What is this new anti dps healer attitude?

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Originally Posted by Taika

For healers it's probably the most important of all the classes that you're always looking what the mobs are casting. That's what the focus target function is for. If you don't know what the enemies are casting, you can't pre-emptively heal, and healer gameplay is all about pre-emptive healing.

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I look for the telegraphed actions, as the one consistent thing about every boss is that they always repeat patterns. Boss does X, so next thing will be Y, start casting Z. If you wait until you see the cast bar, it will always be too late unless it's a very long cast. Because none of the healers need to be in the face of the boss, you can rely on whatever big action happens. If you have an exceptionally good tank that knows which actions can be canceled, this of course would throw off what I'd be looking for. In regular trash mobs, sometimes tanks cancel things, and I cancel casting party heals because they're not needed and go back to spot healing.

Also people learn things in different ways, I memorize audio-visual cues, not text cues. This is why I miss some text cues, but when I see people heading for the puddle I know what they are avoiding.

As a PLD, I appreciate a Healer who does DPS. If I'm not dead, and our DPS are not dead, we're all clear.

Also, I see it as part of my job that when the damage is heavy or someone goes down to hit Hallowed Ground, then lean heavy on Cover, Benediction, Intervention, etc, to make sure the Healer can regain control without worrying about more deaths. Healers get a lot of shit in this game. Do what your role allows you to make their job easier.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I look for the telegraphed actions, as the one consistent thing about every boss is that they always repeat patterns. Boss does X, so next thing will be Y, start casting Z. If you wait until you see the cast bar, it will always be too late unless it's a very long cast.

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Except in difficult content like Savage, the moves aren't usually telegraphed, so you have nothing but cast bars. :) This is true from very first raid content in this game and things like Twintania's Death Sentence. And when there are telegraphs, they to my knowledge appear at the same time with the cast bar or when the bar is finished.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

People who say that healers should not DPS are just ignorant people.

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a good player knows when to do and when not to do things. I've seen tanks die due to healers dpsing. (and in b4 rude ass comments, not just my g/f) Most healers likre the op tbh, have not adjusted to the changes in SB. tanks no longer have the defense boost buff, and only have reduced damage buffs. Drks only get 2 1 from their class then rampart, then they have the roll skill parry booster that is it really. untill 70 drk only have 3 buffs to help them out. And even the darkest night only helps out so much.

When mobs are using tank busters that hit for 50%-90% hp, like the last boss in the castrum that does a 50% hp hit, and bleed. Then you got ivan who can 1 shot people with slaughter strike.

then lets not forget shinryu, and healers causing wipes due to no mp due to trying to dps


tbh most people ignore 1/2 their kit by lack of using enmity reducers when needed, not curing well. Not using the correct cure/stance when needed list goes on.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

then lets not forget shinryu, and healers causing wipes due to no mp due to trying to dps

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Or could it be, perhaps, the people who are messing up mechanics and dying over and over, requiring extra healing and raises, who are causing the wipes, and not the healers who are covering the healing requirements and contributing to DPS while handling mechanics? ;)

Was watching another person do that fight yesterday and they had a WHM with 1500 DPS who also handled healing well. The actual healing requirements for that fight are pretty low, so healer DPS only becomes an issue if other people aren't handling their part. I really loathe the attitude that healer's job is to babysit tanks and DDs who are making any imaginable mistake and then if it results in a wipe it's blamed on the healers...

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Made up statistics to push an agenda brought to you by Thunda!

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

You forgot that not only are they made up they're also so completely unrealistic.

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it isn't made up actually, not a lot of healers (like the op) have adjusted well to the changes. When i run dungeons with my g.f I watch her die to trash mobs about 1 per dungeon due to the healer dpsing. In fact we queue'ed for leveling and got bardems mette (the xaela in azim steppe dungeon) and this healer was just standing their casting a dps skill once every 4 second as my g/f hp pool was going down. She had no CD up as they were all used at the pull.

I've also seen the same thing with other tanks. My g/f and said tanks are not large pulling, are using all cd well.. the healer just wants to dps. This kinda stuff happening is making me hesitant to lvl my drk to 70, i want to... but ya.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I really loathe the attitude that healer's job is to babysit tanks and DDs who are making any imaginable mistake and then if it results in a wipe it's blamed on the healers...

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the healers job is to heal, if people mess up keep healing. Not healing out of spite makes you look immature, people are not exactly helping out others in the fight, and not all the aoe is easy to avoid.Most of my fights were wipes due to healers. Everyone avoided all required aoe, only time people died was non avoidable aoe not being cured.

i've ran the fight a good 5 times(4 wipes each), and it does have a high cure requirement. maybe do the content instead of just watching it. :)

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

the healers job is to heal, if people mess up keep healing. Not healing out of spite makes you look immature, people are not exactly helping out others in the fight, and not all the aoe is easy to avoid.

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I didn't say anything about refusing to heal out of spite, all I said if healers aren't doing mistakes but others are, you can't blame the healers for the wipes.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

Everyone avoided all required aoe, only time people died was non avoidable aoe not being cured.

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Well this is not the situation I was talking about, I was talking about healers who are covering the healing requirements (unavoidable damage) of the fight.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

i've ran the fight a good 5 times(4 wipes each), and it does have a high cure requirement. maybe do the content instead of just watching it. :)

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I have done it on AST several times, but haven't parsed my runs so couldn't quote my DPS numbers, so used an example I saw from a parse. I have as many clears as you but can't say I've seen that many wipes. :P

happen to me most of the time on dungeon, when im getting a ton of damage without seeing any incoming heal, then i see some stone spell on the mobs XD, sometimes healers do neglect their job, cant do anything since they are locked with the animation, but i appreciate if they assess the situation first before doing some dps, if you think the tank pull too much then forget dpsing for a while, because they need you full time at healing, if you think the tank can take a punch with minimal healing then dps at will.

if i die its fine, im doing my job, keeping my CD at a good rotation, pull mob depends on the capacity of mydps, make sure aggro is on me ALWAYS, the rest is up to the healer, we can keep doing the dungeon all night until such time everyone understand their role and purpose.

real story: we got 3 wipe straight, then the healer said "OK, ill going full heal, LOL" we finish the game EZ

lesson: just keep in mind your role to the team, party first before self satisfaction.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

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And I have seen just as many bad tanks who overpull and then bitch about the healer not keeping up despite them popping 0 defensive cooldowns.

One tank in particular stood out to me, he pulled everything in the initial section of Ala Mhigo, I was the healer and burned everything trying to keep him alive.

They did not use a single defensive cooldown, died, and then I imploded. He proceeds to go "Oh I guess I will have to do baby pulls cause of our incompetent healer." When I told him he pulled too much he goes on about how he did that pull before just fine with no issue. I also told him that he should not pull like it was 3 weeks ago in an ilvl sync'd dungeon. He proceeded to leave and we got a replacement newbie tank 30 seconds later and completed the dungeon with no deaths.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

it isn't made up actually, not a lot of healers (like the op) have adjusted well to the changes. When i run dungeons with my g.f I watch her die to trash mobs about 1 per dungeon due to the healer dpsing. In fact we queue'ed for leveling and got bardems mette (the xaela in azim steppe dungeon) and this healer was just standing their casting a dps skill once every 4 second as my g/f hp pool was going down. She had no CD up as they were all used at the pull.

I've also seen the same thing with other tanks. My g/f and said tanks are not large pulling, are using all cd well.. the healer just wants to dps. This kinda stuff happening is making me hesitant to lvl my drk to 70, i want to... but ya.

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The hill you're dying on here is that out of 1000 instances, say, only 100 are wiped due to non healer screw ups.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

I've come across a lot more people who really dislike dps healers.

And its not other healers telling me this. It's tanks mainly. And dps.
I've already seen this a couple of times in Heavensward but now it seems even more common.

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These are just bad players, who don't know how to play right.
A good Healer always do dps, when it's possible.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

And I have seen just as many bad tanks who overpull and then bitch about the healer not keeping up despite them popping 0 defensive cooldowns. One tank in particular stood out to me, he pulled everything in the initial section of Ala Mhigo, I was the healer and burned everything trying to keep him alive.

They did not use a single defensive cooldown, died, and then I imploded. He proceeds to go "Oh I guess I will have to do baby pulls cause of our incompetent healer." When I told him he pulled too much he goes on about how he did that pull before just fine with no issue. I also told him that he should not pull like it was 3 weeks ago in an ilvl sync'd dungeon. He proceeded to leave and we got a replacement newbie tank 30 seconds later and completed the dungeon with no deaths.

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experienced that earlier too. I queue for roulette and get into Ala Mhigo. Tank pulls everything, healer did keep up but was spamming Cure and Cure II like no tomorrow.

Healer then asked if we could slow a little bit down, and tank starts insulting the healer (for not dps'ing and healing quick enough) even so he didn't die (yet). Next pull and thanks to SE for putting up some gates otherwise the tank probably would have pulled the whole dungeon including bosses, stands there with a bunch of mobs, not popping one cool down.

Healer still keeps up but extremely struggling, again tank starts insulting the healer and then his dps friend, decided to make it "funnier", stepping into every avoidable aoe etc.

Then the first boss, tank and dps friends starts a battle with the healer via chat, after about 8 minutes and I kid you not, I was asking if we are going to chat that boss to death or actually going to pull today. Next I know it, vote goes up to kick the healer, I declined and woopdiedoo I am evicted as dps from the duty. Since I wasn't agreeing with the healer kick.

While I do understand different play style, this was more of a lets take our bad mood out on the healer, right from the start of the dungeon. Sad that people need to go that route just to mess up every bodies day, instead of actually playing their job correctly, aka at least using one cool down when pulling 25 mobs lol.

Wow, so many non-healers are convinced that they are actually expert healers in disguise, immediately able to identify when any random PUG healer screws up because they're so tunnel-visioned on the healer's bar rather than their own. Who knew? I guess we'll see huge queues for healers from now on since all of these gifted non-healers will be logging on and showing us all how it's done, right?

What ever MMO you play healing follows a few fundamental basics.

- There is an unavoidable amount of damage a healer needs to heal through, which means x% of the healers mana is reserved for doing so.

- The lower the damage and the lesser geared the healer, the more mana the healer has to reserve.

-There is x % mana a healer will have to reserve for avoidable damage, people standing in fire and what not.

- When a healer is dpsing he is spending mana, if the avoidable damage exceeds the expectations you will run oom.
Spending 15% mana early fight on damage spells, might bite you back at the last 15% of the boss.
With in that time frame a lot can go wrong.

- When a healer is dpsing he has a global cooldown, which means he can get behind on healing when people take avoidable damage.
People make mistakes, and as Murphy's law dictates they do it at the worst moments.

- The overall performance of a DPS in ARR is lower than in MMO x were people would be given the tools to view their performance and compare.
Yes there are 3rd party parsers, but by default ARR wants to hide people their performance.
Thus the difference between similar geared DPS can be significant.

- As healer it is now harder to figure out how fast the boss will be killed , thus how much mana needs to be reserved.

-With randoms you need time to figure out how often they take avoidable damage.

- Even with less damage from the healer, the DD should succeed.
Though when it requires a short burst it would be favorable to help out.



The paradox of dpsing as healer is that the lower DPS the longer the fight, thus the amount of mana I need to reserve for unavoidable damage is larger.
Ultimately what low DPS does is lowering the amount of avoidable damage you can take.



Thus dpsing as healer is in most cases a high risk vs a low reward.

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Originally Posted by Sneakaboo

Spending 15% mana early fight on damage spells, might bite you back at the last 15% of the boss.
With in that time frame a lot can go wrong.

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This isn't actually true, since as a healer you will regenerate tons of MP between the early stages of the fight and the later, difficult phases. All healers have their own tools for MP regeneration and in addition to that ranged DDs have refresh and caster DDs have mana shift. As such, it makes absolutely no sense to not DPS at beginning of fights in effort to save MP for later parts.

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Thus dpsing as healer is in most cases a high risk vs a low reward.

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As explained above, your argument for "high risk" isn't true, and as healer DPS is really strong in this game, I wouldn't exactly call it low reward either.

You know, three weeks ago I was getting yelled at for not doing enough DPS. Now I'm getting yelled at for doing ANY DPS.

Make up your minds.

I'd argue that the only healer with any dps worth actually using is WHM, due to both hitting hard and having good MP management. AST and SCH can do a little damage, but it's so expensive they need to start begging the ranged/friendly caster for their own resources, hampering those jobs dps fairly significantly. (Not to mention Ranged should be burning Refresh/Tact ASAP anyway so they can manage their hate and let tanks tank in dps stance.) Saving refresh for the healer with no clue how to manage their MP is poor play as it forces the tanks to spend more time in tank stance/using hate combos.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I'd argue that the only healer with any dps worth actually using is WHM, due to both hitting hard and having good MP management. AST and SCH can do a little damage, but it's so expensive they need to start begging the ranged/friendly caster for their own resources, hampering those jobs dps fairly significantly. (Not to mention Ranged should be burning Refresh/Tact ASAP anyway so they can manage their hate and let tanks tank in dps stance.) Saving refresh for the healer with no clue how to manage their MP is poor play as it forces the tanks to spend more time in tank stance/using hate combos.

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You obviously have no experience or knowledge of playing healers, casters, or ranged DDs in SB.

I've had it worse playing as RDM. I have had healers tell me "don't expect to get much healing out of me, Mr. Dualcast cure." So many boss fights I've had to completely stop dpsing and heal myself, the final 3.0 dungeons are the worst. I've said it once before, Healers are the most sensitive player pool in this game.

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Originally Posted by Taika

You obviously have no experience or knowledge of playing healers, casters, or ranged DDs in SB.

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MCH/RDM/SCH. Not much has really changed otherwise except I have to watch my heat meter. o3o I do know how to manage my hate quite well.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I've had it worse playing as RDM. I have had healers tell me "don't expect to get much healing out of me, Mr. Dualcast cure." So many boss fights I've had to completely stop dpsing and heal myself, the final 3.0 dungeons are the worst. I've said it once before, Healers are the most sensitive player pool in this game.

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Any healer who said that needs a good slap in the face.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I've had it worse playing as RDM. I have had healers tell me "don't expect to get much healing out of me, Mr. Dualcast cure." So many boss fights I've had to completely stop dpsing and heal myself, the final 3.0 dungeons are the worst. I've said it once before, Healers are the most sensitive player pool in this game.

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Any healer telling you that can go eat a bag of male genetalia. That would be like refusing to heal a SMN because they have a heal. As for being sensitive, your mileage may very.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I've had it worse playing as RDM. I have had healers tell me "don't expect to get much healing out of me, Mr. Dualcast cure." So many boss fights I've had to completely stop dpsing and heal myself, the final 3.0 dungeons are the worst. I've said it once before, Healers are the most sensitive player pool in this game.

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I think i can speak for EVERY healer here, that has some braincells, (if this is true what you're telling - never heard something this extremly in that direction), that we dont share that opinion. it's just utter bullshit...
and about the sensitive part, dont you generalize and exaggerate it abit..?

i feel like something is really disconcerting about these threads these last days, some weeks ago, people cried about healers not dpsing, now its about healers dpsing

is the situation really this bad? i cant see it - i mean sure there has been bad situations, but there allways will be. ? i've come nicely through the content of stormblood so far.. there have been bad moments, but for the most part it was funny mastering the new dungeos and so on - speaking as a solo player using mostly IM

pls for gods sake, just respect the others class role. just think twice before reacting.. dont start a fuss without a real reason

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Originally Posted by Fukuro

I think i can speak for EVERY healer here, that has some braincells, (if this is true what you're telling - never heard something this extremly in that direction), that we dont share that opinion. it's just utter bullshit...
and about the sensitive part, dont you generalize and exaggerate it abit..?

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Not at all, healers have been flustered I suppose is the right word in the case, since 2.0. The core of the class, which is explained on through the novice hall, is to weave in damage while maintaining party health. As ironic as it maybe a healer is supposed to find balance between damage and healing where a RDM is supposed to find balance between white and black.

If you only choose to heal, you're in the end not playing to your fullest, and by choosing to heal in a limited fraction you're not healping either. In my cases of healers refusing to heal me, because I can in some capacity self sustain as RDM, is becoming more of a thing, mostly due to healers seeing the party composed with a RDM as a healer.

That is more ignorance on the part of healers, as RDM healing is supposed to be utilized in very limited situations, usually as a last resort or to help top off the party after raid wide damage is dealt, or in the event of a transition like Alexander going from part 1 to part 2.

Many healers are having this crisis because most can't find this middle ground to stay in, or they chose to be on one end of the spectrum. When asked to maintain a balance, many healers historically on this forum have thrown up their arms more times then I can count over how their job role should be handled. Though many healers have torn apart those that think they don't need to play more balanced, the player pool still remains flustered.

Got flamed another day for asking the healer to help dps. Not sure if the others were queuing with him, but found it really idiot

I changed my strategy though, if the healer is just heal-botting, I make sure to stand on all orange areas. They are going to heal anyway, so better make their work worth it lol

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Originally Posted by HELLruler

Got flamed another day for asking the healer to help dps. Not sure if the others were queuing with him, but found it really idiot

I changed my strategy though, if the healer is just heal-botting, I make sure to stand on all orange areas. They are going to heal anyway, so better make their work worth it lol

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That reminds me of a FC mate who plays DRG. He stood in an AoE on purpose. "Oh no I'm gonna be in this AoE." "gotta make arnar work" And I'm like "dang it I'm trying to esuna" because our tank had multiple debuffs on him. And he was like "get gud".

But I agree if you have a healbot, STAND IN ALL THE AOES :D

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Originally Posted by Taika

You obviously have no experience or knowledge of playing healers, casters, or ranged DDs in SB.

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Come on Taika. You should know better than reply to Thunda_Cat when she makes ridiculous statements.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

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the only thing i can say to this is, that im sorry for healers like these - and as a defense, i've never seen something like that extreme nor heard something like this from other dps, and again, a healer with a normal functioning brain wouldn't say something like that. i plan on lvling redmage next. maybe i'll change my mind, but i wouldn't bet on it - it sounds to insane to me, that i could imagine it acutally happen to me (maybe some "player" with a flaming personality that had a bad day could be that insane)

about that sensitiv part - i still cant give you that point - there are very (very, very) sensitive people in this game and i met many of those, form ALL class roles, in all those years, i still can't distinguish a players attidute by his class role...
there are players struggeling with the balance. healers that cant controll healing/dpsing, tanks that pull everything or dont know their rotations, dps that facewall every monster and dont dare to move, or neither do know their rotations... and all of those are a small percentage of the acutall player base - and thats why i aked you if you're not generalizing and exaggerating it abit

To me it's simple.

So, first of all, when I tank I use my mitigation skills to keep myself alive and make the healer's job easier, I don't do it so the healer can DPS.

However, if the healer can DPS then go for it, as long as their fulfilling their primary role of healing me and the party it's not a problem. In this case, if the DPS roles decided they didn't like this, I'd side with the healer.

On the flip side, if a healer doesn't feel comfortable DPSing for whatever reason, then as long they're reasonably busy with healing I'm okay with this too. If very little healing is needed they should do DPS.

To sum up, DPS'ing shouldn't be at the expense of healing but healing only shouldn't come at the expense of doing DPS where possible.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

That reminds me of a FC mate who plays DRG. He stood in an AoE on purpose. "Oh no I'm gonna be in this AoE." "gotta make arnar work" And I'm like "dang it I'm trying to esuna" because our tank had multiple debuffs on him. And he was like "get gud".

But I agree if you have a healbot, STAND IN ALL THE AOES :D

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Thank you for linking to my favorite Larryzaur video (the benediction to keep him from dying on an instakill mechanic was one of the most brilliant things I've ever seen come out of this game).

If your name is not Larryzaur, DON'T DO THIS, lol

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Originally Posted by Arutan

Because when you get healer dpsing in the final trial of SB while people die, you can't really expect them to be appreciated. And then they're out of mana because of dpsing so we wipe. Thanks healers for your great work.

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It's all those DPS that want fast queue's so they play healing specs and proceed to DPS anyways...they should just make damage from healers negligible in dungeons and give them more utility/increase healing requirements so they have something to do. If you are going to have a trinity game, make each role unique.

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Originally Posted by Atlas-04

Are you letting people die? If so than you aren't doing your job and should focus more on healing.

Is everyone surviving and doing a good job? Then tell the dps to stop watching you and go back to doing damage. Seriously what pos dps can notice a healer doing damage when the boss is covered in a million other explosions and spell effects.

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its more the tank ... being a healer / tank main myself it find it frustrating that all the healers that are DPSing leave my hp at less that 30% (almost anything can 1hit me)

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Everyone seems to think that they're an expert when it comes to healing, though, like my friend who calls out every debuff and says 'heal please' periodically as though I'm sleeping at the wheel despite having been our group's main healer for about 15 years across multiple games. I've developed my own sadistic minigames for him in retaliation to keep things exciting, such as the 'how low can his HP go before I Benediction?' game (which was more fun when I stayed in CS) and the 'Regen for everyone, enjoy working twice as hard' minigame. I think non-healers get a bit paranoid about their HP levels if they don't trust the healer, and since it's quite easy to die in FFXIV they're just being insecure. Maybe the tanks are feeling wobbly without their Stoneskin/Bloodbath and massive array of old cooldowns too.

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i think its more healers seem to think its ok to leave your hp at 20% as they start to dps

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

99% of people dying is their own fault due to standing in the bad. People rarely die due to me dpsing.
I am already forced to dps less because some tanks are too squishy and cba.

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well are you leaving the tank at less than 40% hp when u start dpsing? maybe you koticed the tank slowing his pulls down if you do... if so that meand the tank dont trust you because your leaving his hp stupid low and he can die from any medium powered hit

Holy necro batman.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, you should be holding off Blood Price. Holy spam does significantly more damage than anything a DRK can do. So WHM takes priority.

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no it dont because what happens when the whm rakes agro and dies because the drk has no mana cus he was spamming unleash or abyssal drain.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Mmm .I have seen a strange change in healer attitudes. before Stormblood I rarely have my HP drop less than 30-40% usually, now I'm finding healers that are risking much more and they're letting my HP drop less than 20-10%, sometimes they even let me die. When I check it, I've seen them casting Malefic, Stone IV or Broil when my HP is 5%. I think they ar risking much more now they don't have cleric stance, and some people can be annoyed. I get annoyed when I die and I see the healer casting DPS spells.

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this is my point

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Holy necro batman.

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Indeed! Since it's already rezzed though...

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Originally Posted by MishkaRose

no it dont because what happens when the whm rakes agro and dies because the drk has no mana cus he was spamming unleash or abyssal drain.

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I'm no DRK expert but I know I've full on PoM+CS Holy spammed on DRKs before and not pulled off of them.

At the risk of being a meme perhaps the DRKs that are losing threat to their healer need to improve.