Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuru
A simple diagram that explains it graphically might be nice. I kinda threw this together but its not the best.
http://i56.tinypic.com/15h0jt1.png
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04-04-2011, 10:41 AMCairdeas
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04-04-2011, 11:03 AMNuru
I could probably draw up a character in AF armor, and have that character equipped with the different weapons and depict which abilities that Job/Class would support. ^^
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04-05-2011, 01:19 AMAnathiel
Would anybody be willing to make a diagram that would illustrate these idea's? I saw one earlier and I think I saved it to my PC but it waas just for the ff:t style way of unlocking jobs.
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04-05-2011, 01:26 AMMalakhim
See Cairdeas' last post and that might be the one you're talking about.
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04-05-2011, 01:28 AMAnathielNo that's not it, it was really in depth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakhim
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04-05-2011, 01:34 AMMalakhimOh... Then I have no idea. >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
At any rate, I hope that whatever Matsui and his team are working on resembles this. The other option is fine too, but I feel that this is probably the option that does the least damage to the armory system as it is.
Although it'd be interesting if you'd have to unlock titles once and be able to use them in every "compatible" class afterwards. I.E. Get to rank x, go on a quest and unlock a title like Knight, Magus, or Black Belt that could be used in various classes like GLD/LNC, CON/THM or Pugilist respectively. -
04-05-2011, 02:00 AMCairdeasI'd prefer if they didn't lock specific jobs from specific classes at all. I want it to be as open as possible so that people can experiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakhim
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04-05-2011, 03:59 AMNuruThat was Kurikokaze's Class system idea. Its the other [dev1033] Thread here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
EDIT: @ Cairdeas: Thats what i was thinking about. Drawing a Red Mage using different weapons and see what roles they could pull off in parties. -
04-05-2011, 04:06 AMAnathielWell to be honest this idea also incorporates elements of kuro's idea but I feel this one is more original and indepth. Not to mention it allows more variety of play. When I get home from work I will try to find the diagram, if its not good I will make one. I think the best way to illustraate it will be by using a type of "branch" diagram.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuru
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04-05-2011, 04:34 AMNuruYeah, not too many people would go to this thread and read all of the OP's posts (heaven forbid its a damn forum).Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
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04-05-2011, 05:57 AMnorthernskyYeah I think Carpe's system offers more flexibility and variety but I like the mechanics proposed by Kuro. Actually it could be a way to implement Carpe's system, i-e your have your job on top on your base class and you advance through this job via a talent tree or grid or whatever (or it could be like the merit system in XI, which was a kind of grid system but without the grid lol, I think the grid adds an interesting visual aspect and increases the sense of accomplishment)Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
For each job you could have several tiers of grids (tied to base class rank) and within each tier you could accumulate points to unlock say max 1/2 or 2/3 of the abilities/traits available (to maintain the customization aspect so a GLA/ Red mage is not exactly the same as another GLA/ Red Mage because they did not spend their points in the same slots). -
04-05-2011, 06:02 AMAnathielI 100% agree with you, and it is a really good idea. I really think a visual representation of the grid tier system is needed, makes the game more modern and you're right gives you a sense of accomplishment. The only problem I have is that when we all come to an agreement like this the thread doesn't get any new input and the thread stagnates XD.Quote:
Originally Posted by northernsky
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04-05-2011, 06:20 AMCairdeas
The problem I have with Kuro's Idea is it seems to want to lock certain "Tree Paths" to certain weapons only. IE. Only Gladiator can be Paladin or Dark Knight. And Paladin and Dark Knight can not be Lancers, or Pugilists, or Archers, or Marauders.
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04-05-2011, 07:45 AMCarpe
Thanks for posting and keeping the thread healthy everyone! Sorry I haven't posted in a while, been really busy and *cough* addicted to gaming *cough*, but I was thinking of trying to go back and rewrite some of the OP trying to go into more detail and incorporate some of the implementation ideas that people have been talking about and to make it all easier to read.
Yah I think the thread title sounds like a journal article/thesis paper, probably should have used something simpler. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Nuru
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04-05-2011, 08:41 AMnorthernskyI agree with this but just because a guy came up with something does not mean that the rules are definitive, there is plenty of room to expand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
Right now Carpe has a very good concept but the mechanics are not totally clear, and I think this is something that remains to be discussed in this thread. -
04-05-2011, 08:45 AMnorthernskyI think you should try to keep it as minimal as possible and it would be a good idea to add schematics if someone is willing to contribute (Cairdeas came up with something good but it may still be optimized in my opinion)Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe
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04-05-2011, 09:05 AMAnathielDo you mean that the mechanics aren't clear in the OP? Or does the overall idea have some missing mechanics? I thought it was very well thought out. Earlier someone brought up how stats and grouping might have to happen and I personally felt that was the only thing missing from the OPQuote:
Originally Posted by northernsky
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04-05-2011, 09:08 AMAnathielRight, I have to agree with you here, I'm going to go through his thread again but overall his is a sound idea but not at all original. And I feel if you did it that way you would hear so much antiWoW/proWoW nerd rage it would be unbearableQuote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
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04-05-2011, 09:52 AMMalakhimThe other idea is essentially Final Fantasy Tactics mixed with Final Fantasy XI, which is kinda stale in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
Titles are pretty fresh from my perspective. Trick is how would they go about adding new classes/titles in the future? Would they stick to adding just new classes or new specializations or both? -
04-05-2011, 09:57 AMAnathielDefinitely gonna be both, the template for 3 jobs that were data mined but weren't released are there, fencer, musketeer, and I believe it was called enforcer. Fencer dual wield maybe definitely could be used to unlock thief right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakhim
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04-05-2011, 10:07 AMMalakhimI don't remember fencer having dual-wield... Oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
What I'm worried about though is that if they determine that it's easier just to add another class as opposed to creating new abilities for new specializations as well as creating the new abilities for classes, they might opt for the former. -
04-05-2011, 10:13 AMAnathielWell, if the classes and titles they release were balanced and didn't need much tweaking, I don't see why they wouldn't opt for creating new classes. I'm sure they would create more abilities to play with but probably at a much slower rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakhim
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04-05-2011, 10:15 AMCairdeas
They'd implement the new Weapon/Class then from it have skills that are prime for the Job they want to implement.
For instance if they wanted to implement the Blue Mage Job. They could implement the Mimic Weapon Class (Sling Shot) idea that I have that uses a mix of blue magic, and copying already used abilities and stats on the field and sharing them. From it you could have the jobs Blue Mage, more skills for Red Mage, more skills for White and Black Mage, and maybe even Geomancer. -
04-05-2011, 10:44 AMBearious
Awesome ideas and well written.
Like this is you think they should hire this guy to help redesign the classes lol. -
04-05-2011, 01:02 PMKirith
The idea is simple and effective, and although there are some uncertainties, like the way you obtain "title" skills, i believe it's an enormous step in the right direction.
Now, if only SE paid any attention to this... -
04-05-2011, 02:22 PMCairdeas
The problem with trying to dictate the way you earn them is no matter what we say SE will implement it their own way.
Theres a few suggested ways.
1. the XI route. White Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage, Warrior (Fighter), Monk, Thief all come automatically when you get the title system unlocked. Then after you get to a certain level above that point you can go on a quest to unlock more jobs.
2. The FFT Route. the 6 Core jobs are unlocked when you unlock the job title system. Then after advancing so far in each of the core jobs you unlock other jobs.
3. The FF3 Route. A quest story at level 20ish unlocks the job title system. You get the 6 core jobs. Then all the other jobs are unlocked in waves of 6 new jobs with more advanced storylines at higher and higher ranks. -
04-05-2011, 04:37 PMNephera
FFT was a good game.
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04-05-2011, 10:20 PMnorthernskyThe general title concept is very clear and well thought, very simple, and complement well the current armory system. As you pointed out, on this topic, I think pretty much everyone agrees and the thread stagnates. That was my initial point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
Sorry for my ''Frenglish''... Maybe ''mechanics'' was not the best word to use but yes, I think that there have been several ideas about the ways to unlock titles and earn new stats and abilities but it is still not well defined and optimized yet. That's why I said that maybe this is the part that remains to be discussed more in depth in this thread. However as some others said it's not our job to determine the way the system could work, even though it's fair to come up with suggestions. -
04-05-2011, 11:27 PMAnathielWell what things do you personally feel need further clarification? I'm not being mean, I'm just being serious in asking you so we can figure this out. I really don't want to come this far into the thread to start hearing "its the devs job" lol. The more we can come up with as a community means the more likely the devs will consider our ideasQuote:
Originally Posted by northernsky
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04-06-2011, 01:26 AMnorthernskyNo problem, asking direct questions is not being mean at all, it's the most efficient way to move on in a discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
It's not a matter of clarity. It seems that there are many ways to implement this system and to unlock and build your job, as suggested by the OP and some other contributors. I think the point is not that it needs further clarification, but rather, that there are several possibilities with various strengths and weaknesses.
To use your expression, I feel that as a community, we still have not identified one single optimal way to allow progression in the job system, which does not mean that the ideas discussed here are not good.
Various ideas have been brought up, i-e FF3, FFT, FFXI ways to unlock jobs, FFX or XII grid system to unlock stats bonuses and abilities, talent tree, FFXI merit-like system etc. I certainly have missed some suggestions.
What do you think is the best? Is there a way to combine the best ideas from these systems?
That's what I meant in my previous posts, it was not intended as a critique toward the OP's suggestions or this thread evolution, but rather, I wanted to express what in my mind remains to be discussed more in depth. -
04-06-2011, 01:30 AMCairdeas
The problem with a lot of the other system proposed I've mentioned before. They try and limit progress from a certain point and close down the open-ness of both the Armoury System and the job system. Doing things like limiting Paladin to Gladiator.
When Paladin should be able to be a Lancer, Con, Thaum, or any other weapon class.
I can't support any system that says "You can only be a black mage if you level thaum" that doesn't make sense. The system that is implemented needs to be open and only the player should force limitations on themselves. -
04-06-2011, 01:38 AMnorthernskyWere you replying to me? Because I don't see a problem with using others system mechanics and applying it to the title system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
If, for example, Dragoon has its own grid, you work on that grid which is superimposed to your basic weapon class, whatever it is. I don't care if someone somewhere said that only 2 advanced paths are possible for a given base weapon class. If that guy has good ideas just take what you like from it and leave the rest. -
04-06-2011, 01:47 AMCairdeasQuote:
Originally Posted by northernsky
No I agree. But the moment I see someone say "Only these jobs can use these classes" I tend to block all their ideas out so I guess I'm trying to say, if anyone goes out to try and pull ideas from other sources it probably shouldn't be me. -
04-06-2011, 01:54 AMAnathiel
Honestly I thought implementation was covered in OP. Its a ff:t-esque way of unlocking. You want to unlock dark knight you level the base weapon specializations to obtain certain spells and abilities. Once the title is unlocked you equip it as your ttitle starting at the lowest tier, still leveling your chosen weapon spec but at the same time the exp counts towards your title gaining tiers, when your title does advance to the next tier you do (this is just me, not sure if its in the OP) a type of class quest when the quest is over you advance to the next tier and will be able to chose your title bonuses using a sphere grid type system of progression that will allow you to customize your titles play style (paladin for instance being DD, tanking, buffing/healing...just an example). Now as for grouping and stat distribution you would group based on your weapon spec but gain small stat bonuses from your title based on your weapon spec. The combinations are very varied so please go back earlier in the thread to find examples.
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04-06-2011, 01:55 AMMalakhimOr in the case of FFXI, every other player in the game besides the player in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
:rimshot: -
04-06-2011, 03:14 AMAnathielFound it, but to expand on it I think the stat bonuses should be much much smaller when you first unlock your title and gain more points as you reach the next tier of your title. Drk only giving 1 point str 1 point vit per gld rank as a novice drk but as a master drk you get 5 str 4 vit 3 dex per rank you see?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiku
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04-06-2011, 06:13 AMAnathiel
Now, the only problem I see with any type of implementation is that it basically forces you to get some type of advanced job because of stat bonuses and ability bonuses. Whether or not this is a good thing should be left to the players. Really the only way I see it working like that though is to release more titles or to rename the current weapon specializations (from gladiator to sword user for example) only because people will cry that the job they leveled to 50 is now obsolete and besides I had a lot of friends in ff:xi that leveled their base job to 75 and I feel it would be unfair to people that didn't really like the advance jobs to begin with. I need more ideas on how to fix that. The easies solution would be to release more titles that aren't drk or pld and would play to the strengths the base weapon specialkzations already have,, perhaps we could call this class onion knight (or something else that sounds more hardcore xD) for DoW and red mage for DoM (just rough examples mind you). Those would be the two classes that are basically freely given so those who want to play their base class to max won't miss out on the stat bonuses given by the other advance jobs.
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04-06-2011, 06:15 AMNuruLike how FFXI forced you to get a subjob?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
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04-06-2011, 06:23 AMAnathielYeah...good point, but the advance jobs that we're all talking about putting in, I think we would need a more comprehensive list with some good examples of the way the armory system could be used to augment them. Warrior, monk, thief, ranger, dark knight, paladin, ranger, dragoon, samurai, ninja, black mage, white mage, red mage, summoner, beast master.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuru
You'll notice I put summoner and beast master last because I don't think they'll be implemented for quite some while. Now, we've put a lot of thought into drk, pld, rdm, and blm, but what about warrior and monk? To unlock them using the system we discussed earlier would mean they would have to unlock abilities correct? But which abilities could they use to unlock the classes and still be different to the abilities those jobs could unlock on their own is the question. Warrior is a mix of gladiator and marauder, which in my mind would be one of the hardest classes to implement because really what could you give them that marauder and gladiator don't already have? These are the hardball questions that need to be asked before we could really demand anything from the dev team asfar as answers go -
04-06-2011, 06:29 AMnorthernskyYes I remember this post, thanks. So it's a nice way to allocate stats and there are some other posts on traits, abilities gained with the progression of the title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
The only question I had at the time with this post and it's still not clear to me is whether the poster wanted a) that those stats allocations are permanent for the base weapon class (i-e gaining 1 rank on GLA as a DRK would permanently add 4STR, 1DEX and 3VIT to your GLA, think of the esper bonus system in FFVI), or b)if the stats per rank of a basic weapon class are automatically reallocated when you switch title. In any case, what happens to the stats of your basic weapon class when you have no title equipped?
There are potential balance problems with either possibility. In case (a), permanently allocating stats would greatly alter the possibilities in a system where in theory you play only 1 character. Also, you need to stop everything you do so you don't waste levels with lower bonuses in stats? What about the current rank50?In case (b), several questions remain, i-e, say you can unlock titles at rank 30. But when you have it, can you equip a title on your rank 10 THM? If so, how will it affect your THM stats? Or do you have to wait to rank 30 to equip a title? This also takes its importance considering point (a)
You see, there are several good propositions but I don't think that they all have been optimized. I would like this proposition you cited, but I would prefer more customization by either allocating myself a reduced (compared to now) amount of stat points depending on the way I want to play, or to unlock bonuses in a grid system (HP+3%, STR+2, VIT+4, for example; a PLD grid would have higher occurrence of HP+, enmity+ and VIT+ slots compared to DRK which would have many ATT+ and STR+ slots to unlock so you would have to choose where you want to allocate your points).
This is an example to illustrate that even though many suggestions are in the thread, I think that there still are several possibilities.
That being said I realize that just because I personally am not fully satisfied with the current propositions on how to allocate abilities, traits and stats does not mean that the OP's suggestion is incomplete.