Tactful ways to inform people that they're playing badly?

Okay someone seriously hit the like button on the post saying they “HATE” the healer who only healed? Okay seriously I’m done, there is a serious issue with toxic elitism going on and it needs to be called out, this is not acceptable by any means.

Stop letting this cynicism grow and grow here on the forums, seriously it’s only serving to generate hatered on the forums, if other people’s DPS numbers are making you bitter and cynical, then please for your own sake and the sake of the community, STOP LOOKING AT THEM.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Okay someone seriously hit the like button on the post saying they “HATE” the healer who only healed? Okay seriously I’m done, there is a serious issue with toxic elitism going on and it needs to be called out, this is not acceptable by any means.

Stop letting this cynicism grow and grow here on the forums, seriously it’s only serving to generate hatered on the forums, if other people’s DPS numbers are making you bitter and cynical, then please for your own sake and the sake of the community, STOP LOOKING AT THEM.

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You're overreacting.
But please do go on about how its ok for a level 76 AST to only heal, and not use over half their kit, or how it's elitist to expect them to actually use divination, attacking spells, or cards.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

You're overreacting.
But please do go on about how its ok for a level 76 AST to only heal, and not use over half their kit, or how it's elitist to expect them to actually use divination, attacking spells, or cards.

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I’m over reacting because I’m saying it’s not okay to hate people for not playing a video game up to par? What’s wrong with you?

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I’m over reacting because I’m saying it’s not okay to hate people for not playing a video game up to par? What’s wrong with you?

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"i absolutely HATE players like that" =/= "I hate that specific person personally"

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

"i absolutely HATE players like that" =/= "I hate that specific person personally"

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You really need to quit justifying this crap

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

You're overreacting.
But please do go on about how its ok for a level 76 AST to only heal, and not use over half their kit, or how it's elitist to expect them to actually use divination, attacking spells, or cards.

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Attitudes like this are the reason why I quit healing in this game. I used to login after a long shift and enjoy healing and relaxing. Now if a healer is not doing big DPS, compensating for people’s mistakes / laziness and more... there bad.

I play this game to relax. People are turning healing into a stressful second job where you don’t get paid. It’s time for people to stop harassing healers about DPS, period.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Attitudes like this are the reason why I quit healing in this game. I used to login after a long shift and enjoy healing and relaxing. Now if a healer is not doing big DPS, compensating for people’s mistakes / laziness and more... there bad.

I play this game to relax. People are turning healing into a stressful second job where you don’t get paid. It’s time for people to stop harassing healers about DPS, period.

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Expecting a reasonable level of play at a high level isn't an uncommon attitude to have.
"I play the game to relax" is not an excuse to only use half your kit.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

You really need to quit justifying this crap

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From what they said, I don't get what I'm justifying. it's sounds like a person who was frustrated that a healer wasn't using their kit. They even explained that they didn't start an attitude with the healer.

Goes to show how most DPS are bad that healer dps are vital to clear content. When I first started this game I was surprised that healers were expected to dps which makes the trinity job system kinda pointless. SE can't get rid of healer dps spells or they won't be able to clear solo msq content. Technically, they could just restrict dps spells in group content but meh.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Attitudes like this are the reason why I quit healing in this game. I used to login after a long shift and enjoy healing and relaxing. Now if a healer is not doing big DPS, compensating for people’s mistakes / laziness and more... there bad.

I play this game to relax. People are turning healing into a stressful second job where you don’t get paid. It’s time for people to stop harassing healers about DPS, period.

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Sadly attitudes like theirs are just going to keep breading more and more negativity, it’s time it gets called out and directed, regardless of how a person is playing they should be treated with dignity and respect not hatred. Sadly cynicism and bad attitudes here are empowering people to be jerks and it needs to stop. The hyperbole around people not doing things perfectly making them out to be a burden worthy of hatred is becoming a cancer in the community and it’s only going to get worse unless it’s called out for what it is.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Sadly attitudes like theirs are just going to keep breading more and more negativity, it’s time it gets called out and directed, regardless of how a person is playing they should be treated with dignity and respect not hatred. Sadly cynicism and bad attitudes here are empowering people to be jerks and it needs to stop. The hyperbole around people not doing things perfectly making them out to be a burden worthy of hatred is becoming a cancer in the community and it’s only going to get worse unless it’s called out for what it is.

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It is what also keeps DPS queue times long as well since people will be afraid to try non-dps jobs. Elitists never realize how their views affect regular people but think everyone is wrong and they are right after all.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

It is what also keeps DPS queue times long as well since people will be afraid to try non-dps jobs. Elitists never realize how their views affect regular people but think everyone is wrong and they are right after all.

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Dude it’s the truth I finally got out of my shell but reading a lot of posts on here on Reddit made me terrified of trying classes outside of my comfort zone for fear of screwing up my rotation or positionals since I have a learning disability and it takes me longer than most people to get a feel for a class esp ones I haven’t touched in a few years that have been changed since Heavensward. thankfully most people in game aren’t like that.

One thing to keep in mind though is angry people will always be more vocal than the content players. Sure the first Tank or Healer attempt you do may be plagued with issues or rude jerks but its probably more likely you get a string of good or friendly people who will go "He's new, works for me".

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Attitudes like this are the reason why I quit healing in this game. I used to login after a long shift and enjoy healing and relaxing. Now if a healer is not doing big DPS, compensating for people’s mistakes / laziness and more... there bad.

I play this game to relax. People are turning healing into a stressful second job where you don’t get paid. It’s time for people to stop harassing healers about DPS, period.

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So asking you to not stand around doing nothing 80% of the time is now harrassment. Ok. If all you want to do is press a heal button every 60 seconds, I can as well take a bot with me, at least they won't roll for loot ^^

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

Goes to show how most DPS are bad that healer dps are vital to clear content. When I first started this game I was surprised that healers were expected to dps which makes the trinity job system kinda pointless. SE can't get rid of healer dps spells or they won't be able to clear solo msq content. Technically, they could just restrict dps spells in group content but meh.

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healers being dedicated to only healing is a thing in games where most damage is unavoidable and mana is scarce, so they obviously are told to not waste it on damage spells because once they are oom it's a guaranteed wipe. In FF14, most of the damage is avoidable and nullifiable, and mana is infinite. So there is plain and simple no need for healers to preserve mana, so why wouldn't they cast damage spells while they don't hve anything else to do for a minute because the party is at full hp and not taking serious damage?

I mean enjoy trying to clear E2S at min ilvl without healer damage. It's impossible, that's a mathematical fact. So tell me more about how a Raid designed to require healer DPS to kill it means that DPS players are bad :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

healers being dedicated to only healing is a thing in games where most damage is unavoidable and mana is scarce, so they obviously are told to not waste it on damage spells because once they are oom it's a guaranteed wipe. In FF14, most of the damage is avoidable and nullifiable, and mana is infinite. So there is plain and simple no need for healers to preserve mana, so why wouldn't they cast damage spells while they don't hve anything else to do for a minute because the party is at full hp and not taking serious damage?

I mean enjoy trying to clear E2S at min ilvl without healer damage. It's impossible, that's a mathematical fact. So tell me more about how a Raid designed to require healer DPS to kill it means that DPS players are bad :rolleyes:

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Can't comment much on savage content as I don't do it but the fact from all the posts on here is that you people can't even clear it without 3rd party tools anyway. Cheaters looking down on casual players that just wanna have fun just irks me. I joined FF14 since it is mainly a casual themepark mmo and for the most part it delivers. The fact that SE had to change the TOS to prevent toxic players from bitching at players only proves you people are in the minority yet you guys are so vocal on the forums.

If we make it through the duty, I just leave a single concise sentence that their rotation is horrible and that they should look at a guide (assuming they weren't just afk). Depending how bad it was I try to supress the salt. I don't really say anything unless they barely contribute though.

If they are so bad that its making duty completion impossible after multiple wipes, silent kick or leave. No matter how good the feedback, it usually wont make things adequately better for that run, and only adds on the already high time investment.

As for the "only healing" healers. Eh fine. I don't like them, but if the run is otherwise smooth I can live with it. I did see an AST the other day though in Holminster only casting Benefic. Nothing else. No OGCDs. No pause. Just Benefic. JUST BENEFIC. JUST BENEFIC.

Memes aside just the sound effects of the spell started to give me an annurism halfway through the dungeon.

There really is no tactful way to tell people they are bad.
Players who can't handle critisism will always take offense no matter how you do it.
I just stopped saying anything because even if you just want to give advice on how they can improve their performance you are the bad guy and elitist scum that needs to be told off.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

There really is no tactful way to tell people they are bad.
Players who can't handle critisism will always take offense no matter how you do it.
I just stopped saying anything because even if you just want to give advice on how they can improve their performance you are the bad guy and elitist scum that needs to be told off.

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I don't get how people just have zero drive to improve. It doesn't even take much effort. I wonder how they take on single player games. Like SMB 1, always running straight till they fall into the first pit, over and over, nver making it across, but it's fine, bc it's just for fun. No, they learn how to jump properly, because there is no one there to carry them over the pit. It's only in an online enviroment where other people can do it for them where they refuse to learn how to jump acros that pit. It's so weird. Oh and when you calculate the optimal pixel to jump from and how far you hve to jump to make it, you're a toxic elitist cheater ^^

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

I don't get how people just have zero drive to improve. It doesn't even take much effort. I wonder how they take on single player games. Like SMB 1, always running straight till they fall into the first pit, over and over, nver making it across, but it's fine, bc it's just for fun. No, they learn how to jump properly, because there is no one there to carry them over the pit. It's only in an online enviroment where other people can do it for them where they refuse to learn how to jump acros that pit. It's so weird. Oh and when you calculate the optimal pixel to jump from and how far you hve to jump to make it, you're a toxic elitist cheater ^^

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Or they play generally easy games and / or games where even if you dont or cant do the intended mechanic, there is a way to brute force the issue (for example RPGs).

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Or they play generally easy games and / or games where even if you dont or cant do the intended mechanic, there is a way to brute force the issue (for example RPGs).

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It's this weird generation that complains about Dark Souls an Cuphead being "non inclusive" because of difficulty, and feeling entitled that they should be able to play through it without skill because they paid for it, no matter how bad they are. Or even demanding refunds because a game is too hard for them... like are you fkn kidding me? That's exactly the kind of person we're dealing with in every single thread about "toxicity" and "elitism". Entitled spoiled brats.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

I don't see a problem. You can find ANY info on the Internet. If you don't understand something irl, you ask someone who knows or you Google it. Not everyone has time to babysit every new player they meet. Not every new player will even try to listen to more experienced one at all.
Some new player get so used to others jumping around them left and right (*but new player*) so they don't even try to learn anything about the game themselves. And then we see these *aw he's a new player* at lvl 80 doing less dps than a healer. But ofc you're not allowed to tell them that they are not doing well and need to change things. And they get kicked silently. Because by the time you get to 80 you SHOULD know basics and rotation of the class you play. And you can find that info on the Internet. If you're interested enough.
Don't get me wrong, I respect every player in this game, new, veterans, etc and I understand that everyone needs their time. But as myself being new back in HW I was looking for every bit of info I could get, Google, people in DF, asking friends. Because I didn't want to be a burden for people who played that game for years, so finding info is not hard.

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You realize the post you quoted wasn't really talking about a hypothetical crappy level 80 DPS right? He was talking about you being catty with a new player on the forums... a new player who by all accounts tries to be the considerate player you claim to respect. Deflecting to justify your poor behavior here is petty... and I agree, probably indicative of your behavior in-game too.

Which explains a lot... explains a lot of the posts here of the heroic vet players "trying" to help the lowlife, unappreciative new players.

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

You realize the post you quoted wasn't really talking about a hypothetical crappy level 80 DPS right? He was talking about you being catty with a new player on the forums... a new player who by all accounts tries to be the considerate player you claim to respect. Deflecting to justify your poor behavior here is petty... and I agree, probably indicative of your behavior in-game too.

Which explains a lot... explains a lot of the posts here of the heroic vet players "trying" to help the lowlife, unappreciative new players.

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you will find that the community in-game is a lot less toxic than the forums and is generally more helpful, assuming you find them/join a good FC or linkshell.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

Can't comment much on savage content as I don't do it but the fact from all the posts on here is that you people can't even clear it without 3rd party tools anyway. Cheaters looking down on casual players that just wanna have fun just irks me. I joined FF14 since it is mainly a casual themepark mmo and for the most part it delivers. The fact that SE had to change the TOS to prevent toxic players from bitching at players only proves you people are in the minority yet you guys are so vocal on the forums.

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That’s part of the problem, these toxic elitists basically view every bit of casual content the same way they do savage, I guarantee you if these people didn’t have access to other people’s numbers you would he hearing from them a lot less. I’m honestly a bit terrified of some of these people, if they get this angry over people making mistakes in a video game what would happen if someone cut them off in traffic or messed JP their food order? A scary thought I don’t want to consider.

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Originally Posted by Renka777

i just had a healer who was doing nothing but healing on a 76 lvl dungeon,an astro player and guess what.. he was not even using a single divination,i was very very frustrated

i needed to go let go my frustration so i told him what i think about his "gameplay" right after the last boss death(without any bad words) and i left instantly,if i was with friends he would be instant kicked after the 1st pulls/boss ,i absolutely HATE players like that

edit : dont waste your time to argue with my post

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Oh no. A healer who didn't DPS. The shock and horror. I'm shaking right now. I can't believe this. Better go on the forums and tell people how much I hate this one rando who I'll never see again, who didn't, gasp, DPS, more gasping.

Okay, TIL that trying to improve yourself with parses is cheating... :confused:
This is honestly the first MMO I've played where it seems the majority of players actively push against attempts to improve at cap. And this is also the MMO with the lowest average skill out of the ones I've played. What's so bad about... not being bad? The cries of "toxicity" and "elitism" when you expect more than the very bare minimum from capped players is baffling.

Disclaimer because I guess I have to: None of this applies to sprouts/casual content. You should never expect perfection from new players. They still need to learn, don't yell at them. If they ask for advice, thank the Twelve, and help them. If they don't ask? It's easy content, the world won't end because Daniel Dragoon in Shisui of the Violet Tides didn't keep up buffs 100% of the time or Harry Healer overhealed the tank every trash pull - move on.

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Originally Posted by MikuMitsuko

Okay, TIL that trying to improve yourself with parses is cheating... :confused:
.

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If that’s the full extent of it I’m fine with it, it’s when people start posting about other people’s numbers esp in casual content where it becomes an issue.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

If that’s the full extent of it I’m fine with it, it’s when people start posting about other people’s numbers esp in casual content where it becomes an issue.

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I definitely agree with that. It's because of people who do those things that parsers are against the ToS :/. Outside of high-end content the only numbers that matter should be your own numbers.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

If that’s the full extent of it I’m fine with it, it’s when people start posting about other people’s numbers esp in casual content where it becomes an issue.

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Hows that an issue? As you say yourself it doesn't matter in casual content, so why would you care about someone posting about those? Also I still highly doubt it happens half as often as people claim. I tried plying DRG. I sucked. My numbers sucked. If someone would hve called me out saying my numbers sucked, I would have agreed with them because I was alread shaking my head at myself. How many people commented on my numbers? None. Zero.

You feel entitled to sh*it all over endgame players, calling them toxic, cheaters, potential dangerous criminals irl (lol), and then act outraged when you get bombared with smug and cynical responses.

You don't really. Cause unless you're making a PF the only options you really have are to kick or leave. Because lets be blunt, most people rather they new or not do not want you random person they will never see again telling them anything. Even if it's the truth, people in general don't want other people telling them what to do. does it suck, ofcourse but thats the world we live in. From my limited time ingame I just laugh and move on. It's not worth it to try to pretty up words that lack tone because there's no voice. But I'm just a dps anyway so my only job is kill shit so....

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

Hows that an issue? As you say yourself it doesn't matter in casual content, so why would you care about someone posting about those? Also I still highly doubt it happens half as often as people claim. I tried plying DRG. I sucked. My numbers sucked. If someone would hve called me out saying my numbers sucked, I would have agreed with them because I was alread shaking my head at myself. How many people commented on my numbers? None. Zero.

You feel entitled to sh*it all over endgame players, calling them toxic, cheaters, potential dangerous criminals irl (lol), and then act outraged when you get bombared with smug and cynical responses.

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I did no such thing, I know plenty of Endgame players who don’t act like jerks about people in casual content not playing completely up to par. I was not calling out all Endgame players at all just the ones with bad attitudes towards those less skilled than they are.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

you will find that the community in-game is a lot less toxic than the forums and is generally more helpful, assuming you find them/join a good FC or linkshell.

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Honestly, I don't think I've met a single nasty person in the game yet. And I've met a few outstandingly nice people. And that's just from the duty finder really. So I believe it. But I'm only ~level 40-50 and I'm still doing level 30-40 MSQ content so there's plenty of opportunity still for that to change lol.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I did no such thing, I know plenty of Endgame players who don’t act like jerks about people in casual content not playing completely up to par. I was not calling out all Endgame players at all just the ones with bad attitudes towards those less skilled than they are.

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You're trying to make an "I hate players who do XY" comment into something it's not (yes I looked it up). According to your logic every human that ever said they hated this or that is a hate filled angry person who is a threat to society and wouldprobably kill someone for cutting them in traffic or something. You're a prime example of someone that tries to make everyone walk on eggshells, because as soon as they act or talk like a normal human being, they will be dissected until you find 10 reasons why they're toxic and phobic and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

Honestly, I don't think I've met a single nasty person in the game yet. And I've met a few outstandingly nice people. And that's just from the duty finder really. So I believe it. But I'm only ~level 40-50 and I'm still doing level 30-40 MSQ content so there's plenty of opportunity still for that to change lol.

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I’ve had very, very few experiences like that in game I can probably count them on my hand. I recall back when I was a pretty new player I was having trouble on the first boss of the great gubal library and the healer said “you guys should uninstall the game and find something else to play because you are no good at this one” then they rage quit the duty. We got another healer and we were fine. Another time back when shield oath was lvl 40 someone was telling me to use it and saying I was bad for not having it in a lower lvl duty where it wasn’t available(I was very green back then and I didn’t realize the second boss of the sunken temple had a separate aggro table for the heart) but those are two out of countless, countless positive experiences I’ve had in the game. Did those instances give me anxiety for a while? Yes but like I said few and far between.

I think there's just a lack of self awareness in general (in a lot of areas of society these days tbh).

Both from the new players who don't recognize that they're a burden/drain on others if they aren't actively trying to improve. And the vet players who think they're Gods gift just for giving struggling players the time of day, no matter how carelessly the words come out (then come on here to brag/complain about it).

Fixing it would involve both sides working a little harder to be better to eachother.

There seems to be an assumption or expectation that people should go online to read guides and stuff, and many people don't do that, a lot don't even know they exist...they just play the game, and have nothing to do with the game outside of the time they press "play" and "exit game".

I've played on and off with the same people since EQ1, some 20 years ago across various games, and to this day I know some who have never read a guide for their class, or guide for dungeons or raids. The most they've done is get add-ons, or read up on where a piece of gear drops. For the most part they just play the game and enjoy figuring out stuff on their own, which part of the fun for them. I respect that, even if sometimes it's frustrating. :)

The thing is, we cannot expect all the people to play the game the same way, to put the same effort into. There's different people who enjoy different things, or course it's frustrating sometimes because we're all thrown in together.

At the end of the day, if you solo queue for duties, or don't have a pre-made group then the reality is that you should be ready for this and accept it. If you're not, then you're probably going to have a very bad time for a very long time because it's not going to change EVER.

When I queue solo for a dungeons, I fully prepared to die a few times learning fights if someone is new, or that the dungeon might take 30-40 minutes instead of a quick 20 because of new or bad players. I find myself having a much better experience if I don't go in expecting a perfect run all the time, much less stressful too. :)

There is an issue to constructive criticism and just being plain rude
I for one always welcome tips and hints and have thanked folks in the past

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

You're trying to make an "I hate players who do XY" comment into something it's not (yes I looked it up). According to your logic every human that ever said they hated this or that is a hate filled angry person who is a threat to society and wouldprobably kill someone for cutting them in traffic or something. You're a prime example of someone that tries to make everyone walk on eggshells, because as soon as they act or talk like a normal human being, they will be dissected until you find 10 reasons why they're toxic and phobic and whatnot.

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You seem easily offended.

If they're doing the basics right, I'm good.
For tanks that means keeping aggro and picking up stray mobs within a reasonable time, dodging aoes and using def cds. If the tank actives Rampart right before running into a group, it's not optimal but I won't nitpick.
For healers that means keeping the party alive as long as the incoming damage is reasonable, dispell as neccessary, dodge aoes. I don't expect them to heal other's stupidity. If they can, good, but in the end it's up to the party to avoid avoidable damage.
For dps that means using aoe at 3+ mobs and single target for everything below that, dodging aoes and using their own dps buffs, even if timed a bit poorly like Raging Strikes towards the end of a fight.

If someone gets something fundamentally wrong like a RDM constantly hardcasting Impact/ Veraero/ Verthunder, A BLM standing around after MP are drained to wait for Astral Fire to fall off, a DNC not choosing a dance partner at 60+, a SMN not calling his pet, a tank not turning on tank stance even after the first pack of mobs had a field day whacking everyone but the tank, a healer spamming expensive heals without needing to and being out of MP halfway into the fight or trying to single target heal with Medica, I will politely speak up with something like "hey [name], don't you want to dance with me? :( I won't step on your toes, I promise!".
Yes, I've seen all of those. Not regulary but it does happen.

I think the moment you queue for something via DF you agree to teamplay similiar to a teamsport. Nobody likes their goalkeeper to stand at the side and pick his nose while the other team scores one goal after another. And they will speak up, even if it's just a casual game, even if they don't really know each other.
So I think the "nobody would do that in real life" is invalid.
I don't need to be a top football player to know that goalkeeper is supposed to stay close to the goal. Nor does somebody needs a WHM at 80 to tell me, that I shouldn't heal with Medica if the tank is the only one taking damage. If they know better than me, for whatever reason, I will heed their advice. The results speak for themselves and if they don't, I can always revert back to "my" way of doing things. No harm in trying something differently, if only briefly.

Nitpicking on minor things like less-than-optimal oGCD timing or prattling on and on about full rotations is imho pointless in DF. Keep it short, stick to the most imporant things and don't immediately jump in after one mistake. Fat fingering is a thing that happened to the best of us.
But if I notice someone seems receptive to advice, I will gladly stay behind as long as they are willing to listen and tell them what I know about the class they struggle with. But I won't force a full essay down anyone's throat who doesn't want advice.
If they're playing so poorly it prevents a decently smooth run and got aggressive after a polite attempt to give them a pointer, that's imho just as toxic as someone rudely commenting on poor gameplay and I will aim for a votekick. If that doesn't help, I will leave.

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Originally Posted by Valderen

There seems to be an assumption or expectation that people should go online to read guides and stuff, and many people don't do that, a lot don't even know they exist...they just play the game, and have nothing to do with the game outside of the time they press "play" and "exit game".

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I stand by the fact that "googling" for this game isn't as cut and dry as some are making it out to be. There's a reason why I leveled Maurader to 15 for no reason a few weeks ago thinking I needed it to unlock Dragoon. It wasn't for lack of effort.

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Originally Posted by Dreakon13

I stand by the fact that "googling" for this game isn't as cut and dry as some are making it out to be. There's a reason why I leveled Maurader to 15 for no reason a few weeks ago thinking I needed it to unlock Dragoon. It wasn't for lack of effort.

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The funny thing about google is that sometimes, not all but sometimes you can get different results based on your info google has. I don't have hard core facts on it but there have been times me and someone else googled the same thing only to be met with different results. But I think that's based on ADs and what info google has tracked for you/of you. For guides on this game you do come up with alot of -old- advice, but the actual best way is to search on reddit and or various discords. Because yeah google isn't perfect and while you can get up to date info, there are times you get 4.0 guides for classes in 5.0. It happened to me on monk so I know you're not wrong.