Letter to MR Yoshi: Why parses system is destroying the ffxiv world.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Refer to this
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._bad_news_for/


As much as I'd love to see Yoshi-P deliberately break all the tools, It would take elliptic-curve cryptography to prevent the FFXIV ACT Plugin from being able to record that data in the first place (as opposed to the fixed key to access the lobby). Yet it's likely they'd just use an off-the-shelf crypto, which would just add more latency and increase the minimum CPU requirements. The only reason it works at all is because the existing plugin only needs to use zlib, and not for very much.

The irony is, Yoshi-P is clearly aware of the kinds of cheating going on, and hasn't cracked down on players doing it, which ends up giving the impression that nobody will ever be punished for ANY kind of automated play.

The very definition of cheating is "to violate rules or regulations"

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Don’t like how yoshida runs his game don’t play pretty simple, same with the OP have an issue with the community don’t be in it. All you’ve done is cry about how things don’t go your way get over it.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

The problem is the toxic player classify and discriminate others by the colour of their logs and that is not fair guys! You can join and clear a raid if your reach the MINIMUM dps required and nobody is allowed to treat you bad if your logs are grey! If your log is grey you still can have fun and dont damage anyone but if you attitude is [bleep] you do!!!

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Let's say someone squeaks by in an o5s clear doing 3k dps on SMN but they beat enrage by the skin of their teeth because one if the dps in their group was exemplary - just hypothetically, of course - the group has reached the 'minimum dps required' and yet if the entire group was playing at the level of that SMN they would all have died to enrage.

There is no reason to treat people poorly because of their logs but if someone's poor performance is going to mean hitting enrage it is certainly fair to kick them and seek out someone who can perform at the required level.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Anyway I asked a question few times but nobody got attributes enough to reply to that: If you have orange logs do you think to be a better player than ppl who don’t? if the answer is yes means you are DISCRIMINATING!
Nobody will reply because you know that by replying: Yes I am better! you would give me automatically right.
Still I think logs can classify DPSs by their results but not healers or tanks lol

And if I said someone got the brain of a cow, I didn’t do names and I won’t so why you feel offended if you are not a cow ?!

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Having orange logs doesn't necessarily mean one person is better than another because a lot goes into a single run. A player who is consistantly getting purple/orange parses is likely more skilled than someone who is consistantly grey though, that's just a fact.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

To reply to MS HYO: many ppl offended me! mine was a post to suggest a change in the community but most of you are full of hathred !

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Blatantly disagreeing with the things you have written =/= "being full of hatred". I disagree with people who try to dictate how I should have fun, much like you do. But your definition of "fun" takes the fun out of this game for many different people. Not everyone wants to play the way that you do.

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BIS I saw for SCH gives you 2500 crit, 142ish piety and 124ish DET and I PERSONALLY DONT LIKE IT! I don't need so much Piety and I prefer to have more DET. You can have the full BIS and not be good or not have it and do great is the player that matter.

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Last I checked, there are many different kinds of BiS for all three healers. The reason Crit is so valued on SCH is because more Crit = more chances at getting a crit-Adlo. Spread that to the party via Deployment Tactics, and watch as they take virtually no damage from heavy raid-wide AOEs. Piety is not needed for any healer, and most will meld probably want to meld Determination where they cannot meld Crit because Spell Speed and Piety are garbage-tier stats. However, so many piece of gear have both on them, so you have to deal with what you have. The SCH BiS you're referencing probably takes any piece of gear with Crit on it because, again, that is what is most heavily valued for the job.

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The concept of Logs and BIS bother me and it took from me all the fun from playing DPS, What you top dps do? just blindly follow SOMEONE ELSE ROTATION and do pew pew pew! wow what an achievement do like puppets what other told you to do.
FYI elitist player don't need someone to tell you how to play but the create and optimize their own rotation with their skills.

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This game isn't designed to "create your own rotation". There is an optimal way to play a certain job - i.e., an optimal rotation - and any other way is generally sub-optimal. You don't roll BRD and alternate between Heavy Shot and Straight Shot, or spam one of your DoTs, or Iron Jaws without both DoTs on a target. You don't randomly use your songs in whatever order you please - there is an optimal order for them.

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Still guy you are outside of topic, the point still is why discriminate ppl if they dont have purple/orange logs on PF? if the damage is SUFFICIENT everybody can play, develop new classes without you judging them!!! if you hit the grey line you dont damage anyone is a matter of fact but toxic ppl do for entires parties!!

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Grey percentiles usually means that the damage ISN'T sufficient. Hence why the percentile is so low compared to higher percentiles. Of course, there are other factors to consider such as gear, deaths, party comp, and the like. But if you are wearing i360+ gear with an i360+ weapon, and you still cannot manage 5k DPS (remember, that is average for a DPS job), then you have a serious problem, and do not belong in Savage.

People that perform sub-optimally are damaging others - because they're basically requiring the rest of the party to pick up the slack and carry their dead weight to a clear.

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Anyway I asked a question few times but nobody got attributes enough to reply to that: If you have orange logs do you think to be a better player than ppl who don’t? if the answer is yes means you are DISCRIMINATING!
Nobody will reply because you know that by replying: Yes I am better! you would give me automatically right.

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It depends on why the logs are why they are. Any raider worth their salt will know to comb through a log and see why the damage values are so low. If they see a geared DPS with zero deaths doing only 3k worth of damage in V6S, then there is a huge problem with that player. Not wanting to have to carry someone who cannot even perform at an average level in content that actually demands competency is not discrimination.

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Still I think logs can classify DPSs by their results but not healers or tanks lol

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Wrong. You can easily tell who good and bad tanks and healers are by their logs just as much as you can DPS if you know where to look.

To JohnSeal, oh don't you worry, I will indeed reply. Because I'm nice like that :D

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Originally Posted by Ultima

WoW has DBM that informs you of upcoming mechanics in X seconds and the like, so you can't call that cheating because Blizzard developed around there being such addons instead of banning or breaking them.

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To be fair, that doesn't mean that the same should be allowed in this game. There's a reason people consider the WoW community to be a lost cause, and I imagine many FFXIV players are largely refugees from other MMOs including WoW. I also imagine that the WoW devs' stance on those add-ons is one of their biggest regrets, because the situation there is now so far gone that touching it at all would alienate the most vocal chunk of their remaining playerbase. It's likely the reason why the FFXIV staff does not want to take any hardline stance for or against parsing - whatever they do with such a topic would lead to irreversible consequences.

(It's worth mentioning that any mention of parsing at all used to result in permanent bans from these forums. Many guide writers got nailed at the start of HW just for showing screenshots or recording videos with parsers running in the background. It would appear that has quietly changed as of late, either because of a change in moderation staff, or someone higher-up noticed what was happening/decided it really shouldn't be ban-worthy and told the moderation staff to cut it out - especially since all the world first raiders that the developers and a significant chunk of the playerbase/observers who have yet to play FFXIV are watching streams of all have them running in the background anyway.)

I should note that the FFXIV community's tolerance to dev missteps ranks among the highest of all of the MMOs I've played regardless, and it's likely because our concerns at the end of the day are small compared to the concerns that players of other MMOs have towards said other MMOs.

Even so, there's a Grand Canyon-sized valley between 'parsing' and 'using packet data to prepare for mechanics before they visually appear on screen'.

You guys are making extreme examples of SMN with 3k DPS that is almost impossible! Or which bard play just with few skills or using heavy shot over and over again? This are cases that you see 1 in 500 players. I repeat my concept: you train yourself a lot and master your class before to join savage content! If you can’t kill the dummy in SSS you don’t sabotage others party but if you reach THE MINIMUM REQUIRED (I think v1 for SMN is 4400ish I presume) If you want properly join she healers and tanks by their parses you can but need to study accurately the parses! You check uptime,death,ppl mistakes,dots uptime,use of roles and AT LAST DMG!
If a PLD doesn 3/4K dps bit doesn’t cover,use divine veil,interventions on Mt,Reprisal when required mean is still a bad tank to me! The DPS itself is secondary to this things I just listed.

Still the problem more than competency is attitude! I mean I made real life examples about healers refusing to heal because want a better parce or DPS making idiotic mistakes..

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

You guys are making extreme examples of SMN with 3k DPS that is almost impossible! Or which bard play just with few skills or using heavy shot over and over again? This are cases that you see 1 in 500 players.

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I suggest you go read the Tales of the Duty Finder thread if you think these things are rare. Or just look over some of the gray percentile logs that SMNs and BRDs have. I don't know how long you've been playing, but I've been playing since Nov 2015, and I've seen just about everything in DF and PF - the good, the bad, and the very ugly.

Oh, where to begin. By the way, JOHN, thank you for at least not using a wall of text. It makes things much easier to digest. Now, about your post...

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

The concept of Logs and BIS bother me and it took from me all the fun from playing DPS

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So don't be a DPS then, duh! Your gear has a direct effect on your stats, so if you don't like it, don't use a DPS. Problem solved. Moving onto the next complaint...

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

What you top dps do? just blindly follow SOMEONE ELSE ROTATION and do pew pew pew! wow what an achievement do like puppets what other told you to do.

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You know, there is a thing called optimization. If you want to be able to perform at a level that maximizes the potential of a job, then yes, there are rotations that theorycrafters have spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours on to figure out. I can assure you, learning these rotations are not that easy on some jobs - partly due to muscle memory. But hey, by all means, go on and gimp your other party mates if you don't want to see what others have figured out is the most optimal rotation (actually, rotations, because The Balance has a tendency to showcase around 3 rotations per job generally). Go ahead and be that Monk that ALWAYS use Tornado Kick when it's up, and always uses Brotherhood separately from Riddle of Fire, thus missing out on a whole lot of damage. Be that Bard that never uses Foe's and doesn't rotate their songs. Be that Dragoon that never refreshes Heavy Thrust, or uses the Chaos Thrust combo exclusively because it's flashy, or uses all three jumps immediately. Feel free to use Red Mage and never uses the Impact proc when it's up.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

FYI elitist player don't need someone to tell you how to play but the create and optimize their own rotation with their skills.

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Oh yeah, that will go over real well. Go ahead and just make up your own rotation, and miss out on a whole bunch of potency. Feel free to be that 2k player. Be all that you can be, as the old US Army slogan goes.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Still guy you are outside of topic, the point still is why discriminate ppl if they dont have purple/orange logs on PF? if the damage is SUFFICIENT everybody can play, develop new classes without you judging them!!! if you hit the grey line you dont damage anyone is a matter of fact but toxic ppl do for entires parties!!

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Quit using that word. I feel like you read another hot thread and decided it would be good to use it here. It's not. It makes you look like a fool for even using it as much as you have. And ...what? Develop new classes? WTF are you talking about? No seriously, what are you talking about here? I recognize that this is a rant, but it makes zero sense.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Anyway even if many of you don’t agree with me some other ppl do !! if you see online on any forum about ffxiv there are many ppl defining parses and LOGs as CANCERS so I am not alone guys!!

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And? Oh noes. Other people disagree with what I'm saying, therefore I should be ashamed to share my opinion anymore. Oh the horrors. The shame! So much shame. Smh, grow up.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Anyway I asked a question few times but nobody got attributes enough to reply to that: If you have orange logs do you think to be a better player than ppl who don’t? if the answer is yes means you are DISCRIMINATING!

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Again with this word. Just because you put it in all caps doesn't really mean anything. I can do that too. IGNORANT! That's how I feel this statement is when you use that word.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Nobody will reply because you know that by replying: Yes I am better! you would give me automatically right.

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Yeah...no. I want to say that you're delusional when you say this, that your ego needs a huge check - but no, I just think you're a troll who is looking to stoke some flames. Yes, that's what I think! So you know I am automatically right!!! Ah...I messed that up. Hold on...let me try again.

This whole thread reeks of bait. And as you read this, you'll know that I AM AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT!!!

See that? I see you like to troll, so when a troll trolled you, I trolled the troll and then I trolled you. Does any of that make sense? No, but it makes a helluva lot more sense than the drivel you've posted tonight.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

If a PLD doesn 3/4K dps bit doesn’t cover,use divine veil,interventions on Mt,Reprisal when required mean is still a bad tank to me! The DPS itself is secondary to this things I just listed.

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Ohhohoho, what have we here? Do I spy with mine eyes an elitist here? The plot thickens!

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

To be fair, that doesn't mean that the same should be allowed in this game. There's a reason people consider the WoW community to be a lost cause, and I imagine many FFXIV players are largely refugees from other MMOs including WoW. I also imagine that the WoW devs' stance on those add-ons is one of their biggest regrets, because the situation there is now so far gone that touching it at all would alienate the most vocal chunk of their remaining playerbase. It's likely the reason why the FFXIV staff does not want to take any hardline stance for or against parsing - whatever they do with such a topic would lead to irreversible consequences.

(It's worth mentioning that any mention of parsing at all used to result in permanent bans from these forums. Many guide writers got nailed at the start of HW just for showing screenshots or recording videos with parsers running in the background. It would appear that has quietly changed as of late, either because of a change in moderation staff, or someone higher-up noticed what was happening/decided it really shouldn't be ban-worthy and told the moderation staff to cut it out - especially since all the world first raiders that the developers and a significant chunk of the playerbase/observers who have yet to play FFXIV are watching streams of all have them running in the background anyway.)

I should note that the FFXIV community's tolerance to dev missteps ranks among the highest of all of the MMOs I've played regardless, and it's likely because our concerns at the end of the day are small compared to the concerns that players of other MMOs have towards said other MMOs.

Even so, there's a Grand Canyon-sized valley between 'parsing' and 'using packet data to prepare for mechanics before they visually appear on screen'.

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From my perspective, the WoW community isn't the problem, the FFXIV community has been worse to me than the WoW community has been in the decade plus I've had exposure to the game. I never had people be so ignorant and refuse to get better at the game like XIVers seem to insist that they should play how they wish. The dev team won't make a hardline stance on anything because they have no idea what to do and that's a problem. A dev team without ideals can accomplish nothing, we didn't get a new tank or healer because they wanted to adjust tank/healer balance and it didn't work. Because they can't decide if Healers should DPS or if they should heal or if tanks should be allowed to leave tank stance while being MT or not - thus the roles are basically Healing DPS and Tanking DPS. You just heal or pop cooldowns then go back to hitting the boss as hard as you can. Thus leading to people arguing about job design because the devs can't even tell us whether or not they intended for WAR to be able to use Deliverance 100% of their time as MT.

The FFXIV community is notoriously tolerant of FFXIV creating the same thing over and over, repeating the same mistakes, and ignoring problems that they themselves created without any input from the players to cause it like: Housing, Job balance, what have you. Our concerns are not "small" by any means, they're identical to those of other games, XIV players are just more tolerant and sometimes tolerance is a bad thing because it means that poor behavior isn't punished, it's instead rewarded.

Even so, Kisai is a fool to compare parsing to packet data, but nobody is arguing that Kisai isn't talking out of the wrong end.

I still don't get this thread. There's a pretty big disconnect between 'not using your skills/using your skills incorrectly' and 'parsers'. Because people who want a high parse will naturally want to do everything correctly anyway. :/

I kind of wonder if OP lost a bet/ran into someone that outright lied about what parsers actually do and asked them to start a crusade on the forums, because said someone had already been banned from here prior.

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Originally Posted by Ultima

From my perspective, the WoW community isn't the problem, the FFXIV community has been worse to me than the WoW community has been in the decade plus I've had exposure to the game. I never had people be so ignorant and refuse to get better at the game like XIVers seem to insist that they should play how they wish. The dev team won't make a hardline stance on anything because they have no idea what to do and that's a problem. A dev team without ideals can accomplish nothing, we didn't get a new tank or healer because they wanted to adjust tank/healer balance and it didn't work.

The FFXIV community is notoriously tolerant of FFXIV creating the same thing over and over, repeating the same mistakes, and ignoring problems that they themselves created without any input from the players to cause it like: Housing, Job balance, what have you. Our concerns are not "small" by any means, they're identical to those of other games, XIV players are just more tolerant and sometimes tolerance is a bad thing because it means that poor behavior isn't punished, it's instead rewarded.

Even so, Kisai is a fool to compare parsing to packet data, but nobody is arguing that Kisai isn't talking out of the wrong end.

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I actually am in agreement with this. I haven't seen another community where people will actively defend someone intentionally playing in a way detrimental to the rest of the party. Of course, there does exist context where that is acceptable (early leveling dungeons and the player in question simply doesn't know), but by SB, you'd think people would have a clue.

Hell, there's probably a pretty big disconnect between the JP and the EN communities on that matter too. The JP players probably just look at us and think we're all idiots, and probably think the developers design content the way they do because they think we keep dropping the ball in more ways than one. Our playerbase as a whole hasn't exactly proven that we're actually ready for the changes that we so desperately crave.

(Also if you're reading this Hyo, I'd like to bring your attention back to the Bard thread in the DPS section and hear your two cents on what's there.)

Also I say I got bored of Dpsing because ppl expect you to have purple/orange logs or they treat you shit, I prefer bard that works on. A priority system and each run is different and you enjoy see your stuff proc. still don’t get how is fun to play if you strictly copy what other tells you to do like a puppet? it’s not your achievement. I personally play only with classes I can have fun with and for gears not logs but if I fancy to play a new class I don’t want to be discriminated because I can’t reach 6K! But if I can reach the minimum DPS required I am not damaging anyone in a weekly clear.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

To be fair, that doesn't mean that the same should be allowed in this game.

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They kind of inadvertently limited the damage by hard endgame being functionally useless. it's more like other game's pvp in that large chunks of the playerbase ignore it, and it's not really required for basic pve progression. So parsing is mostly limited to it, and doesn't really create the arms race it would if it affected much wider pve systems.

The flip side though is casual content is drying up without long term raid progression, and its getting pretty bad. They kind of need to get people in some kind of raiding that last a lot longer than 2 weeks and is a lot more interesting than a daily dungeon or trial fight. I see way too many people in Limsa than in the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Also I say I got bored of Dpsing because ppl expect you to have purple/orange logs or they treat you shit, I prefer bard that works on. A priority system and each run is different and you enjoy see your stuff proc. still don’t get how is fun to play if you strictly copy what other tells you to do like a puppet? it’s not your achievement.

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BRD may be priority based, but it still has basic rules that you always follow - failure to follow them means you're still playing sub-optimally. Like having 95+% DoT uptime, using IJ to both refresh your DoTs and snapshot buffs, and using your songs in the correct order for a boss encounter. Those are all optimal play. If you aren't doing them, you're not playing the job optimally. It doesn't matter that it's proc-based; the skeleton rotation for BRD doesn't change much outside of that.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

You guys are making extreme examples of SMN with 3k DPS that is almost impossible! Or which bard play just with few skills or using heavy shot over and over again? This are cases that you see 1 in 500 players. I repeat my concept: you train yourself a lot and master your class before to join savage content! If you can’t kill the dummy in SSS you don’t sabotage others party but if you reach THE MINIMUM REQUIRED (I think v1 for SMN is 4400ish I presume) If you want properly join she healers and tanks by their parses you can but need to study accurately the parses! You check uptime,death,ppl mistakes,dots uptime,use of roles and AT LAST DMG!
If a PLD doesn 3/4K dps bit doesn’t cover,use divine veil,interventions on Mt,Reprisal when required mean is still a bad tank to me! The DPS itself is secondary to this things I just listed.

Still the problem more than competency is attitude! I mean I made real life examples about healers refusing to heal because want a better parce or DPS making idiotic mistakes..

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That example might not be as extreme as you think there kiddo.

Is it nice when everyone in a group is cordial? Of course! I'd rather spend one run with 'toxic elitists' getting my clears than wiping repeatedly to o5s enrage with some nice people though.

Ideally you get both but at some point competence matters more than attitude - either one can cost you a clear but I think we all know which one does more often than not...

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

But if I can reach the minimum DPS required I am not damaging anyone in a weekly clear.

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At this point I'm going to say learn Japanese and try raiding with the Japanese. Everyone there is expected to pull their weight. You WILL be internally blacklisted and you WILL end up banned from every group there. They will kick you on sight from dungeons, the works. Even from dungeons. The minimum damage required is a raid-wide damage. If you're falling short of your share, that's more for other people to pick up.

When I've raided with my static, the others had to pick up my slack. Now, there are disabilities at play and they may be affecting my personal skill ceiling (which is something this western community are tolerant about for the most part), which does change the situation somewhat. I'm still expected to perform to the best my disabilities allow me to though. Like let's say someone has one arm (extreme example), that's going to seriously impact how they play (and until fairly recently, disabled gamers wasn't a market addressed, but the adaptive controller Microsoft released looks to change that), and seriously lower their skill ceiling. If a group is told about that, they're more than happy to pick up the slack. Because that's a situation out of the player's control. So much for discrimination ey.

If you are punching below your share just because you want to, then yes you are damaging the other 7 players having to pick up your slack. If you're genuinely struggling and you explain this, most people will spare the time to try and support you (so long as you do your best to learn), but if you're doing it just because "toxic elitists", then yes, we are going to be miffed about it, and act "elitist" in your eyes. You reap what you sow. Funnily enough, despite me having a poor performance, I've not had players give me grief for the most part. Why? Because I at least own up to my mistakes, I communicate with them. If I feel I'm playing very poorly, I'll apologise. If my play doesn't improve relatively quickly, I'll look into dropping out so they can find someone better.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

the players are fine. raiders tend to define "detrimental" as stuff that never causes a wipe and only slows things down moderately. The thing where its an issue is genuinely hard content, and the mistakes are expected.

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I would say it depends on the raider. For some yes, they are that high. But I mean for example, I did look at it as "Did we clear? Yes, then we're good" within my static (except where my play was concerned, then I saw it was a case I had to be perfect being a 100th percentile WHM with non-BiS gear, with zero overheal, and essentially having my co-healer just DPS only throughout, aka impossible standards, or else I should be replaced despite being the leader. This is why I don't raid anymore, I was so harsh on myself it damn near killed off my mental health again, something which I thankfully have realised I need professional support for and am reaching out for it. And yes, it was a double standard, I didn't expect anywhere near the same from the rest of my static.), though I know I'm more to the exception.

Most people don't expect perfect play however, even within the raiding scene. Just a relevant level of competence that if everyone was playing at the same level of competence, we'd have enough damage and healing to complete the duty. Exceptions however do apply if there are situations outside of the player's control lowering how well they can play (disability being the example I've referred to in this post, but I'm sure others exist). It's only when you go into speedkills or log runs that it matters more beyond that. Now I'll admit, there will be some players who are that extreme even in casual content, but most don't care, even for dungeons. At most, we'll usually just groan and perhaps make a post on Tales from the Duty Finder afterwards (it's a good place to vent I won't lie, having made use of it myself on a few occasions).

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I actually am in agreement with this. I haven't seen another community where people will actively defend someone intentionally playing in a way detrimental to the rest of the party. Of course, there does exist context where that is acceptable (early leveling dungeons and the player in question simply doesn't know), but by SB, you'd think people would have a clue.

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the players are fine. raiders tend to define "detrimental" as stuff that never causes a wipe and only slows things down moderately. The thing where its an issue is genuinely hard content, and the mistakes are expected. People expect everything to go incredibly smoothly, with little to no failure. Compared to other games, "detrimental" doesn't mean much.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Also I say I got bored of Dpsing because ppl expect you to have purple/orange logs or they treat you shit, I prefer bard that works on. A priority system and each run is different and you enjoy see your stuff proc. still don’t get how is fun to play if you strictly copy what other tells you to do like a puppet? it’s not your achievement. I personally play only with classes I can have fun with and for gears not logs but if I fancy to play a new class I don’t want to be discriminated because I can’t reach 6K! But if I can reach the minimum DPS required I am not damaging anyone in a weekly clear.

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I'm sorry but with that kind of mentality, you've got no business even LOOKING at a raid of ANY kind. People participate in Savage, UCoB, and UWU to be challenged and rewarded for it. The more difficult the challenge, the more practice it requires. Thus, many people choose to turn to online resources to fine tune their rotations, and parsers to optimize their numbers. They enjoy the challenge and actively better themselves to overcome it. 22 pages of empty headed self-entitled blither and you still can't comprehend something so simple.

But you? Content with performing the bare minimum DPS to clear. Can't be bothered to play decently because you don't seem to agree with how the rotations designed by SE are laid out. You sound like the sort of person that wants to be rewarded just for (barely) participating in the same measure as those that actually tried and gave a damn. Honestly, I would count myself unfortunate to encounter you in WANDERER'S PALACE, let alone anything resembling a raid.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

the players are fine. raiders tend to define "detrimental" as stuff that never causes a wipe and only slows things down moderately. The thing where its an issue is genuinely hard content, and the mistakes are expected.

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Nooo, don't you start too. You are on a good roll right now. Don't go back to the darkside, Riyah.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I still don't get this thread. There's a pretty big disconnect between 'not using your skills/using your skills incorrectly' and 'parsers'. Because people who want a high parse will naturally want to do everything correctly anyway. :/

I kind of wonder if OP lost a bet/ran into someone that outright lied about what parsers actually do and asked them to start a crusade on the forums, because said someone had already been banned from here prior.



I actually am in agreement with this. I haven't seen another community where people will actively defend someone intentionally playing in a way detrimental to the rest of the party. Of course, there does exist context where that is acceptable (early leveling dungeons and the player in question simply doesn't know), but by SB, you'd think people would have a clue.

Hell, there's probably a pretty big disconnect between the JP and the EN communities on that matter too. The JP players probably just look at us and think we're all idiots, and probably think the developers design content the way they do because they think we keep dropping the ball in more ways than one. Our playerbase as a whole hasn't exactly proven that we're actually ready for the changes that we so desperately crave.

(Also if you're reading this Hyo, I'd like to bring your attention back to the Bard thread in the DPS section and hear your two cents on what's there.)

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But nobody has ever asked for competence in leveling dungeons. Nobody is going into the first three dungeons and telling them to be the best players in the game. I just expect by the time you've gone through like 3000 quests to get from ARR to SB EXR that you know which end of the sword goes into the bad guy or have asked for advice or looked up a guide. (Nobody asks for help or looks for a guide because the community promotes "PLAY YOUR OWN WAY" in an entirely objective game where there is a guaranteed best way to play your job.)

To which I must ask, people have to go through 1-70 or 60-70 if they use a skip. Are dungeons like Bardam's Mettle and Doma Castle not more difficult than EXR? Most people I talk to think so and if that is -leveling content- then I don't know why I can't expect people to know their rotation and cooldowns to be able to make those dungeons smooth, they've had several hours of exposure to their job at high level to understand their kit or ask for help or look it up, it's just plain disrespectful to other players to be so lazy.

NA/EU is more concerned with character creation than fixing the game's glaring gameplay flaws, so that should say enough about EN vs JP.

Omg you ppl are unbelievable! You take a sentence and use it against others...

I never said I want to create my own rotations and also said that if you can’t have a good DPS YOU DON’T JOIN!!

Following someone theory, only player that spend hours to create rotations are 1st class player and nobody else. All other are just following.

Still there is no difference AT ALL if someone deal 5 or 6k for the outcome of the party !! For BIS the same concept guys, with BIS you can reach 100% but if you don’t but are competent you can still deal a huge DPS abs carry your team, the player matter more than the gear!!

My point is how greedibg for a better log make ppl being selfish and damage other in the group, if you don’t care about logs but okay fir fun and achievements you don’t want other to ruin your fun or setting you back for their personal gain.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

the players are fine. raiders tend to define "detrimental" as stuff that never causes a wipe and only slows things down moderately. The thing where its an issue is genuinely hard content, and the mistakes are expected.

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Detrimental play doesn't always cause a wipe, everything is circumstantial.

I play BRD well enough to get through o5s and o6s if I have exemplary players with me but in a group of players putting out comperable damage to me (so probably not very good dps, I'm no pro BRD) we would likely be hitting enrage.

In both of those situations I would be doing the same dps but in one we clear and one we wipe - would you say my play is only sub-par when it results in a wipe? Do I basically get to ride the coattails of my party because I lucked into a decent PF group? I don't understand how you define detrimental.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Omg you ppl are unbelievable! You take a sentence and use it against others...

I never said I want to create my own rotations and also said that if you can’t have a good DPS YOU DON’T JOIN!!

Following someone theory, only player that spend hours to create rotations are 1st class player and nobody else. All other are just following.

Still there is no difference AT ALL if someone deal 5 or 6k for the outcome of the party !! For BIS the same concept guys, with BIS you can reach 100% but if you don’t but are competent you can still deal a huge DPS abs carry your team, the player matter more than the gear!!

My point is how greedibg for a better log make ppl being selfish and damage other in the group, if you don’t care about logs but okay fir fun and achievements you don’t want other to ruin your fun or setting you back for their personal gain.

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Woah there! Are you saying that 5k and 6k are the same thing? Who taught you math, Common Core? Wew! The guy with the biggest numbers is the guy who is still alive, doing mechanics, and incredibly well-geared. The guy who meets this criteria can carry an inferior (in one of those categories) player. Thus... BiS.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Detrimental play doesn't always cause a wipe, everything is circumstantial.

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...when you need to spend four hours farming a pop item for one chance at savage, and then you have people who wipe you? Detrimental. This? Wow, you lost thirty minutes and need to reform. Did you lose a level because you kept wiping in expert roulette, or does your tank have to quit because he died so much he literally can't afford the repair fees, or you lose millions of gil in consummables?

A lot of this stuff in the end is minor inconveniences compared to what it could be. You have people complaining people actually die in hard content or take 5-7 min longer in a roulette due to low dps. People clear content with 8 tanks on a whim. Raiders literally ad to made their own informal difficulty spike by fflogs rankings, because content in general can be completed relatively quickly, for its difficulty. I kind of wish sometimes they would give you all a taste of what really detrimental consequences would be some time, you'd probably sweat some of what people do here a lot less.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...when you need to spend four hours farming a pop item for one chance at savage, and then you have people who wipe you? Detrimental. This? Wow, you lost thirty minutes and need to reform. Did you lose a level because you kept wiping in expert roulette, or does your tank have to quit because he died so much he literally can't afford the repair fees, or you lose millions of gil in consummables?

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So if the problems caused by someone's poor play aren't literally insurmountable then they don't matter.

Cool, awesome, glad we got any semblence of logic, reason or common sense out the window early on.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

I never said I want to create my own rotations

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You may not have said specifically that you wanted to, but you did say:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

The concept of Logs and BIS bother me and it took from me all the fun from playing DPS, What you top dps do? just blindly follow SOMEONE ELSE ROTATION and do pew pew pew! wow what an achievement do like puppets what other told you to do.
FYI elitist player don't need someone to tell you how to play but the create and optimize their own rotation with their skills.

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The bolded sentence carries the insinuation that you think people can just throw together any ol' rotation. That's not the case. Jobs have an optimal rotation, and anything else is sub-optimal.

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and also said that if you can’t have a good DPS YOU DON’T JOIN!!

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You also said that you only want to do the bare minimum. In Savage, the bare minimum isn't good DPS; it's below average DPS. Average DPS for every job in 360+ is roughly 5,000. If you can't pull that, you aren't performing averagely for content that actually requires above average play. Less than 3,000 DPS on BRD is NOT GOOD DPS. Less than 3,000 DPS on a SMN is NOT GOOD DPS. That is way below average for both jobs.

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Following someone theory, only player that spend hours to create rotations are 1st class player and nobody else. All other are just following.

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Because the rotations the theorycrafters come up with are THE OPTIMAL ROTATION. THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION. Or, if there is, there is only a slight variation. A good example is Miyuri's BRD opener versus the one cited in Aileena's massive BRD guide - Aileena swaps the placement of Empyreal Arrow and Battle Voice, and opts for only 4 Heavy Shots during the Refulgent Arrow fishing window instead of 5. Both openers are still really good, and both are optimal. An opener that deviates from either of those is generally not optimal.

Why would you not do a standard opener - one that has been carefully designed to be as optimal as possible - for a sub-optimal one? People can be "1st class players" and not be the number-crunchers. For you to think otherwise is silly.

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Still there is no difference AT ALL if someone deal 5 or 6k for the outcome of the party !!

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Except there is - higher DPS from everyone in the party means a shorter/faster kill time, which higher DPS on average and better logs for everyone. Plus, if someone is dealing average or above average damage, the rest of the party isn't having to pick up the slack of a sub-optimal player. It's a win-win. The flip-side is someone performing sub-optimally, and the rest of the party has to make up the difference or carry said sub-optimal player to victory. Which, in that case, the sub-optimal player just mooched off of the better players. How is that fair to the better players? Do you think players would be able to clear V5S or any of the current-tier Savage if they were performing at 3k or less?


If you're concerned with people misunderstanding you, try typing more clearly.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Omg you ppl are unbelievable! You take a sentence and use it against others...

blah blah bloo blub

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Lemme shoot some holes in your boat.
First and foremost, not a single word out of you in this entire thread wasn't purely theoretical. You've no actual examples for anything. You're trying to slay a dragon that doesn't exist with a pretend sword.
You're looking at the worst possible scenarios that could potentially occur with a parser in play. Nobody's going to harass you or "treat you like shit" for not pulling purple/orange numbers. Nobody randomly harasses anyone like that, mostly because if they're smart enough to reach that kind of skill level to talk down FROM those shiny numbers, they'd know better than to cross that line every parse user should know not to cross.

At the end of the day, nobody's going to "discriminate against you" for doing 5k DPS or 6k DPS (though the latter will have them respecting you more, BECAUSE you went that extra mile). I'm not going to care enough to insult you for having low DPS, but at the same time, I, like everyone else, reserve the right to opt not to bring you into my weekly clear group if you're going to drastically underperform, hold the group back, not care enough to try, and generally be a liability in both attitude and aptitude.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

So if the problems caused by someone's poor play aren't literally insurmountable then they don't matter.

Cool, awesome, glad we got any semblence of logic, reason or common sense out the window early on.

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What problems? You fail a run 8 minutes in, a run that doesn't have any prerequisites or any real cost to failing. They fail three times, oh well, disband, try again. People get their clears of content within weeks, to the point they are complaining about not having anything to do and logging from the game till the next patch. The people complain about people ranking low on essentially how fast you can clear (DPS rankings.)

I had more consequences from poor play leveling in ffxi at 20 than there are in this game. Its something to keep in mind with how much people compain about things here. It probably took longer to camp o kotes, a level 35 bis gear for mnk and nin, than it takes many savage raiders to complete an entire tier. I mean, we should be thankful a lot more the game is so friendly, and you have a wide skill band that you can still clear things, not endlessly griping about carries and where you parse.

Ms HYO again and others you change the meaning of what I say!

I would never say that I want to do the bare minimum I said that there a minimum DPS required set by THE GAME. If you match it then you are free to join a group, if you can exceed it good for you, still as I said I got bored of DPSing lately so It’s not really my case...

I meant that between deal 5500,5800 or 6000k there is not a great difference and WEEKLY CLEARVARE NOT THE PLACE TO PUSH OVER YOUR LIMITS. People who want to push and think about their own parse can do it with LOGS RUN groups. Normal ppl want to have fun with nice ppl and Team players, getting new gear in weekly clears.

Underperforming is bad of course but still you ppl are CHANGING TOPIC!! We talk about discrimination of toxic players againist others with thei attitude mate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Ms HYO again and others you change the meaning of what I say!

I would never say that I want to do the bare minimum I said that there a minimum DPS required set by THE GAME. If you match it then you are free to join a group, if you can exceed it good for you, still as I said I got bored of DPSing lately so It’s not really my case...

I meant that between deal 5500,5800 or 6000k there is not a great difference and WEEKLY CLEARVARE NOT THE PLACE TO PUSH OVER YOUR LIMITS. People who want to push and think about their own parse can do it with LOGS RUN groups. Normal ppl want to have fun with nice ppl and Team players, getting new gear in weekly clears.

Underperforming is bad of course but still you ppl are CHANGING TOPIC!! We talk about discrimination of toxic players againist others with thei attitude mate

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The game didn't set anything and the game isn't grouping with you, the players set the minimum DPS.


Also, if 4 dps are doing 5.5k instead of 6k that means you've lost a potential 2k DPS. That's a lotta damage!

There is no such thing as toxic players discriminating against others, but if you want to start it - you're the first one I've met who is discriminating against others with their attitude.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Ms HYO again and others you change the meaning of what I say!

I would never say that I want to do the bare minimum I said that there a minimum DPS required set by THE GAME. If you match it then you are free to join a group, if you can exceed it good for you, still as I said I got bored of DPSing lately so It’s not really my case...

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The average DPS for a 360+ DPS is, again, roughly 5,000. Can you reach that? If yes, then you have reached the requirement for Savage. If no, then you have not. Go practice more, or don't do the content.

Since you like to play healers, most groups are going to want healers with near 100% uptime - Always Be Casting. Be it heals or DPS spells. Don't stand around idle; speaking personally, nothing grinds my gears more than healers who stand around and only press 1 button every 30 seconds. Everyone else is expected to be pressing buttons 100% of the time; healers are no exception. I personally don't see how healers do it, to be honest. I'd be bored out of my mind.

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I meant that between deal 5500,5800 or 6000k there is not a great difference and WEEKLY CLEARVARE NOT THE PLACE TO PUSH OVER YOUR LIMITS. People who want to push and think about their own parse can do it with LOGS RUN groups. Normal ppl want to have fun with nice ppl and Team players, getting new gear in weekly clears.

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"Normal people" doing their weeklies also don't want to have to deal with sub-3k DPS. I'll just repeat my advice to you earlier in the thread - if you don't want to deal with the box of chocolates that is PF, then make your own parties with people you know. Or make a "bare minimum DPS required" party for Savage, and have all the fun you want in there. But don't join other parties that may be expecting AVERAGE play, and then complain when they boot you for not performing on an AVERAGE level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Underperforming is bad of course but still you ppl are CHANGING TOPIC!! We talk about discrimination of toxic players againist others with thei attitude mate

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You changed your own topic in your initial post. Or should we all forget how you specifically mentioned NINs not using Shadewalker and tanks forgetting to use their CDs. None of those had anything to do with ...whatever it was you thought you were saying. Nobody is changing the meaning of what you were saying. You aren't really leaving room for interpretation. You are contradicting yourself. You complain about players who want to push themselves into the orange/purple tier, then complain about the typical dumb things that happen in pugs. Who isn't to say that normal people and team players don't want to push themselves either. This little narrative or whatever you're trying to sell us, it is total BS. Maybe if you hadn't started insulting everyone who parses and/or responded to you, your posts might not have been subject to ridicule.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Now...apologies in advance to Moro, I don't mean to butt into your conversation, but Riyah...I'm on ya ass next. Let's see...

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

What problems? You fail a run 8 minutes in, a run that doesn't have any prerequisites or any real cost to failing. They fail three times, oh well, disband, try again. People get their clears of content within weeks, to the point they are complaining about not having anything to do and logging from the game till the next patch. The people complain about people ranking low on essentially how fast you can clear (DPS rankings.)

I had more consequences from poor play leveling in ffxi at 20 than there are in this game. Its something to keep in mind with how much people compain about things here. It probably took longer to camp o kotes, a level 35 bis gear for mnk and nin, than it takes many savage raiders to complete an entire tier. I mean, we should be thankful a lot more the game is so friendly, and you have a wide skill band that you can still clear things, not endlessly griping about carries and where you parse.

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This is not FFXI. I know you miss those glory days - but this isn't FFXI, so quit comparing things from XI to XIV. We get it, you don't like raiders, and you don't like the raiding community. Yet you seem to go out of your way to nag to the raiders about raiders. If you miss FFXI that badly, why are you here? Seems like an awful lot of energy - I don't waste that kind of energy on people I actually hate.

You don't even raid. Why do you care? It's not affecting what you do in-game, like, at all. All these arguments that you keep having with raiders, it feels like a raider did something to you personally and now you're taking it out on the raiding community. All the things you complain about happening...it's a rarity.

Aaaah so tired to repeat the same concept... I already clarified that to play savage REQUIRES SKILLS and COMPETENCE! If you deal only 3K DPS are damaging your team ok, but DPS checks are not so strict!!

So, actually someone of you is saying that if you can’t deal over 5K you can’t play?? That is you don’t reach 6K you suck?? OMG you guys are out of your mind and that is pure discrimination...

You can’t pretend all the ffxiv player reach that level or only few player will play...

You can’t cheat easly O5S-O8s with 4 DPSs dealing an AVERAGE of 5k... average mean 1 may deal 4.5 and someone else 5.5 K doesn’t matter is a teamwork!! Always doing my weekly with nobody dealing crazy damages

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Aaaah so tired to repeat the same concept... I already clarified that to play savage REQUIRES SKILLS and COMPETENCE! If you deal only 3K DPS are damaging your team ok, but DPS checks are not so strict!!

So, actually someone of you is saying that if you can’t deal over 5K you can’t play?? That is you don’t reach 6K you suck?? OMG you guys are out of your mind and that is pure discrimination...

You can’t pretend all the ffxiv player reach that level or only few player will play...

You can’t cheat easly O5S-O8s with 4 DPSs dealing an AVERAGE of 5k... average mean 1 may deal 4.5 and someone else 5.5 K doesn’t matter is a teamwork!! Always doing my weekly with nobody dealing crazy damages

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Mad because bad.

All XIV players will reach that level or they can play the other 99% of the game that can be done with one hand in your pants called EXR and Normal Raids.

A team is like a chain and a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Maybe your weeklies just have bad DPS then? Or maybe... you're the bad DPS?

Good DPS can cheese Phantom Train by having one player go in and kill the ghost, giving way more uptime after the train car segment, this results in a faster clear. Not that you would know.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

FYI elitist player don't need someone to tell you how to play but the create and optimize their own rotation with their skills.

Still guy you are outside of topic, the point still is why discriminate ppl if they dont have purple/orange logs on PF? if the damage is SUFFICIENT everybody can play, develop new classes without you judging them!!! if you hit the grey line you dont damage anyone is a matter of fact but toxic ppl do for entires parties!!



Anyway even if many of you don’t agree with me some other ppl do !! if you see online on any forum about ffxiv there are many ppl defining parses and LOGs as CANCERS so I am not alone guys!!

Anyway I asked a question few times but nobody got attributes enough to reply to that: If you have orange logs do you think to be a better player than ppl who don’t? if the answer is yes means you are DISCRIMINATING!
Nobody will reply because you know that by replying: Yes I am better! you would give me automatically right.
Still I think logs can classify DPSs by their results but not healers or tanks lol

And if I said someone got the brain of a cow, I didn’t do names and I won’t so why you feel offended if you are not a cow ?!

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You know whats funny? You are doing exactly what you don't like, because you are discriminating good players by calling them toxic, elitist or you try to generalize all of them. Good players (just as any player really) don't have the same attitude.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

I meant that between deal 5500,5800 or 6000k there is not a great difference and WEEKLY CLEARVARE NOT THE PLACE TO PUSH OVER YOUR LIMITS. People who want to push and think about their own parse can do it with LOGS RUN groups. Normal ppl want to have fun with nice ppl and Team players, getting new gear in weekly clears.

Underperforming is bad of course but still you ppl are CHANGING TOPIC!! We talk about discrimination of toxic players againist others with thei attitude mate

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Since "normal people" want to have fun and getting gear in weeklys, do you think people wanting everyone (including themselves) to perform, "unormal"? Look, i get it. I also don't like people insulting or receiving toxic comments, but that goes both ways. Yesterday for example, we wiped in A5 normal and i asked politely, if i should explain the fight and the first comment was something like "oh yes great leader teach us". Was that necessary of the person from your point of view? The point is discrimination, insults and so on, are used from a small part in the community and you can't generalize them. I have seen just as many mentors or newbies, good players or bad players insulting or discriminating others.

Quote:

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Normal ppl want to have fun with nice ppl and Team players, getting new gear in weekly clears.

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Is someone who isn't trying suddenly a team players? Look, the pf is an feature to search for people with the same skill or goal. Nobody can force someone else to play with them. Of course discrimation is always bad. But you are trying to do just that, with comments like "people wo want to push their dps can do it with Log runs". Well who are you to tell someone else to only go into log groups and what is the definition of fun anyway? Some people have fun with crafting, others just want to do content with fc members and others want to perform well, and so on. There are many different players in this game and i prefer to respect everyone :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

You know whats funny? You are doing exactly what you don't like, because you are discriminating good players by calling them toxic, elitist or you try to generalize all of them. Good players (just as any player really) don't have the same attitude.


Since "normal people" want to have fun and getting gear in weeklys, do you think people wanting everyone (including themselves) to perform, "unormal"? Look, i get it. I also don't like people insulting or receiving toxic comments, but that goes both ways. Yesterday for example, we wiped in A5 normal and i asked politely, if i should explain the fight and the first comment was something like "oh yes great leader teach us". Was that necessary of the person from your point of view? The point is discrimination, insults and so on, are used from a small part in the community and you can't generalize them. I have seen just as many mentors or newbies, good players or bad players insulting or discriminating others.

Is someone who isn't trying suddenly a team players? Look, the pf is an feature to search for people with the same skill or goal. Nobody can force someone else to play with them. Of course discrimation is always bad. But you are trying to do just that, with comments like "people wo want to push their dps can do it with Log runs". Well who are you to tell someone else to only go into log groups and what is the definition of fun anyway? Some people have fun with crafting, others just want to do content with fc members and others want to perform well, and so on. There are many different players in this game and i prefer to respect everyone :)

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In fact you use Pf to look ppl that pursue your same goals, if you want a weekly clear is nothing related to logs at all. If ppl want to do logs And parse should do it exclusively in LOGS RUN! I would never join because I don’t have interest like for example I won’t do crafters anymore because I find it depressing to death lol

Ppl here are saying absurd things like if you don’t have AT LEAST 5k you shouldn’t play because is bad performing and that is a horrible thing to say, give me shivers !! Who says that? Who allow you to say who plays and who not?

And I don’t know the situation outside Chaos but Average so the majority of DPS is below 5k (5.something for BLM,SMN,SAM) only few deal more abs 1 in 100 reach over 6k

If someone says: I don’t want to play with you if you don’t deal More than 5k mean you are discriminating and aim to restrict savage content accessibility to others!

I just don't understand why people don't want to at least put the same general amount of effort into everything they do, from standard dungeons to raiding. I mean, if you're feeling tired or want to watch something on Netflix, maybe it's not a good idea to queue for anything at all. I suppose my mentality might be a bit different as a DPS player though, because if I sit in a roulette queue for 20 minutes, you can bet my arse that I'll be trying my hardest (though not as far as using food and potions outside of raid) just to show respect for the tanks and healers coming with me. Consider that SE did a census at the start of Stormblood and found that the population of tanks was actually higher than healers, but the general community believes otherwise. Why do you think that is? It would seem that a significant portion of established tanks have a circle of friends for, well, everything.

I mean, if you're legitimately trying your best, then people won't have a problem with that. If someone wants to help by giving advice, let them. But it seems that a lot of times, people for some weird reason take any form of advice as a personal attack, and you get snapped back with things like 'YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB'. This is something I've noticed a lot in this particular community more than any other, and it boggles the mind. There's a reason why that particular phrase is an actual meme in this community.

What you get from the community is what you invest in it. For every stereotypical toxic raider you run into, there's probably many more that just run all over the place without saying a word, and nobody would guess that they were raiders unless someone does a gear inspection out of nowhere. This is even more true when considering how content is designed in this game - without raiding, there's even less to do once everything else is done. Though I will typically raise my voice if I see someone getting attacked by someone who isn't blameless either - usually in defense of people actually doing lower DPS. Context is always important to consider.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

In fact you use Pf to look ppl that pursue your same goals, if you want a weekly clear is nothing related to logs at all. If ppl want to do logs And parse should do it exclusively in LOGS RUN! I would never join because I don’t have interest like for example I won’t do crafters anymore because I find it depressing to death lol

Ppl here are saying absurd things like if you don’t have AT LEAST 5k you shouldn’t play because is bad performing and that is a horrible thing to say, give me shivers !! Who says that? Who allow you to say who plays and who not?

And I don’t know the situation outside Chaos but Average so the majority of DPS is below 5k (5.something for BLM,SMN,SAM) only few deal more abs 1 in 100 reach over 6k

If someone says: I don’t want to play with you if you don’t deal More than 5k mean you are discriminating and aim to restrict savage content accessibility to others!

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I would like to ask though. Has anyone actually ever said that in your general vicinity? Has anyone actually even said that in this thread?

I've bounced through a lot of raid content in public parties as of late, and not once have I ever seen anything remotely close to what you describe. I feel like a lot of these parser debates mainly consist of building strawmans, otherwise I'd be seeing a lot more screenshots of actual abuse.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

..

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If you attempt to do Savage during the first few months of release (Meaning everyone is iL350). The dps check will not be easy to meet with underperforming players. The reason you are able to clear your weekly Savage now is because higher item-level is carrying bad players.

4k~5k are numbers that people have been dealing with iL350 gear. So naturally, when seeing someone with higher item-level dealing the same numbers or less, you automatically know that they are bad.

No one is saying bad players should not attempt Savage. That is how I learned to become a better player myself. I realized that my numbers were low for my item-level and asked someone with parse to keep an eye on my dps while I try new rotations, up-time, etc.. I was playing on ps4 back then.

What I personally don't like is that most players who are underperforming have no idea about how bad they are!
You say the purpose of the game is to have fun. Do you think players are having fun when they keep wiping over and over because of a bad player?
If a player does not know how bad they are, how will they get better?
Why would a bad player join content that was meant for people who meet certain requirements?

Also, I don't think people will kick underperforming players if the party is clearing content. BUT if they keep hitting enrage, the bad players will be the first ones to get kicked.

What I find ridiculous? I am a raider that support: team work,respect, a friendly and positive environment for EVERYONE! A community where nobody gets classified, insulted or diminished for the stupid colour of their log. RESULT: I get demonised and put on a stake!! Many ppl are closed minded and don’t understand that everybody has different way to do and objectives!! I DONT CARE ABOUT LOGS AND BIS either so what’s wrong with that? Other ppl may agree with me or not but you are nobody to judge. I listen others opinion but I can’t care less

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

What I find ridiculous? I am a raider that support: team work,respect, a friendly and positive environment for EVERYONE! A community where nobody gets classified, insulted or diminished for the stupid colour of their log. RESULT: I get demonised and put on a stake!! Many ppl are closed minded and don’t understand that everybody has different way to do and objectives!! I DONT CARE ABOUT LOGS AND BIS either so what’s wrong with that? Other ppl may agree with me or not but you are nobody to judge. I listen others opinion but I can’t care less

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Looks like you have to be a martyr for your beliefs, I thought you were willing to fight for them? So much for that.

You come in here and make broad generalizations, spread lies, talk garbage, and miss the point of playing at a high level and then get mad every time someone informs you how narrow-minded you are. I get it, you don't care about logs because your logs are terrible and your play style is awful. I know why you stopped playing DPS, because back in June - you had a 3k SMN parse and you managed to summon Demi-Bahamut a grand total of two times.

Yes, I am judging you and I will continue to judge you for making this stupid topic that added nothing but amusement to my day.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

What I find ridiculous? I am a raider that support: team work,respect, a friendly and positive environment for EVERYONE! A community where nobody gets classified, insulted or diminished for the stupid colour of their log. RESULT: I get demonised and put on a stake!! Many ppl are closed minded and don’t understand that everybody has different way to do and objectives!! I DONT CARE ABOUT LOGS AND BIS either so what’s wrong with that? Other ppl may agree with me or not but you are nobody to judge. I listen others opinion but I can’t care less

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Except you're actively fighting people and gaslighting them for not agreeing with you. While reading through this thread as the day went on, you've been the only one whose taken civil, if sternly worded feedback and blown it greatly out of proportion. All because people dared not to agree with you, which makes your claim about supporting everyone and being willing to listen to other people's opinions suspect.