No one speaks on my behalf, vocal or not, unless I explicitly say so. Much like no one speaks on your behalf unless you say they do. Unless you express your opinion explicitly, then the thing to assume is either you are unaware of the conversation or have no input to give and do not lean any which way.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

And how is it toxicity to not want to watch a video or read a guide? Read the normal guide for the game, yeah. But to have to go through diagrams, others play styles, and videos just to have fun and play a game? That's not your call to make. That's not anyone's call to make. An MMO is not locked to only one playstyle that has to be super effecient or the people playing aren't 'doing it right'. It's an MMORPG "RPG" Role Playing Game. Taking on a role. Playing that role how you see fit.

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You dont need a guide to read your tooltips, think about skills, or ask questions from fellow players. If youre standing there spamming an AoE on a single target when it is clear by your own tooltips that what you are doing is incredibly damage inefficient, thats on you. And most end game mechanics, like those in seat of sacrifice, youve seen at some point in time in ShB dungeons OR are fairly self explainatory that if you took a hot second to think about the skill and what it does, youd deduce how to resolve it without getting destroyed. And even if you cant, the likely hood that youre doing dungeons in a complete vacuum where there are no veteran players is low. Asking others "Hey what does that symbol mean" and actually taking what they say to heart is still on you.

BTW, most guides arent convoluted messes. Go to Youtube. MTQ or MrHappy go out of their way to explain every fight mechanic they encounter and how to resolve it in some capacity. In Savage, theres more going on so it gets complicated but the guides arent War and Peace in ancient Latin. Theyre pretty straight forward.

It's not about min maxing or hte most efficient rotation. It's about doing your job in a half competent manner. You cant post the RPG argument if youre a SCH and you dont use any healing abilities cause "Well Im role playing a DPS Scholar who just lets their fairy heal". Youre diong your role wrong, and you know it, and its causing issues to your fellow players. Much like if you just press 1 button and never try to do a rotation, and the fight drags on and people die or wipe cause you couldnt be bothered to do even a basic rotation cause "It's not fun! You dont pay my sub!" This is kind of the thinking that generates a lot of friction - that its ok to just not care about playign the game in some capacity cause "Its an RPG, Bro". This is like going to the park to play basketball and a random stranger who asked to join begins running and holding the ball, tackling people, playing the game like football, and saying "Well its just a game man! Im playing basketball the way I want!"

And lets be clear here. Something that has been driving me up the wall about the "I play how I want" argument is that it is incredibly reliant on more competent players to get you through content. Im not saying that you need to know your rotation to a T for max DPS, but if the entire party had the same mindset that they dont need to do even decent rotations, or resolve mechanics properly, then the likely hood of said people even reaching lvl 80 is slim as they wouldnt be able to progress. It is incredibly contingent for some of these fights for a good portion of the group to do the fight properly and resolve mechanics correctly to progress. And yet, some people argue that "they dont have to worry about doing things right" or learn fight mechanics, simply because it at times seems they are being carried through content so what do they care. Let someone else worry about doing it right.

Is that the vast majority of players? No. Of course not. Its a minority of a minority, but it is an argument that is put forward by people who say that' casual content' doesnt require you to know even the basics. And that mindset is only possible when you have people who at least have a basic understanding of the game and mechanics to do it right so you can progress.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Apparently you didn't read. I said if people want to use it it's fine.
But I consider it cheating if I USE it. And others may think that too.
I DO NOT want to do something that I see as cheating personally.

If you want to better yourself, have at it.

I want the discovery. I want to take on that WoL role and make mistakes and learn from them, start out a novice and improve by dying tons, wiping several, and learning what works and what doesn't on my own. Not just read someone elses work who already did that and took the fun out of it.

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With the exception of day 1 content, ff you queue up for roulette, join a raid or learning party, you are expected to know these things such as rotation because there are people will that will call you out on it if you are pulling the group down. Its been like this for years.

If you want to play with the self discovery and learn it as you go, as you stated, that is fine, but I would recommend doing a preformed party with like minded individuals and do the roulette, raids, extremes, savages, that way. Its going to be a better experience for you in the long run.

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

With the exception of day 1 content, ff you queue up for roulette, join a raid or learning party, you are expected to know these things such as rotation because there are people will that will call you out on it if you are pulling the group down. Its been like this for years.

If you want to play with the self discovery and learn it as you go, as you stated, that is fine, but I would recommend doing a preformed party with like minded individuals and do the roulette, raids, extremes, savages, that way. Its going to be a better experience for you in the long run.

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I wonder if they do much raiding, cause there are a lot of raiders who like to YOLO it their first time or so into new content cause, yes, there is some fun in trying to figure out how to beat fights. However if its week 7 of Savage, and people are progging or clearing, unless you run your own PF where you say "Fresh start going blind", expecting other people to cater to you is a bit much.