Dps As Healer

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Originally Posted by BCRD

I agree.

SCH is my main and I enjoy helping out full-time during battle which includes a lot of DPS'ing. In addition to be baffled to the "I only heal" crowd but I'm highly concerned that so many people actually feel comfortable bringing that type philosophy to a party setting. I would feel super uncomfortable being that lazy and expecting others to deal.

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I physically cringe when I see a bunch of healers standing around doing nothing, or even worse, using various AoE healing abilities during the Life Gate DPS check during Dun Scaith. I make a point of /a'ing: "Isn't it amazing how there is literally 0 damage during this phase? It's almost like everyone has time to switch to their DPS stance! :o"

It's not about "every healer HAS to DPS", it's about respect. Queueing for multiplayer, team oriented content, and sitting there doing the absolute bare minimum, and this goes the 1 button DPS players too, is disrespectful to everyone else in that party.

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Originally Posted by Miste

You seem to crusade for WHM equality but honestly they don't have it that bad. They've never been locked out of groups (like AST was in the past) except for the top tier speedrun groups which is only <1% of the player base (and even if you lower ASTs healing they are skilled enough to keep using ASTs anyway) or if the party had WHM already since stacking same jobs is bad (but that is true for any healer type).

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This is not entirely true. Based on parses uploaded, both Scholar and Astro are taken nearly 50% more frequently compared to White Mage. That means it isn't just speed runners, but a larger portion of the raid community as a whole. It largely stems from the fact White Mage is, currently, a weaker version of Astro. Whether they ultimately weaken Astro's healing or not, it needs some form of drawback. At the moment, there is simply no weakness to Astro and it's ridiculous utility.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

It's because this is a game where you have to group up with up to 23 other people to get stuff done. If you're not going to do your best just because "it's my sub", then frankly it just shows disrespect to the other people who's time you're wasting.

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Here, enjoy my upvote :)

Ha I just started healing some endgame stuff starting it a step at a time I healed void ark yesterday and my damage was just not that great in celric Im using my dots and broil what am I missing on scholar to put up higher numbers I think I was only at like 400. I have the level 250 crafted book

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

It's because this is a game where you have to group up with up to 23 other people to get stuff done. If you're not going to do your best just because "it's my sub", then frankly it just shows disrespect to the other people who's time you're wasting.

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I agree on that but (and I might be wrong) those fights are not designed to be needing a healer to DPS are they ? (and if they are, forget what I said)
Basically, we are supposed to be abble to clean the content with the team we have.

Some healer might be lazy and use the "it's my sub" excuse of course but I've met healers who suffered when they were forced to DPS cause they were not used to / abble to manage it and were not given the time to learn how to do both :/
We don't expect a BLM to heal if the healer has trouble do we ?
Why do we expect healers to DPS if the DPS are not good enought ?
It's a lot of work and pressure you are putting on someone's shoulder and I would not be surprised if it's part of the reason we have less healers than DPS who are just expected to do damage.

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Originally Posted by Celef

We don't expect a BLM to heal if the healer has trouble do we ?

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A healer have tools to DPS consequently, a BLM don't have any tools to heal properly.
That's the difference, plus not doing your best during runs is just a disrespect towards 3,7 or 23 others players which pay a sub too.

Idk I always found this pretty simple. If my healer does dps, I dodge all AoE. If they don't dps, I stay in AoE as long as it won't kill me. This way I do a bit more damage and healer has something to do. If the healer doesn't want to dps AND wants you to dodge, they are lazy and should probably just kick em.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

A healer have tools to DPS consequently, a BLM don't have any tools to heal properly.
That's the difference, plus not doing your best during runs is just a disrespect towards 3,7 or 23 others players which pay a sub too.

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^ Pretty much this.

Cleric Stance isn't there just so you can clear solo MSQ content, it's part of you toolkit you should find a place to use wherever you can. We wouldn't have such a myriad of different attack skills if it was never intended to use them. Why give us Stone 3/Broil/Aero 3/Assize (the damage portion), if we were never meant to DPS? The ARR skills would suffice for solo story content, as easy as it is, heck they could remove every DPS ability and give us just 1 button to do it, then it would be apparent that we're only meant to heal most of the time.

Regarding BLM's healing, while not optimal in the slightest, at least they're trying. It can't be anything other than good intent if a BLM were to start spamming Physick when shit hits the fan. By the same token, going out of your way to deal damage when it is safe to do so is equally as amazing. It says so much about the player that says "I'm going to do more than is expected and help people kill stuff faster", than someone who sits there saying "I'm a healer, all I do is heal".

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Originally Posted by Watachy

A healer have tools to DPS consequently, a BLM don't have any tools to heal properly.
That's the difference, plus not doing your best during runs is just a disrespect towards 3,7 or 23 others players which pay a sub too.

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I agree with that but my main issue is the way those healers are treated.
When you come to a game and choose a healer class, what do you exepect ? Right, to heal !
Most of us were not prepared to DPS (yes novice hall telles you that but come one....did anyone really read those "tutorials" ? xD ) and where treated like shit when we said it or asked for tips on how to manage both (and when we failed at one of them when learning).
Again, I agree you may find lazy healers, but most of those that I met were pretty surprised to realise they were expected to DPS by others (especially by the way they were told so....)

I can easely understand why those healers tell you to get off if they kept being called various names during their learning ^^"

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Originally Posted by Miste

WHM is easier to heal on since they don't have oGCD cards to weave, but they were never supposed to be the safer choice.

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WHM was supposed to be the pure healer. The job that focuses on healing alone, and as a result would be better at it.
Yet this is kind of lost now that AST can heal as much as WHM and still use buffs as it's own unique thing.

AST can't be both. It can't have super strong buffs and strong heals. It is breaking healer balance and breaking the identity of WHM specifically. Nerfing their cards won't do anything because even smaller buffs is better than no buffs at all, WHM will be in the same spot it's in right now.

Yet giving WHM utility will only result in homogenization, where every healer has the same healing potential and the same utility. At that point I would just quit healing because it'll feel so boring being the same as the other healers with different animations.

Honestly the problem probably lies more in how poorly AST was designed. Instead of having its own unique way to heal, it just borrows off WHM and SCH kits and tries to make it their own. Then they added cards on top of that, which is the source of imbalance. AST is a WHM with cards, there's no denying it. I only hope SE has a plan on how to fix this.

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For raiding most group compositions are SCH + AST or SCH + WHM. Do you notice which healer seems to more often have a spot? SCH. So legit question but why do you only think AST needs to be nerfed? You do savage raids right? So you should know what the usual group compositions are like; so I am confused why you think only AST needs nerfing.

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Obviously Scholar needs some looking into. SE is apparently already addressing this. This though, so there's not much to say on it right now. We have no idea what they plan on doing with AST though, which is single handedly killing WHM. Now is the time to give feedback on what we think the job should aim for, not sit on our thumbs and blindly assume SE has it all figured out. If they did, AST wouldn't have been such a mess on release.

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Originally Posted by Celef

I can easely understand why those healers tell you to get off if they kept being called various names during their learning ^^"

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DPSing as a healer is a thing that need practice, if i see someone trying by struggling to keep a good DPS and the party alive i won't mind the fact that he prefer to stay focused on healing.
But as we stated before there is no real content out of Savage that requires a lot of healing.

Plus i just hate the lazy guys, you see easily the people that are trying and the ones /following with netflix on.

That's why i have to tag as a healer everywhere when i go on DF, too many lazy healers with there "let me play (be lazy) the way i want"

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This is not entirely true. Based on parses uploaded, both Scholar and Astro are taken nearly 50% more frequently compared to White Mage. That means it isn't just speed runners, but a larger portion of the raid community as a whole. It largely stems from the fact White Mage is, currently, a weaker version of Astro. Whether they ultimately weaken Astro's healing or not, it needs some form of drawback. At the moment, there is simply no weakness to Astro and it's ridiculous utility.

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FFlogs? You can't use that as a tool to judge frequency because not everyone uses it. More hardcore/competitive speed runs groups upload than normal groups or pug groups. So it would automatically be skewed.

It would be the same as judging the forums as a good indicator of the whole community even when a lot don't even come here or post here.

I've been part of the raid community since launch and I've never seen WHM's have any issues joining groups. I also raid on it from 2.0 to 3.0 and in 3.0 too so I have experience being one. If it was such large part of the community refusing 100% to take WHMs I would have seen some of it by now.

Also I never said AST doesn't need a drawback I said before they can nerf the cards or buff WHM utility np. Nerfing their healing potency to be weaker than WHM and SCH is a bad idea though. None of the healers should be weaker than the others at their primary function.

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Originally Posted by Miste

FFlogs? You can't use that as a tool to judge frequency because not everyone uses it. More hardcore/competitive speed runs groups upload than normal groups or pug groups. So it would automatically be skewed.

It would be the same as judging the forums as a good indicator of the whole community even when a lot don't even come here or post here.

I've been part of the raid community since launch and I've never seen WHM's have any issues joining groups. I also raid on it from 2.0 to 3.0 and in 3.0 too so I have experience being one. If it was such large part of the community refusing 100% to take WHMs I would have seen some of it by now.

Also I never said AST doesn't need a drawback I said before they can nerf the cards or buff WHM utility np. Nerfing their healing potency to be weaker than WHM and SCH is a bad idea though. None of the healers should be weaker than the others at their primary function.

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Likewise, we cannot use your claim of constantly seeing White Mages in Savage pugs because it's entirely anecdotal. I, for instance, see more and more parties outright mandating an Astro even over Scholar. FFlogs may not be a perfect representation, but it's the only numerical source we have. Keep in mind, your numbers are uploaded regardless if you even have a parse installed. If someone in your party does, you'll be on FFlogs should they choose to upload. And you might be amazed at how many pugs have a parse nowadays.

Because White Mage has always remained a stable in the raid tier. Only Creator has seen their sharp decline due to Astro's vastly superior utility. Using the same FFlog metric, it supports the notion Astro was sorely ignored throughout Gordias and Midas. The only outliner is Creator.

Doing so only homogenizes all three healers and robs their uniqueness. The only way White Mage can compete with Astro currently is to receive an equivalent to Balance. Otherwise, it will be increasingly ignored in favour of the other two healers. For comparison sake, the DPS roles are not made equal nor are tanks. Monks pull higher personal DPS over their melee counterparts and Warrior vastly outperforms Paladin or Dark Knight in raw DPS. Why couldn't this apply to healers?

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Originally Posted by Miste

None of the healers should be weaker than the others at their primary function.

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Random question since I've been seeing this go back and forth a bit between yourself and your opposition:

These are just arbitrary numbers, but if AST and SCH's were able to do approximately 500 HPS and WHM was able to do 700 HPS and the content only required 450 HPS, would you still be opposed to a lower healer potency for higher utility despite still being able to handle the HPS requirements just fine?

While I do believe all content should be able to be handled by all healer types, weaker potency doesn't' necessarily mean a job is incapable of handling it.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

These are just arbitrary numbers, but if AST and SCH's were able to do approximately 500 HPS and WHM was able to do 700 HPS and the content only required 450 HPS, would you still be opposed to a lower healer potency for higher utility despite still being able to handle the HPS requirements just fine?

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Why should one healer have a harder time healing than the others though? The co-healer will also have to deal with your lower healing potency and it makes the content not only harder for you but for them and the rest of your group. You need to be more skilled at the game and the job the lower your healing potency goes even if it is still above minimum the devs created it for.

Most players in this game choose the path of least resistance and if one or two out of the three healer jobs available is weaker at their primary purpose then they start getting locked out of groups like when HW first launched and AST was too weak at their heals.

To lower the healing potency for AST and SCH means that the devs would have to tune the fights around the lower potency healers. This would make WHM have way more healing than necessary and therefore way easier for them to heal. What does this accomplish exactly? People keep saying WHM has more healing than necessary (but lacking utility) right now but this just adds onto that and WHM would still be lacking utility and would have just useless excess healing power.

Either that or basically you guys just want the main compositions to be WHM + SCH or WHM + AST instead of what we have now which is SCH + WHM or SCH + AST because if they cut AST and SCH healing potency to be below WHM than most groups won't do SCH + AST since that is both the low potency healers and less safe and you would need more skill to do it without failing.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Likewise, we cannot use your claim of constantly seeing White Mages in Savage pugs because it's entirely anecdotal.

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That's fine. I admit I shouldn't have used the word never it was incorrect. Only SE can say whether or not WHMs are not being allowed into groups enough because they are the only ones with the statistics. In my experience I've never seen it happen and while it is possible it happens sometimes nerfing AST healing potency isn't the way to fix it. You don't need to crap on AST to fix WHM.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

For comparison sake, the DPS roles are not made equal nor are tanks. Monks pull higher personal DPS over their melee counterparts and Warrior vastly outperforms Paladin or Dark Knight in raw DPS. Why couldn't this apply to healers?

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It seems like they are planning to change WAR from what SE said recently about it. So they actually seem to be heading into homogenization whether certain people like it or not.

You can also see this with the AST Nocturnal buffs recently. Most compositions are SCH + AST or SCH + WHM and SE wants AST + WHM to be good enough as well so they keep trying to make people use that composition by making Nocturnal stronger.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Why should one healer have a harder time healing than the others though?

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Because that one healer offers more than the other that ONLY heals.
AST shouldn't be able to heal as much as WHM and offer utility. Likewise, WHM shouldn't offer utility while healing more than everyone else.
That balance needs to be in place, one healer shouldn't be able to do everything with no drawbacks like AST can currently.

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These are just arbitrary numbers, but if AST and SCH's were able to do approximately 500 HPS and WHM was able to do 700 HPS and the content only required 450 HPS

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This example from Ghishlain is exactly what I'm trying to convey.
With ASTs current buffing power, they should have lower healing potency, but not so low that they can't clear content. It should, however, be harder to heal than a WHM who specializes in only healing.
It'll also create an identity for both healers.

Also when Yoshi P was asked about healer balance and was told that AST has the same healing potency as WHM, he replied "for now". Lowering AST healing potency is quite possibly something being discussed at SE right now. It would be the better option than giving WHM utility like AST and destroying anything unique between them.

I understand AST came from hard times, and even the thought of nerfing them now probably sounds crazy, but it needs it. AST offers too much to the party right now.

It's worth a try, really. Their toolkit even reflects a playstyle that emphasizes needing more heals. Lower MP costs, higher MP restoration, spells that cut MP costs. This is all Implying that AST would need the extra MP because they should be healing more often.
If things stay the same, then we'd need to cut their MP restoration in half, raise their spell costs and lower their spell speed increase when in diurnal. Their toolkit is still based off a lower healing potency playstyle, but if you want their healing potency to stay the same as WHM, their tools need to reflect the bigger heals.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Why should one healer have a harder time healing than the others though? The co-healer will also have to deal with your lower healing potency and it makes the content not only harder for you but for them and the rest of your group. You need to be more skilled at the game and the job the lower your healing potency goes even if it is still above minimum the devs created it for.

Most players in this game choose the path of least resistance and if one or two out of the three healer jobs available is weaker at their primary purpose then they start getting locked out of groups like when HW first launched and AST was too weak at their heals.

To lower the healing potency for AST and SCH means that the devs would have to tune the fights around the lower potency healers. This would make WHM have way more healing than necessary and therefore way easier for them to heal. What does this accomplish exactly? People keep saying WHM has more healing than necessary (but lacking utility) right now but this just adds onto that and WHM would still be lacking utility and would have just useless excess healing power.

Either that or basically you guys just want the main compositions to be WHM + SCH or WHM + AST instead of what we have now which is SCH + WHM or SCH + AST because if they cut AST and SCH healing potency to be below WHM than most groups won't do SCH + AST since that is both the low potency healers and less safe and you would need more skill to do it without failing.

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I was playing more devil's advocate than anything else with my post. I personally don't mind the lower potency as long as the utility provided is powerful (IE, AST's 3.0 heal kit combined with their 3.4 utility kit - probably keep the changes to Lightspeed, Synestra, and Collective Unconsciousness too) as long as they can meet the proper checks. Then I would leave it up to the players to decide what they want to do - safer healing for longer fights or shorter fights with the potential to skip mechanics that'll make healing easier (assuming they maintain current battle content design).

The key thing to me is maintaining uniqueness of each healer while ensuring they're viability. Unfortunately AST's viability was questionable at the onset of 3.0 due to (1) AST's kit and (2) the high tuning of Gordias. Since 3.0, both of these items have changed dramatically. If you took AST's kit as I spoke in the parenthesis, I bet they would do just fine in the 3.4 Creator tier.

And yes, while it's true there will always be a maximum optimized composition, I think there will be enough midcore groups out there to tackle content with any composition they desire as long as it's clear they have the chance to clear it.

To me the largest detriment to taking a WHM right now is that it's too similar to AST (or rather, AST's kit was made to mimic WHM's kit far too well) and thus without any defining trait, WHM gets left in the dust for a clearly superior choice.

My own thought is making WHM healing so powerful that you either go 2 Tank / 5 DPS / WHM or 2 Tank / 4 DPS / AST + SCH though some of the ideas mentioned in another thread are suitable to me too - someone mentioned each tier of Aero providing a different debuff that increase specific damage types which I like a lot too.

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Originally Posted by Miste

That's fine. I admit I shouldn't have used the word never it was incorrect. Only SE can say whether or not WHMs are not being allowed into groups enough because they are the only ones with the statistics. In my experience I've never seen it happen and while it is possible it happens sometimes nerfing AST healing potency isn't the way to fix it. You don't need to crap on AST to fix WHM.

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Fair enough. I also didn't intend to apply FFlogs is the end all be all. Just something to glance at to notice potential trends. Our experiences likely differ because of our datacenters. I hear Primal is much less min/maxed focused. Aether... is, xD

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Originally Posted by Miste

Why should one healer have a harder time healing than the others though?

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To properly compensate for the utility they bring. If healers were balanced in such a way, you are then making a choice between higher overall damage while putting greater pressure on your DPS and tanks to perform well over a safer raid with comparably less damage. The former allows easier mechanic skips whereas the latter better ensures you survive. At the moment, it boils down to "which two healers work the best together."

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Originally Posted by Miste

It seems like they are planning to change WAR from what SE said recently about it. So they actually seem to be heading into homogenization whether certain people like it or not.

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While changes hopefully make PLD/DRK a more viable comp, it would be entirely boring design if all three tanks performed nearly identically. The issue currently isn't Warrior being the superior OT but that it has literally no drawbacks. If I recall, the devs even admitted liking the idea Paladin is better suited for psychical based fights whereas Dark Knight favours magic. If that philosophy were applied to healers, it might play out as noted above.

The supposed idea between each healer's identity is:

White Mage: Raw healing; high base damage; poor MP sustainability
Scholar: Phenomenal sustainability; strong support mitigation; weaker base damage and healing
Astro: Excellent utility; balanced everything else

If all three healers are homogenized, it more or less becomes "what animations do you like better?" I'm not saying it wouldn't work. I, personally, would find it boring though.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

My own thought is making WHM healing so powerful that you either go 2 Tank / 5 DPS / WHM

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I definitely won't ever agree with your ideas then :x

That's a terrible idea. It completely removes a healer slot because WHM healing is so powerful? You aren't serious with this right? :/

You think AST is broken right now cause of Balance Cards? All groups will go the 5 DPS route since it adds far more DPS than any other composition.

So after this you might as well delete SCH and AST from the game and change the game party composition to 2 tanks, 5 dps, and 1 healer for all content.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

My own thought is making WHM healing so powerful that you either go 2 Tank / 5 DPS / WHM

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No, no, no. Now I'm with Miste on this one. We have seen exactly what happens when you design content where one of the roles isn't necessary. Zurvan EX is a mess because the off tank has nothing to do, thus people omit them for an extra DPS and expect to skip Soar. If White Mage could solo heal content, you'd have no reason whatsoever to ever bring another healer since they couldn't possibly contribute what a dedicated fifth DPS would. If they happened, I guarantee even casual raiders would push for White Mage only groups.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I definitely won't ever agree with your ideas then :x

That's a terrible idea. It completely removes a healer slot because WHM healing is so powerful? You aren't serious with this right? :/

You think AST is broken right now cause of Balance Cards? All groups will go the 5 DPS route since it adds far more DPS than any other composition.

So after this you might as well delete SCH and AST from the game and change the game party composition to 2 tanks, 5 dps, and 1 healer for all content.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No, no, no. Now I'm with Miste on this one. We have seen exactly what happens when you design content where one of the roles isn't necessary. Zurvan EX is a mess because the off tank has nothing to do, thus people omit them for an extra DPS and expect to skip Soar. If White Mage could solo heal content, you'd have no reason whatsoever to ever bring another healer since they couldn't possibly contribute what a dedicated fifth DPS would. If they happened, I guarantee even casual raiders would push for White Mage only groups.

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That's fine~ Everyone is entitled to their opinion after all :) While it is a personal wish I also don't foresee it happening either because having consistent design constraints means it's easier to design content too. Building and enforcing a 2/2/4 setup as best as possible will mean overall better content with less balance issues too.

Healer Balance feels completely out of whack at this time and we're so close to an expansion that I'm curious to see what S-E will do. Unfortunately my expectations are fairly low given how badly I feel they've botched the AST file. :/

[EDIT] And yes, my request is perfectly serious - but I can also appreciate the balance required to maintain this would be fairly like balancing on a razor's edge. Effectively SCH + AST combination would have to be able to output enough utility and DPS to match a fifth DPS and a WHM would essentially be contributing 0 additional DPS while maintaining party health in a raid scenario. While it would be possible to remotely balance this in a savage raid tier, balancing it for more casual content (24-player and 4-player DFs) would be all but impossible. Even if it were balanced in a 8-player savage scenario, one small shift in a direction would probably throw that out entirely.

I don't see my own desires reaching fruition but I don't mind dreaming and expressing it either :)

With all this talk about healers only wanting to heal I sure wish they heal more in pvp.

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Originally Posted by Daisy

Idk I always found this pretty simple. If my healer does dps, I dodge all AoE. If they don't dps, I stay in AoE as long as it won't kill me. This way I do a bit more damage and healer has something to do. If the healer doesn't want to dps AND wants you to dodge, they are lazy and should probably just kick em.

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Brilliant. I must keep this in mind when I am tanking. Have my vote!

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Because that one healer offers more than the other that ONLY heals.

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My comment was ONLY about healing potency not the combination of healing potency and utility. No healer should have a harder time at their primary function.

These are the things I can agree with:
Nerf ASTs utility
Buff WHMs utility (could make it something unique to WHM I am sure SOMETHING can be created)

These are things I will not ever agree with:
Nerfing any healer's healing potency to be weaker than the other healers.

You'll NEVER change my mind so honestly no point in continuing which is why I stopped replying to you.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The former allows easier mechanic skips whereas the latter better ensures you survive.

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Which means you will only see ASTs in the top tier/hardcore skilled player groups. Anyone who wants to play an AST in midcore arena will likely be left out.

Midcore/Average players will almost always take survivability instead of risky heals. Most players except the top tier will always take the easiest and safest way to a clear because speed/DPS numbers don't usually matter to them as long as clearing is possible; and mechanic skipping isn't even a viable option for most midcore groups even with AST buffs. There are full i270 groups with an AST in the party that still can't skip mechanics in A11S.

Zurvan EX is a good example of how the community's mind works. Skipping soar is safer so they almost always try to do that method. Tank LBing second soar is safer so even though they could do more damage to the boss they just LB that instead to survive. WAR's get locked out of parties because the safest and easiest way to a clear is to solo tank and WAR cannot survive demon claw while DRK/PLD can.

It is very easy to find reasons to ostracize a specific job if they cannot do something which increases clear chances and while I understand this also applies to WHM lack of utility I agree with adding utility to WHM to remove that issue.

In general I don't agree with anything that lowers any healer's healing potency. To me it is imbalanced and will cause rifts in the community because people don't like risk and people will start locking certain healers out of the groups just like what happened with AST at 3.0 because of their weak heals.

So we might as well agree to disagree because I have my own logic set already and nothing will be changing it unless SE can show me it will somehow work.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

My own thought is making WHM healing so powerful that you either go 2 Tank / 5 DPS / WHM

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What? No. No no no that would be terrible. The goal is to make healers balanced while giving WHM and AST both unique identities.

This however, is just breaking the balance amongst healers. NO ONE is asking for WHM to be so powerful of a healer that it let's you bring a 5th DPS. That is the very definition of broken and unbalanced.

Dpsing as a healer is almost natural for me.I only tank and heal and I even enjoyed stance dancing on my warrior main,back then when the job was inferior to pld and a lot of ppl did not want a warrior in raids.It was also a lot harder stance dancing than healer imo.Cleared all the raid tiers up to gordias when my static disbanded and I took a break.I decided to give Astro a shot and switched to main heal when I came back just to test and challenge myself and I sticked to heal till today.I found healing easier the more in dept knowledge I have of tanking.:)

So for me these to roles are bonded together and I learn to adapt and analyze what both jobs are capable of,knowing tank cd rotation in every detail allows to micromanage and adapt own healer skills.Knowing your tanks abilities and calculating the order is pretty crucial to healer dps.A good tank knows how to play to give the heal time to blast out dps, a good symbiosis is fundamental for solo healing/tanking.Is dpsing fun? Yep.Would I be upset if SE removes the DPS meta?Nope. Dpsing alone does not give me the kick,that's why I will mever play dd.I rather stick to the core duty.

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Originally Posted by Daisy

Idk I always found this pretty simple. If my healer does dps, I dodge all AoE. If they don't dps, I stay in AoE as long as it won't kill me. This way I do a bit more damage and healer has something to do. If the healer doesn't want to dps AND wants you to dodge, they are lazy and should probably just kick em.

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Yep that's how i tank. Spamming cure for no reason? Allow me to stand in stuff and not use cds. Ooooh i should raw intuition and turn around next time

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Originally Posted by Daisy

Idk I always found this pretty simple. If my healer does dps, I dodge all AoE. If they don't dps, I stay in AoE as long as it won't kill me. This way I do a bit more damage and healer has something to do. If the healer doesn't want to dps AND wants you to dodge, they are lazy and should probably just kick em.

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You should be careful about that. I may not DPS right off the bat if I'm unsure how much damage the tank will take and if you start standing in AOE, I'm not going to DPS ever because I can't trust you not to die like a derp.

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Originally Posted by Daisy

Idk I always found this pretty simple. If my healer does dps, I dodge all AoE. If they don't dps, I stay in AoE as long as it won't kill me. This way I do a bit more damage and healer has something to do. If the healer doesn't want to dps AND wants you to dodge, they are lazy and should probably just kick em.

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So instead of playing the game and focusing on you role , you decide to be as inconvenient as possible to your group!

Thats really great from you ;) Im so proud of you , and all of the rest that thinks like that :P

Ur are really a great addition to the community :P

not :P

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Originally Posted by Miste

My comment was ONLY about healing potency not the combination of healing potency and utility. No healer should have a harder time at their primary function.

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You can never take just healing potency into consideration. You have to look at the entire kit when discussing balance.

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These are the things I can agree with:
Nerf ASTs utility
Buff WHMs utility (could make it something unique to WHM I am sure SOMETHING can be created)

These are things I will not ever agree with:
Nerfing any healer's healing potency to be weaker than the other healers.

You'll NEVER change my mind so honestly no point in continuing which is why I stopped replying to you.

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It's not like I don't get your point. All healers should be able to do their job, which is healing, equally. I get that. But when you add extra stuff on top of this requirement, you have to take into consideration what the other healer has to compete with the extra utility. Giving all healers the same potencies and same utility is going to lead to homogenization and make healers extremely boring to play, and I don't think anyone wants that.

Instead, giving them unique strengths that are different but still balanced would make all the healers feel fresh and give them all an identity.
Perhaps WHM can move away from a pure healer identity and go for something else. I remember someone talking about giving them spells that can lower damage from aoes, or spells that can reflect damage. Or even just giving them more spells like Assize, that works to deal damage AND heal/cleanse. Anything is better than just throwing them similar utility to AST and having them both play the same.

But, I think we have hit a wall in our opinions. All we can really do is wait and see what happens.
I only hope that SE doesn't opt to just make all the healers the same with different animations, it would eventually force me out of the healer role.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

look at gordias and skip soar.... that just made people want healers (and tanks) to dps more.

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Gordias was basically the devs turning some knobs higher and changing nothing else. I'm talking about a combination of higher tank damage (meaning tank DPS hits a ceiling due to having to full-time Defiance/Shield Oath/Grit), MP constraints (meaning healers will have to learn to measure how much they cast so that they don't waste MP; this would incidentally mean nerfing or altering MP regeneration so that the name of the game becomes "kill this thing without dying and before the healers run out of MP"), possibly nerfed heals (meaning because you're healing for less per cast heal, you have to cast more heals to bring someone back to full HP; a bonus side effect is that other players in the group will have to learn to minimize their damage taken so that they don't waste healer MP or GCDs) and the inclusion of other healer duties (status removal is something that rarely comes into play for some reason, despite being a no brainer).

You can also force it via mechanics, which can go the way of buffs from using certain skills outside of Cleric Stance (ex: Aero granting a WHM with a 15% increase to Spell Speed while Aero's DoT effect is active on a mob, but the effect is instantly cancelled if you switch into Cleric Stance) or going ham the way Revelation Online's healer class has, where casting consecutive heals make their overall healing more powerful but they lose the bonuses if they start using damage skills.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Midcore/Average players will almost always take survivability instead of risky heals. Most players except the top tier will always take the easiest and safest way to a clear because speed/DPS numbers don't usually matter to them as long as clearing is possible; and mechanic skipping isn't even a viable option for most midcore groups even with AST buffs. There are full i270 groups with an AST in the party that still can't skip mechanics in A11S.

Zurvan EX is a good example of how the community's mind works. Skipping soar is safer so they almost always try to do that method. Tank LBing second soar is safer so even though they could do more damage to the boss they just LB that instead to survive. WAR's get locked out of parties because the safest and easiest way to a clear is to solo tank and WAR cannot survive demon claw while DRK/PLD can.

It is very easy to find reasons to ostracize a specific job if they cannot do something which increases clear chances and while I understand this also applies to WHM lack of utility I agree with adding utility to WHM to remove that issue.

In general I don't agree with anything that lowers any healer's healing potency. To me it is imbalanced and will cause rifts in the community because people don't like risk and people will start locking certain healers out of the groups just like what happened with AST at 3.0 because of their weak heals.

So we might as well agree to disagree because I have my own logic set already and nothing will be changing it unless SE can show me it will somehow work.

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Given the push towards higher DPS, I have to wonder if survivability would pull ahead. Perhaps we classify midcore groups differently since what I would attribute to midcore is pushing mechanics and high DPS whereas hardcore is dedicated to the current meta, speed killing and world prog.

In any case, we likely won't agree. Nonetheless, I do appreciate the back and forth o different perspectives. :)

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

So instead of playing the game and focusing on you role , you decide to be as inconvenient as possible to your group!

Thats really great from you ;) Im so proud of you , and all of the rest that thinks like that :P

Ur are really a great addition to the community :P

not :P

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and standing around not dpsing because "its nurt meh jerb" is just as bad.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

I physically cringe when I see a bunch of healers standing around doing nothing, or even worse, using various AoE healing abilities during the Life Gate DPS check during Dun Scaith. I make a point of /a'ing: "Isn't it amazing how there is literally 0 damage during this phase? It's almost like everyone has time to switch to their DPS stance! :o"

It's not about "every healer HAS to DPS", it's about respect. Queueing for multiplayer, team oriented content, and sitting there doing the absolute bare minimum, and this goes the 1 button DPS players too, is disrespectful to everyone else in that party.

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For what it's worth, when I SCH Dun Scaith I use that time to get Stoneskin back up on everyone, prepping for the moves I know are coming. Having time to set up shields makes the next phase a little easier.

Granted, then I go back to DPSing, but still.

WHM being solo healer and AST + SCH forced to run together if they want to match the healing capabilities of WHM for content (not counting 4 man dungeons) wouldn't be such an unbalanced idea. As long as AST + SCH would be able to heal the same as solo WHM and provide the same utility/support/DPS as a 5th DPS. In a Meta with 3 healers and 2 healing spots it's probably one of the best ideas to solve the problem. Not the best, but not such a crazy one.

MOREOVER, it would solve the problem with people wanting/not wanting to DPS as healer.

WHM -> For people who don't want to DPS and focus healing (and maybe provide some utility?)
SCH + AST -> For people that want to heal and do something else rather than healing.

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Originally Posted by Taika

What are you even trying to say? Your post doesn't make any sense.

Players are always expecting everyone to play their jobs the way they're meant to be played - no matter what job. It's about the most efficient way of playing a job. The way they're meant to be played is based on the current meta, which again is based on the game design: the available abilities, the battle design etc. In current meta, healers are expected to heal and DPS, tanks are expected to switch between tank and DPS stance, DDs are expected to use certain rotations to maximise their efficiency etc.

The requirement is the same for every player and it doesn't depend on your job: use your abilities in a way that's as efficient as possible in any given situation.

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one reply to this, guess the attack dogs are taking the day off..

Honestly, healers just cannot win when it comes to this dps debate. At least not until and unless, SE changes either healer jobs or game design, to solve it one way or another. It doesn't matter whether you only heal, play according to the meta, or whatever combination of healing/dpsing that is most comfortable for you; There are always going to be people who will jump on you for it.

Just play however you wish. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. I don't know about anyone else, but playing in a particular way simply because a so-called majority thinks you should? That's not fun. And for me personally, at least when it comes to content that I don't overgear/overlevel, or am not that familiar with; either at all, or as healer, trying to dps as much or more than I heal, just turns me into a bundle of nerves. And that in turn makes it far more likely that I'll mess up, and even worse, turns the whole dungeon into a tense, fun sucking chore.

That's not to say that I never dps. Nor is there ever an instance where I do nothing but heal. Neither do I overheal. At least not my definition of overhealing. To me, overhealing is casting a heal that would take the target above %100, and thus wasting mana and needlessly generating enmity. However, it seems some people think that anything that takes them away from their precious dps time = overhealing. To which I have to wonder; if you're so into dps, why do you even play a healer?

Sorry, but these phrases: "Heal as little as possible", "Have to heal", and "forced to heal" are completely counter to the primary role of a healer. And it's just disgusting to me that so many players think that healers healing is a Bad thing. Even worse are those spiteful people who deliberately go out of thier way to make the healers job difficult out of some assumption that they are being lazy. Do you people even bother to communicate? Or do you just assume that because they aren't playing the way You think they should, that they're lazy?

Obviously, I don't support people who actually stand around doing nothing, or jump around emoting and generally being obnoxious. But seriously, enough with this nitpicky, judgemental, my way or else attitude. Much as some of you would like to, you actually can't force the entire player base to play your way. You don't want to play with the baddies? You have a votekick button. You also have the ability to run with pre-mades. There you go, problem solved. No more badddies in your precious elite groups.


TLDR - Play how you want. Nitpicky, judgy people will hate on you no matter what anyway. Might as well have some fun.

Raven_Darkstar

To true..

To be honest, I don't actually see people wigging out in duties over healer DPS as much as the forums like to wig out about it. I encounter a fair share of non-DPSing cohealers in 8-man content and I DGAF and just let them do their thing. I encounter aggressive DPSers who barely contribute to healing less than that, but even then I pretty much don't wig out over that, either - I just adapt to whatever my partner is doing at the time and roll with it.

I'm passionate about it here because this is an avenue for feedback, and I like to let the devs know that while I'm not berating my fellow DFers over it, I dislike current healing design and I'd like for it to change. But I don't want to give the impression that I'm someone who routinely tells others how to play unless it's clear we're not going to be able to clear the content without them making adjustments in some way.