As a tank main, I encourage ppl to help the tank pull if they're going unreasonably slow. They need to be made aware of what's expected from them and pull accordingly (aka wall to wall). And if they're uncomfortable playing their role effectively (and valuing the time of their own and party members time), then perhaps they should roll a DPS. There's really nothing more aggravating than a tank that pulls one pack at a time. Personally, I think its disrespectful.
The 'unwritten rule' for non-tank pulls in dungeons
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06-09-2019, 07:29 AMSanctify
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06-09-2019, 07:35 AMHash_BrownsIf the tank gets kicked, me & the dps continue the dungeon until we get a new oneQuote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
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06-09-2019, 07:38 AMNedkelYour team would have to do three times as more damage than tank+healer+2dps team, why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
Because the second team could pull three trash groups at time, while 3 dps 1 healer will struggle to go through the first group, healer will have to burn all the mana each pull and it will just not work unless you out lvl the duty horribly by 100 ilvl or so. -
06-09-2019, 07:41 AMHash_BrownsThe part in bold said "single pulls" so saying they could pull "three trash groups" doesn't really apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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06-09-2019, 07:44 AMAwhaI was mainly talking about a tank doing single pulls, would a normal group of three dps and one healer really be that much slower then a single pull tank and 2 dps 1 healer? Granted I rarely ever queue alone so my experience is rather skewed from the norm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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06-09-2019, 07:44 AMSoulEchelonAnd if you don't get a new one by the time you get to a boss? Not only that, you just added yet more time to the dungeon, as you're now forced to do even smaller pulls and have even less dps going into each battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
Kicking anyone just for not being up to your standards in speed, tank or not, is detrimental. Now if they're being blatantly bad and refusing to do mechanics, that I can agree with. But kicking shouldn't be a kneejerk thing. It should be the final resort. I never kick unless someone is being specifically interruptive, are afking, or have d/ced for a little too long. -
06-09-2019, 07:45 AMMrKusakabe
I will replace the nutshell of this topic with a different, yet similar situation that happened last time:
My White Mage in Sohm Al is struggling and I supported him as Red Mage. So once in a while I casted Vercure to get our health above the 30% mark - this was the average health during the dungeon whenever I looked at the party member's health bars. The healer, a Lalafell, was clearly not able for some reason to keep us in good shape, neither was the tank as I also pulled aggro several times by going into melee. So I just stopped attacking, backed off and attacked the only enemy that was not orange in the emnity list and assisted the dedicated healer with these Vercures. But I never even remotely thought of any ways of "punishing" these players by acting irritating myself when it's clear they are struggling.
Is there an unwritten rule that says "Let my mates die despite I have the tools on my fingertips to prevent that?"
Sorry, but if you are a tank and you go like "You tank it, you die" then you should stop playing in groups in general.
What kind of attitude is that? Not playing your role is griefing (at least to GM Karrsul!), so you are also pretty much in trouble if you refuse to heal as healer or to take aggro as tank.
And please don't come around the corner with the infamous "I run into everytihng on purpose" players as these are absolutely rare. The majority are Black Mages with a flare too early or a bard using all of his stuff in quick succession etc.
Once I had a healer that would stop to heal me and my cousin for no apparent reason, probably with the same, weird "unwritten rule" attitude we might have broken in this guy's eyes. We did nothing wrong and our health refreshed inbetween the pulls, but it was just weird to see in action what happens when people take this nonsense too far. One time I, as Red Mage again, kept healing one poor soul as the healer showed the same disgusting attitude of "You spank, you tank" - the poor bard was running in circles while the other (cough)holes watched. That made me mad and kinda sad... Healer and tank watching and I try to assist fight and healing until my mana reached critical levels. Are we a team or what?
So, no, there are no unwritten rules. Just courtesy and common sense. Use it. You won't teach someone a lesson by letting him die on purpose. Be a real, honorable tank and help this guy out. For everything else is the votekick feature.
Sincerely,
https://imgur.com/kXOfaq9.png -
06-09-2019, 07:48 AMMavriasthe thread's about pulling in dungeons. also ive tanked shinryu normal as a samurai. so that point is also moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazzel120
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06-09-2019, 07:53 AMAwhaCannot speak for others but for me is not so much about speed but the enjoyment. I simply do not have fun healing or tanking single pulls. If the run takes longer but I am having fun being a dps tank or healing a dps then for me it was a net positive. Granted I rarely ever queue without friends so my experience differs from the norm. In cases as you mentioned I would simply try with the group to kill the boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
That is why I mentioned one could argue that 3 dps 1 healer probably is not that much slower or slower then a single pull tank 2 dps 1 healer group. Though admittedly my experience might differ since speed is not the primary reason why I like large pulls though it is a bonus. -
06-09-2019, 08:08 AMSoulEchelonI can agree with everything you said. We're supposed to work together, not be at each other's throats.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrKusakabe
I will say though that, while it IS rare, there have been people running in front of me as a tank and pulling things before I could. I spoke of it in an earlier post. But again you are right - it's a rarity. -
06-09-2019, 08:10 AMHash_BrownsOnce again. If I don't get a new tank, we pull the boss, and I heal during the boss. At least this way I feel like an actual healer instead of a green DPS who uses cooldowns every 30-60 seconds & regen.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
It's not about tank making the dungeon take less time. It's about knowing you class & not wanting to deal with lazy people.
I ain't here to carry a tank that wants to watch netflix while they tank.
If you are in +50 content, and it isn't your first time in the dungeon, you shouldn't have trouble with your class. -
06-09-2019, 08:13 AMYllania
Just because a tank is taking a little more time than you do doesn't mean they are watching netflix no matter how much you want to project that on them.
Throwing a tantrum and kicking someone just because they dont play the exact way you want to is also really dumb if youre PUGing then deal with people being different they are not bots. -
06-09-2019, 08:16 AMvan_arnIf they're bad enough to get voted off the island, it doesn't matter why they're bad. They get voted off the island.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yllania
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06-09-2019, 08:21 AMHash_BrownsIf you get kicked, it isn't just me who wants you gone for bad play. It's at least half the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yllania
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06-09-2019, 08:27 AMShurrikhanThe only real unwritten rule is "fast is good". I'll sometimes even mark targets in further packs for my Bard/MCH to pull so that they're drawn into the same AoE as I pass by where they would otherwise require me to cross about and spend time being melee'd while getting minimal threat before the next gather. As long as dps isn't being an idiot about it, there's nothing wrong with a dps pulling for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre
That said, this was a lot more common with the prevalence of things like Bishop Auto-turret, Flaming Arrow, and Shadowflare forcing the tank to sit in place for a bit. With each of their removals, reasons to dps pull have become more and more obscure, and as a tank I've gotten less benefit out of my ranged accordingly.
As for "pulling" in the sense of ripping threat? If the tank is tracking your Diversion and/or Lucid Dreaming (or Refresh/Tactician) and isn't going to give another situation in which you'd need it per their CDs... that's on you. Use your shit or, failing that, bring what you rip (from refusing to AoE or spread threat more evenly in large pulls) to the tank's AoE. If they're a PLD, be in Cover range while finally shooting something else so they don't have to swap back to tank stance just to deal with you. -
06-09-2019, 08:27 AMAwhaA single person is not enough to remove someone, it requires two out of three remaining people to remove someone. By no means is anyone obligated to adjust to a single players desired play style, but if the group wants to do things a certain way have three choices adapt, try to remove the person unwilling to adjust or leave if it turns out your play style does not mess with your groups. Being removed is rarely personal or at the very least one should not assume removal is personal just view it as difference of play style and move on to the next group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yllania
While it is nice to help a newer it does not mean people are obligated to help or go at their pace. Granted people rarely remove someone for being new, but even if it were to happen i do not feel the group would be in the wrong to do so. As people have said it is a group effort, if your group has certain expectations and they have the majority they are free to remove any player due to difference of play style, and that should not be taken personally. -
06-09-2019, 08:30 AMvan_arnThe heck are you talking about. A ton of healers LIVE for healtanking because it's probably the most fun thing possible in normal modes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
Getting rid of the tank actually improves the gameplay experience for those remaining. It actually makes the encounters fresh again, and I've noticed bards in particular jump at the chance to kite mobs around. As soon as that tank gets kicked all three people in the party want to show just how useless that tank was by outdoing them.
It doesn't matter if a replacement tank never shows up again. It's more fun without one. Heck, it's better if the replacement tank shows up while the gate is up so they have to watch the samurai eat a buster and survive.
Yes, it's less "efficient" but if you're in a situation where you're kicking a tank for being slow you're not going to be speedrunning the dungeon with or without the tank. Might as well convert what could have been a speedrun (but with an uncooperative tank) into a novelty run.
At least you don't have to suffer the tank's ego. -
06-09-2019, 08:31 AMSoulEchelonBut you CAN have trouble with mechanics if you're new to the dungeon. It's not that hard to comprehend. We were all new to these things once. Stop being holier than thou and realize this. This goes double when you're doing public roulettes - especially the leveling ones. You're going to be put with new people, and they might not know how things work. As a healer you of all people should be trying to HELP them, not hurt them. And where in any of my posts did I say you should carry a blatantly afking tank? Did I say anything about "netflix" in any of my posts in this whole entire forum? I swear, for a healer your mentality is not very helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
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06-09-2019, 08:32 AMkazzel120And its now slower without the tank because now you have to heal spam a squishy target sounds like its better then sucking it up i guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
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06-09-2019, 08:35 AMSoulEchelon*Efficient, but good to know that if I ever see your name, the tank is going to be kicked the second they make a mistake because you'd rather have "fun" then let them have theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by van_arn
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06-09-2019, 08:37 AMvan_arnAs long as they don't mind being rescued into groups of mobs if they start to lag behind, they're safe. I'll even keep an exceptionally bad tank around if the tank acts like a whole new world is opening to them; some tanks don't even consider it might be possible for the healer to offtank until they see an obstinate one push them to see it firsthand.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
Was so happy to see rescue is coming back in 5.0. -
06-09-2019, 08:42 AMvan_arnIt is better, because healtanking is a heck of a lot more fun than a tank terrified of his own shadow. Especially in later levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazzel120
For everyone but the tank, of course, but the tank got kicked so they don't matter until they can come back with aoe. -
06-09-2019, 08:44 AMHash_BrownsI made it clear very early in the thread, although I haven't touched up on it since - small pulls are acceptable for new players, low level content, or content that the tank is new too.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
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06-09-2019, 08:45 AMSoulEchelonYeah you're definitely not a team player, and I'm done with this conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by van_arn
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06-09-2019, 08:48 AMvan_arnI'm very much a team player, since I can't kick without my team. And my teams understand exactly what I'm doing, why it works, and enjoy the novelty of fighting a tank's ego by styling on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
That's why it's so easy to kick a tank once they start to balk. -
06-09-2019, 08:51 AMHash_BrownsIMO, seems like what you think is that the tank = team leader, which is not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
There is no I in tank, or team... -
06-09-2019, 08:55 AMFynlarQuote:
You won't teach someone a lesson by letting him die on purpose.
You sure as hell won't teach him a lesson by bailing him out every time he (intentionally) pulls for you, thereby letting him know it's perfectly okay to do it. -
06-09-2019, 09:01 AMvan_arnThat's a dangerous game, because if you just watch while three other people kill the adds -- and they survive without you -- you've just confirmed to three separate people that you aren't really needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Fertile soil for two of the three to realize you're useless, and then kick.
Granted it works the other way too-- if someone dies, then you have a better chance of kicking the puller. But we're talking about normal modes here; not too hard to keep people up.
Not to mention it's a lot more appealing for a DPS player to kick the tank than to kick the healer, if it comes down to that. -
06-09-2019, 09:12 AMSoulEchelonIMO, seems like you like to assume things. The tank is supposed to lead the dungeon, yes. But it's a group effort. No one is the actual leader. The tank goes first because they're supposed to aggro everything. Stop putting words into my mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
Edit: You know what? I take that back. The tank IS the leader. They go in first. They initiate battle first. They dictate the run's flow. But that doesn't make them any more or less important than everyone else. And saying "there's no I in team" makes absolutely zero sense in anything that has been stated by me in this thread. All this time I've been advocating TEAM effort. TEAMwork. At this point you're just cobbling up buzzwords. A team leader works with the team. It is not all on their shoulders. -
06-09-2019, 09:16 AMAwhaMaybe I simply do not know the meaning of being a team player but to me being a team player is working with the overall group. Just because someone is new that does not give them a free pass, if the group simply does not want to deal with a new player they are free to try and remove said player. Sure it is a dick move, but no one is obligated to teach or hold anothers hand through content.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
I think they are being a team player, expecting certain concessions to be made because they are new to me is not being a team player. While I have not been forcibly kicked as a tank for being new I have been asked by a group if it would be okay if they removed me since they saw I was not very comfortable with larger pulls when I started. I simply left and apologized for holding them back. Willfully holding a group of strangers back either because one does not feel comfortable or lacks the experience since like a messed up thing to do. In my eyes that is. -
06-09-2019, 09:22 AMSoulEchelonRescuing a struggling team member no matter who they are into a mob of enemies is trolling and not being a team player. End of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
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06-09-2019, 09:40 AMHash_BrownsNever put words into your mouth, said "it seems like what you think," which you then confirmed in your edit. You're taking this thread too personally. Honestly, you have come off as unnecessarily hostile through out the entire thread, and at points just down right insulting - all over the fact that I think a person who doesn't know the role they queued for should be removed from the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
This discussion is going to go around in circles because you personally seem to see the tank and the end-all-be-all of the party.
They aren't & if more then 1 person has a problem with how the tank is tanking, then showing them the door is a fine option. -
06-09-2019, 09:46 AMShurrikhanTo be fair, it was actually more efficient in certain dungeons back in ARR, where the mob packs could be perma-kited and the bosses hit like noodles. With a WHM, it was every bit as efficient, also, to just three-DPS-tank from the start, since Cure III and HoTs could be thus abused.Quote:
Originally Posted by van_arn
Even through Heavensward, though, I could "tank" (keeping threat off of casters and keeping specials out of where they'd force enemies to move) just fine on a Melee or Ranged whenever a tank decided to just up and leave. Have yet to try it except while a tank was simply afk in Stormblood, but that worked fine for many a mob pack and for a couple bosses. -
06-09-2019, 09:49 AMSoulEchelonAnd there ya go. You just did it. Again. This is why I'm taking it personally. You're putting words in my mouth and ignoring everything I've stated throughout this whole thread about how everyone is important and teamwork is needed. You're living in your own world, and only seeing words you want to see that pushes your narrative. I am officially done with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
Also I'm starting to realize I'm being dogpiled by three people who seem to absolutely hate the tank role. Here's the thing: I main DPS. In fact, I main Dragoon. The happiest I am is when I'm with a fast tank that knows what they're doing. But unlike you all, I'm not going to force them into a situation they aren't ready for, and I'm not going to kick them for being unfamiliar with mechanics or being slower than I want them to be. Recently I've been tanking alot more due to the DK tank mounts, and I've found a whole new appreciation for them. I started out scared shitless because I was constantly worried I was doing something wrong. And I had beligerent people like you force me into unfamiliar situations and get mad when I made a mistake because of it. I almost completely quit tanking until a healer gave me a pep talk and helped me through a dungeon I wasn't used to. The DPSes were also happy to help. They gave me the confidence I needed to push past my wariness and become better.
Now I'm one of the much faster tanks. I know my limits, can grab every mob until a stopping point in every endgame dungeon, can stance dance easily during boss battles, and can keep aggro without problem. I know what to look for, know how to keep my team alive, and I don't bash anyone for making a mistake. If someone's having trouble, I HELP THEM. I show them how to do it. I WORK WITH THEM. I don't call them names. I don't force them into bad situations. I don't bitch and moan and kick them for not playing how I want them to play. But I gotta say, if I had any of you in my team, and any of you acted like how you're acting here on these forums, I'd votekick you immediately - healer or not.
I'm out. Just know your mentalities are the main reason why we don't have many tanks in the first place. Bullying them, forcing them to play your way when they're having trouble, ridiculing them and branding them "Bad" because they're slower than your ideals, literally trolling them as they're trying to do their job...Nah. I hope to never see any of you in any of my parties. -
06-09-2019, 09:49 AMAwhaRescuing a struggling team member can also be seen as a means of encouraging the person that is lagging behind. It is all about how you choose to interpret the action. For you it may be trolling, for me I view it has the healer is telling me they have my back and go ham.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
The reality is the tank has kept their gear up to date, and the group knows what their are doing then at that point it is just a matter of trusting your group. Sure people can use rescue to troll, but the action of pulling the player itself is not trolling, intent behind why their were pulled should be considered. -
06-09-2019, 09:52 AMvan_arnPfft, it's a great way to bring awareness to the sprint button and the single button tanks need to grab threat once they're in position. Not to mention it can get tanks to ask themselves if the healer isn't afraid of getting aggro, then why is the tank afraid of their shadow?Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulEchelon
Now, if you're pulling a black mage into an aoe that's a nasty. But pulling a non-sprinting tank into a multipull when they can clearly handle it isn't, and is one of the best ways to break their tunnelvision and teach them the pulls. -
06-09-2019, 09:54 AMkazzel120Oh but the tank wasnt doing big pulls and now you have to do smaller pulls sounds like you just want to bitch just to bitch tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by van_arn
Also if i ever had you in any group you best keep up with me and my 1 button press because you know thats all tanks do is hit the tank button and the rest happens lol. -
06-09-2019, 10:00 AMMiracle_Diva
Yet I understand that it's better for a tank to pull, cuz it's going to be simply easier for everyone, some people's attitude here is quite funny.
*Aw you pull I will let you die* - not gonna teach the puller anything, and if they are not alone, you can easily be removed from group simply cuz you didn't do you job at any time, especially before the last boss (that's not gonna feel good). If the group decides you should pull more, you should. If someone's struggling, yes, it's ok to take it slow.
I play a lot of healer lately and I've met different tanks. I get that some people don't learn fast, they need their time, but if you don't start learning now, then when? When you get to lvl 70 content and say you're new? Yes, you've never cleared this dungeon, but you know what a mob looks like and that you need to fight them and you have your defensive skills which for some reasons some tanks are afraid or too shy to use. The tank should know how to play his class by that time. If you're new to anything and don't know something, feel free to say that in chat and ask questions - maybe you have an experienced tank\dps\healer playing another role. How often does this happen? People just stay silent most of the time, then get surprised that group decided they will be better off without you.
No one is the leader in a group of randoms. The Entire group decides how big pulls should be.
Sooooo many problems could be solved so easily if people would just TALK instead of showing off their ass attitude. -
06-09-2019, 10:03 AMvan_arnThe depressing thing is the number of tanks that don't do even that one button.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazzel120
My personal favorite are the halone heroes that never break off of their first target. -
06-09-2019, 10:06 AMLynesse
It's true that a lot of tanks can handle more than they think. It's also true that, in certain circumstances, pushing a scared tank can help them grow.
SoulEchelon is absolutely right in that this isn't the sort of behavior most of us want to default to.
If you do, then good. You care about people enough that you want them to get better, just like the rest of us.
Everyone's right in this thread. You're not arguing against each other, really, you're just pointing out that X approach is sometimes better than Y.
You're all smart people, and you all make good decisions.