The WOL and Mass Murder

The reason why it will never do that is to give everyone who plays the game room to RP how their own WoL reacts to things. You do have people who don't like the DRK quests because their own WoL would never react that way to what's going on. The MSQ tends to leave a lot of space for people to characterize their PC the way they want to. Some people really like that as their character feels like their character as opposed to having everything be dictated to them by the game. Other people don't like it as the MSQ has very little specified fallout for their character.

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Originally Posted by SkyEdge1

Thats almost true from my point of view. However the majority of those interactions were either passive (No we don't want to change) Or they are positive in our favor. My ideal situations is more along the lines of, we are in a completely hostile to us area. For example if the current story revelations about the 2 factions within Garlemald continues to the point where we need to side with one over the other. Id want us to be on the side of trying to save people who, from their perspective, see us as only a dangerous terrorist. Imagine if you will events in the story where you as a character are unable to save someone, not because of a monster, but simply because that person see's you only as the monster. Entering cities where Anti-WoL sentiment is at the forefront and all the while, even though you are being told that what you are doing is correct you see nothing but spite and animosity from those you are trying to change. Heavensward almost went full on in this route after the fall of the archbishop, Id want a similar take but taken to an extreme. Where we as a character and player are forced to see ourselves from the point of view of our enemies. I know that as a whole this is a pretty PG game but honestly having the absolute complexity of war thrown into our faces would be a very nice change. Stormblood wasn't a story about war imo, it was a story of the heroes liberating their woe-begotten allies. War has 2 sides and we only really ever see Garleans from the PoV of their military or their ex-patriots. Can you imagine what a normal citizen would think if they heard stories of a nigh unstoppable soldier tromping around their territory murdering their countrymen en mass? Where even their vaunted Legates' are powerless before the might of this monstrous weapon wielding an otherworldly power? I'll bet the WoL and scions have never really been faced with someone who was terrified of them to that degree

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We've already gotten that though. The WoL was by no means popular when first going into Ishgard, although that was a result of Ishgard's insular, inward looking society than anything related to the WoL's legacy. And over time we were able to convince a hostile, war-weary populace to come to some kind of satisfying conclusion.

Going into Garlemald the exact same way would be pretty boring, honestly...and a little weird if it's not given proper treatment. I'd hate to be the imperial propagandist who has to put a negative spin on the "eikon slayer", since slaying eikons is exactly what the Empire is all about. Of course you could go with the "they've been killing all of our brave soldiers on the front lines!", but in Garlemald proper that might not hold up too much, since the majority of the Empire's armies are conscripted from non-Garlean nations, so most people living in the Imperial capital simply aren't going to be affected directly.

Of course we do get that point of view on the Prima Vista, since i remember one of the NPCs specifically saying they're reluctant to accept help from someone that's killed so many imperial soldiers, but they're willing to give the WoL the benefit of the doubt.

Going into yet another strange, unfamiliar land with an overly hostile population, without the backing of the Alliance or Scions is exactly how Heavensward began, and unless they give some kind of spin or different direction with it, I don't really think it's going to work out. Not to say that the better idea would be to have everyone in Garlemald see the WoL as a savior or look at them in any positive light.

I'd think it be far more interesting if the WoL stumbles into a society that's already quite fragmented despite the surface level order and seeming normalcy. The crew on the Prima Vista say pretty explicitly that Garleans feel like they're living under a shadow and are uncertain of their future, and for good reason: for a people that were so afraid of being bullied by everyone outside their borders, they're doing a very good job antagonizing everyone outside their borders and causing Eorzea, of all places, to unite under common economic and military policies, something unheard of in that land's history.

Basically, if they're gonna paint the WoL as a mass murderer, they'd need to find a damn good reason of why other than "they've been halting all of our glorious military conquests that was done mostly with our conscripted provincial soldiers".

Oh boy!

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

[W]e have no idea how truthful [Asahi] is being.

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... I'm not the only one questioning whether or not Varis really sent him, am I?

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Originally Posted by SkyEdge1

Honestly? Nothing comes to mind, every time Garlemald comes up it's either the PoV of us as the defenders, dealing with the brutality of their military (as though anyone in war could claim to be free of sin) or we are dealing with ex-patriots who have shunned Garlemald for one reason or another... I wouldn't call every person in Garlemald a villain simply on the unsanctioned actions of Nael, or the misguided pursuit of Gaius and even to a degree the nihilistic nature of Zenos.

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No, that's wrong! Nael's actions were fully sanctioned by the Empire, Gaius' pursuits were fully sanctioned by the Empire before 2.0, and other than Varis denouncing Zenos as a worthy successor to the throne there's no condemnation of his actions. There are Garlean citizens who oppose the Imperial government and its fascistic ways, but those people don't publicly voice their dissent because to do so leads to imprisonment and/or execution - for themselves, their loved ones, or both.

Also, the Eorzeans are defending themselves from Imperial aggression - nothing more. Even the conflicts of Stormblood can easily be construed as preemptive counter offensives. Claiming that to be sinful is victim blaming.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

<Garlemald's Good Points>

...

Moving forward, we will no doubt see more of the above. The developers have been very careful to keep each Legion as its own separate thing, yet so far we have mostly only seen Garlemald through the eyes of the Eorzeans. We will inevitably see even more positive things associated with Garlemald as the story takes us closer to it.

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I'm not trying to deny Regula's virtue, but does that make him a genuine force of goodness? Are virtue and goodness one and the same? Does dying a hero's death make up for a lifetime of needless brutality? (See: Vegeta, Grom Hellscream)

Gaius' discontinuation of chemical warfare was purely for pragmatic purposes, just like his covert opposition to the Meteor Project. His intent was always to rule; ruling a smoking crater and/or a pile of corpses wasn't something he aspired to.

The other half of the Baut questline is pointing out how the Imperials spread propaganda that the Eorzeans really are savages who execute any and all POWs. This is a lie, as evidenced numerous times in Stormblood. He also states that some provinces are "unchanged" (not improved) by Imperial rule, but others where people would "welcome death with open arms." The latter is not acceptable because of the former.

Past ills inflicted upon the Garlean people does not justify overgeneralizing everyone unlike them as savages and using a self-fulfilling prophecy as excuse to try their hand at world domination. It provides a motive, which is not the same thing.

We may see more positive things out of the Empire. We may not. It's too early to tell. All I can say is I remain unconvinced any good is going to come of Varis' rule.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Oh boy!

No, that's wrong! Nael's actions were fully sanctioned by the Empire, Gaius' pursuits were fully sanctioned by the Empire before 2.0, and other than Varis denouncing Zenos as a worthy successor to the throne there's no condemnation of his actions. There are Garlean citizens who oppose the Imperial government and its fascistic ways, but those people don't publicly voice their dissent because to do so leads to imprisonment and/or execution - for themselves, their loved ones, or both.

Also, the Eorzeans are defending themselves from Imperial aggression - nothing more. Even the conflicts of Stormblood can easily be construed as preemptive counter offensives. Claiming that to be sinful is victim blaming.

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I will redact my 'unsanctioned' statement as that was made in ignorance, as for the victim blaming, I don't think that a counter offensive is in and of itself a sin or an unwarranted act of aggression. But war, by its very nature, has 2 sides to the story. My main point was simply that we only are ever really treated in the MSQ to our PoV as the Warrior of Light and that of the conquering hero. And in the end it more or less always works out for us in that sense. I simply would like to be treated to a story where we see ourselves from the PoV of our enemies. Which given our propensity for wiping out Castrum and legions of imperial soldiers and besting some of the most notable warriors of Garlemald must make us seem quite the monster to those of Garlemald.

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Originally Posted by SkyEdge1

I simply would like to be treated to a story where we see ourselves from the PoV of our enemies.

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We had this happen at the end of Heavensward, and it caused so much confusion that the devs had to explicitly explain what was going on.

So I don't think this is going to happen again.

What many are trying to tout as peace i see as subjection. There is a difference there. Were a home invader to gain entry to an occupied residence, beat the father and son, rape the daughter and mother, kill the dog, eat the food, steal the money, and not leave, would you call his living there for twenty years a time of peace? Be on the losing side of that kind of "peace" and tell me who is the aggressor. You would just have to live there, a prisoner in your own home, listening to what was being done to your loved ones, by your new benevolent rulers, every day. That's not what i call peace.

Fighting against that evil isn't being an aggressor. I don't understand how anyone could confuse the two. You can't be an aggressor if you rebelled against a hostile foreign occupier. My example may be extreme, however there are multiple references to these exact acts being committed. Even the prostitutes complained of the of the nature of the Garlean soldiers, you need only ask J'ghonako in Ala Ghiri.

I have yet to begin on the human experimentation, why else would the roaders have flesh like torso's and the death claws faces?

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Originally Posted by SkyEdge1

... [W]e only are ever really treated in the MSQ to our PoV as the Warrior of Light and that of the conquering hero. And in the end it more or less always works out for us in that sense. I simply would like to be treated to a story where we see ourselves from the PoV of our enemies. Which given our propensity for wiping out Castrum and legions of imperial soldiers and besting some of the most notable warriors of Garlemald must make us seem quite the monster to those of Garlemald.

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Well... Doma and Ala Mhigo were both brutally conquered and oppressed territories (former nations); since they obviously did not like Imperial rule, being reviled by the inhabitants of those areas wouldn't make sense. It cannot be stressed enough that the protagonists' actions are purely reactionary / defensive - they are liberators and defenders, not warriors or conquerors. Considering that and the story being told from their perspective, naturally they are going to come across as rather clean.

A few of the Garlean civilians aboard the Prima Vista do offer an alternative view of the Warrior of Light, but a story where they fight on behalf of people who fear and revile them just doesn't seem feasible. You can't save people who don't want to be saved. Furthermore, while we should be infamous in Garlemald... not even every soldier knows who we are despite having made chumps of 3* legates, killed scores of their compatriots, and wrecked countless numbers of their warmachina. Even whose who do know who we are charge us anyway. Against all expectations, I have the feeling the Garlean citizenry... doesn't know who the Warrior of Light is, at least not in enough detail to have them run in terror or throw tomatoes at the sight of them.

*Legacy players get 4 for Nael.

What we individually want from the story is kind of... meaningless, I suppose? We don't write it, so all we can really do is roll with the punches. Stormblood was, yes, a tale of liberation, not war. The Eorzeans have not shown themselves to be particularly interested in making war... after all, they let Ala Mhigo rot for 20 years and only did something about it because they weren't left with much of a choice.

Do SCoB players still get four legates chumped or does that not count? D:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Do SCoB players still get four legates chumped or does that not count? D:

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This is where the difference between those with the 'Legacy' story and everyone else differs, but ultimately it still works out having the same result. Nael (or rather, his sister Eulla-wearing-his-armour) is dead by the time of the Second Coil of Bahamut regardless as he she is just an aetheric construct given flesh by Bahamut from a lingering fragment of Nael's memories trapped in the Holocharts (this is why it creates a hologram of the Rivenroad complete with Dalamud above) and all the aether that the internment hulk is drenched in.

Eulla-as-Nael was canonically killed prior to the Calamity by the original Warriors of Light regardless of whether you are a 1.0 player with the 'Legacy' story or not, the only difference is if you're a 1.0 player with the 'Legacy' story, you are the one responsible (in that you are playing as that character), but if you're not on a 1.0 character with the 'Legacy' story, then it's presumed the original Warriors of Light never returned, only that they were responsible for Nael's original defeat at the Rivenroad.

Either way, Nael is dead no matter who your character is in Second Coil (to say nothing of the real Nael being very much long dead even before then).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

(to say nothing of the real Nael being very much long dead even before then).

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To be fair, the real Nael never became Legatus.

This actually reinforces your general point, since I don't think Eula counts as a Legatus by the time of ARR; presumably the aetheric construct she became in the Coils is not eligible for the position. So it is indeed true that the 1.0 Warriors of Light are the ones who get the credit for taking down the Legatus of the VIIth Legion.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

not even every soldier knows who we are despite having made chumps of 3* legates

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ARR and later players get two. Regula was credited to Zurvan. The Emperor almost certainly knows about that, and the VIth definitely know, but other than that the information may have been suppressed.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Do SCoB players still get four legates chumped or does that not count? D:

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In the context of contributing to our theoretical infamy among the Garlean populace? No, Nael doesn't count. Only a select few Eorzeans (namely the Scions) know about the events that occurred in the Coils; I highly doubt the average Garlean citizen is aware of that.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

... ARR and later players get two. Regula was credited to Zurvan. The Emperor almost certainly knows about that, and the VIth definitely know, but other than that the information may have been suppressed.

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I deliberately said "chumped," not "killed." If you want to be technical about it, non-Legacy Warriors of Light haven't actually killed any legates. They have defeated 3 but none actually died by their hand. Gaius was defeated and had no way to escape the exploding Praetorium, Regula was defeated twice (once in undeniably canon single combat) and sacrificed himself to save Unukalhai, and Zenos was defeated but committed suicide. Nael was the only clean kill. Another detail the Garlean citizenry probably isn't aware of, but I digress.

(I'm aware of the whole Nael / Eula thing, but it's a phantom distinction. Regardless of name, she was still Legatus of the VIIth Legion, and Nael is just the more commonly used of the two.)

Going back to some older points...

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Which brings up the question (story and gameplay segregation), how exactly do you knock somebody out if you're a mechanist. I'm going down the route of wild mass guessing, but you can't exactly knock somebody out if you're shooting them with bullets, or using Flamethrower. This might be skirting a little too closely to our reality however.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Hard to keep them alive if you're slashing at them with a great-axe, or even if you're shooting fireballs at them. This is one of those places where gameplay stands apart from the story, but as is always the case, the story wins over the gameplay and you just need to hope your suspension of disbelief is strong enough.

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The closest-to-canon demonstration on this is the Heavensward demo, where the Warrior of Light gets attacked by the dragon breathing fire at him. His cloak burns away but he (and his warrior armour) is completely fine, so possibly there's some considerable enchantments on the armour that stop him from being injured in the same way that a normal person would.

(Which is also my best guess at a 'real' reason why we can't equip gear until we reach a certain level - the enchantments are something akin to the gear being 'electrified' with aether and you need a certain level of strength/ability to physically cope with it.)

Side note on machinist specifically though - it really bugged me that a few quests instructed you to use one of your battle skills as a "warning shot" to scare off intruders in town, but the animation for the skill has you shooting directly at them at close range.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Because unless you know Red magic, you can't use your own aether to use stone and air attacks. As she's only barely a CNJ who refuses to borrow from nature, she locks herself out of those branches of the art, but it is not because she refuses to use offensive abilities.

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Sylphie's issue, as she sees it, is that she doesn't want to learn attack magic, she just wants to heal - and she thinks she doesn't need to learn to attune with the elements (which from memory involves learning the attack spells associated with them) because she can heal just fine without any training. What she doesn't realise (and E-Sumi-Yan fails to explain to her) is that her intuitive use of healing magic is draining her own aether because she doesn't know how to draw the power from outside of herself.

go to eureka n bam u have your mass murder ._.

You can argue all you want about the definition or justification of murder. There has certainly been plenty of blood spilled.
I see the WoL as an exterminator. He projects power in a very specific manner. Others tell him where to do it. He assumes the reason is just. Maybe he cares. So far the public is on his side, but public perception can change easily, and the WoL does not have power in the political arena.

He is used as a tool. There must be some concern from his handlers about how powerful he grows, and whether it will eventually bite them.
But now he is also a resource. Since the revelation that the echo can be transferred, two separate scions have told him to his face that they wished they had his power, so they could act on their own agendas. Maybe the WoL is and always will be "good", but corruption can grow anywhere. Feelings of powerlessness and envy can poison even the Scions. In Lyse's case, she is under way too much pressure in a position she is not qualified for. I think the WoL needs to watch his back and his "friends".the political arena.

If there was going to be a traitor from the Scions, my finger is on Thancred. Ever since the whole business in Ul'dah, he's pretty much lost his smile. He got possessed by Lahabrea, so who knows if there's still some lingering affects that the devs hadn't touched on insofar as his aether goes. Then there was the whole business with Minfilia and the Warriors of Darkness. Lore-wise, the WoL was powerful enough to take out a primal meant to be close to Bahamut's level (something that Papalymo was barely able to seal) and Zenos.

Though it might be out of character, Thancred definitely hasn't been the same since ARR - anger and jealousy could twist him.

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Originally Posted by Slevin_Impudicus

You can argue all you want about the definition or justification of murder. There has certainly been plenty of blood spilled.
I see the WoL as an exterminator. He projects power in a very specific manner. Others tell him where to do it. He assumes the reason is just. Maybe he cares. So far the public is on his side, but public perception can change easily, and the WoL does not have power in the political arena.

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As others have pointed out, it's going to be very hard to try turning public opinion of the Warrior of Light, because almost NO ONE actually believed that they killed the Sultana. On the contrary, the WoL has the personal favor and approval of all of the top rulers of Eorzea's city states. Short of pulling a Zenos and starting to kill everyone (and even then people would suspect foul play rather than think the WoL has actually gotten crazy), I'm pretty sure he has a pretty solid good standing.

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He is used as a tool. There must be some concern from his handlers about how powerful he grows, and whether it will eventually bite them.
But now he is also a resource. Since the revelation that the echo can be transferred, two separate scions have told him to his face that they wished they had his power, so they could act on their own agendas. Maybe the WoL is and always will be "good", but corruption can grow anywhere. Feelings of powerlessness and envy can poison even the Scions. In Lyse's case, she is under way too much pressure in a position she is not qualified for. I think the WoL needs to watch his back and his "friends".the political arena.

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I really, really hope they don't go down this route. This isn't Game of Thrones. FFXIV isn't afraid to pull punches when it comes to moral greyness in certain areas and playing around with certain expectations, but it is ultimately a story about unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil, personified in the fight of Hydaleyn vs. Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by NoblePigeon

...This isn't Game of Thrones. FFXIV isn't afraid to pull punches when it comes to moral greyness in certain areas and playing around with certain expectations, but it is ultimately a story about unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil, personified in the fight of Hydaleyn vs. Zodiark.

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I can't disagree with this enough. Everything is shades of gray and always changing. Unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil is neither realistic nor interesting.

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Originally Posted by Slevin_Impudicus

I can't disagree with this enough. Everything is shades of gray and always changing. Unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil is neither realistic nor interesting.

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The setting doesn't need to be whatever anyone might call realistic in terms of good vs. evil because they exist as objective forces of nature, and SE has shown that they still do interesting things with that as well (worlds being devoured by "too much Light", the WoL's status as "the destined hero" being examined without plot armor, the WHOLE DARK KNIGHT QUEST, stuff like that).

What purpose does it serve for any of the Scions to turn on the WoL? The tone of the setting is not about everything being in shades of grey. It's not film noir, it's not Dark Souls. Why would they be jealous? All of the Scions know they have their own ways of contributing, and don't seem interested in shouldering the burdens that the WoL has to. They shouldn't be concerned about how powerful the WoL grows because the WoL has never, not ONCE shown to be anything other than a genuine good person. Which isn't without its own consequences (see again, the DRK job quest line).

There is shades of grey in the setting, and there are complex issues to tackle that aren't initially clearly defined. But the Scions shouldn't be affected by that. They toyed with that idea with Uriangier and it ended up being that he was still ultimately on our side. If a Scion, for some weird reason DOES turn bad, it needs to be for extraordinary reasons, not just because they're jealous or feel powerless.

i would like it if we can be given the choice to join the Garlean empire then have to fight eorzeans i would love to kick their booty.

https://i.redd.it/3dpu67wfbg901.jpg

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Originally Posted by Slevin_Impudicus

... Everything is shades of gray and always changing. Unambiguous good vs. unambiguous evil is neither realistic nor interesting.

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This is fiction; it doesn't have to be realistic, and the writers are allowed to write whatever sort of story they wish regardless of whether or not you personally take interest in it.

You might find morally grey, "realistic" stories more interesting, and that's fine, but not every story has to be morally grey and/or realistic.

Anyone who believes the WoL is truly innocent has fallen trap to the Eorzean propaganda machine. We just disrupted an entire region because one person wanted his throne back. Otherwise the region was at peace. Sure some people were suffering but even after we put the king back on the throne, people are suffering. At least the empire had the capability of protecting it's followers. It's too bad that we just put in Usurper on the throne.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Anyone who believes the WoL is truly innocent has fallen trap to the Eorzean propaganda machine. We just disrupted an entire region because one person wanted his throne back. Otherwise the region was at peace. Sure some people were suffering but even after we put the king back on the throne, people are suffering. At least the empire had the capability of protecting it's followers. It's too bad that we just put in Usurper on the throne.

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Several counterarguments:

1. Hien was fine with either fighting for Doman liberation or killing himself and allowing it to become an Imperial province, depending on what the people wanted. The Namai villagers rising up against Zenos of their own volition, despite the hopelessness of doing so, was taken as a sign that the citizens did not want Imperial rule.

2. Doma was not "at peace," insomuch as a tyrant ruled the nation and used her power to terrorize its citizens as vengeance for the unpunished cruelties inflicted on her by her family due to cultural issues.

3. "Some people were suffering" is a massive understatement as to the state of Doma's citizens under Imperial rule. The people were being killed at the acting Viceroy's whim and deceitfully forced into effective slavery for the actions of people in an unaffiliated confederacy - and that's just what we have firsthand accounts of. It's reasonably safe to assume that the Imperial MO - forced conscription, use of the local women for "comfort," etc. - held true as well.

4. Hien has sat on the throne for a month or two; change does not happen overnight, and no matter who rules there will always be people dissatisfied with the state.

5. While the Empire had the capability of protecting its residents (or followers, if you prefer) there is no indication it did so in Doma (and we have a firsthand account of its soldiers actively neglecting their duties to a citizen in Ala Mhigo), and no record of the Empire improving the overall quality of life in any conquered provincial territory.

6. Hien was the rightful heir to the Doman throne unless he has an elder sibling we are yet unaware of. I fail to see how he could usurp the throne in any way, regardless of who fought for him.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

6. Hien was the rightful heir to the Doman throne unless he has an elder sibling we are yet unaware of. I fail to see how he usurped the throne.

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Rightful is totally up to interpretation. If rightful is based upon bloodlines sure. But Bloodlines don't necessarily guarantee a right to rule. Should be put to a vote Yotsuyu or Hien. Then will we truly see what the residents of the region prefer.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Rightful is totally up to interpretation. If rightful is based upon bloodlines sure. But Bloodlines don't necessarily guarantee a right to rule. Should be put to a vote Yotsuyu or Hien. Then will we truly see what the residents of the region prefer.

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Democracy is preferable, but Doma was ruled as a monarchy prior to the Imperial invasion and occupation; unlike Ala Mhigo there is no indication the people were dissatisfied with that, so the country returning to that form of government after shaking off the Empire is hardly surprising.

You could put it to a vote, if you like... but given Yotsuyu was murdering the Domans while Hien was willing to die for them, the winner of such a vote is all but a foregone conclusion.

This entire thread is just...
Yikes

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Otherwise the region was at peace. Sure some people were suffering but even after we put the king back on the throne, people are suffering. At least the empire had the capability of protecting it's followers.

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I think this has been shown to be empirically false.

The Empire is not protecting its followers. It may have the capability to do so, but it clearly has no interest in it. The proof is in the Echo flashback to Fordola's childhood, where Fordola's parents, clearly supporters of the Garlean Empire, are attacked in the streets, while Imperial soldiers disinterestedly look on.

As for the suffering of the people, this is a false equivalency. The game's story very clearly shows that life under Hien is, in general, better than life under Zenos and Yotsuyu. (We do not know whether life under Kaien was better than life under whoever was in charge of Doma before Zenos, but I see that as irrelevant to the point at hand, since we speak now of Hien, who is not Kaien.) There may be disagreements on whether this is a believable narrative, but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Anyone who believes the WoL is truly innocent has fallen trap to the Eorzean propaganda machine. We just disrupted an entire region because one person wanted his throne back. Otherwise the region was at peace. Sure some people were suffering but even after we put the king back on the throne, people are suffering. At least the empire had the capability of protecting it's followers. It's too bad that we just put in Usurper on the throne.

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This is exactly what I would imagine imperials would post in Internet forums if the internet existed in the setting.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Rightful is totally up to interpretation. If rightful is based upon bloodlines sure. But Bloodlines don't necessarily guarantee a right to rule. Should be put to a vote Yotsuyu or Hien. Then will we truly see what the residents of the region prefer.

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You’re right, they’d vote for the puppet ruler that was universally hated in Doma, known for her cruelty against her own people, appointed by the people that brought peace and prosperity to the land by systematically destroying large swathes of the region when the Domans had the audacity to rise up against their oppressors.

Something something Eorzea is just as bad, the Empire was only fighting a small minority of Doman rebels in the uprising, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

The Empire is not protecting its followers. It may have the capability to do so, but it clearly has no interest in it. The proof is in the Echo flashback to Fordola's childhood, where Fordola's parents, clearly supporters of the Garlean Empire, are attacked in the streets, while Imperial soldiers disinterestedly look on.

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This actually goes a step further. Fordola and her parents weren't just supporters or followers of the Empire, they were actually citizens. The Imperial soldiers actively chose to be derelict in their duties to Imperial citizens out of racism and laziness. (How unprofessional.)

Furthermore, this defining moment in Fordola's life occurred when Gaius was the viceroy of Ala Mhigo, so Zenos' malign influence can't be used as an excuse.

....................I need a Drink.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Anyone who believes the WoL is truly innocent has fallen trap to the Eorzean propaganda machine. We just disrupted an entire region because one person wanted his throne back. Otherwise the region was at peace. Sure some people were suffering but even after we put the king back on the throne, people are suffering. At least the empire had the capability of protecting it's followers. It's too bad that we just put in Usurper on the throne.

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Did you miss the part of the story where none of the Eorzean city states had a thing to do with the liberation of Doma? It was literally a side mission run completely by the Scions while everyone else waited in Ala Mihgo. You're also leaving out the part where Hien made sure the people wanted to rebel and the parts where the farmers made it clear they were afraid of the Empire.

I have lost track at what is going on in this thread now.

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Originally Posted by SicariusSeven

I have lost track at what is going on in this thread now.

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Mass genocide inflicted by a single person who may or may not be a Nazumu at this very moment.

so the usual.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

Mass genocide inflicted by a single person who may or may not be a Nazumu at this very moment.

so the usual.

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Yet another in a long line of attempts to demonize the protagonist for being a skilled, talented, and divinely empowered champion of the world's creator goddess who uses their abilities to fulfill their charge and oath of protecting Eorzea, its citizens, and their way of life, even though that means killing at times.

Nothing to see here, move along. (I'm not a golden Namazu. Honest.)

Ah, yes, the Glorious Namazu of Light.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Nothing to see here, move along. (I'm not a golden Namazu. Honest.)

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Seems fishy.

A hero in war is a terrorist during peace. Or something like that, it's a quote that comes to mind for this thread. Also on a FAR more important note, why can't I see the Namazu invasion on the mobile version of the site?!? #unsubscribe #freethefishies

I'm not altogeher sure we are always killing people. I remember in the Level 54 black mage story arc. A big deal was made about us actually killing the mages. The fight didn't look any different but allies and antagonists alike were shocked that our power got out of control and we killed those mages.

I also think some of weather we do or don't kill is based on the writer. I know it's been explicitly said we are killing the enemy while other times we are told we just knocked the. Out.

In the end this is a war. Not just against the empire but also against the Ascians. We fight because we must 'for those we can yet save" at no point have I felt the WoL is deriving joy from killing. The closest he ever gets is when he is talking about killing primals.

We didn't kill the Warriors of Darkness, because like Warriors of Light, they can't be killed. It would be nice to bring some new ones back.

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Originally Posted by Darkreality6

We didn't kill the Warriors of Darkness, because like Warriors of Light, they can't be killed. It would be nice to bring some new ones back.

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That was because the Warriors of Darkness

were already dead to begin with (this was apparently the price they had to pay in order to travel across dimensions from their own parallel-world version of Hydaelyn to ours, thus they were basically just corporeal spirits.). Hence why it was so easy for Goddess!Minfilia to take them back to the First Shard, they were just beings of aether by that stage anyway just like she was.

However we are not, we're still alive and have not achieved that stage yet (interestingly becoming a being of pure aether is what mastery of the Echo actually achieves so whether Evil!Derplander and his friends actually were not really 'dead' but had simply attained that mastery over the Echo to transcend themselves and were simply parroting lies told to them by Elidibus or whether they indeed died physically only to have their spirits pulled away from rejoining the Lifestream of the First Shard is unclear - there seems little distinction between the two concepts in any event, or at least, that's how it seems to me.).

Either way, it is clear we can die, it's just we have plot armour from the narrative that ensures we always survive despite whatever is thrown at us because without us, there is no story. ;) Also, gameplay wise concepts like repeatedly running dungeons and the like are not part of the narrative, story wise you ever only run a dungeon once and that is it - this is why we have Hard Mode versions, that is the second time you enter it and thus circumstances have changed. But things like failing a duty and repeating it are ignored by the story as they're gameplay mechanics separate from that.

Thus narrative wise we very much are mortal (both Hydaelyn and the Ascians constantly refer to us as such) and so can in fact die, it's just the story ensures we survive because we are the protagonist and the story would not exist without us. ;)

Read only the first and last pages, so no Namazu agenda here.

About The Echo - it does not empower the WoL. As far as I can see, it is largely useless against vanilla mortals and without a primal/Ascian/possibly draconic threat to face, the player character is nothing more than a fighter of prodigious talent and skill - but still a regular mortal. The blessing of light allows the PC to shrug off the tempering powers of primals - Arenvald and Fedora are not walking machines of mass destruction, yet they were capable of competently fighting Lakshmi. I really feel people are underestimating how much of a problem the power of primals to temper those they fight is. They don't need to be super-powered engines of mass destruction, just the threat of essentially switching sides at a moment's notice from just coming in their presence.

I believe that the reason the Company of Heroes are hailed as such glorious badasses not because Titan had more physical strength in his pinky than the entire Company, but because they found a way to fight him without all of them being tempered.

Remember that Raubahn was able to go toe-to-toe with post-Nidhogg WoL with only one arm. And Zenos kicked the level 62ish WoL about like a puppy.

Now why did I ramble about things everyone else knows? Because, imo, one of the biggest reasons the WoL would have for being ostracized after the war ended is being exactly what he is not (currently) - a supernaturally powerful entity capable of threatening the city states. No matter his past glories and accomplishments, no amount of good will would stop the leadership (maybe not the leaders themselves) of the city states from taking precautions against such a potential threat. In fact, such rumbles in post-war Eorzea might be just what we'd need as a reason to go exploring (and sort of into exile) Mericydia, the new world and whatever other places we have for post-Garlemald expansions.