Reminder that war is still good.

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08-11-2019, 07:10 AM
MerlinCross

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nedkel

To be honest, Nascent Flash macro is the clunkiest thing to use in the universe. Super slow, unresponsive, just all bad

You're not wrong but I find trying to use it in the middle of a fight manually is also kinda clunky. And this is coming form a former DRK that often tried to throw out TBN on characters with damage taken up or low HP from a coming Raid hit. In part due to it possibly not being needed? Oh the 10% damage reduction for them is okay but most the time the healer(s) are also going to jump on that drop of HP as well. And if I need the HP? Well Equilibrium is still sitting there.

Personally I find the short duration to be really annoying to try and quickly work in what attack(s) I need for the HP as well and if I'm that low to need Feel Cleave HP, again the healer(s) are also probably jumping on me in which case I'm probably popping Thrill of Battle.

Now Nascent Flash seems to be just okay to niche for me. I'd rather just pop Raw Intuition but I don't do EX/Savage so maybe it sees better use there?
08-11-2019, 07:57 AM
Kouhai

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saeno

What makes it any clunkier than a Intervention/ Blackest Night/ heart of Stone/ Shirk macro?

Intervention isn't used often, same with shirk, 2 minutes is a pretty long cooldown and you usually do it every 3-5 minutes. Blackest night and heart of stone can be used on yourself. Nascent flash NEEDS another person for YOUR OWN mitigation, that's what makes it clunky. Not only that, but since it's a 25 second CD, you use it often and can fumble quite easily if you are unprepared.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MerlinCross

You're not wrong but I find trying to use it in the middle of a fight manually is also kinda clunky. And this is coming form a former DRK that often tried to throw out TBN on characters with damage taken up or low HP from a coming Raid hit. In part due to it possibly not being needed? Oh the 10% damage reduction for them is okay but most the time the healer(s) are also going to jump on that drop of HP as well. And if I need the HP? Well Equilibrium is still sitting there.

Personally I find the short duration to be really annoying to try and quickly work in what attack(s) I need for the HP as well and if I'm that low to need Feel Cleave HP, again the healer(s) are also probably jumping on me in which case I'm probably popping Thrill of Battle.

Now Nascent Flash seems to be just okay to niche for me. I'd rather just pop Raw Intuition but I don't do EX/Savage so maybe it sees better use there?

You can easily prep a fell cleave or two for nascent flash and even if you get like: eye > upheaval > fell cleave > heavy swing, it will still heal much more than what raw intuition will mitigate from autos, even on E4S where Titan autos for around 30-31K.
08-11-2019, 08:22 AM
Saeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kouhai

Intervention isn't used often, same with shirk, 2 minutes is a pretty long cooldown and you usually do it every 3-5 minutes. Blackest night and heart of stone can be used on yourself. Nascent flash NEEDS another person for YOUR OWN mitigation, that's what makes it clunky. Not only that, but since it's a 25 second CD, you use it often and can fumble quite easily if you are unprepared.

Intervention is used quite often as it is used whenever it is needed as with shirk. Im not sure where 3-5 minutes comes from. Blackest night and HoS of course can be used on self but it requires the same macro as nascent if you want to help the MT. If using Nascent for self mitigation is what you want, you always have Raw intuition as an option. Using Nascent for self healing through autos instead of mitigating damage is an optimization, not a necessity. There are rarely ever cases where you will die by using Raw instead of Nascent. In fact i'd argue in high end content, Raw is what will save you more often than Nascent.

I don't disagree with nascent being usable without a target, in fact I support it. What I don't agree with is the clunkiness of the macro because every single tank has to deal with . Just like how healers use macros to place benison and excog on tanks. If you're OTing you still have to help your MT by giving him mitigation and using that macro just like any other tank.
08-11-2019, 02:23 PM
IntrovertAnt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kouhai

Intervention isn't use very often...

I use intervention alot in boss fights. If I'm OT, I'll burn a tank CD and give it to my MT. With double tanks Busters it's a perfect time to use it IE Titania Ex, E1S, E2S, etc.
I don't think there is a boss fight where I'm not using intervention at least 3+ times a fight and even more for some.

To make intervention less clunky, I use the mouse over macro and it works really well. For consistency I mouse over their name on the party list, but in an "oh shit the MT is going to die next hit" moments I can just mouse over their character in a pinch (and this can be done with cover and clemency as well).
08-11-2019, 07:20 PM
Xariann

I still love WAR and main it, and I get a lot of comments on how I am easy to heal, because I think it's fantastic defensively.

My main gripe is that, while we don't have a threat combo to worry about now, a couple of things that should have been changed to bring it in line with the other tanks have been left untouched.

Overpower and Storm's Eye being at the end of a three-move combo are my main gripes.

Nascent Flash needing someone else to be alive or targeted is also annoying, but it's my go-to CD for AOE and I don't think any other tanks has such a strong AOE tanking CD.
08-11-2019, 10:50 PM
Azrael-XIII

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xariann

I still love WAR and main it, and I get a lot of comments on how I am easy to heal, because I think it's fantastic defensively.

My main gripe is that, while we don't have a threat combo to worry about now, a couple of things that should have been changed to bring it in line with the other tanks have been left untouched.

Overpower and Storm's Eye being at the end of a three-move combo are my main gripes.

I agree, I think storms eye needs a bit of a QoL change to bring it a little more in line with the other tanks’ damage buffs. I’d say either have it’s dura cap at 60 seconds instead of 30 (like Darkside for DRK) and/or allow it to combo off heavy swing instead of maim so it’s only a two hit combo. It’d be nice if mythril tempest also *applied* it instead of just extended it, it’s irritating always having to start a large trash pull with a single target combo instead of just immediately going into aoe combo like every other tank (DRK gets Edge AND Flood for this very reason)

I also just wish the target requirements for overpower was removed (but still would be directed at enemy if targeted), it’s just another mechanic that, while not terrible, just feels clunkier to use than the other 3 tanks versions atm
08-14-2019, 02:08 PM
VenKitsune

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kouhai

War's utility is DPS. The reason why you would bring a war was because of more dps. Now there's no reason to bring a war if it doesn't have it's utility. You'd bring a war in HW because it was a dps loss for the nin to put up slashing. In SB it was a dps loss to not bring a slashing person in general and mnk/drg was really good, so you would bring a war. Now war has the least party utility, the tie for least damage, and it's self mitigation isn't even that great compared to other classes. It's invuln is really it's only benefit at the moment. This is why people want warrior to be top dps because if you bring a war, you want more dps.

Im sorry but thats not true, not anymore. in ARR PLD was actually the highest dps tank - you brought WAR as the MT because of inner beast, a quick to generate 20% damage reduction you could used on tank busters like Death sentence. It's only in HW and SB that it was the "damage tank", now with the introduction of GNB, WAR has gone back to its original identity of quick dirty cooldowns for each tank buster that have no cost. Sheltron? Need gague. TBN? Needs MP. Heart of stone? Kinda weak, technically better put on someone else due to Brutal shell transferance. Raw intuition? Only a 25 second cooldown rampart. A 25 SECOND COOLDOWN RAMPART.

WAR has some of the best personal mitigation in the game right now, not to mention vengeance hitting the enemy back. WAR's defensive abilities justify its lower damage, all thats changed is its idenity, this isnt a matter of balance.
Infact, i'd argue it wasnt ever a "damage tank" but rather a "selfish tank", which has been maintained with narcean flash being the weakest of all of the single target co-tank cooldowns, and sharing a cooldown with raw intuition.

With that in mind there are two "archetypes" of tanks right now - PLD/WAR are the utility and party support tanks by offering tools for that such as veil of passage or by just doing their job really well, and GNB/DRK are the single target buffers - HOS/TBN being excellent co-tank tools, both with only a single way to support the party in the form of a magic damage down, not general damage. And before you argue most aoe's are magical anyway, thats not quite the case anymore, ShB added in plenty of Physical aoe's, even in savage, making Shake/Veil much more desirable.

if WAR gets any kind of damage buff, it might be justifiable to argue for like maybe an extra 10 potency on fell cleave or its path combo. Nothing more.

DRK on the other hand, definately needs some damage buffs. Much like in SB, TBN is the only thing keeping it relevant right now. For once in its life WAR is actually balanced - its the other tanks that need minor tweaks, WAR is perfectly fine where its sitting right now.
08-15-2019, 05:10 AM
Saeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by VenKitsune

Im sorry but thats not true, not anymore. in ARR PLD was actually the highest dps tank - you brought WAR as the MT because of inner beast, a quick to generate 20% damage reduction you could used on tank busters like Death sentence. It's only in HW and SB that it was the "damage tank", now with the introduction of GNB, WAR has gone back to its original identity of quick dirty cooldowns for each tank buster that have no cost. Sheltron? Need gague. TBN? Needs MP. Heart of stone? Kinda weak, technically better put on someone else due to Brutal shell transferance. Raw intuition? Only a 25 second cooldown rampart. A 25 SECOND COOLDOWN RAMPART.

I understand this isn't entirely related to the topic but WAR was OT for ARR in most if not all groups because competing for aggro against a PLD that only spammed Rage of Halone was annoying. In some fights like T8 people used WAR MT but then it was discovered you could just solo tank all of second coil with a PLD.

WAR imo was a damn good tank for t13 but at the point of final coil, so many people were so dead set on PLD MT that WAR's never really MT'd for that fight. There was also still the issue of competing for aggro when you want your WAR to just spam path and eye on Bahamut, meaning little BB combos.

Also, I believe Raw intuition is good but it's on par with all of the other tank CD's except HoS. Sheltron lasts longer than Raw and has a shorter recast while also having the flexibility of being used in different areas. You also get 50 gauge every 22.4 seconds meaning it has a shorter theoretical recast than Raw. TBN has a 3k MP cost but any good DRK stays above 3k MP regardless. TBN is also much stronger than all other tank short CDs. I think what makes WAR excel is how universal Thrill is and how good Equilibrium is. No other tank can do what Equilibrium does unless you want to sacrifice DPS on Clemency.
08-15-2019, 05:23 AM
whiskeybravo

Yea honestly I'm really enjoying being able to use Equilibrium more freely. I don't really like what they did with Thrill, CD reduction is nice but getting a lv78 trait for an effect we had access to since ARR just rubs me the wrong way. Really lazy on SE's part.
08-15-2019, 11:59 AM
VenKitsune

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saeno

I understand this isn't entirely related to the topic but WAR was OT for ARR in most if not all groups because competing for aggro against a PLD that only spammed Rage of Halone was annoying. In some fights like T8 people used WAR MT but then it was discovered you could just solo tank all of second coil with a PLD.

WAR imo was a damn good tank for t13 but at the point of final coil, so many people were so dead set on PLD MT that WAR's never really MT'd for that fight. There was also still the issue of competing for aggro when you want your WAR to just spam path and eye on Bahamut, meaning little BB combos.

Huh? What dimension were you playing in? In hardcore groups PLD was almost always OT - Sword oath made PLD top dps tank, and back then magic attacks couldn't be blocked or parried. WAR was almost always MT. Im not sure why you're making mention of agro concerns - PLD in an OT role used Sword oath, not shield oath. Agro was not a concern, if it was then the WAR was bad. Back then Path had no benefits other than the heal, so it was Eye in to BB, path was rarely touched and only used as OT while defiance was on, allowing for wrath accumulation and reducing agro concerns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saeno

Also, I believe Raw intuition is good but it's on par with all of the other tank CD's except HoS. Sheltron lasts longer than Raw and has a shorter recast while also having the flexibility of being used in different areas. You also get 50 gauge every 22.4 seconds meaning it has a shorter theoretical recast than Raw. TBN has a 3k MP cost but any good DRK stays above 3k MP regardless. TBN is also much stronger than all other tank short CDs. I think what makes WAR excel is how universal Thrill is and how good Equilibrium is. No other tank can do what Equilibrium does unless you want to sacrifice DPS on Clemency.

I'd argue that RI is one of the best - Sure, TBN is the best but it can be put on other players, it isnt limited to the caster like RI, and so that comparison only works in a vacuum. RI can literally be used on cooldown to make WAR the tank that takes the less damage overall through the whole fight - affording healers more time to do damage. Rampart and Vengence can be used on tank busters, and TBN, HOS, Intervention can all be cast by the other tank on a WAR MT. Sure, Thrill is nice, but i dont agree with "no other tank can do what equilibirum does" - It has the same potency as Aurora. Also, both Celemency and aurora can be cast on other people, equilibirum can not.

All the facts point to the effect that SE WANTS WAR to be the defacto "Main tank", all its cooldowns are selfish and plentiful, and the only tank that has a healing received increase.
08-16-2019, 12:33 AM
Saeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by VenKitsune

Huh? What dimension were you playing in? In hardcore groups PLD was almost always OT - Sword oath made PLD top dps tank, and back then magic attacks couldn't be blocked or parried. WAR was almost always MT. Im not sure why you're making mention of agro concerns - PLD in an OT role used Sword oath, not shield oath. Agro was not a concern, if it was then the WAR was bad.

To get more information of what people did back then, I skimmed through many different clear and speed kill videos on ARR and all of them had PLD pulling. I myself have rarely seen WAR pull. If you wanted to maximize DPS on tanks, you could just have the PLD pull in Sword oath and now both tanks are doing their top DPS. I still think it was better for WAR to pull with Unchained and have the PLD voke after the WAR used their cooldowns so the WAR didnt have to fight for aggro. WAR out of Defiance did comparable numbers to PLD in Sword oath. PLD may have not been able to block magic at the time but their mitigation was similar because WAR did not have Raw or Rampart at the time. Also, most hard hitting attacks in 2.x were Physical damage. Things like Flare breath were scary, but not so bad with a MNK and apoc.

PLD in sword oath still spams Halone. WAR does not spam Butchers block. It should be obvious why aggro is an issue. I've played a lot of WAR in 2.x and I always disliked trying to beat the aggro generation of PLD while also staying out of Defiance. Unchained helped but this was when Unchained was on a 2 minute recast and cost 5 wrath stacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VenKitsune

Back then Path had no benefits other than the heal, so it was Eye in to BB, path was rarely touched and only used as OT while defiance was on, allowing for wrath accumulation and reducing agro concerns.

Path also reduced all damage dealt by 10%. Path was the single greatest skill in the entire game. If you didn't have Path up you were actively making things harder for your team only for a 30 potency gain over 15 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VenKitsune

I'd argue that RI is one of the best - Sure, TBN is the best but it can be put on other players, it isnt limited to the caster like RI, and so that comparison only works in a vacuum. RI can literally be used on cooldown to make WAR the tank that takes the less damage overall through the whole fight - affording healers more time to do damage. Rampart and Vengence can be used on tank busters, and TBN, HOS, Intervention can all be cast by the other tank on a WAR MT. Sure, Thrill is nice, but i dont agree with "no other tank can do what equilibirum does" - It has the same potency as Aurora. Also, both Celemency and aurora can be cast on other people, equilibirum can not.

Using Raw on cooldown does not make it the best. In fact using a Cooldown just for the sake of putting it on CD is bad practice because you will then not have it for when you need it. This is what makes Sheltron for example better than Raw. On top of having basically the same effect on a 1 second longer duration, you can also keep it on standby for when you actually need it and then have another sheltron ready sooner than later depending on your gauge. Raw is good, but it's not the best. All of them are around the same power level. Raw intuition does not push WAR to be the MT over the other tanks. I also don't agree with Raw being limited to the caster as Nascent Flash is also pretty good. It lasts 1 second longer than Raw but it also has a better effect than intervention in most cases. It benefits both tanks where all other short CD's benefit just 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VenKitsune

All the facts point to the effect that SE WANTS WAR to be the defacto "Main tank", all its cooldowns are selfish and plentiful, and the only tank that has a healing received increase.

None of the tanks in this game are pushed to be a main or off tank. Main or off tank should be determined by strats and tank invul placements.
WAR also only has a healing received increase if you use Thrill. Thrill needs that healing increase attached to it because otherwise it is a much weaker CD than most others in terms of effective HP.
All tanks have a lot of CD's and WAR isn't exactly selfish. It's selfish with Equilibrium but that's about it.
08-16-2019, 12:44 AM
Soraki-Muppe

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Yea honestly I'm really enjoying being able to use Equilibrium more freely. I don't really like what they did with Thrill, CD reduction is nice but getting a lv78 trait for an effect we had access to since ARR just rubs me the wrong way. Really lazy on SE's part.

IMHO all the WAR changes for this expansion seems lazy.
Use infuriate and you get access to chaos attacks that both use older animations.
They removed way more then they added, the result a job that feels boring. Still good, just boring.
08-18-2019, 06:42 PM
BarretOblivion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saeno

None of the tanks in this game are pushed to be a main or off tank. Main or off tank should be determined by strats and tank invul placements.
WAR also only has a healing received increase if you use Thrill. Thrill needs that healing increase attached to it because otherwise it is a much weaker CD than most others in terms of effective HP.
All tanks have a lot of CD's and WAR isn't exactly selfish. It's selfish with Equilibrium but that's about it.

I would have to disagree with you on this part. WAR is indeed designed to be the MT for three big reasons.

1) Nascent flash. You get half your cure potency on your OT with nascent flash resulting in healing that... is so bad that it might be an auto attack and some change if set up, this results in only a 10% mitigation on your OT which is equivalent to a reprisal on a TB which your OT is going to do anyways. Meanwhile all other OT skills have more mitigation so WAR kinda loses on the OT side on that because Nascent is a decent self heal even in Savage when its 100%.

2) Vengeance, namely the potency tied to it. It might only be 50 potency but if you use it on your opener with IR (like most high tier WAR have been doing) it add helps boost its damage. With out being MT and using Vengeance on cooldown or during every TB you can that is a total of about 250-300 potency in the long run, its not much but its about 1 GCD you are throwing away.

3) Holmgang still exists. The fact that holmgang is still the shortest tank invuln allowing more usages than any other tank makes WAR still preffered to MT on top of the other reasons. Unfortunately WAR is not excatly played much in Savage outside of Leviathan, which there WAR actually brings a strong Nascent flash you should be using on cooldown the entire fight (except the 4th TB) and then Holmganging TB 1&3. Since Leviathan is auto attacking both tanks you end up gaining a total party healing of 50% on Nascent making it actually pretty good on healers to focus a bit more on DPS or mechanics. Any help right now in Leviathan is appreciated by healers cause the heal checks in there... are pretty dicey.
08-19-2019, 02:00 PM
Saeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

1) Nascent flash. You get half your cure potency on your OT with nascent flash resulting in healing that... is so bad that it might be an auto attack and some change if set up, this results in only a 10% mitigation on your OT which is equivalent to a reprisal on a TB which your OT is going to do anyways. Meanwhile all other OT skills have more mitigation so WAR kinda loses on the OT side on that because Nascent is a decent self heal even in Savage when its 100%.

That healing is not strong when used on regular CD's but 3 GCD's worth of healing is not a bad amount. The 10% mit is still really good because it's the same as a naked intervention, which is also a good move on its own. I find Nascent to be a better version of a naked intervention and even at 20% mit intervention, if you can Inner chaos during Nascent, you can heal both tanks for a decent amount. I dont think Nascent is bad enough to make it worse than Raw, especially when in some situations Nascent is better than Raw for just yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

2) Vengeance, namely the potency tied to it. It might only be 50 potency but if you use it on your opener with IR (like most high tier WAR have been doing) it add helps boost its damage. With out being MT and using Vengeance on cooldown or during every TB you can that is a total of about 250-300 potency in the long run, its not much but its about 1 GCD you are throwing away.

This I can agree with. Vengeance potency is only available when you take physical damage and you can't take that if you're OT obviously. I personally think that this should also force the holmgang on the first TB of the fight because you're now down a 30% mitigation tool while the OT on the opener still has theirs available. In fights where the damage is all magic like in Innocence or Voidwalker I don't think WAR is a mandatory MT at all. I personally prefer PLD MT for innocence for their ability to get full uptime when moving the boss during quad starbirth and DRK MT for Dark mind on shadowflame. In Leviathan, if a PLD is one of the tanks I prefer using Hallowed on the first Rip current because otherwise you do not get another Hallowed before Black smokers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

3) Holmgang still exists. The fact that holmgang is still the shortest tank invuln allowing more usages than any other tank makes WAR still preffered to MT on top of the other reasons. Unfortunately WAR is not exactly played much in Savage outside of Leviathan, which there WAR actually brings a strong Nascent flash you should be using on cooldown the entire fight (except the 4th TB) and then Holmganging TB 1&3. Since Leviathan is auto attacking both tanks you end up gaining a total party healing of 50% on Nascent making it actually pretty good on healers to focus a bit more on DPS or mechanics. Any help right now in Leviathan is appreciated by healers cause the heal checks in there... are pretty dicey.

This goes hand in hand with my earlier statement. Your pulling tank should be determined by your tank invul placements. If your group prefers Holmgang on TBs then it's something you can obviously do. However, in cases like Titan, you can only holmgang 2 out of the 3 stone crushers. This means mitigating the first hit and then holmgang the last 2 which then means your WAR is tapped on CD's while your OT still has everything available. This is a good place to tank swap. Or, if your group prefers, you can use the other tank invul for the opener instead since the others cover all 3 hits. At the end of the day it all comes down to what your team prefers. This isnt like SB where one tank was clearly the best at pulling and another tank was awful at it. I see no reason why any tank can't pull if you prefer to use invuls on other mechanics during prog while tank swapping the tank busters during prog.
08-20-2019, 12:18 AM
whiskeybravo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saeno

This goes hand in hand with my earlier statement. Your pulling tank should be determined by your tank invul placements. If your group prefers Holmgang on TBs then it's something you can obviously do. However, in cases like Titan, you can only holmgang 2 out of the 3 stone crushers. This means mitigating the first hit and then holmgang the last 2 which then means your WAR is tapped on CD's while your OT still has everything available. This is a good place to tank swap. Or, if your group prefers, you can use the other tank invul for the opener instead since the others cover all 3 hits. At the end of the day it all comes down to what your team prefers. This isnt like SB where one tank was clearly the best at pulling and another tank was awful at it. I see no reason why any tank can't pull if you prefer to use invuls on other mechanics during prog while tank swapping the tank busters during prog.

This is true with Leviathan. We started out with me pulling and holmganging the first buster, but have since changed to have the PLD pull and hallowed so that he can have hallowed again for black smokers.

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