Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I mean sure but if you're going to invoke a manual rotation which involves the usage of Whistle to overcome that hurdle then you're already using a skill which is more busted than all of the aforementioned abilities (minus Ingenuity), collectively. That skill will trivialise any challenge you throw at it. At that point the only challenge you're imposing on yourself is learning how to properly use that skill.

With respect to doing it without Ingenuity nobody here is going to believe that on your fleeting word in any circumstance, especially taking into an account that the ability factors for 50%~ of the quality gain.

---

He knows that, haha. I believe he’s just trying to provoke me into getting banned on here again like someone else previously did. He also did not address what I posted 1-2 pages ago. I’m waiting on that.

We should really stop letting our feelings do the talking, and actually admit that crafting is just too easy at this point, it’s really that simple. No shame in admitting such a thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Temjiu

I think the issue with crafting is they would need to design it so that you would have to interact, press buttons, etc. in order to craft. It seems that they've been going away from this as a necessity, so not sure if they would turn around and change it all.

---

They really should try to implement something like that. Turning end game crafting into a children’s mini-game really isn’t the way to reward players that spent months/weeks getting things leveled and geared.

I'm still hoping the crafts for the Ishgard Restoration rankings will have unreachably high collectability caps so there might actually be a slight "challenge" in trying to build the quality on them as ridiculously high as possible using specialist skills and what not.

Or they can just make it based around spamming quantity over quality which lets the bots win by default (Which is what I'm expecting).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm still hoping the crafts for the Ishgard Restoration rankings will have unreachably high collectability caps so there might actually be a slight "challenge" in trying to build the quality on them as ridiculously high as possible using specialist skills and what not.

Or they can just make it based around spamming quantity over quality which lets the bots win by default (Which is what I'm expecting).

---

That’s actually interesting. As for the second suggestion, yeah...I’m unfortunately expecting 5.1 Ishgard recipe content to just be based on numbers. Which, bots excel in.

Crafting is definitely way too easy right now to be very fun, but I'm hoping 5.1 will be better. Between actual master crafting and the apparent major changes to DoH/DoL I'm going to try and stay hopeful...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

That’s actually interesting. As for the second suggestion, yeah...I’m unfortunately expecting 5.1 Ishgard recipe content to just be based on numbers. Which, bots excel in.

---

*looks at name*

https://i.imgflip.com/384wx4.jpg

(I'm meming, don't be mad )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

*looks at name*

https://i.imgflip.com/384wx4.jpg

(I'm meming, don't be mad )

---

My cover is blown...time to move to Japan’s servers..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

He knows that, haha. I believe he’s just trying to provoke me into getting banned on here again like someone else previously did.

---

I actually don’t know what you are talking about here. What would you be banned for?

I just want to know if you are one of those people who just find someone else's crafting macro and copy it or if you actually know what you are doing when you craft.

So take my challenge and prove it. Prove that you aren’t just rabble rousing and that you ACTUALLY want a challenge.

To reiterate (and since I’m on mobile right now and can’t edit):

No specialist actions (yes whistle is a specialist action, so don’t use it)
No delicate touch
No waste not/want not
No prudent touch
Two star recipe

These are the very moves you think are OP yes? But without them people start losing their cool if they don’t know what they are doing.

See what you have to use if you can’t use these moves. I’ve done it and I guarantee that if you can do this you will see the point I’m trying to make to you.

Whoops, also forgot no ingenuity. I’ll edit that in when I get home.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

No specialist actions (yes whistle is a specialist action, so don’t use it)
No delicate touch
No waste not/want not
No prudent touch
Two star recipe

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

I’ve done it and I guarantee that if you can do this you will see the point I’m trying to make to you.

---

This is an extremely extraordinary claim that will need some evidence to back it up. Post your rotation or the methodology you did this under, post your stats, etc. I can believe that you can easily NQ this, but doing a 0-100 rotation without the RNG reliance on excellent procs? That is a little sketch. The important component of your Infinite Challenge is being able to execute it consistently. I mean, anyone can HQ anything with enough good and excellent procs and if you just NQ the item? Well who cares?

Interesting.

I'm assuming 100% reliability, no Tricks of the Trade reliance, no rng, no HQ materials used and what sort of stats?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Interesting.

I'm assuming 100% reliability, no Tricks of the Trade reliance, no rng, no HQ materials used and what sort of stats?

---

No point in going along with the endeavour, when he asks for non-spec, no Waste-Not, Prudent Touch and Delicate Synthesis, then fair enough, that's doable and frankly easy to do. However, when you say no Ingenuity either, that is not happening by any stretch of the imagination, especially consistently. Ingenuity near enough doubles both the quality, and progress gain, need I say more?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

No point in going along with the endeavour, when he asks for non-spec, no Waste-Not, Prudent Touch and Delicate Synthesis, then fair enough, that's doable and frankly easy to do. However, when you say no Ingenuity either, that is not happening by any stretch of the imagination, especially consistently. Ingenuity near enough doubles both the quality, and progress gain, need I say more?

---

As I said in my previous posts, he knows this. He is trying to make a fool out of me, or, how kids say it these days, “expose” me by making outrageous claims, and then proceeding to challenge me by fulfilling his claims. Really old trick in the book, but I’m not going to entertain it. And on top of that, doesn’t provide a picture of his alleged rotation, which he should have done at the start if he wanted to prove me wrong and impress everyone.

Anyways, any further redundant comments he makes about the situation will just be ignored unless he posts the rotation himself (with stats, food, etc) and proves me wrong. This is supposed to be about FFXIV crafting being too easy since the addition of Prudent Touch, not a “i disagree with you so imma clown you cuhz” session lol

He hasn't mentioned no Prep touch either which is also op. Can't help being curious but likely a false claim.

Not sure what his point is even if it's possible though. "Crafting is fine because it's hard if you severely gimp yourself"? And I'm sure if they made Savage raids 10 times easier tomorrow that'd be fine because you could just equip terrible gear and take your job crystal off.

For the most part, I won't complain if they leave 1-80 one-star untouched (although it's a shame to see multiple crafter sets basically useless from 73-78), but 2 star is just silly now. If you skip Reuse you can craft them in cheap melds, no food or tea, 100% hq. Some items are 150k or below. You make better gil selling leve items and abusing Reuse than by making the "hardest crafts in the game". The only players this pleases are those who dislike crafting and thus can make gil without having to invest in it too much.

Perhaps they can make crafting more engaging by adding subcategories to the craftables. Taking cooking for example, there could be soups (meals in a bowl), drinks (apple juice, coffee, so on) and dishes (meals on a plate). From here the developers can add / modify skills. Observe could be useful for soups as you wait for the liquid to boil and then move on to the next step. Juices could have a "press" step to extract the juice. Whatever route they decide on, I can't imagine things improving without big changes somewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

The only players this pleases are those who dislike crafting and thus can make gil without having to invest in it too much.

---

It's heartwarming to know that at least the majority of the game's player base is enjoying this change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

He hasn't mentioned no Prep touch either which is also op. Can't help being curious but likely a false claim.

Not sure what his point is even if it's possible though. "Crafting is fine because it's hard if you severely gimp yourself"? And I'm sure if they made Savage raids 10 times easier tomorrow that'd be fine because you could just equip terrible gear and take your job crystal off.

For the most part, I won't complain if they leave 1-80 one-star untouched (although it's a shame to see multiple crafter sets basically useless from 73-78), but 2 star is just silly now. If you skip Reuse you can craft them in cheap melds, no food or tea, 100% hq. Some items are 150k or below. You make better gil selling leve items and abusing Reuse than by making the "hardest crafts in the game". The only players this pleases are those who dislike crafting and thus can make gil without having to invest in it too much.

---

Thing is: crafting was always easy. The only "difficulty" part around crafting was over-melding due to the heavy RNG nature. Also, Savage already was "nerfed" at SB and is more accessible than ever. IGets easier over time too thanks to gear progression. People not doing savage is because they don't want to do it.

Anyway, as I pointed it out before, the "I want to be more difficult" is just a way of saying "I want fewer people doing it".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driavna

Thing is: crafting was always easy. The only "difficulty" part around crafting was over-melding due to the heavy RNG nature. Also, Savage already was "nerfed" at SB and is more accessible than ever. IGets easier over time too thanks to gear progression. People not doing savage is because they don't want to do it.

Anyway, as I pointed it out before, the "I want to be more difficult" is just a way of saying "I want fewer people doing it".

---

I could just as easily say: The “I want to be more easy” is just a way of saying “I want crafters that earned their things to be equalized and put to the ground.” Dont be so vindictive, that’s not the case at all.

Simply a new challenge is more than enough to satisfy people like me, and that’s all we really want. And it is an injustice to favor one group of crafters over the other rather than please both at once. I’m sorry, but if someone thinks casual or hardcore players should be favored, rather than both, their mindset is not for equality. It’s selfishness, period.

Also, it’s funny, the very same people who said “crafting has always been easy”, were ironically the very same ones who did not craft or refused to craft in 2.0 - 3.5 because it was “too hard.” I really think the “anti-challenge” agenda needs to end.

So, again, what are you asking be done? How, specifically, does SE "please both at once"? Hand-waving and "I wish" won't cut it here. The developers can't read you mind any more than I can.

Also, more importantly, would solving this problem the way you wish it to be solved be ok if you couldn't put up the end result for sale on the Market Board?

(I've already read the post where putting hard-to-craft items on the Market Board was, somehow, a point of recognition -- that would be a gil-oriented recognition, I assume.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

So, again, what are you asking be done? How, specifically, does SE "please both at once"? Hand-waving and "I wish" won't cut it here. The developers can't read you mind any more than I can.

Also, more importantly, would solving this problem the way you wish it to be solved be ok if you couldn't put up the end result for sale on the Market Board?

(I've already read the post where putting hard-to-craft items on the Market Board was, somehow, a point of recognition -- that would be a gil-oriented recognition, I assume.)

---

Generally speaking, glamour related stuff is the simplest solution. Glamour's always wanted and has no mechanical impact on the game. This specific "high end" glamour recipes could also work similar to the collectible system (Which is largely a way for the game to remove excess resources). Make a hard item, finish the item as a 'master craft' to get a specific item instead of the crafted item. (Turning a 2 star item into a 'Twostar', proportional to the original recipes materials).

These Twostars are then used, in varying amounts, to craft both untradeable glamours (Shiny Crafter suits) and some tradeables (Shiny other suits).

Crafting the new shiney stuff could impose multiple modifiers to make the craft itself harder, and HQ'ing the item creates the shiny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

As I said in my previous posts, he knows this. He is trying to make a fool out of me, or, how kids say it these days, “expose” me by making outrageous claims, and then proceeding to challenge me by fulfilling his claims. Really old trick in the book, but I’m not going to entertain it. And on top of that, doesn’t provide a picture of his alleged rotation, which he should have done at the start if he wanted to prove me wrong and impress everyone.

Anyways, any further redundant comments he makes about the situation will just be ignored unless he posts the rotation himself (with stats, food, etc) and proves me wrong. This is supposed to be about FFXIV crafting being too easy since the addition of Prudent Touch, not a “i disagree with you so imma clown you cuhz” session lol

---

I’m not going to post the rotation because then you’re just going to follow it.

My point is that I think you actually like easy crafting even though you don’t admit it. I think if crafting were actually hard you would be complaining. You certainly don’t want to try my challenge for whatever reason. If you did actually try to do the challenge you would learn something about some of those points you keep blowing off that a dozens of people have been telling you.

Myself, I like the easy crafting. It feels like a reward for me after grinding the crafting classes. It also feels like a reward after painstakingly figuring out rotations on my own without looking at what other people do.

Since you won’t take the challenge, the only thing I can do is ask you outright.

Did you follow someone else’s rotation for crafts so you could be a “competitive lv 80 crafter?”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

I’m not going to post the rotation because then you’re just going to follow it.

My point is that I think you actually like easy crafting even though you don’t admit it. I think if crafting were actually hard you would be complaining. You certainly don’t want to try my challenge for whatever reason. If you did actually try to do the challenge you would learn something about some of those points you keep blowing off that a dozens of people have been telling you.

Myself, I like the easy crafting. It feels like a reward for me after grinding the crafting classes. It also feels like a reward after painstakingly figuring out rotations on my own without looking at what other people do.

Since you won’t take the challenge, the only thing I can do is ask you outright.

Did you follow someone else’s rotation for crafts so you could be a “competitive lv 80 crafter?”

---

1. You need to read my posts again. You clearly did not since you are making outrageous claims about someone who advocates equality for both audiences.

2. All you are doing is making yourself look like the provocateur, randomly challenging someone then not even posting proof that what you have in mind even works.

3. During 2.0 I had help. 3.0 - now, it was all me working on my own rotations because I didn’t really trust people.

4. Since you are repeatedly bringing up this redundant fiasco, I must ask you outright. Are you actually trying to join the discussion, or are you just trying to start problems? Put your money where your mouth is and post your alleged rotation with food, stats, etc. Then, offer me another challenge. I’d be glad to do it once I see the validity of your claim. Otherwise, you come off as confrontational and you clearly have no intention of discussing this, just trying to start stuff.

If you keep bringing this up without posting your magical rotation, I’m just going to ignore it. I support balanced crafting, not easy crafting.

The rotation doesn't matter anyway. No matter how hard the rotation is, it's a problem with a static and attainable solution, so if you throw a massive number of people at it, it will be found and disseminated in pretty short order. The internet is basically made for doing exactly that. Even if you personally gimp yourself, it doesn't even begin to address the actual problems that "easy" crafting creates, which is that it undermines the actual value of crafting. Since he plainly doesn't understand that, it's not really worth talking to him. Whatever his actual intent, he's simply going to waste your time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PlsNoBully

It's heartwarming to know that at least the majority of the game's player base is enjoying this change.

---

Are they?

Are they having lots of fun buying leve kits to skip to 80 on a class they hate, equipping cheap gear and popping a macro they copy-pasted and have no clue how it works, so they can churn out worthless gear over and over to stuff on the mb for pennies and compete with the thousands of others doing the same thing? Because people have a strange idea of fun if that's the case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driavna

Anyway, as I pointed it out before, the "I want to be more difficult" is just a way of saying "I want fewer people doing it".

---

People don't ask for difficult content to exclude others. They'd be happy seeing lots of others trying that difficult content with them. They just want something engaging.

It's like those "you just want the market to yourself so you can charge high prices" comments. I personally couldn't care less how many are on the market or which market. I'm not fussed. I'm making more gil than ever from Reuse while the new generation of endgame crafters are trying to squeeze next to nothing from Facet gear.

Easy endgame crafting hurts the casual crafter more than the big rich crafters everyone seems to dislike. Everything is worthless unless you have good market knowledge. Heck, you could sell white Gazelle and Twinsilk sets in SB for more than Facet is worth now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

I’m not going to post the rotation because then you’re just going to follow it.

---

Why not? You "won", we couldn't do it. Post your magic macro to prove it and seal that victory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Are they?

Are they having lots of fun buying leve kits to skip to 80 on a class they hate, equipping cheap gear and popping a macro they copy-pasted and have no clue how it works, so they can churn out worthless gear over and over to stuff on the mb for pennies and compete with the thousands of others doing the same thing? Because people have a strange idea of fun if that's the case.

---

An overwhelming majority of my friends who craft casually are happy over the current state of crafting strictly because it makes the end goal of being self-sufficient entirely within a reasonable and cheap grasp. These types of people aren't competing with you on the market in the literal sense, your regular consumer base (them) are just no longer needing your services because they can make their own gear, make their own consumables, make their own glam, etc. and if they need money, they can very easily obtain it with the same degree of success as any other equally resourced player. These are not the type of people that you will ever see on the market board if they can help it and play with the same self-sufficiency as most JP players do.

There is nothing wrong with casual players being able to easily access these types of things, be self-sufficient and is a logical consequence of communities simply sharing information to the general public. The issue, at least as far as I can tell OP believes there is, is that there is no greater reward for going the extra mile with crafting and instead simply electing to go for the cheapest, laziest set up that achieves a 0-100 rotation on 70 durability crafts is more fiscally efficient for an average joe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driavna

Thing is: crafting was always easy. The only "difficulty" part around crafting was over-melding due to the heavy RNG nature. Also, Savage already was "nerfed" at SB and is more accessible than ever. IGets easier over time too thanks to gear progression. People not doing savage is because they don't want to do it.

Anyway, as I pointed it out before, the "I want to be more difficult" is just a way of saying "I want fewer people doing it".

---

This is a great summary of how the game has always been. Most MMO players have a lot of nostalgia around their initial experience.

Modern MMOs try and level the playing field as much as possible upon a new expansion release in order to attract and retain new players. The veteran players have experience (the biggest factor re this topic of feeling bored/not challenged) and a slight ('big' in the case of pentamelded crafters/gatherers) advantage gear-wise.

Once you have a proper melded set, crafting is and has always been only gated by your time and resourcefulness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

I absolutely disagree with that. That is not true, whatsoever. As someone who has crafted during those patches, using macros for end game crafts will almost guarantee that you NQ it. You had to manual craft it, and think carefully about the choices you make.

With prudent Touch and 5.0 actions, it makes it to where you don’t need to manually think about anything.

---

This has likely already been said, but I'm fairly sure I still have screenshots of my level 50 macros for crafting back in ARR, when I was sharing them with my FC people.

Sure, they required all crafters at 50, some required pentamelded sets, and some of them required HQ materials to get that initial boost, but I've had macros for crafting at every step of the game since well before HW arrived.

So... sorry, but you're absolutely wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blokeymon

This has likely already been said, but I'm fairly sure I still have screenshots of my level 50 macros for crafting back in ARR, when I was sharing them with my FC people.

Sure, they required all crafters at 50, some required pentamelded sets, and some of them required HQ materials to get that initial boost, but I've had macros for crafting at every step of the game since well before HW arrived.

So... sorry, but you're absolutely wrong.

---

I misunderstood what was being said then. Yes, technically, you could macro many crafts. But when it came to optimal rotations that had a lower chance of HQ’ing, macro’ing things was absolutely not a good idea. Was better (and faster) to just do it manually. I am applying this to only end game crafts back in 3.x. Sorry about that.

Now, if someone is trying to argue to me that back in 3.x, doing rotations manually on end game crafts was worse than doing it through a macro, that is just wrong. But now in 4.0 - 5.0, its optimal to just do it as a macro. It HQs 100% either way. Back then, macros yielded a higher chance of NQ’ing because most people did not utilize tricks of the trade.

Rath's Rotation with all those stacks of flawless synth and then hoping hasty touch didn't fail.... yeah those were fun times. lets not ever go back to that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Are they?

People don't ask for difficult content to exclude others. They'd be happy seeing lots of others trying that difficult content with them. They just want something engaging.

Why not? You "won", we couldn't do it. Post your magic macro to prove it and seal that victory.

---

1. Yes. Because leveling crafters sucks once the novelty of the shallow craft system wears off.

2. The only generalization that can be made is 'people ask for harder crafting'. People have certainly asked for it with exclusion being the motivation.

3. He literally just used HQ materials, guys. This isn't difficult. It wasn't a restriction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

1. Yes. Because leveling crafters sucks once the novelty of the shallow craft system wears off.

2. The only generalization that can be made is 'people ask for harder crafting'. People have certainly asked for it with exclusion being the motivation.

3. He literally just used HQ materials, guys. This isn't difficult. It wasn't a restriction.

---

In your opinion, why do you believe easy crafting should stay?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

In your opinion, why do you believe easy crafting should stay?

---

So, you are not really looking for harder content, just a way to make more difficult for everyone else?

That is the implication of your question.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

In your opinion, why do you believe easy crafting should stay?

---

In my opinion, it was never difficult to begin with. Much of the difficulty before is better described as tedium or gate keeping.

The novelty of the craft system wore out quite quickly for me, suffice to say I've played other games with far more engaging craft systems and economies. FF14 will forever just be WoW with extra steps.

As for why it should stay - I got to be there at 2.0 as a battleclass only. The strangehold crafting had on the market at the time was something that took them until the second half of Heavensward to really tune, between better system gil generation, and more equitable Combat <-> Crafter interaction.

I'm not even sure if right now we aren't in a stable situation due to the mass availability of raw materials. If there's an abundance of crafter bots as Kage says, there has to be at least as many if not more gatherer bots fueling the game right now. Take them out of the equation and I wonder how things would shake out.

Make specialists important, people can choose only 1 profession(crafter or gatherer) to be specialized in, 30% of the every tier of recipes are only craft-able by specialists (tier = 1*2*3*4*) reliably with a discount on the "difficulty" of quality (less hq mats needed to hq),5* recipes only craftable by specialist, no matter the level, also for 5* recipes the skills cost scales, so "out-leveling" them is not an option. "op" skills should be on a "limited" use per each craft, equipment requirements should get a bit higher thanks to accessibility of materia nowadays, make hq materials important for 100% hq. Since gatherers will also have specialization, only specialists can gather "folklore" nodes for their field of expertise.


PS: master books and new recipes which get released should always have a mix of 0-5 stars. This way "casual" crafters also always have new things they are able to craft whenever a new recipe gets introduced.

All this may be somewhat excluding people of the highest tier (5 stars) of crafts, but only if they choose not to invest resources/time into becoming a 5* crafter themselves.

Raiders are rewarded with challanging content and the highest tier of gear available for every currently highest tier of gear. PvP'ers have their own exclusive rewards for those reaching the required ratings and the mode it self has its own challenging aspects and fun to it. Gatherers would have their own special mats to gather (if they choose to specialize in this field) and will be able to sell it lucratively. Crafters their own stuff only they can craft and sell with its own difficulty.

Similar to RL, you can have many skills, but only a very few in which you can excel. In video games, excellency is often tied or shown in a time investment and/or resource investment (gear/melds etc).

So yes, people not prioritizing something, not having the time to invest for it, should not excel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maneesha

Make specialists important, people can choose only 1 profession
...
Similar to RL, you can have many skills, but only a very few in which you can excel. In video games, excellency is often tied or shown in a time investment and/or resource investment (gear/melds etc).

So yes, people not prioritizing something, not having the time to invest for it, should not excel.

---

As long as you can't sell the results for millions of gil, I'd agree to this.

However, I'm afraid you used the word 'lucratively' once too often in your descriptions. Raider and PvP player rewards are not 'lucrative', they're personal. Why should crafting and gathering be any different?

For PvP i agree with you, there isn't anything "lucrative" and only a "posing" thing, idk, does selling/pushing someone for rating exist in this game, i never heard of it, but i know of other games where this is a thing, maybe its not a thing here because in general the pvp isn't very popular among the community of this game. Raiding can be lucrative, lots of ppl try to sell kills for people,idk how well this is going and how the market there is, but still its an option, another thing are also the Orchestrion Scrolls, sure they are rare and rng based, but usually cost a few million, other then that, yes the gear cant be sold and its personal, but that is its own reward (and an important one for a lot of raiders).

I would welcome more rare materials from raid bosses, similar to extreme. Which can be used to craft gear/weapons/furniture and glamour, even if they restrict them to only being available from savage/ultimate modes. Then people who only raid can have another source of income and the player-base as a whole more options for glamour or maybe some "BiS" options in regards to equipment.

And yes i don't have an issue in buying this stuff of the MB.

I think it will enrich the games depth and economy if more stuff was to drop from raids, which can be sold to crafters and people who have no access to the content or can't complete it, also if pvp players did receive some form of materials they can earn through wolf marks or other means tied to pvp, but i am not the one who decided things should be this way, but since you ask i give you my opinion.

Besides, crafting and gathering was always tied up to the economy and is one of the primary means to earn ingame currency in most if not every game. The devs always increase means through which people who don't craft or gather can earn ingame currency and i welcome that because it offers everyone a possibility that doesn't force them to do something they don't like.
The only thing i dislike is things being made easier for the sake of accessibility to try and entice players to do something, which they might not be interested in in the first place and in the process disregard the people who are already interested,invested and like the existing "difficulty" of said activity or the activity it self. If you like crafting, you will craft, if you like raiding, you will raid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

So, you are not really looking for harder content, just a way to make more difficult for everyone else?

That is the implication of your question.

---

Um, are you serious right now? I literally only asked her a question, I meant nothing bad by it, and she actually makes very good points in her posts unlike your post. Please take your obvious disdain towards hardcore and/or hard working crafters somewhere else and have an actual discussion, Kay?

The fact is that as long as a rotation can achieve 100% consistency, crafting will always be easy. The problem with NOT having 100% consistency is that then crafting becomes frustrating (RNG crafting).

Take my challenge for instance, that the OP refused to do or even consider. Without the use of those skills that were listed, crafting moves strongly from the 100% consistency rotation to a VERY STRONG rng crafting game where you are fighting for every last bit of quality you can squeeze out of your remaining abilities and then praying to RNJesus that you're lucky enough to get HQ. You start to utilize and lean heavily into abilities like the following:

Intensive Synthesis
Efficiency: 300%
Success Rate: 80%
Available only when material condition is Good or Excellent.

Precise Touch
Additional Effect: Increases Inner Quiet stack by one (up to 11)
Efficiency: 100%
Success Rate: 70%
Available only when material condition is Good or Excellent.

Patient Tough
Increases Inner Quiet stack by one (up to 11) when successful, halves stack upon failure
Efficiency: 100%
Success Rate: 50%

(and other skills and tricks to of course but, these I want to focus on)

This turns into crafting into a very "difficult" PROC BASED GAME. Where you are making small decisions on what to do if you get a good or excellent proc and are in fact reliant on those procs.

Now some people who responded to my challenge picked up on something else as well, like when Kaurhz stated that my challenge probably couldn't be done consistently if it could be done at all, especially without ingenuity. And he was right on the money. I can tell he knows his stuff. This challenge IS inconsistent and is completely based on rng condition procs (although, and obviously, you could adjust the "difficulty" by adding in more and more HQ mats so that rng becomes very light at max HQ mats used).

You want my rotation? I can't give it to you! It's based on condition procs! It can't be macro'd! I'll admit this is an extreme example but, isn't this one of the possible suggestions for making crafting a more brainy game than what it is now? Why didn't you see this OP? The funny thing is that my challenge (though extreme) put forth a few of the ideas that would actually make crafting difficult as suggested inside of this thread, and according to your original post, rewarding.

Though I like easy crafting, I'm actually all for this kind of system (though DEFINITELY minus the RNG from what this challenge provides) as it would be more brainy than grindy (the time grind is the only challenge crafting has right now, but that really falls in line with MMO expectations tbh). And the kind of system more specifically I would like to see are are combination of what others have already posted in this thread:

1. A proc based system where I have to make a decision about which ability to use at a certain junctures.
2. JowyAtreides suggested a system that took away a skill or two each time from your choices. I think that's great cuz it makes you think about how you can get the same result but a different way than what you normal do.

And both of these things would make crafting unmacroable.

Now I've got one more thing to say and then I've decided to not post in this thread again because I literally can't stand reading through it again or stand to hear any more hyperbolic language stemming from peoples opinions.

Wanted to shout out some people in the thread that I felt made a lot of sense and could relate to. Just wanted to give them support cuz sometimes when you are having a discussion with someone who is just totally unreasonable it can be a bit disheartening. Shout out to Kabooa, Granyala, DrWho2010, and what the heck, Liam_Harper you were making sense too. Others made sense to me as well, but my brain is dead and I need sleep and I can't shout everyone out. Goodnight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PlsNoBully

An overwhelming majority of my friends who craft casually are happy over the current state of crafting strictly because it makes the end goal of being self-sufficient entirely within a reasonable and cheap grasp.

---

A fair point. Self sufficiency is a part of crafting I enjoy myself. However I'd still argue there's a point where endgame can become too easy. Currently Facet gear is hardly worth crafting, you're better off selling things in other markets or doing Maps, or Hunt Trains for materia to sell and buying a set. You'd profit compared to the time you sink into leveling, gearing, melding, using mats and crafting it. It also makes EX and Eden normal redundant since anyone can farm a few mil and buy a full 450 set and overmeld with a grade 6 and 5's and suddenly they have a better full set in a day or two.

If you do like crafting your own set just to have done it yourself, you're done on day one and have nothing else to do with crafting for 3 months.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

In your opinion, why do you believe easy crafting should stay?

---

I agree, from a discussion point I'm curious on the views on this too.

As for Mogbert, an rng rotation. That makes sense. It definitely isn't possible as a 100% macro.
You know what, heck I wouldn't mind a few serious rng crafts. I don't mean everything, but for example glowing glamour crafts or a slightly stronger battle set that are only possibly by making real use of Tricks, Precise, Intensive, Patience and even all the other tools we have now. Bring it on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Um, are you serious right now? I literally only asked her a question, I meant nothing bad by it, and she actually makes very good points in her posts unlike your post. Please take your obvious disdain towards hardcore and/or hard working crafters somewhere else and have an actual discussion, Kay?

---

"In your opinion, why do you believe easy crafting should stay?"

OK, turn it around then. In your opinion why do you believe easy [easier] crafting should not stay? Your original premise, and the title for this whole thread, has been "think about casual AND hardcore crafters", although your arguments have been only about how to make it more difficult for casual crafters.