Built-in Parsers

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Originally Posted by Baingoleth

People who bring very divisive political arguments in an already heated debate about something else entirely should be automatically disqualified.

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You missed my point entirely.
My point is not only is it wrong to claim that it's true in all cases, but that those who did do the opposite of what Kairi said, had highly positive effects outof it.

Basicly just what I wrote at the very end (and you then conveniently skipped). Sometimes it is a good idea to punish the many, for the actions of a few

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

Uhm I wasn't referring to guns, but okay.

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If you werent reffering to it, or doing it by proxy, you'd have made sure the interpertation wasnt there instead of deliberately allowing it through vague wording

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

You missed my point entirely.
My point is not only is it wrong to claim that it's true in all cases, but that those who did do the opposite of what Kairi said, had highly positive effects outof it.

Basicly just what I wrote at the very end (and you then conveniently skipped). Sometimes it is a good idea to punish the many, for the actions of a few



If you werent reffering to it, or doing it by proxy, you'd have made sure the interpertation wasnt there instead of deliberately allowing it through vague wording

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I read your whole post. I quoted only the relevant bits to express my sentiment. Let's not compare parsers to guns kplsthx. Bringing up gun control is the sort of thing that derails otherwise productive threads.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

If you werent reffering to it, or doing it by proxy, you'd have made sure the interpertation wasnt there instead of deliberately allowing it through vague wording

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Deliberately my butt. I was talking bout simple everyday tools like hammers, shovels or kitchen cutlery that everyone everywhere use and don't have regulations. Things that aren't super controversial. When I think tools, my mind doesn't automatically go to guns. The word 'tool' can be many many things.

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Originally Posted by Baingoleth

I read your whole post. I quoted only the relevant bits to express my sentiment. Let's not compare parsers to guns kplsthx. Bringing up gun control is the sort of thing that derails otherwise productive threads.

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Again, I'm not doing a direct comparison between the 2.
I'm comparing the need to punish everyone using them because a few rotten apples.

And lets be real, this thread stopped being productive long before it even existed, since this topic has already been discussed to death, but neither side wants to give a inch

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

And lets be real, this thread stopped being productive long before it even existed, since this topic has already been discussed to death, but neither side wants to give a inch

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I seriously doubt this topic will go away as long as tools like ACT exist and tools like ACT are going to keep on existing. This is why my stance is to ask for SE to stop the transmission of other player's numbers to all party members.

I feel like the idea of a personal parse wouldn't be a bad idea. Not tracking everyone else's performance but your own at least to maybe see about where you stand. I know that when I first started the game I was clueless if I was doing good or bad(this was before I knew this game even had parsers) so I was a bit lost and just kinda winged it. Due to being able to parse I was able to come a long way from when I had first started raiding in Gordias.

I'd like to ask a hypothetical question to the anti-parser people

You're doing O3S, you have a NIN, MNK, RDM and MCH for DPS, and you fail a DPS check 3 times in a row (ignoring tank and healer DPS, let's say it's the White Flame). Somebody you're playing with is running ACT and notices the RDM has considerably lower DPS and higher HPS then usual, and are the only person who has 1 or 2 deaths per attempt. Checking the abilities used shows the RDM is frequently casting Vercure, Jolt 2 (while procs are available) And unenchanted melee attacks.

You and other party members offer advice but it falls on deaf ears. Another failed DPS check and people are starting to get angry

You are the party leader of this team, what would you do? What do you think is fair? Does the RDM's enjoyment of how they play justify the growing frustration of the other party members?

EDIT: The party is a late phase learning party or a weekly kill party. NOT a fresh learning party

I don't have a problem with parsers, and would actually like an in game one... BUT...

It's been made *very* clear on *many* occassions that it is not going to happen. Not today. Not tomorrow. Not ever. You can dress it up any way you want and reality won't change. We will not ever get parsers.

Let the poor horse be dead in peace.

Rigth now, after the behavior of the community regarding Parsers and the infamous FFlogs, my stand rigth now is lock the data transmission of other party member damage data to client, this renders the parse useless for anyone else except the player.

Better put an end to this once forever.

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

I'd like to ask a hypothetical question to the anti-parser people

You're doing O3S, you have a NIN, MNK, RDM and MCH for DPS, and you fail a DPS check 3 times in a row (ignoring tank and healer DPS, let's say it's the White Flame). Somebody you're playing with is running ACT and notices the RDM has considerably lower DPS and higher HPS then usual, and are the only person who has 1 or 2 deaths per attempt. Checking the abilities used shows the RDM is frequently casting Vercure, Jolt 2 (while procs are available) And unenchanted melee attacks.

You and other party members offer advice but it falls on deaf ears. Another failed DPS check and people are starting to get angry

You are the party leader of this team, what would you do? What do you think is fair? Does the RDM's enjoyment of how they play justify the growing frustration of the other party members?

EDIT: The party is a late phase learning party or a weekly kill party. NOT a fresh learning party

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Nice example! I'd say it was time to get rid of the RDM and initiate the kick. It is fair to do so because the RDM is obviously ignoring the advice of party members and I. The RDM's enjoyment of how they play is impeding the party as a whole.

Even though I lean toward no parsers, your hypothetical question shows one of your party using a parser correctly.

Stone, Sea, Sky is the closest we'll probably ever see to a parser in game, even though it completely screws MNK now due to Brotherhood.
I know people in my FC that do parse runs (I'm on PS4 so I can't check myself) but it just feels weird to ask for a parse, just to gauge your own personal performance and while they said I did great for my MNK (3.6-3.7k in V1S in i320 gear at the time) without any context about the number, I was still just as clueless on how to improve short of getting better gear.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Even though I lean toward no parsers, your hypothetical question shows one of your party using a parser correctly.

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Realistically, this is what most people who advocate for parsers do. Tools like FFlogs only improve by adding overall class rankings and timelines. Let's take my recent log of O3S for example: 80th percentile on WAR as MT. I can easily take this information, look at other WARs who are 81%+ and see what they do differently then I do. Timelines help a ton too as they show exactly when a person uses what ability.

It's because of sites like FFLogs and Warcraftlogs (bless your soul Khira) that I've not only improved myself but other people as well. I'm more then willing to help people down to a fundamental level, but as my old man always says: "You can't help those who don't want to help themselves"

I will not deny the existence of people who use parsers as a weapon, I've been hit by people like that before. I had low DPS on an alt character because my gear was trash, and I was trying to get better gear. But this is what the report function is for. Harrassment, parser or otherwise, should be unacceptable, but in my opinion, the pros outweigh the cons. Even though it may anger a portion of the playerbase, imagine the PS4 playerbase who'd be ecstatic over the implementation

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

just to gauge your own personal performance and while they said I did great for my MNK (3.6-3.7k in V1S in i320 gear at the time) without any context about the number, I was still just as clueless on how to improve short of getting better gear.

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NintenPyjak64's post covers it pretty well: Assuming they're uploading, find yourself on FFlogs... start looking at what those slightly better than you do different, and see what you can adopt. Repeat as necessary.

Unfortunately FFLogs can be and is used as a shaming weapon as well -- but the facilities it has for self improvement are pretty good. Even if SE finally did cave and add an in game meter, it wouldn't be able to show you timelines, DoT uptime, and so on like FFLogs can.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

And lets be real, this thread stopped being productive long before it even existed, since this topic has already been discussed to death, but neither side wants to give a inch

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Because like the ever beloved healer DPS, the opposing side lacks a stable argument. You claim parses would make it too easy to blur the lines between "playstyle" and "harassment" yet that doesn't add up.

"What's going on <insert player name>? Your DPS (SAM) is really low."
"Wtf <insert player name>? Fix your shit or I'm kicking you."

Those are two widely different tone. I can and should be reported for the latter, but the former isn't harassment in any way. If said player refuses to improve or admits they don't know their rotation well. I'm not obligated to carry them through content. If you think PF groups don't already kick for poor parses, you haven't pugged Savage. The only difference is they just don't tell you why or they reform the party and invite those they wanted back.

The parse argument basically boils down to "you'll hurt someone's feelings."

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Because like the ever beloved healer DPS, the opposing side lacks a stable argument. You claim parses would make it too easy to blur the lines between "playstyle" and "harassment" yet that doesn't add up. "What's going on <insert player name>? Your DPS (SAM) is really low."
"Wtf <insert player name>? Fix your shit or I'm kicking you."

Those are two widely different tone. I can and should be reported for the latter, but the former isn't harassment in any way. If said player refuses to improve or admits they don't know their rotation well. I'm not obligated to carry them through content. If you think PF groups don't already kick for poor parses, you haven't pugged Savage. The only difference is they just don't tell you why or they reform the party and invite those they wanted back.

The parse argument basically boils down to "you'll hurt someone's feelings."

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Not true. Can't you see why parsers would turn a large number of people off? I can't speak for everyone; but, a lot of us FFXIV players came over from WoW, a game which embraces the use of parsers.

It is common to have people post their DPS numbers into party/raid chat after every pull. It is not uncommon to be called a scrub or worse because you can't match the dps of someone twenty ilevels above you.

So, it's not parsers will hurt someone's feelings. It's that they will irrevocably change the game's community and atmosphere for the worse.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

Deliberately my butt. I was talking bout simple everyday tools like hammers, shovels or kitchen cutlery that everyone everywhere use and don't have regulations. Things that aren't super controversial. When I think tools, my mind doesn't automatically go to guns. The word 'tool' can be many many things.

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needed tools vs unneeded tools.

no one needs a parser to get better. People choose to use it. Whst do you think old school mmo people did before third party tools became a thing?

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

I'd like to ask a hypothetical question to the anti-parser people

You're doing O3S, you have a NIN, MNK, RDM and MCH for DPS, and you fail a DPS check 3 times in a row (ignoring tank and healer DPS, let's say it's the White Flame). Somebody you're playing with is running ACT and notices the RDM has considerably lower DPS and higher HPS then usual, and are the only person who has 1 or 2 deaths per attempt. Checking the abilities used shows the RDM is frequently casting Vercure, Jolt 2 (while procs are available) And unenchanted melee attacks.

You and other party members offer advice but it falls on deaf ears. Another failed DPS check and people are starting to get angry

You are the party leader of this team, what would you do? What do you think is fair? Does the RDM's enjoyment of how they play justify the growing frustration of the other party members?

EDIT: The party is a late phase learning party or a weekly kill party. NOT a fresh learning party

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my question would be what is the healer doing if a rdm is having to self cure (if that is what your going by) why is the rdm dying? You leave a lot of details out. Remember content is a GROUP thing. Everyone in the GROUP is responsable if things go south.
You left out how advice was given, was it rude and unsolicited? or was it offered to the rdm as a choice?

if you single out 1 person because of a tool (that has a margin of error) of 8 and claiming fault, can cause problems for that 1 person who will get embarrassed and perform worst.

The rdm wouldn't need to heal if the healers were healing. Rdm wouldn't die if the healers were healing.

Why not after 3 wipes you vote abandon and talk to the rdm 1 on 1, see what the issues were. saying "your doing it wrong" is the worst way to tell a person to improve, ask to give them advice/tips. Offer some links to videos if that is how they learn.

no parser needed, just be a good person.

If that isn't good, party up with people you know only.

Like i said how you think mmo players go by before third party tools existed?

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Not true. Can't you see why parsers would turn a large number of people off? I can't speak for everyone; but, a lot of us FFXIV players came over from WoW, a game which embraces the use of parsers.

It is common to have people post their DPS numbers into party/raid chat after every pull. It is not uncommon to be called a scrub or worse because you can't match the dps of someone twenty ilevels above you.

So, it's not parsers will hurt someone's feelings. It's that they will irrevocably change the game's community and atmosphere for the worse.

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FFXIV's community is really no different except people will just omit the numbers. You also have to keep in mind WoW's numbers dwarf FFXIV by a significant amount. You'll here more complaints just based on sheer volume. Per your example though, pointing out said ilvl difference makes the accuser look dumb unless you're underperforming relatively to your ilvl.

Regardless, I would prefer some actual accountability than the passive aggressiveness and constant vote abandons we see now. Once again, people like those you described will kick or disband without a public parse. They simply won't tell you why. Will some abuse parses and/or be hostile? Yes, so report them. In the long run though, allowing parses helps improve players, especially when you can direct compare rotations, buffs and get a much better understanding why your DPS may be low. Right now, it's a guessing game unless you silently run these programs, which a good number of raiders do.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Regardless, I would prefer some actual accountability than the passive aggressiveness and constant vote abandons we see now.

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This is actually a really solid sentence by itself. I didn't even fully realize how often both of these things happen until you worded it that way.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

my question would be what is the healer doing if a rdm is having to self cure (if that is what your going by) why is the rdm dying?

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Ticks of Briar damage, having the AoE Spellblade Holy and getting clipped by a tank, not breaking vines fast enough, Not running out of the elemental spellblades fast enough. There's a plethora of things can can kill or severely damage you (Especially SB:Blizzard if the healers are even a little late to cure). They could panic and try to cure themselves without waiting for a healer to throw a cure, like how a DPS would use Second Wind but as a GCD ability

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

You left out how advice was given, was it rude and unsolicited? or was it offered to the rdm as a choice?

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Ofc unsolicited, but let's say it's advice about the mechanics of the fight to address why they're dying or taking unnecessary damage. Ofc the entire party is seeing they're doing the mechanics poorly, and just want to advance to the stage the party was created for, giving advice to the person wouldn't make them embarrassed as they're likely ALREADY embarrassed because people noticed they made these mistakes

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

saying "your doing it wrong" is the worst way to tell a person to improve, ask to give them advice/tips. Offer some links to videos if that is how they learn.

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With this I go back to my own post on the matter:

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

You and other party members offer advice but it falls on deaf ears

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How can you know the other person learns from videos if the advice in the first place is falling on deaf ears?

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

no parser needed, just be a good person.

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Since the start of the game I've always sugarcoated advice I've given. I've never given advice in a rude way, yet no matter what, it's ALWAYS interpreted as rude. I've gotten to the point where I just don't offer advice anymore, to the point where I don't care

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

If that isn't good, party up with people you know only.

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I already try to do this to prevent running into players as such (see above response as to why), but there've been times where my static has needed to pug, only to be held back severely because of an outleir. It could be greedy DPS healers (NOT SAYING ALL HEALERS WHO DPS ARE GREEDY, I MEAN WHEN THEY CAST A DPS SPELL WHEN THEY SHOULD BE CASTING A CURE), it could be poor DPS making us fail checks, it could be tanks who can't hold hate on adds, I've seen it all

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

Like i said how you think mmo players go by before third party tools existed?

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Looking at FFXI, Vanilla WoW and Runescape (the only old school MMOs I have knowledge of), simplified damage rotations where a parser ofc wouldn't be needed. Creating max damage now a days is without a doubt way more complicated then it was back then, combat is much MUCH faster paced. Ofc third party tools weren't needed back then, but as rotations became more indepth, tools needed to be created to benefit. Sadly the "toxic" players took the tool and abused it, think hurting somebody with a hammer when it was made for pounding nails into wood.

I'll just say this for the record: I hate kicking people. It always makes me feel like shit after, but the biggest "redemption" I feel from it is that I'm benefiting the 6 other people. I'll care more about the team as a whole then a person individually. My static is made almost entirely of friends, people I know who won't get angry when I tell them they suck (joking or not). But I'll actively help them knowing that they could use the advice and will be receptive of it. I even go the extra mile and suffer with them at training dummies or dungeons, and they'll do the same for me if I'm learning a new class

If I ask why someone doesn't mitigate in a dungeon because I never see them using any CDs every once in a while someone complains that I'm an elitist or that I don't want to have fun and that they don't play this game to raid. I guess based on some of the content in this thread they should remove buff indicators so that I, scoundrel and harassing healer that I am, can't harass the tank for not popping Rampart once in his goddamn life.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Not true. Can't you see why parsers would turn a large number of people off? I can't speak for everyone; but, a lot of us FFXIV players came over from WoW, a game which embraces the use of parsers.

It is common to have people post their DPS numbers into party/raid chat after every pull. It is not uncommon to be called a scrub or worse because you can't match the dps of someone twenty ilevels above you.

So, it's not parsers will hurt someone's feelings. It's that they will irrevocably change the game's community and atmosphere for the worse.

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I think I'm missing something from your post.

WoW is a game that embraces the use of parsers. So wouldn't a lot of players coming from WoW be okay with use of parsers? Wouldn't they have naturally brought such a community vibe with them?

If you're claiming they came here to get away from the parsing nature of WoW...got any evidence for that? I only have anecdotes myself but a lot of my friends from WoW hate this game's policy on parsing, and left WoW for XIV because they hated the way gear was treated (something about an accessory that has an rng loot drop chance, but can account for 10+% of your dps, I'm not too clear on the details having never played WoW myself).

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

If you're claiming they came here to get away from the parsing nature of WoW...got any evidence for that? I only have anecdotes myself but a lot of my friends from WoW hate this game's policy on parsing, and left WoW for XIV because they hated the way gear was treated (something about an accessory that has an rng loot drop chance, but can account for 10+% of your dps, I'm not too clear on the details having never played WoW myself).

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WoW has 2 extra accessory slots called Trinkets. What they're complaining about is that some trinkets became so powerful for a specific class that they literally change your rotation to revolve around said trinket

At the end of Warlords of Draenor, I've heard about a caster trinket that made Arcane Mage just sit around and do next to nothing until it procs, and when it does, they went balls deep and still manage to top DPS (I played Hunter during that time, even then I was changing around trinkets on a per fight basis)

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

WoW has 2 extra accessory slots called Trinkets. What they're complaining about is that some trinkets became so powerful for a specific class that they literally change your rotation to revolve around said trinket

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How does that have anything to do with parsers though? :D Seems like a question of really unbalanced gear design.

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

I think the point was without parsers the players wouldn't have been aware they could be lazy and still perform well the rankings so wouldn't have changed their play style.

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Sure, but in this case I'd read it as the parser helping to reveal a severe lack in gear balance.

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Originally Posted by Taika

But people have the right to exclude whomever they want from their group, don't they? And they already do! There already are "high DPS or kick" party finder groups, and people will get kicked if they don't perform to a group's standards - no matter how silly those standards are. All an official parser would change is to make the process transparent: if you get kicked, you will know how you were doing, instead of being left to wonder (if you don't have access to a parser).

What an official parser wouldn't do is allow being a jerk: harassment would still be a reportable offense. So this argument doesn't really make any sense.

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True they do, totally.
But what you don't think being a jerk is.. others might get hurt/disheartened by : "your DPS is too low bye" isn't technically harassment, but you can bet your butt there are going to be a kabillion threads about this kind of kick if there ever is an official parse included.

More people don't want it than do. The majority of the playerbase does NOT want people to have tools to tell them exactly how much they are underperforming. This is silly, yes. People are actually trying to be helpful with this , yes. Most people still don't want to hear it.

You all argue this is going to help and we need this tool. Use one, go for it. But there is a price for it since it's not casual friendly: play PC and DO NOT TELL PEOPLE YOU'RE DOING IT UNLESS THEY ARE OK WITH IT.

I understand how useful it will be for you ultimate/savage types. I GET IT. But most of us really don't care or want to hear about it. Making an official one is just going to make insufferable people even worse. Bad enough we have to deal with "YOU GUYS' DPS SUCKS LOL" , with an official one we're going to get "LOL TANK ONLY 200 DPS BELOW NIN!". I doubt that would be actionable by the GM's (god knows they have more important things to pay attention too) so the argument stands: people will use it for worse things than you think and regardless of "rules" will be jerks about it.

Think of all the things that are "against the rules" that continue every day. RMT, spamming, party votekick abuse. Doesn't stop that from happening.

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Originally Posted by Taika

How does that have anything to do with parsers though?

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Nothing and nobody claimed it did either.

Person B claimed that many people left WoW because of Parsing. Person A then tried to refute Person B's statement by stating that the people Person A knows did not leave over parsing, the opposite in fact, they like parsing, and instead left WoW for different reasons - namely item design.
Since Person A admitted to not knowing the details of the item design their friends supposedly complained about, Person C, the one you quoted, kindly elaborated on them to give Person A a better understanding of the underlying complaints of their friends. That has nothing to do with parsing, it is a supporting remark that has no bearing on the topic of the thread.

Similarly, my post does not have anything to do with parsing and merely attempts to fix your poor reading comprehension. I suggest getting back to the topic of the thread at the earliest convenience.

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Originally Posted by Taika

How does that have anything to do with parsers though? :D Seems like a question of really unbalanced gear design.

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She was answering an off-topic question by Dualgunner.

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WoW is a game that embraces the use of parsers. So wouldn't a lot of players coming from WoW be okay with use of parsers? Wouldn't they have naturally brought such a community vibe with them?

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Unfortunately, I have nothing but anecdotal evidence. You know, things former WoW players have told me. To make things a bit clearer, most people I've talked to are not hardcore raiders.

Raiders have different reasons for leaving than casuals. Casual players have told me they left WoW because of the bad community. They have blamed both the cross-server party finder and the misuse of Recount for ruining the community.

Raiders tell me they left because of bad class balance, mandatory gear, and a loot system which makes it pure luck to get the needed gear.

The only thing relevant to this discussion is the belief parsers turn good gaming communities into bad gaming communities. Since I am not an employee of Blizzard, I do not have access to the data needed to support this claim. All I have is my eight years of experience with the game, and based upon that experience, I have concluded parsers, and their frequent misuse, hurt the game more than they improve it.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I understand how useful it will be for you ultimate/savage types. I GET IT. But most of us really don't care or want to hear about it.

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Which is why it's suggested as an optional feature reserved for only content where it's needed: extremes, savage and ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

She was answering an off-topic question by Dualgunner.

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Yeah well I don't think Dualgunner's point was to ask about what that gear was, but how WoW players' experiences from parsing would affect their wishes after moving here. :)

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Originally Posted by Taika

Which is why it's suggested as an optional feature reserved for only content where it's needed: extremes, savage and ultimate.

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didn't catch that part. I'll support that. Only available in Savage and higher = +1
Gonna argue like hell if that ever happens and people start asking for it in everything though. Deal?

Edit: Upon further introspection I'll add this: It should be a flag in party search as well. If you don't want to join a party with it enabled you should be able to partyfind one without it on. .. unless that was already mentioned.. if so yeah.. that.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

didn't catch that part. I'll support that. Only available in Savage and higher = +1
Gonna argue like hell if that ever happens and people start asking for it in everything though. Deal?

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I really think it should be a feature available for premade groups only. Something a party leader could enable or disable, and people could join PF groups based on if they're using one or not as they wish. And it could be set off by default in raid finder when solo queueing. I think people should be allowed to use it in other content too if they wish to do so though (again, only as a premade group where people have joined accepting it will be used).

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

And you really dont think that the moment it's included, even as a optional tool where it, in your opinion, is "needed" we're gonna start seeing threads wishing it's implemented on a wider scale because someone who, just as a example, wants to improve so they can do Extremes, Savage or Ultimate?

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Answered this here too. It should be a feature available for premade groups to use in all content they want to use it in.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

Congrats. PF just beame unuseable for anyone not comfortable with a parser, if we follow that line of thinking

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You mean people who don't wish to use a parser aren't likely to have as many groups available for them? That may be true, but they're also free to start their own (and people who usually want to use parsers or just don't care either way may join those too just as well). Just like now most Savage and Shinryu party finders are weekly farms: people who haven't cleared yet are unable to join those, but they're always free to start their own learning party (and people who have already cleared commonly join those). :)

I think it's also important to keep in mind that right now, most if not all of those PF groups are likely to be parsed by at least one person..

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Originally Posted by Taika

Which is why it's suggested as an optional feature reserved for only content where it's needed: extremes, savage and ultimate.

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And you really dont think that the moment it's included, even as a optional tool where it, in your opinion, is "needed" we're gonna start seeing threads wishing it's implemented on a wider scale because someone who, just as a example, wants to improve so they can do Extremes, Savage or Ultimate?

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Originally Posted by Taika

I really think it should be a feature available for premade groups only. Something a party leader could enable or disable

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Congrats. PF just beame unuseable for anyone not comfortable with a parser, if we follow that line of thinking

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Originally Posted by Taika

How does that have anything to do with parsers though? :D Seems like a question of really unbalanced gear design.

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I think the point was without parsers the players wouldn't have been aware they could be lazy and still perform well the rankings so wouldn't have changed their play style.

Having played WoW I think parsers caused just as much trouble as they helped. In static raid groups or as an individual they helped but the ability to display the results in chat frequently ended up more as griefing than help in PUGs. I also saw people I knew to be good players kicked just because they had a bad fight for whatever reason. I'd have no problem with a built in parser if it was only for the individual and the only way to see an aggregate for the player base would be on external websites that do rankings voluntarily.

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Originally Posted by Taika

How does that have anything to do with parsers though? :D Seems like a question of really unbalanced gear design.

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Nothing to do with parsers, they said they weren't clear on it so I told them why that was as a WoW player (off and on) myself. And yep, WoW is infamous for unbalanced gear design. Gearsets and trinkets can easily shift the balance of a spec from one end of the spectrum to another without any direct buffs/nerfs to those specs

I'm going to reiterate my stance on this subject again...



I was originally neutral on the debate of parsers in FFXIV.
The more I read the discussions, and the more I read from the 'anti-parser' crowd, my stance shifted, they had convinced me.

I am in favor of FFXIV having parsers.



A parser is just a tool, it is neither good, nor bad.
It just provides information.

It is up to the individual to use them properly.
Regardless of parsers being sanctioned or not, Harassment is still against the Terms of Service.



From what I've read about the Final Fantasy log site, parsers can be extremely valuable tools for improvement.
Being able to go back through a fight and see when abilities were used, how much was overhealed, and all these other statistics just shows to me how powerful a tool they can be for those who want to improve.

It is a shame that these tools are 'not available'.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

On a different note, please change the combat messages in chat. "X is dealt Y damage" is useless...Change it to "X's Broil dealt Y damage to Z." What is the point of even HAVING a combat log that doesn't log the darned combat?! I mean, due to PING and/or the way the system works, I often have messages out of whack. It shows that I used an attack (instant!) then it shows to me damage made by someone else, then it shows me damage done by my instant attack...It's ridiculous...

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I'd rather they delete the combat log or make it less parseable, so it only logs damage you make, and only logs crit damage and healing from anyone else. As it is, the combat log is useless because it blows by too fast to actually read it in a party of 8.

If you would rather people get really mean about it, this data is always going to be sent over the wire, so instead of sending numbers send %'s. That way nobody knows the exact damage they are doing except relative to other players attacking the same target as a floating point value that has no intrisic meaning outside combat with that monster/boss.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'd rather they delete the combat log or make it less parseable, so it only logs damage you make, and only logs crit damage and healing from anyone else. As it is, the combat log is useless because it blows by too fast to actually read it in a party of 8.

If you would rather people get really mean about it, this data is always going to be sent over the wire, so instead of sending numbers send %'s. That way nobody knows the exact damage they are doing except relative to other players attacking the same target as a floating point value that has no intrisic meaning outside combat with that monster/boss.

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Character Config -> Log Window Settings -> Scroll down to "Battle" -> Tab to "Battle" -> Uncheck everything that isn't under the "You" tab

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Nothing to do with parsers, they said they weren't clear on it so I told them why that was as a WoW player (off and on) myself. And yep, WoW is infamous for unbalanced gear design. Gearsets and trinkets can easily shift the balance of a spec from one end of the spectrum to another without any direct buffs/nerfs to those specs

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Thank you very much for the clarification there ^u^

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

She was answering an off-topic question by Dualgunner.

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Well, to be fair it was closer to clarifying a point I made.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Unfortunately, I have nothing but anecdotal evidence. You know, things former WoW players have told me. To make things a bit clearer, most people I've talked to are not hardcore raiders.

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That's fair enough: I'm in much the same boat, save most of my friends coming over from WoW are raiders so it would make sense.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Raiders have different reasons for leaving than casuals. Casual players have told me they left WoW because of the bad community. They have blamed both the cross-server party finder and the misuse of Recount for ruining the community.

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Fair enough, but I think that every community can be declared "horrible" and "toxic" if you asked the right people. IE, "toxic raiders" from the casual and "filthy casuals" from the elitist.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Raiders tell me they left because of bad class balance, mandatory gear, and a loot system which makes it pure luck to get the needed gear.

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This was the point I made earlier, which I would argue is on-topic because it was me providing a possible explanation aside from parsers as to why people would leave WoW.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

The only thing relevant to this discussion is the belief parsers turn good gaming communities into bad gaming communities.

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Actually it's relevant in this discussion as a counterpoint to that belief. If people are leaving due to bad gear design and not parser overlays, then it follows that their problem was not that parsers had affected the community in any way.

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Since I am not an employee of Blizzard, I do not have access to the data needed to support this claim.

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Fair enough once more. I do not have any data needed to detract from it, however the positive claim does still rest on your end.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

All I have is my eight years of experience with the game, and based upon that experience, I have concluded parsers, and their frequent misuse, hurt the game more than they improve it.

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That's an impressive streak but as I'm sure you know, can't really pass as evidence that parsers are a net negative to a game.

I do, however, respect your opinion and how you came to possess it. I merely disagree with it.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I do, however, respect your opinion and how you came to possess it. I merely disagree with it.

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And I respect your opinion too! /big lalafell hug :D

Now, I've been thinking... I know, I know. That's dangerous. :p

But I wonder if Square Enix would be willing to introduce an in game parser, similar in design to what the OP suggested, for a three month trial period?

That way the devs can discern its impact on the game, both positively and negatively.
Afterwards, SE can either implement the parser permanently or disable it depending on what they discover.

Such a move on the part of Square Enix would certainly lay this frequent argument to rest. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

And you really dont think that the moment it's included, even as a optional tool where it, in your opinion, is "needed" we're gonna start seeing threads wishing it's implemented on a wider scale because someone who, just as a example, wants to improve so they can do Extremes, Savage or Ultimate?

Congrats. PF just beame unuseable for anyone not comfortable with a parser, if we follow that line of thinking

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No offense, but if you're uncomfortable with parses in Savage, you likely have no business being in it. I know that might sound a bit callous, however this is content intended to push players. One or two people underperforming can be the difference between wiping to enrage all night or getting your clear. Learning parties aren't likely to turn this feature on, so people will have options. It keep places accountability on everyone in content that matters.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No offense, but if you're uncomfortable with parses in Savage, you likely have no business being in it. I know that might sound a bit callous, however this is content intended to push players. One or two people underperforming can be the difference between wiping to enrage all night or getting your clear. Learning parties aren't likely to turn this feature on, so people will have options. It keep places accountability on everyone in content that matters.

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No offense, but you COMPLETELY missed my entire point.

Unless you explicitly lock it to Extremes/Savage/Ultimate there's nothing stopping people from turning on parsers for anything else (and history will show that yes, they will. WoW has people parsing in leveling dungeons after all)

And if you limit it to just Extremes/Savage/Ultimate you open up for people to complain about not getting parser acess so they can train and become good enough for Extremes/Savage/Ultimate.

But why am I even bothering. This is has been discussed time and time and time again, but those in favour of having parser software implemented officially both cannot catch the hint that SE has said no, and it's a no they've shown no sign of revoking since unlike those begging for official parsing tools, SE realises the negative effect it's given to have on the community.

Honestly, if you're so desperate to minmax your gameplay, I question why you're even sticking with a game that clearly wasnt designed around it being a necessity (not counting content like Ultimate)

(And yes, if I'm coming across as agressive, I'm sorry, but I'm sick and tired of seeing this topic come up, and it's increasingly annoying the sheer ammount of disrespect is being shown towards the people who dont immediately agree about the need for official parsing tools)

PS. please do explain to me why I should have to be comfortable with something that doesnt have official company support, but was forced on FF14 by a tiny and INCREDIBLY vocal minority of players. Or did you forget that ACT wasnt developed by SE?

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

But I wonder if Square Enix would be willing to introduce an in game parser, similar in design to what the OP suggested, for a three month trial period?

That way the devs can discern its impact on the game, both positively and negatively.
Afterwards, SE can either implement the parser permanently or disable it depending on what they discover.

Such a move on the part of Square Enix would certainly lay this frequent argument to rest. :cool:

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This is a very good idea and I've also mentioned it before in past threads like this.

Simple fact is none of us knows if an official parser would make the game's community better, worse, or simply the exact same as it is now. The only way to see what will happen is for SE to try it and analyze the difference.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

you open up for people to complain about not getting parser acess so they can train and become good enough for Extremes/Savage/Ultimate.

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Who cares?
People complain about literally anything. We've had people complain about Ultimate's entire existence, all the way up to garbage like complaining about not being able to play as children. This isn't even an argument.

Edit: Also, you mention disrespect, but the person you replied to showed no disrespect at all to you. You act as if anti-parsers stand against toxicity but your posts seem hostile regardless of whoever you reply to, and it's usually based on the fact they disagree with you. It's hard to empathize with "anti-parsing" when people like you get hostile.