That's not about old vs current - you are always locked in place at the very beginning of the dungeon. When the MSQ dungeon cutscenes were skippable, they were the same - you were locked in place during the intro cutscene but no others. They don't seem to be able to re-apply that lock mid-dungeon, or it would be an obvious solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
I don't see what this has to do with "SE not trusting us" though. How would locking us in place be any different?
If anything I think it's what they could do within their system. They can force unskippable cutscenes and auto-scrolling text, as both functions already existed elsewhere in the game, but probably can't force locking in place.
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06-01-2020, 01:28 PMIscah
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06-01-2020, 01:29 PMPharisHanasakiLet me tell you what will happen based on the reason this was implemented in the first place. People will do a check to agree to skip cutscenes. Someone did not agree? I leave, the rest of the party follows, they try again. The new person is forced to go back into queue. It has happened before, they don't even need to get out with a penalty, just fake dc.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Nekomancer
The only way this can work is to force everyone to agree to the same choice, watching all cutscenes. A better solution is to make this a solo dungeon, with a warning that it will take time to finish and watch all the cs. This would eliminate the need for a roulette, but it will also remove a source of good xp.
They trusted us to do the right thing for years, and people openly justified kicking newbies because "it's my time, it's my play style, so I can do it", without considering the reason the roulette was made for: To help newbies. -
06-01-2020, 03:22 PMKrotoan
21 pages I'm gonna bet this has been said many times.. but you want the reward you have to earn it. That reward is because of the bother. Want to skip the bother? They'll remove the reward. "But then I don't wanna do it".. ok.. so don't. It's an incentive to put up with the cutscenes, not a fixed reward for the dungeons.
It's like asking the people you're doing volunteer work for if you can skip all the work and just have the free lunch. -
06-01-2020, 03:42 PMAwhaIf they locked people in place during cut scenes even if people did skip them they could not proceed with the fight. Since that seems to be major issue with skipping cut scenes, the aspect of people missing out on fights. The thing they do it for dunegons at the start, so the code exists, I mean sure it might take some QA work but in theory they could treat certain areas as a locked off zone during a cut scene, a akin to the barrier that prevents one from going forward in a pvp match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
I generally think they probably could do it but are afraid people would pester those that do not skip the cut scenes. It would not change much, but when talking with others some honestly wish they could just skip the cut scene even if that means they could not enter the boss area. Though if they also did it that way if everyone did akip the cutscene they could move on with the run. Only reason I cannot fathom why SE did not go this route is because they do not trust us to play nice and not harass people into skippinh. -
06-01-2020, 03:52 PMIscahYes, it's an obvious solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
So if it's obvious and they haven't done it, then it's quite possible that it's not as simple as it looks or they would do it. -
06-01-2020, 03:56 PMlol123
Cant believe this is still active. Look se is not going to let you skip cutscreens in these 2 dungeons its for new players to enjoy the story without being harassed. Dont like the cutscreens then dont do it its simple as that.
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06-01-2020, 04:06 PMAwhaNo matter how ancient or broken the base line code is, if the function exists in one form of another altering it to serve another function is more of a QA thing. I willing to be they felt that making it function like that would be too similar to how things were before where people were removing players for watching cut scenes and not taking part in the fighgs themselves, or they are afraid people will leave the dungeon if they are forced to wait on one or two people to watch. Call me crazy but I do not think SE trusts the community to act in a civil manner and that is why they went the forced route.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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06-01-2020, 04:21 PMPharisHanasakiI think it also had to do with people abusing the old ToS, everyone tossed in the "Different playstyles" card everytime you called them out for doing obviously wrong things like kicking newbies for watching CS. With the new one in place, you can be sure people will be punished, so even if they do it once, when they get reported they will stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
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06-01-2020, 04:37 PMIscahThat's because the community can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
For a long time SE left the cutscenes unenforced, presumably with the idealistic expectation that people would wait for others to finish.
Everyone skipped? Great, you can move on early because everyone has indicated that they want to.
Someone is watching still? Sit and wait until you can move on as a group.
This would be acting in a civil manner and the community showed (and continues to show) that they cannot be trusted to act this way. So now we have to wait every time instead of only sometimes. -
06-01-2020, 05:01 PMSeraphorTo be fair, this is done (in general) in dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
So I think this is at least partly due to how easy the instances are. When someone is in a cutscene in a dungeon, you wait, because you either can't do it without the tank or healer, or being down one DPS will make it take longer anyway so you might as well wait. (or, at least some of the time, just basic human decency)
Castrum/Prae are so easy you can complete it with half the party, or even just a good DPS and a good healer. -
06-01-2020, 10:49 PMMorningstar1337Problem is that most dungeons before (or since) don't have cutscenes lasting 30 min (granted that's mostly Prae), come before every boss or are even 8 man dungeons. Those two are exceptions instead of the norm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
Which might had been the biggest mistake SE made regarding those two dungeons and this would not had been much of an issue if other dungeons had scenes, were 8 man instances and/or had other factors that give them enough opportunity cost to make roueltte spamming take up more then 3 hours a day -
06-02-2020, 12:31 AMTsaranogaThere are games out there where you can't even kick people because of the fact that people would misuse it. Big problem of MMOs is, of course, people want some function because they don't want to deal with asshole, while at the same time they can't get it because it would be misused by asshole. it is truly, TRULY hilarious. So like is obvious, the biggest curse of playing with other people is that you have to deal with other people. Hah!Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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06-02-2020, 11:02 PMrachcouture
It's surreal reading this thread. Back in ARR, the biggest majority of people had no issue with new players watching the cutscenes in Castrum and Praetorium. The few that complained were always, at least from my experience, put in their place by the rest of the party. Sure, that meant anyone new missed out on the fighting, but that was always an issue with SQX designing both dungeons like they were for a single player game, not a problem with the playerbase.
Honestly? I used to run MSQ roulette just to help out new players; reward was always secondary. That said, ever since the changed to forced cutscenes for everyone, I've refused to touch it. There's plenty of other ways I can help people in-game that still values what little time I have to play. -
07-07-2020, 05:49 AMHazama999
My experience with ARR was different. Talking specifically about 2.0, that is, before Party Finder (which dropped with 2.1). If you wanted to actually watch the cutscenes in the intended way, you'd have to go with a premade with that specific purpose. This could mean different things: You could stand in Mor Dhona shouting for a party, or go in with a group picked from your FC, LSs, friends, or whathaveyou... or you could try your luck with Duty Finder.
Now, once again, this was my experience but... DF was very much a "majority rules" type of scenario. In a lot of those parties I was in, people cared very little about the newbie's experience. At first, they would get pressured into skipping cutscenes, or outright kicked for "gameplay differences" or whatever that default reasoning is. As people got their ilvls up there, and as patches released, it became less of a "skip or kick" deal and more of a "ok, you go ahead and stay there watching your cutscene while we tear through the rest of the instance without you." -
07-07-2020, 07:45 AMPacketdancer*points up at previous post*Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazama999
This was my experience when I played it for the first time aaaaages ago. Being ordered by the rest of the party to skip the cutscenes. So I skipped them, and then got yelled at about how it didn't matter and "could the healer please just shut the f*ck up so we can get out of here" when I asked in party chat why we were suddenly fighting an entirely different NPC at the end. (I mean, since I'd had to skip the two scenes that explained said NPC's presence.)
Honestly, that Praetorium experience was a huge contributing factor to why I quit the game not that much later, in the post-ARR stuff. I've never had a party remotely that bad/toxic since my return last year, but man do I still remember that one. -
07-07-2020, 08:17 AMShougun
Still same opinion that I had previously, which is the reward for having to wait is there and so if you don't wait to wait then don't join it- and everyone should have to wait since it's a non-trivial part of completing ARR's story. I had done the content when it was fresh, and sometimes we could wait, I personally asked if I was tank (was not as often tank back then), and sometimes it was majority rule (tanks being threatened of vote kick if they don't go, or some other members just pulling and forcing it to move along).
Half way through the life of the expansion though and it was extremely consistent via majority rule either watch it in the inn if you want to fight or watch it now but you'll not get to fight.
Also for context I was one of the first group of people suggesting for non-skippable cutscenes, long long time ago as it was either get story or get combat but not both and I thought that was just silly. Though I had liked it if the people who don't need to see it again could wander around in a designated area, so they could emote or whatever. I can totally see how people find it frustrating for their speed, but the reward is their which was something I had also wanted in return for the guaranteed longer runs. Originally, if I recall correctly, the reward wasn't even as large it is now, it's a pretty juicy reward right now.
So in that sense I see it as working as intended, of course one could argue the dungeon could have been designed so it doesn't have so many in-between cuts, solo, or whatever, could have worked better, but at least given the circumstances working as intended.
Ultimately if people can't handle themselves it may be best to make it a solo play duty, but that's kind of sad for the people who were fine waiting and getting well rewarded for it, and for those new players who wanted to experience it in a group. Yet I still feel at least for now it's fine, since it seems the majority is still "if you don't want to wait then don't do it, you get rewarded to wait". Whenever that majority switches, or when people stop running it, then you'll really want to make sure to have a back up system in place lol (like a group of trust/squadron mates). Besides Cid being part of the potential trust you could treat people with the wandering minstrel or other devs who 'volunteer' to help you :p. -
07-07-2020, 01:03 PMItMe
I think it's fine. I get to auto-pilot through some easy content while eating dinner and get some fat rewards for it.
I've heard the idea kicked around that if everyone has already done the duties they let you skip the cutscenes, but if they did that as soon as people get into a duty with a new player, and thus can't skip the cutscenes, they'd all jump ship.
New players would never be able to get that duty done.
I wonder what they'll do to change them in the ARR rework. -
07-07-2020, 03:22 PMDriavnaPlayers don't seem to understand that the current reward is tied to forced cutscenes. All dungeons related to ARR should be solo duties and this roulette just needs to disappear.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
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07-07-2020, 04:33 PMJojoyaThey already stated that they did not change Castrum or Prae at all for the revamp. They seemed to leave it open for the possibility that something could be changed in the future but they had no plans for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
Personally I think they should create a special Trust unit for completing those two dungeons then remove MSQ roulette. That would make it feel a lot more like how things are described in the MSQ (random members of the GCs are placed under our command so we can go into Castrum to destroy the shield generators then infiltrate Praetorium). New players can experience the dungeons at their own pace. Much of Cid's dialog is helpful in letting the player know what they need to do in both dungeons (if someone pays attention), additional dialog can be added to the Trust NPCs that will clear up confusion.
Veteran players still have the other roulettes for leveling alt jobs and getting tomestones. -
07-07-2020, 08:45 PMHadesNight
I really don't see the big deal here. You know what you're signing up for when you click on MSQ roulette. They made the exp rewards amazing and so I do it close to daily. At this point, people still trying to rush it and whining when SE has made their stance clear on it by adding in the unskippable cutscenes are just selfish imo. Is the solution perfect? No, of course not. But it's completely optional content for most players and some of us actually care about making sure newbies have a good first time there.
As a reminder, that content was restricted so New Players would have a chance at actually seeing the story because the community already demonstrated they don't care about people. Older players have already warped the experience a bit by speed rushing the teleports and more often than not warning or waiting for a newbie so they end up getting lost.
If you don't like that content, don't do it. You get the exp rewards if you're willing to sacrifice the time. I don't want a trust, or any other BS. I like doing that content because it's easy, and the exp rewards are fantastic for leveling jobs. If you don't like it, don't queue up. -
07-07-2020, 08:49 PMSamSmootWhen I first ran these, I kept hammering the ESC key hundreds of time, afraid that I'd be kicked for wasting the group's time by watching them (I recently come from WoW) If it were possible to skip the scenes in these mandatory dungeons, some method would be required to protect new player's opportunity to view them, but not delay the progress of those that have run them many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
Perhaps give players an option to group with new players and view the scenes again, for extra rewards. Even leave the experienced folks out of the cutscenes, but frozen, and let them type advice in chat for the new players about to run the next stage. If you choose to skip the scenes, then you don't get grouped with anyone who hasn't seen them yet. -
07-07-2020, 08:57 PMgumas
to be honest iam fine with MSQ DF cutscene lock, it give me time to take a small break or just alt tab and browse internet while wait.
this game try it best to help, guide and give it best welcome mat for new players so i can understand they lock the cutscene for MSQ DF considering the praetorium is basically the ARR finale.
if you want to make sure other than MSQ dungeon didnt lock you in cutscene, just go to option and check those "auto skip cutscene if already seen" option -
07-07-2020, 09:11 PMVidu(Emphasis mine)Quote:
Originally Posted by SamSmoot
We already have extra rewards for people who run those dungeons again - its the huge payout the mainstory roulette gives once a day. Unless you want to make a case to give that kind of reward multiple times a day, its already there. Whenever this topic comes up, people forget that they're already getting compensated for the time they spent in those cutscenes - I could get behind just locking people in place but out of the cutscenes, but honestly: The cutscenes auto-scroll now. The difference between that and being locked in place outside of the cutscene seem rather minimal to me. Typing in chat is enterily possible while in a cutscene (just hit "Enter" to bring up the chat-window). Doing something else is enterily possible while in a cutscene.
Getting the option not to be grouped with new people (aka those who havent seen the cutscenes yet), defeats the purpose of the whole roulette. You're there to help those new people through the dungeon, thats the whole purpose. Thats what you get your reward for: For being willing to sit through these cutscenes.
People dont run those dungeons for progression outside of the MSQ-roulette anymore and the progression granted by the MSQ-roulette is only as good as it is right now because they're taking into account how long the dungeon will take. If that would be shortend in any way - for example by allowing for "skip cutscene"-groups - the reward would need to be adjusted to reflect the effort.
MSQ-roulette is excatly what you're suggesting: Going through the cutscenes again for extra rewards. -
07-08-2020, 01:02 AMGeminiReedThat's extremely situational.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
The current Expert Roulette is perfect for capping Allegory. The prior mix not so much. I rarely bothered with the 80 roulette unless a guild mate wanted to run it. For obvious reasons neither can currently be used for levelling.
Alliance Roulette is often a disaster. If you get a CT raid there's a better than even chance there will be enough "herp-derp mechanics are for cars" folks to cause multiple wipes. Later raids come up rarely enough for people to have forgotten or never learned the mechanics. These days I'll only queue for it if I'm desperate or hanging out with guildmates.
50/60/70, Trials, and normal raids simply aren't worth the bother for xp and even for poetics they're questionable.
Which leaves levelling. There are some very thin time windows where the DPS queues are only mildly atrocious. And if you're willing to wait out the 30+ minute queue you're essentially glued to the computer in case the queue pops earlier than the estimate.
While there are some things you can do while you wait the options are severely limited. Any duty that involves an instance is prohibited. Lengthy cutscenes are risky and apparently some prevent you from accepting the pop. Area transitions are also risky. I've had the game client get confused when the queue popped while moving between areas and it got stuck spinning waiting for the next area to resolve so I could click the accept button.
That doesn't even get into the jobs and roles that I'm not at all comfortable playing with randoms. That's a mix of me not wanting to inflict myself on them and not wanting to put up with certain misbehavior.