Why? As I said, Vercure and Verraise don't generate White Mana, so logically not every Black or White spell needs to, even when they have a potency value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
If a Black spell were to recover MP instead of generate Mana, how would that be any different than recovering HP?
Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist
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03-22-2019, 08:20 AMArchwizard
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03-22-2019, 09:58 AMKaliseQuote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
As is currently, every Black spell is a damaging skill that is part of the RDM rotation and generates Black Mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
You need to justify why a skill won't follow this pattern.
Especially with something as vague as "If a Black spell were to recover MP". What are its mechanics? Where does it fit? Is it akin to Assize? Or is it more like Syphon Strike/Riot Blade? How much Potency does it have? Will people actually ever cast the thing instead of trying to play around Lucid/Refresh? Is it oGCD?
A spell needs justification for existing and for its mechanics.
If such a spell is a GCD skill, then it will need to either be REALLY strong (Thus being used on CD irregardless of MP restore) or generate Mana in order to see much use within RDM kits (Basically, it needs to be able to not be a massive DPS loss to cast it and given how much of RDM revolves around getting off as many melee combos as possible Mana or high raw potency to offset the delay in Mana generation is required). Since if its entire point of existing is "Sometimes you die and get raised and Lucid and Refresh are on CD and then you can use this skill" that's not a particularly interesting skill.
If it's oGCD, then there's no reason it needs to be a Black spell. You could just make it a hybrid spell like Jolt/Impact/Scatter or a neutral spell like Fleche/Contre Sixte (The former makes more sense as an attack that restores MP, combining Black (Damage) and White (Support) aspects)
These are the things to think about.
If you're adding a Black Spell for support. Why? What is it about Black that makes it be the go to school (Given Black magic is traditionally focused on making thing explode)? Why wouldn't it work better as a Hybrid/White spell?
If you're just adding the skill as a Black spell because "Well, we have 2 White support spells" then aren't you also just following the thought process you were just complaining about people being stuck in? :)
In general, because Black spells are more explody in nature, it is assumed that Black spells in RDM's kit will be offensive casts that generate Black Mana and be part of their rotation. Anything outside of that needs some quantifying about why it exists. With Black support skills needing even more because of White's natural affinity for supportive spells (Including MP related things, see: Assize and Thin Air and to an extent, Freecure) -
03-22-2019, 12:05 PMArchwizardWell, what I've been working with, refined by our more recent discussions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Verfreeze (240 MP, 2 sec cast): Deals ice damage to the target and enemies nearby it with a potency of 50 to the first target and 40% less for all remaining enemies.
Additional effect: Ice damage over time
> Potency: 35
> Duration: 30 sec
> The caster can only have one instance of this effect active at a time.
Additional effect: Damage over time ticks inflict 60% damage to enemies within 5y
Additional effect: Refresh
> Potency: 20
> This effect persists while Verfreeze is active on an enemy.
If my math's right, Refresh 20 is about enough to double our base MP economy and allow us to break even with our main rotation, saving LD for emergencies.
Damage numbers are subject to change, but they're presently based on the removal of potency from movement skills (approx 195p/30s), replacing one Jolt II per cast, and the approximate damage difference between Thunder III and IV (40%). This isn't accounting for the effect the loss of a GCD of mana would have on our theoretical DPS, of course, but I would hope the MP generation and reduced cost would net neutral at least.
And of course, the TAoE portion allows us to save button space from gaining 3-4 iterations of the same DoT, with one button that's equally useful in ST (for the MP) and AoE (for the cleave damage).
I believe this fits all of your stated criteria, and works as a "BLM utility" given the connection to Umbral Ice. Would you not concur? -
03-22-2019, 05:36 PMMansion
Some "unbalance" could be implemented and keep the job's flow logical. (Mind this is still built in my support-oriented mindset)
I already talked about a single ability that could me called "Black/White Sword", turning in one or the other if your mana is disbalanced and using one source of Mana. With Black Sword being something DPS oriented (maybe a soft Vuln up on the target) and the White Sword being more passive (like a Nature's Minne, or something like this).
Then you could have another ability working the same way (proc-ing according to your higher mana) ; if your Black mana is higher, it places a DoT on the target and ticks black mana, if White is higher it could be a single target medium regen, ticking White Mana.
That way you could arrange a ticking up of one mana and using the matching "Sword" ability before it gets too high (or keep using the other mana spells).
But in the end, it is still about managing your mana balance. -
03-22-2019, 07:17 PMKaliseI'm against passive MP regen that you just put up on CD. That you just keep up 100% of the time irregardless of its MP regen effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Since, unlike those 3 main jobs that have MP regen mechanics as part of their normal rotation (PLD, DRK, BLM) RDM doesn't have the same level of MP expenditure and as a result, focus on leveraging MP gain/usage.
This kind of suggestion is akin to suggesting "RDM's rotation skills should cost no MP" which is a step backwards in my opinion. I think active MP management should be more of a thing in the game, especially heading into ShB where TP is being removed (So maybe physical classes might also need resource management with no more infinite TP)
Now, because of RDM's focus on Mana management, I don't necessarily require something like with PLD/DRK/BLM where they have to focus around the MP generator, but something a little more thought provoking than "You get infinite MP (Outside having to Raise a bunch... But then you get Lucid to aid with that)" -
03-22-2019, 08:13 PMShurrikhanDon't we have enough maintenance buffs? If Mana is to be such an issue, shouldn't we simply reduce RDM's MP costs, apart from Verraise, in the first place? And if we want to abuse our utility even further, then, frankly, the compensating MP restoration should be more alike to a GCD-spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
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03-23-2019, 02:26 AMArchwizardYet you were advocating for a passive Mana generator in the one area of our damage we explicitly don't want another passive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
To say it's akin to saying "our rotation should be free" or "we should have infinite MP" is a stretch; you could use exactly the same logic to justify not giving any kind of MP recovery to anyone if they could potentially net-neutral.
I'm simply arguing that under current circumstances, in most high-end content we're basically living CD to CD with Lucid. In fact, exactly because TP is going away in ShB is why we RDMs in particular should raise our concerns with this, because if our melee combo isn't going to cost us TP anymore, just what do you think it'll cost?
Giving us a constant, weak Refresh mechanic that we would have to maintain is little different from giving us a rotational ability we build up to or a CD we'll smack on cooldown that gives us a large % of MP all at once, except that we would still have to wait at least ten seconds to regenerate the MP necessary to cast Verraise, rather than casting it immediately. And funnily enough, exactly those kinds of abilities already exist among other casters -- even BLM has one they never use!
What "maintenance buffs" do we have as RDMs? Access only to Lucid Dreaming is precisely the point being argued, and we don't juggle buffs or debuffs like other casters or even most other DPS; aside from Embolden, our entire rotation centers around instantaneous and single-use effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Meanwhile, we already have some of the lowest MP costs in the game, Vercure and Verraise aside, and yet here we are because we can't recover near what we spend. Besides, how would reducing the costs across the board to be closer to our base regen be any better than just raising our regen (and maybe the cost of Verraise)? -
03-23-2019, 02:55 AMKaliseBecause RDM combat is focused on building and expending Mana. Thus, having passive Mana generation aids with the generation, while the fact that it all gets dumped in one go over 3 actions ensures that the expenditure aspect is always satisfied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Bards try and time their Refresh for when its most beneficial and has to deal with it also being an Enmity cut skill.
WHM's have to use Thin Air when they're about to spam a bunch of spells.
AST has to actively decide to fish for a Ewer and use it over a better card.
PLD has to make sure to build up MP for its Requiescat phases while it wants to use Holy Spirit a lot when possible at the same time.
DRK has to manage how it utilizes its MP because it has far higher potential expenditure than it has gain as well as having the flexibility to pool MP for burst phases.
BLM has to actively go into UI phase in order to regen MP and it would rather sit in AF 24/7 if it could do so with no MP issues.
I'm not against an MP recovery tool for RDM. In fact, I welcome one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
I'm against an MP recovery tool that's as passive as this, where it's rolled into a universal DoT that you always want to keep active at all times and then you get no mana concerns at all outside of Raises.
Since, that to me, is as poorly designed as SMN with their spamming of Aetherflow on CD which they do anyway because that's how they do their damage with Fester/Trance/Bahamut.
Resources should be actively managed (This can also be about actively gearing for Piety breakpoints for healers too). With thought into how to maintain sufficient levels of them, it doesn't necessarily have to be as complicated as DRK, especially if resource management isn't the core focus of the job. But something more than just emulating the infinite TP of physical jobs is what I would like to see.
Especially since, I also wish to see physical jobs also have to manage resources come ShB. Like, we have things like Goad, Invigorate, Equilibrium (In Deliverance) and Tactician and they're all irrelevant because TP is infinite outside of AoE spam. -
03-23-2019, 03:24 AMJonnycbad
Stick MP regeneration on Enhanced Spellblade weaponskills with a trait. Makes your combo restore 15% of your MP (5% each hit). Should be fine and becomes part of your rotation anyway. That, or let RDM r ake advantage of that vampirism thing in their job quests and let them get a skill like Bloodbath that lets their spells refund MP back equal to 2% of their damage.
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03-23-2019, 05:01 AMArchwizardThe only reason your point falls flat is because you're comparing active MP gain tools on RDM to every class whose playstyle is based on active MP management in the first place. I'm not saying "RDM's playstyle should be based on pooling and expending MP as rapidly as possible" -- if anything we're the one Magic DPS that goes against that grain by completely ignoring the concept of MP recovery, albeit to our detriment -- I'm saying that in spite of being ostensibly efficient, we're leaky with resources and need some holes plugged. If the core of our playstyle is based around building and dumping Black and White Mana, then forcing us to actively manage our MP on top of that is somewhat of a distraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Besides, only so much can be said about "emulating the infinite TP of physical jobs" when we're having this discussion right before the removal of TP. If Square's concern with TP was that it was too passive, then for all we know every DoW will end up having to actively manage their MP as badly as any caster now.
Literally how is this any less passive than what I suggested? As stated, it'd be "part of your rotation anyway".Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
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03-23-2019, 06:49 AMKaliseSince when is WHM based around MP management?Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Since when is AST based around MP management?
Heck, they're both Healers so much of their design is around passive MP regen from Piety, the Healer specific stat.
Also, these are almost all of the MP using jobs in the game. I'm hardly going to compare to WAR's MP management with their grand total of literally no actual use of the bar.
The only other MP using jobs are Arcanist ones. Which, I mentioned that SMN was poorly designed because you just use Aetherflow irregardless of its MP restore because you need to use it for damage.
SCH, I'm not 100% sure about, I know in my experience of leveling up, I had to go out of my way to use up flow in order to cast Aetherflow again without wasting any flow (Often I'd cast Energy Drain for more MP because the heals either didn't exist at that level or lulshields/Lily was preventing me from actually needing to heal)
Hence why I mentioned that MP management mechanics don't all need to be to the same complexity of DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
RDM is focused more on Mana management. But that doesn't mean that MP management should be trivialized. Especially when Verraise is balanced against its MP cost. Having essentially infinite MP so that your MP bar is literally just a "Verraise Points" measure is not particularly interesting design in my opinion.
The first suggestion is not. It's literally the same thing, just making your rotation infinite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
As such, I'm not for it either.
The second suggestion, has some merit, because you'd want to time it around maximizing your spell cast output to maximize gains. Whether or not such a thing would end up working well is questionable.
But it's something that has some potential. I kind of like the idea of having some way of dynamically adjusting the potency of the MP restore. So that basic usage can more of less cover your standard rotation (Provided you use it decently and use Lucid somewhat regularly) while there's options to alter your rotation to try and maximize the gains to make up for large expenditure (Dying or Raising).
That would be the kind of thing I'd like to see. Nothing too taxing to manage, outside of the times when you really go ham on MP loss.
As opposed to "You just regen more MP while you have your 1 DoT active" or "You regain MP when you do your rotation as normal" -
03-23-2019, 07:24 AMKurandoI just wanted to interject that originally Aetherflow was the only action that ACN/SMN/SCH had available (excluding Energy Drain) to restore their own MP. The original recovery cost was 20% instead of the 10% we get now, and there was no role action like Lucid as an alternative. Sure AF was used to deal damage, but if no other player was in the party with Refresh capabilities (e.g. BRD/MCH) then you did have to watch your MP with it (especially when Ruin III used to cost a stupid amount to cast and Miasma II was still available to them as a dot option).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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03-23-2019, 07:30 AMCetonis
I think MP regen is a hard topic to theorize about, in general, without knowing the fate of Role Actions. Maybe SE decides they don't even like Lucid and each job gets more unique MP sustain methods, maybe Drain becomes RDM only and restores MP, who knows.
That aside, my personal theoryhope is that I think the ice and water abilities could be upgrades to Verthunder and Veraero, proc'ing the 50% of the time that Verfire/Verstone do not.
So when you use Veraero, half the time you get Verstone Ready, the other half you get Verwater ready. And Verwater is a 5s cast 350p spell or something that adds a little more mana and has just the 50% Verstone proc chance.
This way you add a little dash of extra complexity to the core rotation without really messing with the general flow, which has proven so very popular.
AoE can honestly be fixed with tweaks to existing things - making Enchanted Moulinet cost 20 mana and auto-proc Enhanced Scatter, for instance, would lead to a pattern that mixes is Moulinet more often, and two skills + an oGCD is pretty typical for AoE complexity. It'd also give Moulinet some 2-target applications maybe? Haven't crunched numbers, just exampling.
Other than that, yeah some way to fiddle with burst window timing would be a boon, maybe something that can slight tweak mana to offset it when you're even. Assuming they want to add something flashy for level 80, I'm not sure what would fit the bill from FFs past - maybe Shock, maybe Saber? Or some splashy buff / oGCD effect I guess. -
03-23-2019, 10:06 AMSunako
MP regen is easily fixed by increasing more melee comboes. PLD used to have tp problems too, but once holy spirit become part of rotation, tp become infinite. Same way rdm regain mana while rotating melee combo, since melee combo is free mana wise and passive mana is 2% mana every 3 seconds.
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03-23-2019, 01:58 PMShurrikhanThe game as a whole has enough maintenance buffs, imo -- Lucid Dreaming included. It does virtually nothing for entertainment or nuance in the vast majority of circumstances and could as easily be replaced with a simple buff to passive in-combat MP regeneration rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Why have a DoT just to have a DoT? Why weave in inferior spells for mana restoration, at cost to the cohesion elsewhere, when you could just increase regen?
I never said we shouldn't. I just listed the one because the two are functionally identical; one (reducing MP costs) is one step and the other (increase regen and increase MP cost) is two steps -- that's literally the only difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
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03-23-2019, 02:03 PMShurrikhanWhich then actually gave it [well, came as part of] a sense of gameplay instead of merely "hit this every couple minutes, roughly on cooldown"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
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03-23-2019, 02:07 PMKabooaSummoner rotation then was MP Surplus. You spent excess on Ruin 3, generally during raid buffs down to like 50%, then just let the natural surplus from Aetherflow 20% top you back up for the next burst window to happen outside of Dreadwyrm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The MP restores was secondary and it still was entirely around the actual stacks themselves. Any further consideration was largely due to dreadwyrm stacks having a duration. -
03-23-2019, 02:11 PMShurrikhanOh I don't care much that the MP itself wasn't gameplay, only that it was bound to something with an actual sense of tempo. Aetherflow-DWT had that. Why we needed to add something like LD, which just feels saggy and bloated by comparison, is beyond me. We already have Diversion. And frankly I'd have been fine with enmity skills still belonging solely to Shadewalker, Quelling Strikes, and Elusive Jump.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
I'm fine with MP being a non-factor for casters apart from rez costs. I'm not fine, however, with spending even more buttons on said non-factor. -
03-24-2019, 11:08 AMArchwizardExactly as you said, they're both healers -- some of the most MP intensive jobs in the game, and the majority of the reason BLMs can consider Mana Shift a semi-viable utility. If your healer runs out of MP, people die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
My concern with a suggestion like this, much like the question of having our Enchanted melee restore MP, is that we have to already have a significant MP investment in order to be able to replenish our MP in this manner.Quote:
The second suggestion, has some merit, because you'd want to time it around maximizing your spell cast output to maximize gains. Whether or not such a thing would end up working well is questionable.
A DoT may be boring, yes, but at least you can use it when you're at low MP to catch up more easily.
Except that TP is going the way of the Dodo in Shadowbringers, so we have no idea whether the melee combo will continue to be 'free' or begin consuming MP like our other abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
My take on this, from a design perspective, is that every gap in the design should be taken as an opportunity for expansion rather than just a problem to slap down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Increasing MP regen or cutting costs would fix the problem, but it wouldn't expand the gameplay in any way. Restoring MP by doing our melee combo doesn't expand the gameplay either.
About the only options for expansion are "create new interactions between skills we already have" or "more buttons" -- and personally I don't see why we should overcomplicate the solution to such a simple issue. -
03-24-2019, 11:39 AMShurrikhanAnd I would normally agree. I've suggested as much in regards to MP since HW. However, I have to wonder what even the most ideal manipulation of MP as a mechanic would add, and at what costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
And, again, I'd be fine with the first, so long as it doesn't get in the way of whatever more attractive gameplay it would cost. I'm not at all fine with the second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Naturally, as you most often need MP after Verraise, which doesn't remotely sync to your melee combos, or after death, which depletes the resource needed to perform your melee combos...Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
What can expand gameplay, however, is to make RDM's sword and its melee aspect more than just a tacked-on accessory. If there was reason to actually weave in melee more than once per vH/F cycle, you could use that to manage MP. The only issue is that it still comes at the cost of weaving melee for actual utility, power, timing, burst, or efficiency beyond simply "I overexpended MP/died recently". -
03-26-2019, 11:45 AMArchwizardWhile true -- particularly due to needing to invest MP into performing the melee combo before you could melee combo for MP, especially if they put the melee combo onto an MP cost with the removal of TP in ShB -- my intent with that statement was more geared toward the fact that melee comboing is something we already do. Simply tacking "also recovers X% of MP" onto any existing ability would not change in the slightest how we use the abilities, except possibly to encourage subpar gameplay; for instance, "just spam your unenchanted melee combo if MP gets low" sounds great if you only consider running low on MP to be a niche case caused only by death or Verraising, but not as a result of running your actual rotation for long periods, meaning it would eventually turn from a niche case into a part of the core rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It would address the immediate problem of MP consumption, but it would not add to the core playstyle in any positive way.
Besides, if the worry is that MP would only become a concern to us after Verraise spam, wouldn't giving us another means to burst-return MP be a bad thing...? -
03-28-2019, 09:12 PMShurrikhanQuote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
- So far we've been told to think of the removal of TP costs as 'Former TP costs being removed altogether, not just being switched to MP'. From what little we have to go off, it seems unlikely that RDM weaponskills will have any MP cost.
- We currently melee in one and only one manner, with no more than 3 GCDs of flexibility. Using our melee aspect in a manner that would preempt, rather than merely restricted by, interactions with B/W Mana would be something we do not already do. At level 70, we have no melee play, as it will never be used except in the context of Verflare/Verholy. We have Verflare/Verholy, with 1.8 GCDs of mobile 5-yalm skills prerequisite to it.
- I've not recommended tacking on MP rewards to any of our skills. I said only that it makes zero difference whether you reduce MP costs except to Verraise or increase regen (by whatever means) while increasing Verraise's relative cost, and thus recommended the simpler.
I merely mentioned that if we actually had a legitimate melee component to the job to skillfully weave, we could use that to abate mana costs, say, taking higher risk at roughly even ppm in order to improve MP sustainability. Note that I also mentioned it'd still be a bad idea because you'd then be forcing would-be superior gameplay into niche requirements. - Adding to the core playstyle would be one of the few things it would accomplish. It'd just do so better if MP wasn't a concern, outside of Verraise usage, in the first place.
- Better to have a period in which to badly sacrifice potency as to afford overuse of Verraise than have to maintain a DoT for MP sustainability, with little to no cohesion with the rest of your kit, on the chance that you'll need Verraise later, or to sluggishly recover from said overuse.
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03-29-2019, 07:42 AMAriel_Valmont
No DOT spells
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03-31-2019, 05:37 PMArchwizardI honestly don't understand all the knee-jerk reactions to the concept of any DoT spells whatsoever for RDM. I've seen it here, on Reddit, in-game discussions...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont
First of all, RDMs have a significantly lower stat weight for Spell Speed due to Dualcast. DoT ticks are affected by Spell Speed, which would bring the stat weight up.
Sure, if we had more options for gearing and the ability to pick-and-choose what secondary stats we had access to then this could be argued as a bad thing, but as it is you only have one or two pieces at any given stat level and they're made with all caster DPS in mind, so either way we're gonna end up with Spell Speed we're not really using.
Second, our rotation is arguably the most simplistic in the game, given that it's almost entirely predictable "replace X when Y procs" repetition that you could theoretically macro to half as many buttons. Considering the only complaint I've actually managed to drag out of someone about DoT spells is simply that they "don't like maintaining them" -- itself a highly biased assessment, where entire threads are full of counter-suggestions specifically for them -- we could stand to fit in an extra timer to shake it up.
Bearing in mind, no matter what, the next expansion is going to happen and within the next 5 abilities we get, something will change the rotation as we know it (based on both history and a game company's general need to add more content to maintain interest), so "why do we need to shake it up, I like things as they are" is a moot argument.
Third, having a DoT is more on-target damage during movement phases, which (while slightly less so for RDMs because of Dualcast) is particularly a weakness for casters between reliance on cast times and lack of autoattack damage. The tradeoff of being "annoying" to maintain is well worth it.
The only reason to justify not having a DoT as a caster, in fact, would be to point to significant burst damage... except that BLMs easily have superior burst to us and still have a DoT.
Fourth, DoTs are opportunities. Thunder gives BLMs an influx of procs to shake up their rotation, I've seen suggestions to have them provide resources or reduce select cooldowns, etc. Loads of ways to make a DoT unique and even add to the gameplay beyond just being a timer, so I shouldn't hear "well we're unique for not having one" either because 'unique' on its own isn't the same as 'good'.
My only concern with adding a DoT would purely be avoiding dull Multi-Dotting periods in our already-dull AoE, and there are loads of ways to avoid that (spread effects like Bane, alternative versions like Thunder 2/4, making it an AoE DoT outright like Aero 3, even just limiting it to one effect as suggested). -
03-31-2019, 06:02 PMShurrikhanI think it mostly comes down to the obligation of play and just the fact that at this point... almost everyone else has one, so what need does RDM really have for it? I'd argue the warrant isn't that solid, as creating "unique" gameplay or niche is rarely the purpose of DoTs (only the class with far more DoTs than any other, and therefore greater ramp-up but also greater cleave and sustain, can really claim such).Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
DoT ticks are affected by Spell Speed, but at a lesser rate, even, than Determination, iirc. Spell Speed still wouldn't be any better in itself; it's just that more of your damage would be GCD-based (or, less oGCD-based).Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
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04-01-2019, 06:58 AMKabooaSpeed stats are weighted on two scales. The actual increase, and the amount of damage it affects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Using arbitrary numbers, let's say the example is is Determination is worth 1% damage and Speed is worth 1% haste, for the same rating.
Speed scales differently than flat damage%. Speed is parabolic increase. 10% Speed is worth 11% more damage (11 actions take 9.9 gcds, 10 actions take 10. 10% damage is always 10% damage. This is why if you've ever seen a black Mage get improved arrows while leyline is active, they skyrocket. 15% + 15% on a multiplicative return is somthing like 28% speed, or about -40%- more damage.
But currently you cannot get to stupid speed levels without heavy buff stacking.
Using Red Mage specifically, any if you completely geared for Spellspeed, I think the highest natural point you can reach via gear is about 14%. About 16% more GCD based damage.
Using non-echo #1 Chaos Red mage, this Red Mage has a damage distrubition of about 82% GCD, 18% OGCD.
But wait, it's more complicated than that. The weaponskill combo is obviously not affected by Spellspeed. While more spell speed means you do the combo more often, that combo is suffering as it does not directly benefit from spellspeed in terms of damage. That's nearly another 18% damage that doesn't benefit from Spellspeed - After all, the advantage is more GCDs, but these GCDs are unaffected by that.
So the 14% spell speed you built for only benefits 64% of a Red mage's damage. This spellspeed number is built at the detriment of other stats as well. -
04-01-2019, 09:26 AMArchwizardExactly why we should allow more sources of our damage to be affected by Spell Speed -- because ultimately even if you don't slot in Materia specifically for Spell Speed, you're going to end up with a base amount from gearing at any given item level, which would otherwise drag you down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
A DoT wouldn't be enough on its own, obviously, but it could be a start. Also affecting our weapon skills and perhaps (indirectly, like our weapon skills currently) even affecting our cooldown timers would be able to add to this, until our stat parity is comparable to other casters. -
04-01-2019, 10:08 AMKabooaBlack mage is the only job that sees a near 1:1 return of Spellspeed compared to other jobs, and even then it's based more on the encounter. Crit / Det / DH become more useful as more movement is demanded, as higher spellspeed also means your movement related skills are less effective - You're getting less movement the faster your GCD rolls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Red Mage, Summoner, and almost every other job has the same aversion to speed beyond very specific break points. The Black mage is the odd one out here, not the Red Mage. -
04-01-2019, 01:06 PMShurrikhanBut, wouldn't it still make more sense to just fix spell speed itself than making a horrible stat only a tiny bit less horrible compared to others in arbitrary ways, at potential cost of gameplay, to one particular job? We're on the brink of allegedly "significant combat changes to the game" as is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
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04-01-2019, 02:26 PMArchwizard... and how do you propose that? Adjusting the %-value-per-point directly for everyone -- healers and casters alike -- to address its worth to a couple instant-spamming casters? Spell speed is a straightforward stat that's a staple to most video games, and I would argue if the concern is that only BLMs stand around enough to get full mileage from it, it's not the stat's fault but the design of the casters themselves for not being able to receive of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Like, let's say you're right and they adjust the weight of the stat. Will a 10% value per-point increase address any of the issues you're naming? 20%? 30+? Unless it makes it some godly overpowered stat, probably not, because you're arguing the issue is in the mechanical design ("less movement the faster your GCD rolls", bearing in mind that more accurately, you're getting more casts in the same allotted amount of time the faster your GCD rolls and can more easily clip movement phases) and not the amount of speed provided itself.
I mean hell, if it didn't affect the GCD it would be garbage for anyone with instants.
Mechanical issues need mechanical fixes. At the very least there needs to be some meeting partway within the design space of the class itself.
To be honest, "at potential cost of gameplay" in this context sounds like an awful lot of doomsaying on surprisingly little to go off of. -
04-01-2019, 04:16 PMDralonis
I'll pass on anything dot related. It doesn't add any depth nor value and it's not fun. I also don't care to be balanced around it. Not everyone needs a dot and it's refreshing to not have to deal with it.
I personally don't see them adding tons of complexity. Honestly, I almost get a feeling they may make some other classes a bit less complex or a bit more fair feeling. They see how popular Samurai and RDM are and they are a bit less complex, so they may try for a healthy medium. They could still add a bit more to rdm and samurai of course, but not to that of the levels a lot of people think they will. -
04-01-2019, 05:26 PMDualgunner
I'd rather avoid any DoTs being added for the sake of a DoT. If the DoT provided a unique mechanic somehow (beyond "Hey it generates mana too!"), I might be on board with it.
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04-01-2019, 05:47 PMShurrikhanMerge Skill/Spell Speed into just Speed, make mock-GCDs (like the fixed-GCD Meditation and the Enchanted melee chain) into actual half-GCDs, and have the damage of any oGCDs not already proportionate to Attack Speed (i.e. all but gauge skills) scale with Skill/Spell Speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
There. The stat now gives 90%+ of the weight of Crit, the current lategame dominant stat. Voila. -
04-01-2019, 09:19 PMArchwizardAs a WoW Refugee, I've seen plenty of examples of classes where DoTs were not only substantial portions of damage, but sources of (or markers for) additional mechanics like procs, debuffs, resources, or conditional detonations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralonis
... and BLM's Thundercloud, while simplistic, completely blew many of those out of the water. Were they to add a DoT, I'd have complete faith in the devs' ability to make it interesting.
"Complex"? Perhaps not, but nobody said a spell needed to complicate a rotation to add a shred more depth to it.
I agree that any DoTs hypothetically added to RDM should add mechanics to the class, particularly since unlike SMN, our design isn't based largely on DoT upkeep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualgunner
Although I've heard the argument against "DoTs for the sake of a DoT" more than once. Perhaps I'm thinking too literally here, but if such a proposal was purely made with the intent of giving us a DoT just to have something to upkeep, we'd probably be hearing things like "instant cast," "a cooldown matching its duration", possibly even some mention of being oGCD and adding nothing beyond being a damage skill. Yet I've still heard suggestions that attempted to add new interconnected mechanics be silenced with the same argument.
Bear in mind, I'm not arguing here that "RDMs absolutely need a DoT and they have to add one." I'm just saying that I don't see the value in dismissing such suggestions offhand.
Question, given that I'm still somewhat new to the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
How many other classes actually use both Spells and Weaponskills in their rotation, and would actually receive benefit from the merger of Skill and Spell Speed?
Because to my knowledge it's just RDMs and maybe two spells for PLD (the damage of one of which is affected by weapon delay anyway), which if I'm not mistaken, would mean you're discussing reprogramming an entire stat system and changing input values on who knows how many pieces of equipment... just to avoid changing some input values on a couple of our abilities, which would have to be rebalanced anyway...?
Simultaneously, while I concur that your suggestion would address the issue of the stat's value, my concern with "scale damage with Skill/Spell Speed" is largely that barring a few 'unique' cases (including the PLD spell I already mentioned, or breakpoints), increasing a Speed-oriented stat should affect... well... speed? -
04-02-2019, 03:04 AMKabooaRed MageQuote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Dark Knight (Unleash, Unmend, Abyssal Drain)
Paladin
Bard
The cross over isn't extensive, but it makes zero sense to have skill speed and spellspeed be functionally the same but two different stats.
I doubt Dancer and Gunbreaker will be added to that last, but you never know. -
04-02-2019, 04:47 AMJessicake
I just want it to stay simple. I am stupid clumsy in this game and I play RDM so I can run around like a chicken with their head cut off and still bring significant DPS.
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04-02-2019, 08:14 AMShurrikhanThere are four jobs that do, but honestly that isn't even that significant, except perhaps to Paladin. Using scaled GCDs instead of a fixed 1.5 second GCD regardless of Attack Speed, likewise, only affects three jobs. The main question there is, why not? There's no reason for Spell Speed and Skill Speed to be separate stats. There's no reason MCH, NIN, and MNK should receive zero benefit of Attack Speed on certain skills or under certain effects. It is less complex for Skill Speed and Spell Speed to simply be Speed, rather than each affecting only one type of skill, and we already know from the current Spell/Skill split that we can apply Attack Speed scalars to specific skills, allowing half-GCDs that actually can scale with Attack Speed, rather than the fixed 1.5-second ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
The precedent for Skill Speed affecting more than just GCD speed has been set since mid-ARR when we did the exact same thing to DoT damage. Back then the discussion was whether to increase tick speed or increase tick damage. The devs called the prior impossible, and thus we have <Increases attack rate and increases periodic damage.> Later, auto-attack was changed from rate to damage probably as a sidelong nerf to NIN and PLD in preparation for SB, thus giving us <Increases GCD rate and increases auto-attack and periodic damage>. It's far from a one-stat-one-effect deal as is.
Leaving abilities unaffected means that either Speed must be balanced around high %oGCD jobs, which would make it ridiculously strong in the hands of low-oGCD% jobs, or left viable for low %oGCD jobs and nearly worthless for everyone else. There is no other way to balance Speed across jobs than to give it an ability component.
However, unlike DoTs, increasing the rate, rather than damage, of abilities, has actual potential harm in addition to its greater complexity, namely desync with other abilities and with raid (de)buffs. Thus, damage is all that's left. Thus: <Increases attack rate and ability and periodic damage> is your smoothest possible outcome (giving back AA rate in exchange for AA damage), and would scarcely be any more "needlessly complex/muddled" than Crit's "Increases chance to deal a critical hit and increases the damage modifier of critical hits." Both would at that point just be sensible, and, apart from their more exponential nature, quite balanced.
There are ways to make a DoT effective as a toolkit augmentation, but the means are badly limited so long as the margin of flexible GCDs between melee combos is so small. If I were to use a DoT on RDM, for instance, it would be a faint damage loss outside of AoE used in order to bank B/W mana. But this thread has yet to propose an example of using it to add flexibility or nuance, and nearly every DoT in this game (essentially, all but TC) -- at least in single-target combat -- works as if limited by those same warning signs you've mentioned, so expect people to expect the norm, which essentially means the worst. If and when that actual gameplay (beyond mere DoT maintenance) is given, well... the very quote you've quoted would suggest people would then be open to the idea, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
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04-02-2019, 09:55 AMIlanI thought so too but then i went into suzaku and RDM suddenly became more fun than NIN.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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04-02-2019, 11:09 AMDralonisI think the main reason they haven't and probably won't is mostly because spell speed wouldn't scale well for us mostly with dual cast. Even if we had a dot, we still wouldn't want it as a stat and it wouldn't grow much more powerful, so why have it? Not every class needs to have proc stuff from dots. SMN have sorta kinda procs but only based on RUIN III / RUIN IV . MCH have procs but it's not from dots. BRD as well but both of those jobs are actually quite busy and they don't have casts. So, it's not really a big deal to have. Procs work a bit differently in this game than what you may expect in WoW because they aren't as instant. The game runs on server ticks so there's a delay. So, We currently don't really have a big reason that it's a big deal to have something proc dependent .Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
BLM feels sorta odd with their procs that you don't even want to cast it until you are at a certain part of your rotation since when you cast the procs, it uses the GCD so you can't cast for about 2 seconds,so you wait to cast thunder until you are in umbral ice. At that point, why not just have Thunder a OGCD that it's not based on the proc anyways? it would be good when moving. which BLM's definitely need help with by being far and large the least mobile mobile class. Maybe the proc would trigger an OGCD , it would just add some clunk to it that isn't needed to the mobile, fluid style of RDM.
I'm not saying it's impossible to incorporate and that it would be bad, just, why do that? We already have a few OGCD's and,more than any other casters, they could just add another, why have a reliance on a dot? what's the point? for something slightly dynamic? Eh. Makes it a bit harder on them to balance so they may not care for such a thing. -
04-02-2019, 11:21 AMArchwizardI looked over the list of spells available to players and, unless I missed something, the only spells I found in the BRD's arsenal were their song cooldowns. Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, still learning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
I concur that it would have made zero sense to have skill and spell speed be the same but different... when they were implemented. I can understand perhaps if the two were intended to be programmed to have different weights (ie 100 Skill Speed being 10% attack speed affecting auto-attacks, versus 99 Spell Speed being 11% cast speed, as example numbers), to which I'm sure the counterargument is simply that the combined stat could be programmed with different weights on each side anyway.Quote:
The cross over isn't extensive, but it makes zero sense to have skill speed and spellspeed be functionally the same but two different stats.
Regardless, they permeate the game in their current state, which means that in order to combine the two now, the devs would have to take the time and resources to address every piece of gear that provides either one, materia, consumables, etc, as well as rebalance classes that would be directly affected. That's not even including rare cases of items that, for whatever godsforsaken reason, already provide both.
I highly doubt it's as simple as CTRL+F "speed" and copy-pasting down a text document.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that RDM, DRK and PLD have cross-type skills specifically meant to act as fixed GCDs. If the two stats were merged, the devs would most likely need to re-evaluate specifically those skills, and determine if they remain fixed GCDs or become affected by Speed. Regardless of their decisions on a case by case basis, the point is that they are being evaluated individually.
Versus, the devs skipping ahead and simply addressing those individual skills now, and leaving the separate tuning knobs in place. No taking the time to redo what I can only assume to be literal thousands of items.
Which do you think they would prefer?
Most likely because nobody in this thread is actually working on the design of FFXIV, meaning that suggestions do not need to meet the scrutiny of other players, but of the dev team who ultimately decide what and how to balance and program skills. To get into specifics would only serve to invite pedantic in-fighting, on top of creating attachment and hype for ideas that we ultimately have no control over actually getting into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
For this reason, it's more productive to argue the broad merits of suggestions, not the specifics.