Its ffxiv combat really so slow and boring?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Yes there's a learning curve, but it's a curve worth exploring, practicing, and mastering rather than begging for button consolidation.

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it will happen anyways. Do you really think we're going to be able to add 5-10 more abilities next expansion to our current setups, on top of the expanded role slots? We're back to HW in which you can talk about practice all you like, that didn't overcome the skill floor issue. If they add any more abilities, stuff is going to need to be taken away, and combos can be pruned to a 1-1-2/3/4 with no issue.

If anything, the combos in this game solely exist because SE tied buffs and debuffs to each hit, not because hitting 6 buttons is better than one. And a lot of those debuffs are bad design; people have been annoyed at the piercing one for years for example. I don't see anyone here complaining much about missing maintaining 2-3 dots as a melee class, even in HW where AST and MCH started at base 30 for theirs, not base 15ish for many jobs. You could easily just tie the buffs/debuffs to last hit buttons, and remove bridging hits without much issue. Stuff like needing an enmity and non enmity combo could probably be tied more into the last hit or given alternate styles of play.

Something will have to change for 5.0, because if we go back to HW ability levels, but with SB's mobile bosses, we will all be in big trouble.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Well, if you actually played MNK and did your own research, you'd find that answer.

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One Ilm Punch is part of the combo on the Raptor part of it. That's a fact and you denying it is absurd.

Monk with consolidated combo buttons would have:

Button 1: Bootshine, True Strike, Demolish. The three "rear bonus" skills.
Button 2: Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Snap Punch. The "flank" skills.
Button 3: Arm of the Destroyer, One Ilm Punch, Rockbreaker. The "special" skills that have no positionals.

In other words, the three buttons will be:
Opo-Opo and without form: Bootshine, Dragon Kick and Arm of the Destroyer.
Raptor: True Strike, Twin Snakes, One Ilm Punch.
Coeurl: Demolish, Snap Punch, Rockbreaker.

There is no way to do it than this, nor is there any reason as to why One Ilm Punch shouldn't be there. It's not used by monks?! And who cares?! It still won't be used by monks. There's no reason why it would need to be used by monks if it's crap. But it DOES exist and it IS optional part of a combo so it obviously would be consolidated.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

it will happen anyways. Do you really think we're going to be able to add 5-10 more abilities next expansion to our current setups, on top of the expanded role slots? We're back to HW in which you can talk about practice all you like, that didn't overcome the skill floor issue. If they add any more abilities, stuff is going to need to be taken away, and combos can be pruned to a 1-1-2/3/4 with no issue.

If anything, the combos in this game solely exist because SE tied buffs and debuffs to each hit, not because hitting 6 buttons is better than one. And a lot of those debuffs are bad design; people have been annoyed at the piercing one for years for example. I don't see anyone here complaining much about missing maintaining 2-3 dots as a melee class, even in HW where AST and MCH started at base 30 for theirs, not base 15ish for many jobs. You could easily just tie the buffs/debuffs to last hit buttons, and remove bridging hits without much issue. Stuff like needing an enmity and non enmity combo could probably be tied more into the last hit or given alternate styles of play.

Something will have to change for 5.0, because if we go back to HW ability levels, but with SB's mobile bosses, we will all be in big trouble.

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Uh, most jobs got no more than three new skills; with four being the exception. We're not getting anywhere near ten. Some basically got the same skill back at a higher level, i.e. Ring of Thorns deleted for Sonic Thrust or Stoneskin for Divine Benison

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Originally Posted by kikix12

snipThere is no way to do it than this, nor is there any reason as to why One Ilm Punch shouldn't be there. It's not used by monks?! And who cares?! It still won't be used by monks. There's no reason why it would need to be used by monks if it's crap. But it DOES exist and it IS optional part of a combo so it obviously would be consolidated.

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One problem with that. Unless you can customize the consolidation, you'd be forced to use One Ilm Punch since using Arm of the Destroyer would have to advance all three buttons into the Raptor, thus locking out access to True Strike and Twin Snakes.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

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Bad MNK confirmed.

You already have an on-demand stun (Shoulder Tackle and Leg Sweep) and a good, respectable player who plays monk....would never want nor care about putting that skill on their hotbar ever, even during a consolidation theory. Most pretend it doesn't even exist.

You sticking up for One Ilm Punch as a needed ability is absurd, but I needed a good laugh I suppose...

The consolidation theorists have turned something that's generally muscle memory which isn't hard to do if you map out your hotbars in a smart way into and instead, a memory game of what button turns into what and when.

You made something already basic and easy to see and process into a convoluted maze for no reason. So, instead of seeing threads about button bloat, we'll see threads about why this ability turns into this and so on and so fourth. You're getting rid of what you perceive is a problem by making another problem on top of it.

This "Foul turns into Flare when under AF, Freeze when under UI, and stays as Foul when neither" is stupid. I should be able to use either of those skills (maybe not Freeze though) without things turning into one another at my will and leisure. I don't need button consolidation for my job and the theorists are fools if they think it would be an optional system put into place or that they won't do it for every job.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

it will happen anyways. Do you really think we're going to be able to add 5-10 more abilities next expansion to our current setups, on top of the expanded role slots? We're back to HW in which you can talk about practice all you like, that didn't overcome the skill floor issue. If they add any more abilities, stuff is going to need to be taken away, and combos can be pruned to a 1-1-2/3/4 with no issue.

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See, I’m of the mind that they don’t need to add more skills in 5.0. Or that they could simply do upgrades to existing skills to make them more powerful (a la how BRD’s DoTs got upgraded in SB). Or give traits to make jobs more interesting, or give them a different mechanic. We don’t need “5-10 more abilities”.

Or they could prune the actual useless abilities, which they should have done prior to 4.0 (Repelling Shot, Blank Shot, One-Ilm Punch, to name a few—how these are still in this game boggles my mind). Throw the CC skills in there too, if they aren’t going to make them relevant outside of niche scenarios (I’d rather see them be made relevant, but I don’t think that will happen).

With regards to the controller talk, building up muscle memory helps a lot with regards to swapping hotbars, toggling the extended cross (or W-cross), etc.. If you don’t practice the muscle memory, of course you will struggle. As it stands now, though, neither DRG nor BRD (two jobs you’ve mentioned in this thread) have trouble with button space on a controller.


As for your comments earlier about BRD....

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Would people really miss the three main bard songs as they are now though? They make the class tremendously reliant on RNG, and having three different effects only matters due to troubador, all three are just dps increases otherwise. You can easily spend a third of the timer with no real dps increase from a song at all. I feel like they could just revert mages ballad to an always on effect, get make refulgent arrow similar to pitch perfect, make the songs their troubador effects, and little would be lost. IDK if bard is a good example because the class in my opinion is needlessly complex.

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I would not want to see the removal of songs/consolidation into just “1 song”. I disagree about removing complexity and simplifying everything simply “because”—the different songs give you different things you have to do in order to optimize your rotation, and I think that’s a good thing. Rather than just mindlessly spamming a boring and empty rotation. Why is having something a bit complex such a bad thing?



I would also like for the developers to at least have an expansion where they don’t completely overhaul my job and force me to relearn how it actually plays. They would be foolish to do much more than small QoL changes to BRD, because it’s pretty much unanimously agreed that the job is perfect now.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

See, I’m of the mind that they don’t need to add more skills in 5.0. Or that they could simply do upgrades to existing skills to make them more powerful (a la how BRD’s DoTs got upgraded in SB). Or give traits to make jobs more interesting, or give them a different mechanic. We don’t need “5-10 more abilities”.

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More traits and mutations/evolutions of current skills is definitely what they should do, but it's also how they should have handled SB's release instead of chopping up what was already there.

Passives for out-of-combat things like movement would also be a decent idea for showing the progression of the character over time; NIN already does something like this, but they stopped at that for whatever reason.

I do expect things like Heavy Thrust to be on the chopping block since they've already nearly removed them, though. With the [Damage Type] resistance down skills/effects and things like Protect probably not far behind given community demands and interview topics.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Why is having something a bit complex such a bad thing?

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I don't know if it's good complexity though. The three main songs do the same thing in different ways, and they don't work all that well. The bloodletter proc idea isn't really designed to work in short 30 sec spans, especially when you need multiple procs to get full effect. Plus they added a second proc with refulgent, plus troubador, plus all the support abilities. I feel like they punished ranged physical in order to balance out the mobility gains by making them overcomplicated messes.

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See, I’m of the mind that they don’t need to add more skills in 5.0. Or that they could simply do upgrades to existing skills to make them more powerful (a la how BRD’s DoTs got upgraded in SB). Or give traits to make jobs more interesting, or give them a different mechanic. We don’t need “5-10 more abilities”.

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Yeah, I don't think getting 50 more potency or 15 seconds extra duration on a DOT will cut it. Part of why people raged about WHM is that it played the same, with durations modified or little bonus effects added. If the game was more robust a merit system might work, but all we can do is get more damage, more duration, etc. I don't want to grind five million exp for a trait that lets my demolish last 60 seconds now.


...to be honest though, this is all on Yoshi, and we need a public test server so we can actually give feedback on which way 5.0 is going. If we had a test server, people could then test and vote on it, maybe even talk directly to GMS. They can't keep throwing stuff at us and hoping it sticks now.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I don't know if it's good complexity though.

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Considering BRD is the most popular job by far, it means that not a lot of people share your complaints. The complexity the job has is not nearly as complex as you seem to think.

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The three main songs do the same thing in different ways, and they don't work all that well.

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Sounds to me like you don’t know how to work the songs; I have no problems with getting any of the mechanics to work as they are intended.

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The bloodletter proc idea isn't really designed to work in short 30 sec spans, especially when you need multiple procs to get full effect.

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If you know how to manage your procs and EA timings when you force one, you don’t have issues utilitizing the River of Blood mechanic in Mage’s Ballad despite the shorter duration.

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Plus they added a second proc with refulgent,

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The only change they could make is turning a Straighter Shot proc into Refulgent; you will never use the former over the latter.

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plus troubador, plus all the support abilities.

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Troubadour can be difficult to optimize around, but you can manipulate your song rotation to an extent to have it land where you would direly need the appropriate mitigation. As for the support abilities, BRD is a support job. It’s supposed to have support abilites; that is its identity and always has been.

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I feel like they punished ranged physical in order to balance out the mobility gains by making them overcomplicated messes.

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The only thing we’re punished by is our reliance on Piercing. That has nothing to do with our rotation. Again, not everything needs to be braindead/mindlessly simple “just because”. Learn the job, and you don’t have problems—coming from someone who used to spam Straight Shot and never use DoTs when they started playing, and turned that behavior completely around within a couple months after being told it was wrong.

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DoTs

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Uhm... DoT potency adds up over time. The amount of damage BRDs get from DoTs alone is more than you would think. I’d suggest looking at some data to see just how much damage they do over time.

15 more seconds of the base potency adds 275 on Stormbite, and 225 on Caustic Bite. That brings the total potency to 825 for SB, and 675 for CB. That is ridiculously potent; as it stands now, IJ is already our strongest skill with 1100 total potency: 100 for base, and 1000 for DoTs. Adding 50 more potency to 30-second DoTs. would move SB to 105 potency for 10 ticks (1,050 total potency) and 95 potency for 10 ticks (950 potency total). That is substantially more damage overall.

Math is your friend.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Well, I'm definitely an outlier. Which is why I would like options. BRD feels absolutely awful to play for me. I don't like redundant abilities. BRD has too many things that all accomplish the same thing.

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If by the last statement you mean damage, that applies to literally every job in this game. Elaboration would be appreciated.


EDIT: Nevermind, the forum lied to me and said I had no posts, but then posted my response to the elaboration anyways. Okay.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

They would be foolish to do much more than small QoL changes to BRD, because it’s pretty much unanimously agreed that the job is perfect now.

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Well, I'm definitely an outlier. Which is why I would like options. BRD feels absolutely awful to play for me. I don't like redundant abilities. BRD has too many things that all accomplish the same thing.

That said, a simple combo system would not make BRD fun to me. It would need more work than that.

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If by the last statement you mean damage, that applies to literally every job in this game. Elaboration would be appreciated.

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Stormbite, Caustic Bite, Iron Jaws.
Heavy Shot, Straight Shot (Straighter Shot).
All three songs. The mechanics changes the songs have could easily be removed from them, and they'd all be identical outside of Troubadour. I'd prefer actual complexity, making the songs themselves more interesting.


With conditionals (based on which buff you have, or which debuff is on the enemy), you could turn the first two sets into a single button each. Because of that, I consider them redundant. They do the same exact thing, only changing based on a condition. I see this as a false sense of complexity. It's complex only for the reason of being complex. It's not interesting complexity.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Considering BRD is the most popular job by far, it means that not a lot of people share your complaints.

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Are they? I don't think anyone has done a census for them in a while though. using sea on my server for level 70s has slightly more rdm and whm than bard. I don't see them as often as I used to, honestly.

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Sounds to me like you don’t know how to work the songs; I have no problems with getting any of the mechanics to work as they are intended.

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They are reliant on crits, "working as intended" is always going to have chance, the problem is bloodletter procs are ok if you don't get a lot of them for 20 seconds and a bunch after, but for the songs not so much.

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If you know how to manage your procs and EA timings when you force one, you don’t have issues utilitizing the River of Blood mechanic in Mage’s Ballad despite the shorter duration.

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Ah no, what I meant was they don't work so hot if you need 3 procs or 4 procs within a certain amount of time. You get the four procs early, great. You get them 20 sec in, not so good. Mages is ok ,the other two songs though lose a lot when you can't.

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Uhm... DoT potency adds up over time. The amount of damage BRDs get from DoTs alone is more than you would think. I’d suggest looking at some data to see just how much damage they do over time.

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You miss the point, just raw potency increases is not enough. Not everyone grinds just so they can get 50 more potency or what have you on an ability, they need more than that. The weapon is cool, or the ability looks great, or it changes how you play or gives more options.

An expansion with tiny changes and potency changes won't really help, any more than the tiny potency changes they do with Feast get people into the mode. Like FFXI when they did merits added abilities, not solely potency increases. They added those too, but weren't grinding millions of exp for them alone. Again, if the game were a bit more robust it'd be ok, but since everything boils down to damage, straight potency or minor buffs will have less impact save for the min max crowd.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Are they? I don't think anyone has done a census for them in a while though. using sea on my server for level 70s has slightly more rdm and whm than bard. I don't see them as often as I used to, honestly.

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BRD is the most popular job and always has been. Just because you “don’t see them on your server” doesn’t change that fact. You hate the site, but even with it being a small percentage of the playerbase, the majority of uploads on that site are from BRDs. Not RDMs and not WHMs.

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They are reliant on crits, "working as intended" is always going to have chance, the problem is bloodletter procs are ok if you don't get a lot of them for 20 seconds and a bunch after, but for the songs not so much.

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Rarely do you ever have a Mage’s Ballad where you only get a couple procs at the end. Controlling and boosting your proc rate is something that you do have a semblance of control over: proper gear and melds, and knowing when to snapshot crit-enhancing buffs on your DoTs. I never go a run where I only get procs at the beginning or tail-end of Mage’s, and I play almost exclusively BRD at this point.

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Ah no, what I meant was they don't work so hot if you need 3 procs or 4 procs within a certain amount of time. You get the four procs early, great. You get them 20 sec in, not so good. Mages is ok ,the other two songs though lose a lot when you can't.

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With Army’s Paeon, where it’s ideal to get your four Repertoire stacks early on to get as much benefit as you can from them. Even so, though, the benefit is minuscule, and not enough to stay in Army’s for the full 30 second duration—especially with a Minuet+RS window coming up in 20.

Not getting a full 3-stack PP during RS is a crappy feeling, but if you time your EA usage, you are always guranteed at least a 2-stack during an RS window—EA is used once and only once in Army’s, and delayed until Minuet so that you can use it twice during your RS window to force procs.

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You miss the point, just raw potency increases is not enough. Not everyone grinds just so they can get 50 more potency or what have you on an ability, they need more than that. The weapon is cool, or the ability looks great, or it changes how you play or gives more options.

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I have to point out the irony that you’re complaining about jobs being overly complex and about hotbars real estate, yet you’re insisting here that jobs need more than potency increases and essentially more rotational complexity. That directly contradicts what you said earlier.

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Again, if the game were a bit more robust it'd be ok, but since everything boils down to damage, straight potency or minor buffs will have less impact save for the min max crowd.

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Then speak to the developers about making enmity matter in the game; about increasing the need for tanks to stay in tank stance, or for healers to actually have to heal. The latter would mean harder hitting outgoing damage from mobs/bosses though.


I’m not going to continue using posts to argue with you; it always feels like a pointless endeavor. So I am leaving the conversation at this. I still don’t think that new expansions means “add 5-10 new skills”; boosting potencies and adding traits to vary job mechanics can be just as engaging as adding an extra button to press (and considering how a lot of players in this playerbase don’t even want to press their buttons... I mean, they did nerf Heavy Thrust simply because people couldn’t it hit every 11th button...).

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Stormbite, Caustic Bite, Iron Jaws.

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The fun with DoTs comes from snapshoting buffs to increase their potency and the rate at which they give you procs. Not just applying them and leaving them on a boss.

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Heavy Shot, Straight Shot (Straighter Shot).

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With conditionals (based on which buff you have, or which debuff is on the enemy), you could turn the first two sets into a single button each. Because of that, I consider them redundant. They do the same exact thing, only changing based on a condition.

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At level 70, you never use Straighter Shot over Refulgent Arrow, so it as part of your rotation is something you don’t really consider past level 54 actually (when you can Barrage EA).

In response to your comment about doing the same exact thing, they don’t function similarly—SS is a critical hit rate buff that you need to upkeep (reapply every 30 seconds) and that you always snapshot your DoTs under, and HS is your filler that procs RA for more damage. They don’t do the same thing functionally; they serve different purposes, not the same purpose.

The only argument you can really apply this to are the DoTs, but that would apply to all jobs that have more than 1 DoT—WHM, SMN, SCH. I don’t really see that as a reason to consolidate them though; you don’t save much by doing so.

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All three songs. The mechanics changes the songs have could easily be removed from them, and they'd all be identical outside of Troubadour. I'd prefer actual complexity, making the songs themselves more interesting.

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Of course everything is identical when you strip them of their mechanics that make them different.

The complexity with your songs lies within manipulating your DoTs with buff snapshoting and timing EA to force procs in your favor. Not just idly letting the procs happen. Minuet’s procs have different conditions in which you use 3-stack PPs versus 2-stack PPs; Mage’s is the old River of Blood trait, which you can manipulate in AOE situations to grant you more AOE firepower with Rain of Death using EA. The only song I agree is lackluster is Army’s Paeon, which don’t have a proc mechanic in the sense the other two do—it’s strictly a haste buff, and the gains are minuscule which is why BRDs clip it early to re-enter their burst phase.

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I see this as a false sense of complexity. It's complex only for the reason of being complex. It's not interesting complexity.

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Complexity lies within your DoT management and knowing when you need to actively manipulate songs for certain parts of a fight (in an optimized setting), not Straight Shot or Heavy Shot, naked DoTs, or a song rotation where you don’t actively try to manipulate RNG procs in your favor. You have to look at more than just a base rotation; everything seems basic when you just think about it in terms of the bare bones.

I’m fine with people thinking a job isn’t their cup of tea, but I still needed to tell you where the true complexity with the job lied. This isn’t considering watching out for party support, and Foe’s+Refresh management.

If we agree to disagree, that’s fine. But I don’t think BRD is a braindead job that lacks complexity—pulling off high amounts of damage on it is something where you definitely need deep knowledge of how to manipulate DoTs and procs in your favor. Sometimes RNG screws you over anyways, but I’ve always found it extremely fulfilling to pull off a powerful opener, or pull high numbers in a fight.

To each their own.

I am really not interested in retreading arguments that Hyo has already adequately covered, but I would like to say that Bard requires a different mentality than most in order to truly maximize what you can do. Easy to play, high skill ceiling based on reaction speed and a deep understanding of how the game mechanics work.

There's a reason why a lot of Bards are clamoring for changes so that they aren't essentially chained to the presence of a DRG in a party in order to even think about competing with other DPS of the same skill level. The essence of Bard -is- RNG, it is the one thing that has survived through all of the various Bard overhauls done every expansion thus far. Learning how to play Bard is essentially figuring out how to manipulate the RNG in your favor, like learning what other party members' buffs and debuffs do so that you can snapshot Iron Jaws to extend higher crit rate, or throwing your DoTs on multiple enemies in a dungeon setting to get Rain of Death to reset between every GCD during Mage's Ballad. BRD is also the one DPS job that is most reliant on party composition - hence the nasty ranged physical DPS meta that only exists because for some reason the devs simultaneously gave a party crit buff AND the only source of piercing debuff in the game to DRG.

Either way, to simplify the crit-related RNG on the BRD's end removes the only complexity the job has - and it can subsequently rocket Bard into broken tier. I mean, do recall what Bard was like back in ARR. Absurdly high damage from anywhere on the field when played properly for a fraction of the effort needed to play other jobs in comparison.

I should mention that due to the nature of BRD's proc resets, it is also the one job where you lose the most DPS by sitting on your procs. If you don't use Bloodletter/Rain of Death during Mage's Ballad before you get a crit proc again, you just straight up lost 100 x the amount of mobs/150 potency. Same case with Wanderer's Minuet, though it is a bit more complex there that has spawned many debates about whether or not it's better to use Pitch Perfect at 2 stacks or wait until 3 (and risk one lost 'overflow' stack if the DoT is a double crit).

Do also notice that Bard is quite support-heavy, though for some reason this is only really emphasized in the last 10 or so levels. At this point, I've learned to time my song rotations to an entire dungeon run, to the point where I will almost always have Army's Troubadour + Palisade ready for the tank during the most dangerous mass pulls, followed by a machine gun barrage of either Pitch Perfects or Rain of Deaths, and still have my openers ready when we reach each dungeon boss.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Of course everything is identical when you strip them of their mechanics that make them different.

The complexity with your songs lies within manipulating your DoTs with buff snapshoting and timing EA to force procs in your favor. Not just idly letting the procs happen. Minuet’s procs have different conditions in which you use 3-stack PPs versus 2-stack PPs; Mage’s is the old River of Blood trait, which you can manipulate in AOE situations to grant you more AOE firepower with Rain of Death using EA. The only song I agree is lackluster is Army’s Paeon, which don’t have a proc mechanic in the sense the other two do—it’s strictly a haste buff, and the gains are minuscule which is why BRDs clip it early to re-enter their burst phase.

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The songs themselves being boring is the part that I don't like about them. They could keep the other parts but separate it from the buffs, and make the songs themselves more unique. The buffs themselves are redundant, and there's very little choice in using a song. As it is the only real choice is which to use first, and which to cut short (which is a given because it's simply inferior to the others). There's little reason in there even being the three songs.

All of that though is just part of why I don't think Bard is particularly fun, and not why I find it unfun. That has to do more with the DoTs, and the other abilities I mentioned. SS/HS/RA all do fill the same function. Outside of not letting SS fall off, you will never have a situation where you will have to decide between two of them. If SS isn't on, you would use SS. If SS is on and Straighter isn't, you would use HS. If Straighter is on and you're not level 70, SS. If you are level 70 and Straighter is on, RA.

Just like you don't like pressing 1-1-1 instead of 1-2-3, I don't like pressing 1-2-3 when I could instead press 1-1-1. I do not find them to be mechanically different, I don't find it any more engaging, and psychologically, I dislike the thought of using an inferior method when a superior method (in my opinion, of course) could be implemented. Every time I play BRD, the redundant abilities bug me and just put me off of the job.

Thus, I would like options. You play the current way, I'd like to play mine.

You have options. Your problem is there's an optimal order decided by the playerbase, which would happen no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You have options. Your problem is there's an optimal order decided by the playerbase, which would happen no matter what.

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The options I was talking about was consolidating abilities. But if you're talking about songs, no, there isn't an option, unless if you consider going without a song for 40 seconds to be an option.

So I guess order of play isn't an option anymore.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

So I guess order of play isn't an option anymore.

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This order of play?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

As it is the only real choice is which to use first, and which to cut short (which is a given because it's simply inferior to the others). There's little reason in there even being the three songs.

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Yeah, the choice of the order in which you play songs. It's more choice than most jobs have with regards to their rotations, actually.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Yeah, the choice of the order in which you play songs. It's more choice than most jobs have with regards to their rotations, actually.

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Not sure why you're bring it up then, when I had already mentioned it. As I had already mentioned it, that clearly isn't the problem I have.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Not sure why you're bring it up then, when I had already mentioned it.

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Because you said there was no option/choice.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Because you said there was no option/choice.

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No I didn't.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

and there's very little choice in using a song. As it is the only real choice is which to use first, and which to cut short

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Here it is, see?

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I hope you're joking. That is referring to deciding which song to use next. There is no decision on which song to use next, because once you've set your order of play, it can't be changed unless if you let yourself go without a song active for 40 seconds.

The post I was referring to ("not sure why you brought that up then") happened before I even said what you quoted. This one:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You have options. Your problem is there's an optimal order decided by the playerbase, which would happen no matter what.

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But that's clearly not the problem I have with the songs, as I had mentioned that was actually one of the choices you actually do have. Which is why my next post thought they were referring to which song comes next, not which order to play them in, because I had already mentioned order is a choice.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

But if you're talking about songs, no, there isn't an option, unless if you consider going without a song for 40 seconds to be an option.

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Here it is, see?

You have 6 song orders you can choose from, plus which ones to cut short and which ones to take to term.

Optimal playstyle is a whole different matter.

I mean if you want to overly simplify things then you could say it's slow, but that doesn't speak for what the game's battle system does well on. Theres more to it than just how many skills you have and how fast your cooldowns and stuff is. In my opinion SE tossed that speedy actiony stuff out the window and made up their own style and i think it was a success. With ffxiv its not simply spam all or cooldowns. It's more how you use them and in what order while also dodging and doing original and creative mechanics/strategies to fights. That's what i liked about all ff games is that they take strategy and make it their own. I wont say all other mmo's but i will say alot of other mmo's (i have played many) arent as intricate as ffxiv is in terms of creativity and strategy of battles. Most mmo's ive ever played were simple in the sense that you just needed to make sure your stats were high enough for a battle and then you just go in and spam click skills until the mobs die, maybe dodge an aoe here and there but there was no actual creativity or mechanics put into it. That is why i love ffxiv and chose it as my #1, aside from the glamours and relics which i also love alot. Alot of mmo's ive always played were also very linear too just grind to cap and keep geared up. In FFXIV i feel like im getting my moneys worth when i sub because there is A LOT of content in this game. People who argue saying their isn't are people who do not do the side content. That doesn't mean it's non existent. This game has a LOT of things to offer. Regardless how biased this may sound it IS just my opinion so take it as that, just that i myself think that the speed of combat isn't everything and shouldn't be the only thing that determines a game's worth.
'

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Quicken the GCD and it makes each individual GCD feel less impactful. When you're casting Flare/Deathflare or whatever [insert huge damge GCD] much faster than you are currently, they feel less important than "ive been building up to this huge attack for 30 seconds, time to unleash it!" vs "i can do this move every 10 seconds, no biggie".

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lmfao i just leveled my black mage to 70 finally and i completely agree with what you said. Every time i build up to get foul and cast it and it crits i look around at my party members and i think to myself "omg did you guys just see that!!!! i just pounded that mob in the ground with a single hit!!!!" lol. It's fun. I don't think anything is wrong with the combat. In ffxiv it's not the same old same old mmo crap where you just stand in one spot and spam buttons. It actually takes thought and practice to maximize your dps and rotations. Alot of people keep saying negative things about it when i feel like it's the exact opposite. It's unique and original and not overly simplified like most mmo's out there.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

The slowness of combat has a lot to do with the combat itself, how static it is and how my artificial difficulty they put in. And by that I mean things like dps checks, this is not difficulty, this is artificial difficulty and it is used heavily in ffxiv. So, it does feel slow compared to other mmos and esp slow compared to single players.

Even ESO and GW2 feel super fast in comparison since they also incorporate roll dodging, blocking and what not. I find myself using only my mouse to battle sometimes unless I have to side step a red circle on the ground. And even then I can often eat chips with one hand because I know "Boss A just did this, I can now play using only my mouse til he does this is 2 minutes or he doesn't do anything that hurts bad enough to constitute a dodge" Can't do that in ESO or GW2, nor can I just sit and watch Netflix while only paying 25% of my attn to the game because of muscle memory and because I know there is nothing important to watch for. Even overworld mobs in other games have more dynamic combat systems than some bosses in ffxiv.

SE makes combat feel more difficult with procs, dmg buffs you need to upkeep and sometimes positioning, but these are all forms of artificial difficulty, esp when they are as excessive as they are in ffxiv. You should never spend a fight managing procs, you should spend it engaging an enemy. The more you need to stare at your hotbars the less complex combat is and the less engaging it feels. Again, the combat feels slower due to the way combat is designed moreso than actual time.

tldr
It feels slow because most the time you stand still, there is very little need for movement, too much time spent managing blinking lights and the GCD is a little longer so you add both these things up and you get combat that at least feels slower than it is.

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I don't think that just because ffxiv has its own original and unique way to add difficulty to mechanics/combat justifies you saying it's "artificial". You can say it is different, but what it isn't is artificial. Artificial implies that its not original and that it's a sort of fake or imitation, which it is not because there is no base way of doing things. Game's are supposed to be different, if every game out there was exactly the same why would we play other games. That is what is good about ffxiv anyway is that it's unique and not the same cut of the crop that almost every other mmorpg out there is.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

The options I was talking about was consolidating abilities. But if you're talking about songs, no, there isn't an option, unless if you consider going without a song for 40 seconds to be an option.

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This is when you use the layout of the fight to determine your song rotation, and you use downtime to your advantage to manipulate your rotation further. I’ll even give you an example:

For UwU, my song rotation is normal in Garuda and Ifrit (except I don’t play Army’s at the end because I can skip it, and immediately re-enter Minuet once the next primal shows up). When Titan spawns, I do the following rotation: Minuet > Army’s > Mage’s > Minuet > Army’s > Mage’s. This is because of the possibility of getting gaoled after Minuet finishes, so you use Army’s instead so, if you’re gaoled, you lose the least potency. My rotation is similar in Ultima: Minuet > Army’s > Mage’s > Minuet > Army’s (clipped) > Mage’s > Minuet, and by the time Suppression resolves, my song rotation is fixed to go back to the “default optimal rotation”. Army’s is used when he becomes untargetable, so that, again, you’re only losing out on the least potent song, not the ones with more potency.

You use encounter downtime to manipulate your songs to your advantage. That’s how you optimize them. If you’re talking about how “rigid” they are, you can use that argument for any job with a combo system. BRDs have more freedom of deciding their song rotation than jobs that have combos do when deciding their rotation. You use the encounter to pick the most optimal—sometimes it’s the default, sometimes it’s different.

Unless you’re referring to the “optimal” rotation always being your default, but that’s the same for anything. There is an optimal way to do a rotation, and anything else is suboptimal. However, given a fight’s timeline, you can manipulate the songs enough to make an even more optimal rotation considering downtime and/or mechanics where you may not be able to target the boss for a majority of a song. BRD is priority-based; you establish priority based on the encounter. I agree with others that it has more freedom than most in terms of core rotation.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Yes, I did. I’m arguing about how it is different on a psychological level: for me, more movement for my fingers means more engagement in the combat; I feel more engaged. Less movement (akin to hitting 1-1-1 which is physically different from 1-2-3 if we want to get super technical/pendantic) means less engagement; I don’t feel engaged. You’re arguing that claiming there’s a difference “is silly”; I’m arguing that I disagree, because there is a difference: physically (on the technical level) and psychologically.

If you say that the combo system is boring, why advocate for a system that is going to further dumb it down? Not saying that you specifically are, but for the sake of discussion: why advocate for something even more monotonous that what is already present, if you think the combat system is currently boring and/or unengaging, and that this new system could potentially make that glaringly obvious.

I also explained the only way in which I would accept such a system—you would have noticed that one is in line with your additional oGCD suggestion.

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To clarify - I am pretty sure we're on the same page and in agreement. I may be wording poorly.

1-2-3 and 1-1-1 are identical for all intents and purposes from a complexity/depth perspective, I may not have been clear on that. The order of presses never changes. It's never 3-2-1, or 2-1-3, etc. However, I did cover (and you acknowledged and agreed) that it would definitely be more boring (as you mentioned psychologically speaking).

I would not advocate for switching to PVP system WITHOUT corresponding updates to other systems.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is when you use the layout of the fight to determine your song rotation, and you use downtime to your advantage to manipulate your rotation further. I’ll even give you an example:

For UwU, my song rotation is normal in Garuda and Ifrit (except I don’t play Army’s at the end because I can skip it, and immediately re-enter Minuet once the next primal shows up). When Titan spawns, I do the following rotation: Minuet > Army’s > Mage’s > Minuet > Army’s > Mage’s. This is because of the possibility of getting gaoled after Minuet finishes, so you use Army’s instead so, if you’re gaoled, you lose the least potency. My rotation is similar in Ultima: Minuet > Army’s > Mage’s > Minuet > Army’s (clipped) > Mage’s > Minuet, and by the time Suppression resolves, my song rotation is fixed to go back to the “default optimal rotation”. Army’s is used when he becomes untargetable, so that, again, you’re only losing out on the least potent song, not the ones with more potency.

You use encounter downtime to manipulate your songs to your advantage. That’s how you optimize them. If you’re talking about how “rigid” they are, you can use that argument for any job with a combo system. BRDs have more freedom of deciding their song rotation than jobs that have combos do when deciding their rotation. You use the encounter to pick the most optimal—sometimes it’s the default, sometimes it’s different.

Unless you’re referring to the “optimal” rotation always being your default, but that’s the same for anything. There is an optimal way to do a rotation, and anything else is suboptimal. However, given a fight’s timeline, you can manipulate the songs enough to make an even more optimal rotation considering downtime and/or mechanics where you may not be able to target the boss for a majority of a song. BRD is priority-based; you establish priority based on the encounter. I agree with others that it has more freedom than most in terms of core rotation.

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None of which is the problem I have with the songs. And the songs aren't even the main problem I have with BRD. I'm clearly not being understood, so let's just drop the whole BRD thing.

The main thing is I don't like presing 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1 and you don't like pressing 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1. But I'm not even asking for you to have to press 1-1-1. I want myself to be able to choose to press 1-1-1 instead, while you can keep doing what you've been doing. That's all. I honestly have nothing more to say on the subject. It's just personal preferences.

How would they be able to build a system where both could coincide?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

How would they be able to build a system where both could coincide?

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And now we're back at the beginning. They leave all the abilities alone, but give us a "Combo" button we could also add to our hotbar.

Want to put your abilities on your hotbar as you have them now? Go for it. Want to add the combo button instead? Then do it.

Want to do both at the same time? You can.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

None of which is the problem I have with the songs. And the songs aren't even the main problem I have with BRD. I'm clearly not being understood, so let's just drop the whole BRD thing.

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Clearly I’m not being understood either. I’m addressing the songs because you explicitly said there were no options. You said SS/HS/RA all served the same function, but they don’t, and I explained that. Don’t say they’re the same. But let’s just drop it.

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The main thing is I don't like presing 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1 and you don't like pressing 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1. But I'm not even asking for you to have to press 1-1-1. I want myself to be able to choose to press 1-1-1 instead, while you can keep doing what you've been doing. That's all. I honestly have nothing more to say on the subject. It's just personal preferences.

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This was mentioned before, but the developers aren’t likely to make this an “optional system”. If it’s not optional, then people who don’t want to press 1-1-1 are going to be forced into it. That is the main complaint a lot of people that have been responding to you have, and I know it was mentioned several times before.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This was mentioned before, but the developers aren’t likely to make this an “optional system”. If it’s not optional, then people who don’t want to press 1-1-1 are going to be forced into it. That is the main complaint a lot of people that have been responding to you have, and I know it was mentioned several times before.

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Then people can say "I wouldn't want it if it's not optional, and I don't think they'll make it optional" instead of "I wouldn't want it." Instead they're completely against it without even considering the optional part.

Would you be against other players having this option if it was indeed made optional?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Then people can say "I wouldn't want it if it's not optional, and I don't think they'll make it optional" instead of "I wouldn't want it." Instead they're completely against it without even considering the optional part.

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Except several did tell you that they were against it because it would more than likely not be optional. We’re literally going in circles now.

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Would you be against other players having this option if it was indeed made optional?

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If it wasn’t, I wouldn’t care. But I do care because I doubt that it will be.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except several did tell you that they were against it because it would more than likely not be optional. We’re literally going in circles now.

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Not wanting something if it wasn't optional and not wanting something because you think it wouldn't be optional are not the same thing.

But thanks for your answer.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Not wanting something if it wasn't optional and not wanting something because you think it wouldn't be optional are not the same thing.

But thanks for your answer.

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I see that I made a typo—I meant if it was optional, I wouldn’t care about it being implemented. I don’t want it if it’s going to be mandatory, and I think it would be mandatory if the devs put it in the game as a new system. And, again, that’s what many people have been telling you: they also think it would be mandatory, and that’s why they don’t want it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I see that I made a typo—I meant if it was optional, I wouldn’t care about it being implemented. I don’t want it if it’s going to be mandatory, and I think it would be mandatory if the devs put it in the game as a new system. And, again, that’s what many people have been telling you: they also think it would be mandatory, and that’s why they don’t want it.

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Yes, I'm aware of that. But saying "I don't think it would be optional, so I'm against it" doesn't actually answer the question of "But if it was optional, would you still be against it?" Which is why I asked that question to you directly. I asked the question multiple times in the thread, in multiple ways, yet you're the first person to have answered it so far.

Are people seriously defending One llm punch? Like legit seriously? I didn't even know that move still existed. No monk EVER not even trolls who go into content in fist of wind only trying to be sonic the hedgehog screaming monk buffs from Mr. Happy use that move. That move is .... no just no. WHO DEFENDS ONE LLP PUNCH? - misspelled on purpose cause thats how much respect it needs.. NONE. D: D: D: D: D:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

How would they be able to build a system where both could coincide?

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Hoping I haven't missed your antecedent here...

You could provide a greater-than-mere-sum compromise of a sense of obligatory rotation and choice through flexibility to Bard songs (and therefore mechanics-augmentation) by reintroducing Mana outside of the content of Foe Requiem alone, likely using BV as the stand-in for FR in order to remove the Refresh advantage felt by Bard in dual-ranged comps (more on this at end).

Give activation and drain costs to each Song. This drain cost increases over time, in fluid but notable stages. Once you've stopped singing the particular song, that progressive drain-cost-increase reverses itself. Bard MP maximum reduced greatly. The result of this is that one must rotate songs roughly every 30 seconds in order to maintain their mana indefinitely, but now have the choice to dip into that reserve at varying lengths in order to really milk an opportunity which disproportionately advantages a particular song, warranting burst and lull over sustain. These stages should be made quite clear within the gauge graphic, and upon introduction to each new Song.

Suggested Battle Voice change: In a manner similar to Hypercharge and Troubadour, allow BV simply to generate Song-specific benefits raid-wide for the following 20 seconds. This allows for a DHit, Crit, and Haste buff, where the DHit benefit amounts to the highest average dps throughput increase, as it does not affect heals or procs. Foe Requiem removed. Still provides no benefit to the Bard him- or herself.

Edit: Naturally, you'd also have to remove the oGCD damage upon Song activation unless using decently steep activation costs. Personally, I'd rather see drains occur only with each hit or tick scored, otherwise acting as if out of combat and beginning to revert unused songs' drain costs (including the one still running but doing nothing), and for the oGCD damage to be removed, meaning that they could again be cast without a target, rather than requiring an oGCD slot during the opener.

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Originally Posted by Daemic

Combat is boring because it's a stagnant, static skill system: each player has the exact same skills as others of that class. There's no variety or creativity like in build-based systems. The simplicity is mind numbing, and rote memorizing the "optimal rotation" of your tiny pool of abilities is the opposite of enjoyable.

At least healing and tanking is a dynamic enough experience to stimulate some brain function.

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But then you'd just play like everyone else with your build of your class, whilst the majority of possible builds are far from optimal for the given fight...

You'd just be taking would-be in-combat (i.e. gameplay) decisions as made possible through simultaneously available skills with shared opportunity costs and instead forcing it into out-of-combat menus. That's all the fun of having to recraft your ammunition before the start of each fight.

Don't get me wrong; I like character customization. But unless that progression system is uncapped and almost entirely open, with choices inherently flexible even while permanent, it has no bearing on gameplay, only on theorycrafting (or, for the vast majority of players, website browsing).

It's not a matter of illusion of choice. That'd already be inherent in having more than one or two jobs of each role if not for the limit gauge gimmicks, and anything other than the optimal or basically optimal meta compositions even with it. It's a matter of fundamental conflict in purpose. If the goal of customization is to allow for difference and personal exploration of all the world has to offer, combatitively speaking, then that's not going to be found in menus. It's going to be found in quest lines, achievements, factions -- essentially, your tour of the world and its techniques -- where you make best use of whatever you have available. And it requires a much more mechanically deep and fluid system beneath combat than XIV offers in order to allow such a vast variety of builds to contribute competitively, along with greater distinctions in the sites and extents of that content (everything from sieges to espionage to dangerous environmental exploration).